Replacing the Cleric.

[dascarletm]

Hello everyone. I'm working on a campaign setting that lacks full casters of all kinds. I want to keep the archetypes, but replace the classes. The problem is I'm having trouble with replacing the cleric. At first I thought the Paladin could be a suitable replacement with some minor tweaks (allowing multiple alignments, changing the code to fit one's cause etc.). However, I'm not so sure it would be suitable.

1: Paladins are more combat focused then clerics are, while they do have much overlapping flavor, there is also some missing.

2: The replacements for arcane casters (Warlock, Binder, DFA) all seem much more potent than the paladin, and it leaves those wanting to play a cleric wanting.

PS: point one still stands for crusaders, but it could alleviate point two. Another problem is that all my players have the age old irrational fear of Tome of Battle. :smallmad:


I'm looking to the playground for ideas/advice on any suitable divine classes that are on the order of warlock, binder, and DFA.

Danke.

[John Longarrow]

You mean a class with healing spells on its list like the Bard?

[Asrrin]

Divine Mind, Spirit Shaman, Divine variant Bard, Healer, Ranger.

[Waker]

What exactly is it that the Paladin lacks that you want it to be able to do?
Healing can be addressed by tweaking with Lay On Hands. You could take a note from PF and allow it to remove certain negative conditions, like Sickened and Fatigued. Increasing the range and usage would also go a long way. Perhaps something like each use of LoH heals for LvL X Cha, gaining an additional use of LoH per day every 2 or 3 levels.
Buffing could be adapted from Marshal/Dragon Shaman auras. Say that if a party member is within range they get a bonus to some save or ignore some effect.
Your last refuge is of course to improve the Paladin casting itself. Changing over to Charisma dependent would make the class less MAD. Since it has such a small spell list and spells per day, you could consider giving it the ability to convert spells on the fly, if not outright making it a spontaneous caster.

[dextercorvia]

Take the Beguiler/Warmage/DN chassis (d6HD, spells per day, 2+Int Skills (use the Cleric list))

for Spells Known, let them choose 2 domains at level 1. At level 5, 10, and 15 let them choose another domain. They get the granted ability for each of those domains, and all of the spells added to their spells known.

I would give them Turn Undead, but get rid of Divine Metamagic.

[HammeredWharf]

Shugenja, Divine Bard and Paladin fill the roles of Cleric quite nicely. Shugenja is the wise priest, Divine Bard is the adventurous leader and Paladin is the holy warrior.

[Shining Wrath]

Is Favored Soul OP for what you want?

There's always Adept.

[KorbeltheReader]

I'm considering a t1 and 2 ban like you are, and an idea I'm toying with for the cleric is restricting their casting to domains granted by their deity. Thus a cleric of Torm can cast spells from the Good, Healing, Law, Protection, and Strength domains, and then also pick 2 of those domains for domain ability and bonus spell slot as normal.

Still a full caster, but significantly restricted in versatility. Also this makes deity choice much more important, which I like.

[dascarletm]

Just got out of my lab, time for some replies, and thanks for the input!


You mean a class with healing spells on its list like the Bard?
Kind-of... though not really. Mostly I want a class that fulfills the fluff that the cleric holds, and shows that mechanically. A follower of a deity or other higher power, that also is adept in combat. Mechanically I'm looking for a toned down cleric (power wise), that isn't quite as toned down as the paladin.


Divine Mind, Spirit Shaman, Divine variant Bard, Healer, Ranger.

Divine mind has promise, I hadn't thought to look at the complete psionic (I think that is where that class is). This may be what I use. Out of curiosity, where does this class land in relation to warlocks/binders and DFAs?


What exactly is it that the Paladin lacks that you want it to be able to do?
Healing can be addressed by tweaking with Lay On Hands. You could take a note from PF and allow it to remove certain negative conditions, like Sickened and Fatigued. Increasing the range and usage would also go a long way. Perhaps something like each use of LoH heals for LvL X Cha, gaining an additional use of LoH per day every 2 or 3 levels.
Buffing could be adapted from Marshal/Dragon Shaman auras. Say that if a party member is within range they get a bonus to some save or ignore some effect.
Your last refuge is of course to improve the Paladin casting itself. Changing over to Charisma dependent would make the class less MAD. Since it has such a small spell list and spells per day, you could consider giving it the ability to convert spells on the fly, if not outright making it a spontaneous caster.

That is a good Idea too. My main concern with the paladin was that it wouldn't be casting focused enough, and the setting would then invoke the idea that divine magic is the weakest of the magics mechanically. Though tweaking the class is another strong contender that I was considering as well. I like this idea, perhaps I could add in access to a cleric domain for spell levels 1-4 based on their diety.

Though where would this land in comparison to the other casters I was planning on using? Seems fairly on par, though I've never been one to have a good gauge on these things.


Take the Beguiler/Warmage/DN chassis (d6HD, spells per day, 2+Int Skills (use the Cleric list))

for Spells Known, let them choose 2 domains at level 1. At level 5, 10, and 15 let them choose another domain. They get the granted ability for each of those domains, and all of the spells added to their spells known.

I would give them Turn Undead, but get rid of Divine Metamagic.

This would work if the other styles of magic used this type of base. I like the idea but not for me. thanks though.


Shugenja, Divine Bard and Paladin fill the roles of Cleric quite nicely. Shugenja is the wise priest, Divine Bard is the adventurous leader and Paladin is the holy warrior.

Shugenja has the same problems with above.


Is Favored Soul OP for what you want?

There's always Adept.

I think favored soul is too powerful and the adept i think may be... interesting. I might just consider it.


I'm considering a t1 and 2 ban like you are, and an idea I'm toying with for the cleric is restricting their casting to domains granted by their deity. Thus a cleric of Torm can cast spells from the Good, Healing, Law, Protection, and Strength domains, and then also pick 2 of those domains for domain ability and bonus spell slot as normal.

Still a full caster, but significantly restricted in versatility. Also this makes deity choice much more important, which I like.

I'm not too adverse to versatility. My players have had growing interest in games with lower magic set in more of a dark age.

Thanks everyone.

[Gavinfoxx]

Try Religious Adept or Divine Bard.

[Warlocknthewind]

+1 for divine bard.

I use them in my campaign, and use bard as a "priest" class, and the inspires be from whatever dogma they uphold, and allow them to draw from the cleric list, build remembered as a bard.

Also, bards as a prestige class, cause they're too useful not to exist.

[12owlbears]

Out of curiosity, where does this class land in relation to warlocks/binders and DFAs?

far behind they get 3/4 bab, d8 hd, and they don't get any casting ability till about lv5 I'd go with the ardent(with the life mantle) but I don't know weather they would count as full casters or not.

[Waker]

A lot of people are suggesting Divine Bard, but if that isn't Cleric-y enough for you, you might take a look at my homebrew link in my signature. The Chorister is a priestly bard class that could fulfill a lower-powered divine caster.

[dascarletm]

A lot of people are suggesting Divine Bard, but if that isn't Cleric-y enough for you, you might take a look at my homebrew link in my signature. The Chorister is a priestly bard class that could fulfill a lower-powered divine caster.

It looks interesting, sadly the new forum format has ruined your table, or it is at least broken in my browser.

[FMArthur]

If it's low-magic setting, you don't want a specialized healer class. Make sure your goal will not be to produce a class that focuses on casting but either can't be good at it or winds up with nothing to do when not healing, because those aren't fun.

But my biggest recommendation is to introduce non-magical healing methods. Make bandage items, first aid kits (and make other further-along stuff like field surgeon kits), improved Heal skill (tying the use of those TO the Heal skill might be good). A caster handing out healing spells over and over until everyone is healthy as the normal routine kind of takes away from the feeling of a low-magic setting, but at the same time the game does depend on that healing to happen.

[HammeredWharf]

+1 to FMArthur's suggestion and...


This would work if the other styles of magic used this type of base. I like the idea but not for me.

...what do you mean by "type of base"?

[gorfnab]

Nightstalker from Dragonlance: Races of Ansalon can play the part of a healer. I have heard that Incarnates can heal a decent amount.

[dextercorvia]

+1 to FMArthur's suggestion and...



...what do you mean by "type of base"?

He means if the arcane classes were T3 Vancians it would work, and I agree with him. It's what I get for skimming his post. Unfortunately, what he wants is going to require some homebrew. I would see if someone made a divine version of the Shadowcaster.

[shadow_archmagi]

PS: point one still stands for crusaders, but it could alleviate point two. Another problem is that all my players have the age old irrational fear of Tome of Battle. :smallmad:


Wait, your players are afraid of ToB? Why would a PLAYER ever be afraid of a book?

"Pelor help us! My character is too powerful! This is the nightmare made reality!"

[dascarletm]

If it's low-magic setting, you don't want a specialized healer class. Make sure your goal will not be to produce a class that focuses on casting but either can't be good at it or winds up with nothing to do when not healing, because those aren't fun.

But my biggest recommendation is to introduce non-magical healing methods. Make bandage items, first aid kits (and make other further-along stuff like field surgeon kits), improved Heal skill (tying the use of those TO the Heal skill might be good). A caster handing out healing spells over and over until everyone is healthy as the normal routine kind of takes away from the feeling of a low-magic setting, but at the same time the game does depend on that healing to happen.

Those are some good points. I don't suppose I want a dedicated healer per-say, more of a "caster" that gets his/her power from the divine. The setting is such that mortals need to obtain magic from other powers. The other "casters" do this, but not from the divine: Warlocks from the lower planes, Binders from vestiges, and DFA's from dragons (that is their new fluff anyway). This leaves those who worship the established deities in this setting needing a class that does the same. I could refluff the other classes, but I'd rather use something else. I like the idea of each power source using a different mechanic (though warlocks and DFAs are fairly similar).

Non-magical healing methods are a good idea and I'll probably use them. Likewise, many magic items are going to be refluffed as mundane. I've always thought that +1-5 straight enhancement bonuses could just be varying degrees of craftsmanship. Someone that can go around healing the sick would ruin a dark-ages feel, why would anyone be injured? I think a paladin chassis is good for this.



...what do you mean by "type of base"?
What dextercorvia said. Also, anyone getting full casting, or 9th level spells.


Nightstalker from Dragonlance: Races of Ansalon can play the part of a healer. I have heard that Incarnates can heal a decent amount.

Sadly I don't have that book at my disposal, and Ive still not got around to looking into incarnum. I'll see if I can obtain the former, and will probably need to look at the latter.


Unfortunately, what he wants is going to require some homebrew. I would see if someone made a divine version of the Shadowcaster.

I'm not afraid of homebrew, and a divine version of the Shadowcaster sounds interesting.

EDIT:


Wait, your players are afraid of ToB? Why would a PLAYER ever be afraid of a book?

"Pelor help us! My character is too powerful! This is the nightmare made reality!"

Yes, strange I know.

They call it, "The Tome of OP.":smallmad:

The root of this is, that one of my players and I switch off DMing. When we were first introduced to this book, he swayed everyone's opinion against it. "Unlimited abilities are too strong!"

I've tried to run a campaign with TOB classes replacing the other martial characters, he asked to play a straight fighter. When I said that fighters weren't available.... well we never ended up playing that game.

[dextercorvia]

I'm not afraid of homebrew,

Let me take another stab at a quick fix.

Take the Divine Bard chassis and spell list (of course edit it if there is something distasteful to you).

Remove all Bardic Music except Healing Hymn(CChamp) which he gets at level 1. Grant Turn/Rebuke Undead at level 5, and a Domain added at level 10 and 15.

You can reduce Bardic Music uses to 3+Cha like Turn/Rebuke, and even have them pull from the same pool. You can make it based on Concentration or Knowleged:Religion instead of Perform, if you want to do away entirely with the musical side of things.

[dascarletm]

Let me take another stab at a quick fix.

Take the Divine Bard chassis and spell list (of course edit it if there is something distasteful to you).

Remove all Bardic Music except Healing Hymn(CChamp) which he gets at level 1. Grant Turn/Rebuke Undead at level 5, and a Domain added at level 10 and 15.

You can reduce Bardic Music uses to 3+Cha like Turn/Rebuke, and even have them pull from the same pool. You can make it based on Concentration or Knowleged:Religion instead of Perform, if you want to do away entirely with the musical side of things.

I like it. I will call it The Priest. Perform (sermon) [Or really oratory] seems fitting.

[Telonius]

Complete Champion has the "Touch of Healing" reserve feat. You could modify that to remove the "up to half level" requirement.

One thing you might consider, though - the Cleric spell list is not just about healing hitpoint damage. If you're losing Cleric, Favored Soul, and Druid, Paladin will be the only character who can cast Death Ward and Restoration, and that won't be until 14th level. (He'll get Lesser Restoration at 4th).

EDIT: Divine Bard would also get Restoration at 13th, but (oddly) doesn't get Lesser Restoration at all.

[Waker]

It looks interesting, sadly the new forum format has ruined your table, or it is at least broken in my browser.

Crap, not your browser. The new forum format requires me to go back and redo the whole table. That can wait til another time. Here (http://www.dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Chorister_%283.5e_Class%29) is a link to my page for it on DnD-Wiki, which should have all the relevant information. I believe everything matches up, but in case there is a difference in text between the two, I believe that this forum's version is more recently updated.

[Seerow]

If you're considering Homebrew options, my Paladin may also be of interest to you. It's here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?230019-I-will-protect-those-who-cannot-protect-themselves-D-amp-D3-5). Basically takes what the Paladin already has in game, and cranks the usefulness/access to those things up several notches, without adding too much in the way of new abilities.