How much stronger would the fighter get if it had this class feature?

[qwertyu63]

I am working on a fighter fix (as some of you may know from the last time I made a thread like this). Well, this is a class feature I am working on for them. I am aware the balance of some of the tricks could be re-worked, but as a whole, how well does the idea work?

Fighter's Tricks (Ex):
The fighter is the best at what they do, and as it happens what they do is fighting. So, naturally, they often devise a new way to use an old favorite. The fighter gains access to a range of special abilities. Every class of weapon and armor has two special abilities; some of these abilities are passive in nature, while others must be activated. Fighters of any level can use the first special ability of each class whenever they have a weapon or armor of that class held/equipped.

Higher level fighters can devise more powerful tricks. At level 4 and every 3 levels after, the fighter chooses a class of weapon/armor. They gain access to the second ability of that class of weapon/armor.

The classes of weapons and armor (with examples) are as follows:

Edged weapons: Dagger, short sword, longsword, greatsword.
Wedged weapons: Handaxe, battleaxe, greataxe.
Blunt weapons: Light mace, club, heavy mace, quarterstaff, hammer.
Pointed weapons: Shortspear, longspear, javelin, lance.
Projectile weapons: Sling, crossbow, shortbow, longbow.
Shields: Shield, buckler, tower shield.
Light armor: Padded armor, leather armor, chain shirt.
Medium armor: Hide armor, scale mail, chain mail, breastplate.
Heavy armor: Splint mail, banded mail, full plate.

Tricks:
Edged weapons:
First ability: Razor Wind- You can, as a standard action, make a melee attack with an edged weapon from up to 10 feet/fighter level away.
Second ability: Rift Slash- You can, as a move action, teleport up to 10 feet/fighter level.

Wedged weapons:
First ability: You gain the benefit of the first feat in this list that you don't have: Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave. You do not need to qualify for the feat; if you have all listed feats, you get a +1 to attack and damage rolls.
Second ability: Cleave Magic- You can, as a standard action, create the effect of a Dispel Magic spell, using your fighter level as your caster level. You may not choose the area dispel effect.

Blunt weapons:
First ability: Increase the damage dealt by the blunt weapon as if it were designed for a creature one size category larger than you.
Second ability: Stunning Strike- You can, as a standard action, make a special melee attack with a blunt weapon. If the attack hits, the target is stunned until the end of your next turn (Fort save negates, DC 14+the fighters Con modifier). Once you use this ability, you may not use it again for 5 rounds.

Pointed weapons:
First ability: Point Rally- You can, as a standard action, make a special melee attack with a pointed weapon. If the attack hits, all creatures get a +1 on attack and damage rolls made to attack the target for 3 rounds (the target still takes the damage of the attack).
Second ability: Attacks made with pointed weapons ignore DR that is based on alignments or materials.

Ranged weapons:
First ability: You do not need to keep track of mundane ammunition; instead assume you always have enough.
Second ability: If you have a ranged weapon ready, you threaten all spaces within 30 feet.

Shields:
First ability: Greater Bash- When you hit a creature with a shield bash, you can knock that creature backward up to 10 feet (the distance is up to you),
Second ability: Planar Guard- You can, as a standard action, make a special melee attack with a shield. If the attack hits and the target is an extraplanar creature, the target is forced to its native plane (the target still takes the damage of the attack).

Light armor:
First ability: Your base land speed increases by +10 feet, and you gain a +1 dodge bonus to AC.
Second ability: You gain a jump speed of 30 feet, and you gain a +1 dodge bonus to AC (stacking with the one from the first ability).

Medium armor:
First ability: Second Wind- You can, as an immediate action, heal yourself (2*your hit dice) hit points. If you use this ability immediately after you takes damage, the healing effectively prevents the damage. For example, if you had just been killed due to falling below -10 HP, this spell can stop you from dying. This ability can be used once per day.
Second ability: You may use Second Wind 3 times per day, and each use heals (4*your hit dice).

Heavy armor:
First ability: Block Attack- You can, as a swift action, force an attack targeted at a creature within 5 feet of you to target you instead.
Second ability: You can use Block Attack as a free action, but only twice per turn (you can still use it a third time as a swift action).

Jump Speed:
As a move action you may jump up to your jump speed in any direction. As a double move action you may jump up to 2x your jump speed. You may also take the run action while jumping which is base speed x4 (x5 with run feat). Unlike most jumping, this does not require a running start. You may choose to jump less than the full distance allowed to you, if you wish.

You can make these jumps off of any surface (walls, floors, ceilings, trees, other creatures up there, etc). As a full round action, you may jump up to your jump speed in any direction without any support at all, but you take 1 point of non-lethal damage for doing this.

Furthermore, if you are in freefall, you may choose to fall half the speed you would fall. Making this choice is a free action, and lasts until you hit the ground or jump again. This slowdown, in addition to slowing your fall to control your location, cuts any falling damage you would take from that fall in half.

This overrides the normal rules for jumping.

[Loek]

Haven't read them all yet (I need sleep... bad!). But they look nice.

However, I'd say there are 2 problems with em:


Use at will (when using said equipment)

Some of these are quite useful, for example the edged weapons dimension door like ability. So much so that I think having them at will might be a bit much (especially as (Ex)).

My suggestion, make them either have a cool down or X uses per day (mostly for the secondary abilities).


Amount of tricks mastered (And for the rest basics known)

A level 19 fighter (Yea... that happens outside of bare minimum campaigns...) would know 6 out of 9 of the secondary abilities and 9 out of 9 of the basic ones. A bit too much in my opinion. Instead, I'd say limit it somewhat.

My suggestion: start with 4 basic tricks, learn 1 at 4th and every 4 levels after (for all 9 at level 20). Learn a secondary way slower... 6, 12, 18? or something like that.


But beyond that, I like the idea quite a bit.

[SchulzR]

In order to avoid tarnishing the "flavor" of a Fighter, I think this may belong in a Fighter-specific prestige class which gives them these abilities as spell-like abilities.

[redwizard007]

Love the concept but I feel most of the second tier abilities can come to early and that use-at-will over powers things. Mind you, I realize the point is to kick the fighter up a couple tiers but the levels suggested by the poster before me seem more viable.

Edged- first ability- is this throwing the weapon or does my arm just get longer? I'm not feeling it.
- second ability- work in a cool down or limit the ability to happen only when you critical hit.
This is the only movement ability for weapons, that seems like it doesn't fit. Why not roll edged weapons into wedge?

Wedged- first ability - good
- second ability - work in a cool down or limit the ability to happen only when you critical hit.
Chopping through magical defenses...

Blunt- nice on both
Cool ability and flavor

Pointed- first ability- what kind of bonus? Can this be cumulative with multiple uses? (say circumstance and no)
- second ability- to situation specific. What about just lowering DR by a certain number?
I'm picturing a phalanx of pikemen. was that your intention?

Ranged- first ability- i just really don't like the way it feels. How about allowing/improving using combat maneuvers for missile weapons (bullrush/trip/disarm/etc.)
- second ability- love it
Did you just make archers cool?

Shields- first ability- cool
- second ability- nope. It should be the ability to intercept attacks that you gave heavy armor.
this just feels right

Light Armor- first ability- cool
- second ability- neat but limit it to 1 round of movement 3/day
Light armor = movement. cool

Med Armor- first ability- eh. OK-ish... lets drop the healing though and then treat medium armor as light armor (foster rogue crossovers)
- second ability- a charge enhancement for barbarians or lancers would work nicely here but my brain is seizing up...
Medium armor = part mobility, part combat. no healing

Heavy armor- This should either be about DR and immunities or you could work in a Power attack based on sacraficing AC bonus rather than BAB.
heavy armor = slug it out.


Personally I feel like this would add some cohesion to the abilities and help the over all flavor considerably.

[tarkisflux]

As a whole and on its own, the idea seems to play off of the existing fighter single weapon selection fetish (because feat selection requirements) to restrict them to a single weapon and armor category. They were already doing that anyway so it's not a big deal, but it's not a big powerup or big utility thing as a result. It is a power up though (particularly the edge weapons abilites and ranged thread option, which are potentially a big combat deal because of movement and huge AoOs respectively), but I have no idea how well it works because I don't have any goals or context by which to judge it. Can't say how well something works without knowing what it was aiming for.

[qwertyu63]

Love the concept but I feel most of the second tier abilities can come to early and that use-at-will over powers things. Mind you, I realize the point is to kick the fighter up a couple tiers but the levels suggested by the poster before me seem more viable.

The levels I chose to give the greater abilities is basically random. My files still say "At level X and every Y levels after,"


Edged- first ability- is this throwing the weapon or does my arm just get longer? I'm not feeling it.
- second ability- work in a cool down or limit the ability to happen only when you critical hit.
This is the only movement ability for weapons, that seems like it doesn't fit. Why not roll edged weapons into wedge?

For the first ability, think razor wind (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RazorWind)/sword beams (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SwordBeam).

That said, I think I'll push razor wind to the second tier, and make up something new for the first tier.


Wedged- first ability - good
- second ability - work in a cool down or limit the ability to happen only when you critical hit.
Chopping through magical defenses...

I'll add a cooldown (Once you use this ability, you may not use it again for 5 rounds).


Blunt- nice on both
Cool ability and flavor

Cool


Pointed- first ability- what kind of bonus? Can this be cumulative with multiple uses? (say circumstance and no)
- second ability- to situation specific. What about just lowering DR by a certain number?
I'm picturing a phalanx of pikemen. was that your intention?

Untyped and no.
Eh, I didn't really plan that, but it works.


Ranged- first ability- i just really don't like the way it feels. How about allowing/improving using combat maneuvers for missile weapons (bullrush/trip/disarm/etc.)
- second ability- love it
Did you just make archers cool?

Excuse me while I try to figure out how you bullrush someone with a bow. I like the idea, I'm just trying to picture it in my head.


Shields- first ability- cool
- second ability- nope. It should be the ability to intercept attacks that you gave heavy armor.
this just feels right

So shift the blocking power to this? K.


Light Armor- first ability- cool
- second ability- neat but limit it to 1 round of movement 3/day
Light armor = movement. cool

I'd actually rather allow them the super jumping more often and longer than that. The wizard can fly, damn it; let's let the fighter fight them up there.


Med Armor- first ability- eh. OK-ish... lets drop the healing though and then treat medium armor as light armor (foster rogue crossovers)
- second ability- a charge enhancement for barbarians or lancers would work nicely here but my brain is seizing up...
Medium armor = part mobility, part combat. no healing

Huh, I'll have to think on this on.


Heavy armor- This should either be about DR and immunities or you could work in a Power attack based on sacraficing AC bonus rather than BAB.
heavy armor = slug it out.

So replace the blocking we are moving with DR? Sounds cool.


As a whole and on its own, the idea seems to play off of the existing fighter single weapon selection fetish (because feat selection requirements) to restrict them to a single weapon and armor category. They were already doing that anyway so it's not a big deal, but it's not a big powerup or big utility thing as a result. It is a power up though (particularly the edge weapons abilites and ranged thread option, which are potentially a big combat deal because of movement and huge AoOs respectively), but I have no idea how well it works because I don't have any goals or context by which to judge it. Can't say how well something works without knowing what it was aiming for.

Actually, some of what I am planning is intended to allow them to change their specialty (e.g. switch their focus feats) with minimal cost (e.g. their weapons don't need to be magic, as the fighter makes them more powerful just using them). So, they can switch which powers they have by changing gear. The goal is to bring the fighter to tier 3.

[redwizard007]

Excuse me while I try to figure out how you bullrush someone with a bow. I like the idea, I'm just trying to picture it in my head.

I had pictured a warrior stumbling backwards under a barrage of arrows... might be a stretch. Disarm, trip and sunder could all work without much tweaking, but the other special attacks would be difficult to pull off.



For the first ability, think razor wind/sword beams.
Anime roots... and you questioned bullrush with arrows? I'm starting to feel that they might both fit thematically. Also the endless ammunition fits better with this kind of character (still not as cool as ranged bullrushes though.)



The goal is to bring the fighter to tier 3.


Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with.

This is from a quick search to set my sights... I think you are leaning to a high T4. Outside of the specific combat type these fighters are optimized for they will still have lots of thumb twiddling. Its true that you are slightly increasing versatility but I dont think its enough to bump them to T#3.

Adding more versatility to the fighter would be a better way to climb up to T3. More diverse skills and skill points, movement abilities (keep teleport and jump as written originally,) Su/Sp abilities to make foes engage or flee. Most of what you are doing here is just enhancing combat, something the fighter can already be pretty darn good at.

Sooooo. Do you just want the fighter to be a cooler fighter or do you really want him to be more involved in non combat activities like problem solving, interpersonal interaction, overcoming difficult terrain, master of skill challenges, etc. My personal opinion is that the fighter as written is lovely in a hack and slash dungeon crawl. You have already made him equally fun in open combat encounters with current tweaks. When its not time for a fight he can order the pizza. Remember, T1/T2 classes are really only better than T3/T4 classes when played correctly. If your wizard constantly casts fireball then there is no reason to worry about bringing the fighter up a tier.

[qwertyu63]

I had pictured a warrior stumbling backwards under a barrage of arrows... might be a stretch. Disarm, trip and sunder could all work without much tweaking, but the other special attacks would be difficult to pull off.

Anime roots... and you questioned bullrush with arrows? I'm starting to feel that they might both fit thematically. Also the endless ammunition fits better with this kind of character (still not as cool as ranged bullrushes though.)

I'm rather set on the ranged special attacks now, I'm just mentally working on the wording.


This is from a quick search to set my sights... I think you are leaning to a high T4. Outside of the specific combat type these fighters are optimized for they will still have lots of thumb twiddling. Its true that you are slightly increasing versatility but I dont think its enough to bump them to T#3.

Adding more versatility to the fighter would be a better way to climb up to T3. More diverse skills and skill points, movement abilities (keep teleport and jump as written originally,) Su/Sp abilities to make foes engage or flee. Most of what you are doing here is just enhancing combat, something the fighter can already be pretty darn good at.

Eh, I'm aiming for tier 3; if I miss and land in high tier 4, c'est la vie.

I am infact intending on bumping them up to 4+int points and adding a few more useful skills to the list (including a new skill about making plans and tactics, allowing them to set a contingency and grant their team skill and combat bonuses when and if that contingency hits).


Sooooo. Do you just want the fighter to be a cooler fighter or do you really want him to be more involved in non combat activities like problem solving, interpersonal interaction, overcoming difficult terrain, master of skill challenges, etc. My personal opinion is that the fighter as written is lovely in a hack and slash dungeon crawl. You have already made him equally fun in open combat encounters with current tweaks. When its not time for a fight he can order the pizza. Remember, T1/T2 classes are really only better than T3/T4 classes when played correctly. If your wizard constantly casts fireball then there is no reason to worry about bringing the fighter up a tier.

My goal is to give the fighter more interesting things to do in combat, while also giving them something to do out of combat. This feature is all about the former, but I am working on the latter.

[redwizard007]

Sounds like you nailed it. Repost when you finalize things. I'd love to see the final product. Meanwhile I might tinker with a prestige class with similar concepts.

[tarkisflux]

By way of second opinion to redwizard007, I'd say that you could afford to be a bit more generous with many of these abilities, or at least scale them up with level a bit. The general case seems to be that stuff is pretty solid for fighters in the 1-12ish game, but there's not much new stuff for them after that. You might still hit your tier goals anyway, it's just a weird late game dropoff. Blunt 2 is a good example of what I mean. It uses a standard action to stun a guy for 1 round with a mostly fixed DC that will be outpaced by saves over time. It's reasonably good when you get it maybe (I think the 5 round wait is rather harsh for a 1 round stun, but meh), it just seems to fall out as time passes.
Specific concerns -

Very few of these interact with full attack actions. Intentional? And if so, do you have other relevant tweaks for that?

Wedged 2 calls out dispel magic, which caps the CL bonus at +10. Not sure if you want that cap there as well or not (and if you do, it won't trigger often enough at high levels to be worth keeping the cooldown IMO).

Blunt 1 seems like a worse version of Wedged 1. It doesn't give you any new options and just goes straight to the bonus damage bits (which you can stack into big things, but you can do that with Wedged 1 eventually too). If you want to keep with the hitting like a larger creature thing, maybe allow them to reduce size category modifiers when doing combat maneuvers on larger creatures? Blunt 2 was discussed above.

Are shields a weapon or armor category for selection purposes? I think you mean them to be armors, but their powers are all offensive weapon like things. Seems slated for change already though, just wanted to point it out. You could probably have both if you wanted, since the feat investment for offensive shield to mean anything is already a big reason not to try.

[1pwny]

Could we stop with the fighter "fixes"? There are SO MANY threads about fighter fixes... while I love the fact that people are fixing the Fighter (because I love the class, and think it needs a rework), there are just SO MANY already out there, that its getting kind of ridiculous. I found a few, just to show you guys.
Class Feature Compendium...thing? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?333151-Fighter-Fix-Class-Feature-Compendium-(50-features))
Stuff (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?272322-Yet-Another-Fighter-Fix-PEACH)
More Stuff 1 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?255706-The-might-of-the-weapons-The-Reworked-Fighter-PEACH)
More Stuff 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?248189-Rehauling-the-fighter-(PF))
More Stuff 3 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?241661-PF-Fighter-Revision-PEACH-(We-Can-Never-Have-Enough-of-Those!))
More Stuff 4 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?202855-3-5-Powered-Up-Fighter-Variant-(PEACH))
More Stuff 5 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?178361-Fighter-Redux-(D-amp-D-3-5))
More Stuff 6 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?35409-Good-Fighter)
Extra Bonus Feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?247272-Fighter-Bonus-Feats-Fix(PEACH-3-5))
House Rules as a Fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?225874-Pathfinder-Fighter-House-Rules)

Okay, i'm already bored of this. Just go here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/search.php?searchid=20354) for a list of threads.

Can we, like, consolidate this? Please? So that every time I go to the "Homebrew" section I don't see another thread titled "A New Fighter Fix!"?