Are favored souls really tier 2?

[Kaeso]

If I'm not mistaken, tier 1 is known for being able to do everything, often better than classes who "specialize" in it (eg. the druid can outfight the fighter while still buffing, debuffing, blasting and healing). The cleric, while having a really underwhelming spell list compared to most tier 1 casters, has some tricks up his sleeve that make him worthwhile: Turn Undead (and all its exploitative uses) and domains (which give him neat powers, bonus feats and extra spells he can cast). Spontaneous healing is a plus too.

A favored soul is not merely a spontaneous cleric, like the sorcerer is a spontaneous wizard. He also loses the few things that allowed clerics to keep up with other tier 1's: domains, turn undead and spontaneous healing. In other words, all he's stuck with is a less than impressive spell list (from which he has to cherrypick!) and a single martial weapon proficiency. Furthermore, without Turn Undead he also loses the option to take a lot of good cleric prestige classes. And I almost forgot to add the MAD. A favored soul needs both wisdom and charisma.

Given the above, what makes the favored soul tier 2? Compared to the sorcerer, he is way underpowered. Wouldn't it be more accurate to consider him high tier 3? He would be able to do everything rather decent, but nothing really good. He, for example, can't really outfight the fighter. Sure, he could take the Divine Power route like his older cleric brother, but he has no ways to break the action economy so he's forced to waste an action on it. Furthermore, it only lasts a single combat for him, meaning that the next fight the fighter out-fights him once more unless he wastes another slot on it.

tl;dr: Why is the favored soul tier 2?

[BrokenChord]

What planet did you get your books from? The Cleric has a superior spell list to the Druid; it by no means lacks in that regard. Sure, Turning cheese helps solidify their spot and domains are just nifty, but without these things Cleric does not fall a tier. Druid wouldn't fall a tier if it lost Wild Shape and Animal Companion, either, despite those being very useful features.

Favored Soul is annoyingly MAD, I grant that. But it's cherrypicking from a very nice list. Now, I'd consider it lower on tier 2 than Sorcerer, certainly, but it has the selection of gamebreaking spells without the shifting versatility day to day. Pretty much the definition of T2.

Also, "high T3" would be as if Favored Soul was equivalent to Bard. They both have a decent limit to spells known, and while the Bard list is very good, it's no Cleric list.

[Cloud]

The lose of domains and turning while not great aren't that much of a problem, you can take prestige classes to get those back. Also no one cares about spontaneous cure spells because wands of lesser vigor and the only incombat healing spell worth using (Heal) isn't able to be cast like that.

In any case the Cleric is tier 1 by virtue of its spell list only. The Favoured Soul is tier 2 because it gets to cherry pick from that list. That's about it.

[HammeredWharf]

In my opinion, Wizard > Druid > Cleric spell lists wise, but it's a close call. The Cleric's "less than impressive" spell list includes things like Miracle, Gate, Death Ward, Astral Projection, Holy Word, Heroes' Feast, etc. Favored Souls gets all that, but in limited doses.

[eggynack]

In my opinion, Wizard > Druid > Cleric spell lists wise, but it's a close call.
My general assessment is pretty much this, though druid and cleric may reverse positions if the cleric picks good domains. However, a druid rocking a holt warden/contemplative dip, and thus a full access pass to the spell domain, will likely swap those positions again. Only the first claim is necessary in this case, however.

[nedz]

The most powerful things in 3.5 are spells. FS gets T2 type casting therefore FS is T2.

Obviously I'm counting psionics, et al, as just another type of spell system.

[Techwarrior]

Here's a list of PHB Cleric spells of level 3 and less that completely obviate other characters, whether through doing their job better, or by making them incapable of doing it. This is the reason Cleric is T1, and as Favored Souls get Sorcerer-esque casting off of a T1 list, FvS is indeed T2.

3:
Wind Wall- Making archers hate their life since 5th level
Summon Monster III- Summon Beatstick (3)
Bestow Curse- SoL affecting Will
Blindness/Deafness- SoL affecting Fortitude
Speak with Dead- Gather Information
Create Food/Water- It may not be very dignified, but you don't even need Survival for food now.
Water Breathing- Swim

2:
Hold Person- SoL affecting Will
Spiritual Weapon- Summon Sword
Find Traps- Who needs trapfinding?
Calm Emotions- Minor Diplomacy
Aid- Now who's as good as the Paladin?
Sound Burst- Area Effect SoL affecting Fort
Summon Monster II- Summon Beatstick (2)
Zone of Truth- Sense Motive
Silence- Screw the Bard, and most casters too!
Undetectable Alignment- Did you know this can be done with an Epic Bluff check?
Make Whole- Never Craft again.

1:
Bless- Let's make not just yourself as good as a fighter, let's spread the love to the whole family.
Divine Favor- Bonuses that keep up with the fighter for a good, long while
Endure Elements- Who needs a Ranger to keep us from weather conditions?
Cause Fear- SoL affecting Will
Summon Monster I- Summon Beatstick (1)
Obscuring Mist, Hide from Undead- Who needs Hide skills?
Detect X- I don't need your silly perception skills to avoid ambushes.

0:
Mending- Who needs Craft? Not you.
Read Magic- Spellcraft, smellcraft. I want to know what's on those scrolls.
Create Water- Just for the water it's good. But really, if you can't think of something creative to do with 2 gallons/level you're not trying hard enough.
Purify Food and Drink- You shall never need trail rations or waterskins.

[Person_Man]

Yes, anything with access to 1st through 9th level spells or powers from the Cleric, Druid, Wizard/Sorcerer, or Psion lists is Tier 1 or 2. You have tons of options that can basically reshape reality, and win almost any type of encounter.

[Chronos]

The druid list is more versatile than the cleric list, but it's mostly less powerful. One clue to this is that spells which appear on both lists are mostly a higher level for the druid. I would actually say that a druid stripped of his non-spell features drops down a tier: That's basically what a Spirit Shaman is. Cleric, though, it doesn't make as much difference.

[JBarca]

I would actually say that a druid stripped of his non-spell features drops down a tier: That's basically what a Spirit Shaman is. Cleric, though, it doesn't make as much difference.

It still is a prepared caster, from its whole list, with access to 9ths. As far as I'm aware, that pretty much gets you T1, no questions asked. Losing its class features? Druids still get Shapechange at 9th. They still can SNA (even if it's not Spontaneous). Its class features are nice, but spells are still the end-all be-all of power and versatility.

To be fair, it does lack the other "big" 9ths in Gate, Wish/Miracle, Time Stop. But those're just the "Yeah, I don't actually want to mess with this encounter" spells, not the average, everyday versatility that creates spellcasting's use (especially at lower levels).

[Deophaun]

Here's a list of PHB Cleric spells of level 3 and less that completely obviate other characters, whether through doing their job better, or by making them incapable of doing it.
Some of your spells qualify, but a lot don't. Bless doesn't replace the fighter; it's actually a spell that plays nicely with mundanes by making them more effective. At low levels, however, it can replace a Bard's inspire courage. Endure elements isn't something you'd expect a Favored Soul to take as it's too situational and easily covered with an inexpensive magic item (and not something that replaces the Ranger). Summon Monster I isn't a beat-stick; it's a trap finder, and also not something a Favored Soul will be likely to pick up; Summon Monster III is where that line becomes attractive. Obscuring mist is great, but you still need Move Silently to take advantage of it, and it doesn't replace Hide, as the spell itself is a giant neon sign saying there's a spell caster in the area.

Of the ones you listed, wind wall is pretty much the only one that actually obviates a class as you don't want to be an archer in a party where this is on someone's short list. Meanwhile, the nastiest SoLs you've got--hold person, bestow curse, silence, blindness/deafness--all appear on T3 spell lists. So, hardly a ringing endorsement of the Cleric list. You've got to get to higher spell levels before the spell list itself is enough to push the class into T2 territory, as that's really all that the Favored Soul gets (his other class features can all be replicated by spells on the Cleric list).

[Techwarrior]

Some of your spells qualify, but a lot don't. Bless doesn't replace the fighter; it's actually a spell that plays nicely with mundanes by making them more effective. At low levels, however, it can replace a Bard's inspire courage. Endure elements isn't something you'd expect a Favored Soul to take as it's too situational and easily covered with an inexpensive magic item (and not something that replaces the Ranger). Summon Monster I isn't a beat-stick; it's a trap finder, and also not something a Favored Soul will be likely to pick up; Summon Monster III is where that line becomes attractive. Obscuring mist is great, but you still need Move Silently to take advantage of it, and it doesn't replace Hide, as the spell itself is a giant neon sign saying there's a spell caster in the area.

Of the ones you listed, wind wall is pretty much the only one that actually obviates a class as you don't want to be an archer in a party where this is on someone's short list. Meanwhile, the nastiest SoLs you've got--hold person, bestow curse, silence, blindness/deafness--all appear on T3 spell lists. So, hardly a ringing endorsement of the Cleric list. You've got to get to higher spell levels before the spell list itself is enough to push the class into T2 territory, as that's really all that the Favored Soul gets (his other class features can all be replicated by spells on the Cleric list).

Most of the point of having access to the spells on the Cleric list is the ability to activate Scrolls and Wands of those spells. A Favored Soul might not take Summon Monster as a spell known, but give them a Wand with it and they gain all the benefit.

Several of the comments I made mock specific uses of skills (notably Survival) and the fact that you don't need someone with that skill trained (usually a Ranger in my experience) to do that anymore.

Blindness completely negates anybody that fails their save unless they succeed on a save. Being unable to target spell effects, line up a ranged attack, or move into melee effectively make it incredibly hard to do anything well enough to contribute, and in my experience is usually more effective than Wind Wall. I will admit that the Cleric list is at it's weakest in the low-levels, but the fact remains that it's effective, and the Favored Soul can gain access to any of these spells that they want cheaply.

[Deophaun]

Most of the point of having access to the spells on the Cleric list is the ability to activate Scrolls and Wands of those spells. A Favored Soul might not take Summon Monster as a spell known, but give them a Wand with it and they gain all the benefit.
No one is getting a wand or scroll of summon monster I. At a 1 round duration, it's practically useless.

Blindness completely negates anybody that fails their save unless they succeed on a save.
So Dread Necromancers are Tier 2 then? No.

[Techwarrior]

No one is getting a wand or scroll of summon monster I. At a 1 round duration, it's practically useless.

So Dread Necromancers are Tier 2 then? No.

-Sigh-

You do know that wands and scrolls don't have to be minimum caster level, and there are situations where a 1 round duration is plenty. You mentioned trapspringing, that can be done in 1 round. If you're trying to use Summon Monster to activate the trap, it doesn't really matter the duration.

I'm not saying that having Blindness makes you T2. I'm saying that it's an example of a good spell that obviates other characters/monsters.

You seem to be vastly misunderstanding me.

[Deophaun]

You do know that wands and scrolls don't have to be minimum caster level,
And no one is paying for a CL 4 summon monster I, either. By the time that's cheap enough to not hurt your WBL, you've got better options. And then there will always be something better to spend 3k on.

and there are situations where a 1 round duration is plenty. You mentioned trapspringing, that can be done in 1 round.
Actually, I mentioned trap finding. Frequently, that's more than 1 round. Trapspringing, meanwhile, is for when you've already found a trap, which means you have a rogue. And no, find traps doesn't replace the rogue, as with 2+Dump Stat skill points and Search as a CC skill, you're still failing the inflated Search DCs.

I'm not saying that having Blindness makes you T2. I'm saying that it's an example of a good spell that obviates other characters/monsters.
You said that they are T2 because there are Level 3 spells and under that obviate other characters/monsters. And as I said, the only things on your list that does that, but is not a spell available to T3 casters, is wind wall.

So, I understand you just fine. The question is, do you understand you?

[Snowbluff]

They're T2, but I would NEVER play one. Turning is just so much fun and has so much feat support.

[Komatik]

They're T2, but I would NEVER play one. Turning is just so much fun and has so much feat support.

Well you could just play a Spontaneous Variant Cleric, have turning, have domains and be less MAD.

[Amphetryon]

Yes, anything with access to 1st through 9th level spells or powers from the Cleric, Druid, Wizard/Sorcerer, or Psion lists is Tier 1 or 2. You have tons of options that can basically reshape reality, and win almost any type of encounter.

Except the Shugenja, whose casting chassis and limitations are just a bit too confining to hit T1/T2. Note that the Spirit Shaman is also a weird case, per the original Tier list and the narrow parameters of T2.

[eggynack]

The question is, do you understand you?
Whoa, man. My mind: blown.

[awa]

survival has a lot of uses besides finding food. In fact finding food is such a minor part of d&d in general ive never seen it be an issue (for pcs).

in regards to game breaking 3rd level cleric spells animate dead and stone shape are far more powerful
The magic circles shuts down almost an entire school so that one worth mentioning as well

[Snowbluff]

Well you could just play a Spontaneous Variant Cleric, have turning, have domains and be less MAD.

Which has the added benefit of giving all of the domain spells and being more flavorful.

[BrokenChord]

Which has the added benefit of giving all of the domain spells and being more flavorful.

You couldn't pay me to say Favored Soul is more useful than Spontaneous Cleric, because that would be a lie, but how in the world is Spontaneous Cleric more flavorful? I'm legitimately curious.

[Seerow]

Except the Shugenja, whose casting chassis and limitations are just a bit too confining to hit T1/T2. Note that the Spirit Shaman is also a weird case, per the original Tier list and the narrow parameters of T2.

Spirit Shamans are totally Tier 1. They get 9th level spells from a full spell list that they can change every day. Anything they lose from not having access to Wild Shape or an Animal Companion they more than make up in the versatility of being a spontaneous caster who changes their spells known daily. It's not like getting an animal companion isn't just a feat away if you really want one.


Favored Souls are Tier 2, but towards the lower end of it. Missing out on both Turning and Domains hurts a lot, but 9th level spells from the full cleric list still gets you out of tier 3, even if Spontaneous Cleric is better in every conceivable way.

edit:

You couldn't pay me to say Favored Soul is more useful than Spontaneous Cleric, because that would be a lie, but how in the world is Spontaneous Cleric more flavorful? I'm legitimately curious.


Spontaneous Cleric gets its domains as spells known for free. At many levels, the domain spells are your only spells known for a given spell level. Basically the spontaneous cleric has a much heavier focus on their domains. Being a Spontaneous Cleric of Pelor is going to make you feel much closer to embodying Pelor on Earth than being a Favored Soul of Pelor. The Cleric has Healing and Sun domain spells at every level for his worship, the Favored Soul gains weapon specialization in a Longsword for his worship. The Cleric ends up much more closely aligned with his deity by the mechanics.

[Vortenger]

If I may I'd like to add two more spells to the list that make Favored Soul T2

Divine Insight and (questionably) Guidance of the Avatar. Obviating the need for skill ranks since Spell Compendium. Did you know divine casters are some of the best skill monkeys?

[GilesTheCleric]

If I may I'd like to add two more spells to the list that make Favored Soul T2

Divine Insight and (questionably) Guidance of the Avatar. Obviating the need for skill ranks since Spell Compendium. Did you know divine casters are some of the best skill monkeys?

Yup, you're right. They've got a whole list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?342143-Favored-soul-feat-suggestions&p=17315393&viewfull=1#post17315393) of these spells. If you can't find a way to obviate almost any encounter with one or two spells by level 3-5, then you're purposefully making life difficult for yourself.

Bonus mention for lore of the gods, wieldskill, and share skills. Clerics ≥ rogues.

[Twilightwyrm]

The lose of domains and turning while not great aren't that much of a problem, you can take prestige classes to get those back. Also no one cares about spontaneous cure spells because wands of lesser vigor and the only incombat healing spell worth using (Heal) isn't able to be cast like that.

In any case the Cleric is tier 1 by virtue of its spell list only. The Favoured Soul is tier 2 because it gets to cherry pick from that list. That's about it.

See, I was under the impression that classes were being judged to be in this tier or that based upon their abilities alone, not what abilities one could pick up via multi-classsing or going into a PrC. Otherwise a Bard should be at least Tier 2 (See Sublime Chord), and the Fighter should probably jump to at least solid Tier 4, if only because of its ease of access (compared to non-Warblade/Crusaders) to the Eternal Blade PrC.
Mind you this doesn't necessarily make the Favored Soul Tier 3. Access to Miracle, Gate, and various Summoning Spells all be guarantees it a spot there. But of the Tier 2s, it is at the very low end. However, for those that would consider Spirit Shaman Tier 3, we might have another class to add to that category.

[Talya]

Without factoring in a domain, the Druid Spell list is WAY better than the cleric's. The domain can help a great deal, depending what you pick. The favored soul doesn't get that domain.

With that said, the cleric spell list is more than good enough *on its own* to be Tier 1. Just because the druid list is a bit better, doesn't mean the cleric spell list isn't good. spontaneous moves it to Tier 2, which is where Favored Soul belongs.

[Shining Wrath]

The definition of Tier 2 is "Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes. Still potencially campaign smashers by using the right abilities, but at the same time are more predictable and can't always have the right tool for the job. If the Tier 1 classes are countries with 10,000 nuclear weapons in their arsenal, these guys are countries with 10 nukes. Still dangerous and world shattering, but not in quite so many ways. Note that the Tier 2 classes are often less flexible than Tier 3 classes... it's just that their incredible potential power overwhelms their lack in flexibility."

The question before us, then, is "Does the Favored Soul have access to nukes"? That is, can the Favored Soul use magic of the sort that can make the DM's encounter just go away?

The Favored Soul has access to the full Cleric spell list.

The Favored Soul has access to magics which can obliterate an encounter from several different directions.

They may be low Tier 2 (that MAD casting thing sucks very hard), but Tier 2 they are.

[Techwarrior]

And no one is paying for a CL 4 summon monster I, either. By the time that's cheap enough to not hurt your WBL, you've got better options. And then there will always be something better to spend 3k on.

Actually, I mentioned trap finding. Frequently, that's more than 1 round. Trapspringing, meanwhile, is for when you've already found a trap, which means you have a rogue. And no, find traps doesn't replace the rogue, as with 2+Dump Stat skill points and Search as a CC skill, you're still failing the inflated Search DCs.

You said that they are T2 because there are Level 3 spells and under that obviate other characters/monsters. And as I said, the only things on your list that does that, but is not a spell available to T3 casters, is wind wall.

So, I understand you just fine. The question is, do you understand you?

I understand myself just fine. I failed to understand you entirely, so made myself look bad by making points that weren't necessary.

The real point is, the Cleric list gives access to something for solving every kind of encounter, and has game breaking spells in it that simply can't be ignored by the DM. Favored Souls have access to that list, and can gain that game breaking, T2+ power, by simple spell selection. The fact that the low end of the Cleric list is pretty light on game-breakers doesn't negate that. Once you open up level 4 spells, which are the ones I specifically avoided, all pretense that a T3 caster list is as good as a Cleric's goes right the hell out the window.

Also, I looked back over T3 lists of the classes I've seen in play.
Dread Necromancers do not have:
Wind Wall
Summon Monster III
Bestow Curse
Create Food/Water
Water Breathing

Hold Person
Spiritual Weapon
Find Traps
Calm Emotions
Aid
Sound Burst
Summon Monster II, although they do get Summon Undead II
Zone of Truth
Silence
Make Whole

Bless
Divine Favor
Endure Elements
Summon Monster I, has Summon Undead I
Obscuring Mist
Beguilers do not have:
Wind Wall
Summon Monster III
Bestow Curse
Blindness/Deafness, though they get Glitterdust
Speak with Dead
Create Food/Water
Water Breathing

Spiritual Weapon
Find Traps
Calm Emotions
Aid
Sound Burst
Summon Monster II
Zone of Truth
Silence
Make Whole

Bless
Divine Favor
Endure Elements
Cause Fear
Summon Monster I
Hide from Undead
Bards don't get
Bestow Curse
Speak with Dead
Create Food/Water
Water Breathing

Spiritual Weapon
Find Traps
Aid
Zone of Truth
Make Whole

Bless
Divine Favor
Endure Elements
Hide from Undead, though they get Invis

[Amphetryon]

Spirit Shamans are totally Tier 1. They get 9th level spells from a full spell list that they can change every day. Anything they lose from not having access to Wild Shape or an Animal Companion they more than make up in the versatility of being a spontaneous caster who changes their spells known daily. It's not like getting an animal companion isn't just a feat away if you really want one.


This argument is not without merit; note that the original Tier list vacillates between putting Spirit Shaman at T1 or T3.

[Seerow]

This argument is not without merit; note that the original Tier list vacillates between putting Spirit Shaman at T1 or T3.

Yes, because a large number of people are stupid. It doesn't change where the Spirit Shaman actually belongs.


And seriously, while Tier 2 may be arguable if you really believe the Wizard is the only class with a spell list potent enough to make it to Tier 1 on its own (the frequent argument is Wildshape/Animal Companion, and Domains/Turn Undead are what bring Druid and Cleric up to Tier 1; despite that not making any sense by the tier definitions), anyone who actually believes the Druid list is weak enough to condemn the Spirit Shaman to Tier 3 needs to be locked in a room somewhere with nothing to do but read the Druid Spell list for a few weeks.

[Amphetryon]

Yes, because a large number of people are stupid. It doesn't change where the Spirit Shaman actually belongs.


And seriously, while Tier 2 may be arguable if you really believe the Wizard is the only class with a spell list potent enough to make it to Tier 1 on its own (the frequent argument is Wildshape/Animal Companion, and Domains/Turn Undead are what bring Druid and Cleric up to Tier 1; despite that not making any sense by the tier definitions), anyone who actually believes the Druid list is weak enough to condemn the Spirit Shaman to Tier 3 needs to be locked in a room somewhere with nothing to do but read the Druid Spell list for a few weeks.

You're arguing about the placement of a single Class (that is tangential to the thread), by a single person - JaronK, who wrote the Tier System as it applies to 3.5 - and apparently choosing to do so via a 'debate' with me in which you choose to use the term 'stupid.'

Really?:smallconfused:

[nedz]

Spirit Shamans are totally Tier 1. They get 9th level spells from a full spell list that they can change every day. Anything they lose from not having access to Wild Shape or an Animal Companion they more than make up in the versatility of being a spontaneous caster who changes their spells known daily. It's not like getting an animal companion isn't just a feat away if you really want one.
Spirit Shamans are T1, but they have aspects of T2 casting. On any given day a Spirit Shamans will play like a T2 caster. Sorcerers, without any extra spells known, have about 50% more spells available than the Spirit Shamans can retrieve.

This is the cause of the confusion I think. Spirit Shamans are strategically T1, but tactically T2.


You couldn't pay me to say Favored Soul is more useful than Spontaneous Cleric, because that would be a lie, but how in the world is Spontaneous Cleric more flavourful? I'm legitimately curious.

Deities grant domains which are appropriate for their portfolios, = Flavour. Spontaneous Clerics get access to these domains whilst often Favored Souls can't ever cast the spells most associated with their patrons because they are not on the general Cleric list.

[Seerow]

You're arguing about the placement of a single Class (that is tangential to the thread), by a single person - JaronK, who wrote the Tier System as it applies to 3.5 - and apparently choosing to do so via a 'debate' with me in which you choose to use the term 'stupid.'

Really?:smallconfused:

I wasn't really trying to debate with you (as far as I could tell you were agreeing with me), but rather giving my opinion on the "official" tiering you brought up.

[eggynack]

Yes, because a large number of people are stupid. It doesn't change where the Spirit Shaman actually belongs.


And seriously, while Tier 2 may be arguable if you really believe the Wizard is the only class with a spell list potent enough to make it to Tier 1 on its own (the frequent argument is Wildshape/Animal Companion, and Domains/Turn Undead are what bring Druid and Cleric up to Tier 1; despite that not making any sense by the tier definitions), anyone who actually believes the Druid list is weak enough to condemn the Spirit Shaman to Tier 3 needs to be locked in a room somewhere with nothing to do but read the Druid Spell list for a few weeks.
I don't necessarily disagree with your position of spirit shaman as low tier one, but I don't necessarily agree with it either. First, your list of things missing from the spirit shaman includes two very key elements, which are spontaneous summoning and the base druid casting mechanic (which is generally better than that of a spirit shaman). The former is especially relevant, as it make your magic doings significantly more powerful.

Second, wild shape likely does have at least some small role in druid tiering, even if that doesn't necessarily fit the model exactly. In particular, it helps if you think of wild shape less as a separate class feature, and more as just a bunch of extra spells you can cast in a day. It's like some combination of a super-charged buff spell, along with overland flight, something that grants a swim speed, and a bunch of other stuff besides. Is the druid list tier one without that pile of "spells" on it, spontaneously accessible at any moment? Almost certainly, yes, but not by as much. Is the druid list tier one without that pile of spells, without summoning, and also with a worse casting mechanic? Maybe, but it's a much less certain thing.

I agree, however, that tier 3 makes no sense. There's something to be said for fitting the exact definitions on the tier list, or something like that, but the spirit shaman does get better than spontaneous access to one of the most powerful lists in the game, and that's enough for a high 2.

[Seerow]

The main point I disagree with you on eggynack is that the Spirit Shaman's casting mechanic is weaker. Yes, a druid can prepare more different spells; but I don't know many people who have 5 spells per day of a given spell level, and prepare 5 different spells in all of those slots. Most likely you have somewhere between 2 and 4, with a couple of multiples in there of your most generally useful spells. There may be people who play their prepared casters as literally having 40-50 different spells prepared at any given time, but in my experience that's not a common way to play, and trying to play that way often ends up with a ton of situational spells you don't need. The Druid does have the advantage of being able to convert those spontaneously to summons if they end up not being useful, but if you're preparing a huge variety in hopes of countering everything, and then burning things that don't seem useful at the time, you're nearly as likely to burn something you will want later as not.

The real advantage of prepared casting is being able to change out your spells known to fit a known situation. A Wizard/Druid/Cleric will use divinations to figure out what's coming up ahead, and prepare his spell loadout accordingly. Or after finding out what's going on with this adventure, prepare spells suitable for dealing with it.

And that is a game the Spirit Shaman can compete in, and excell in, above and beyond what any other Tier 1 class is capable of. You have sorcerer level spells per day, full access to a strong list, and the ability to adapt that spell list to fit any situation. If you're running in blind you might be at a slight disadvantage to a druid, but going in prepared you're as strong as or stronger than any of them. Seriously, I'd give an arm and a leg to have a Wizard using the Spirit Shaman casting style. Calling it weaker is a great disservice.


Edit: Also for what it's worth, Spontaneous Summoning is just a feat away, and isn't a bad feat for a Spirit Shaman to consider. It's limited in uses per day, but still handy to be able to pull out. You'll probably want to use that for upper level slots, and at higher level you can waste a low level spell retrieved on a summon for trap bait and the like.


Edit2: Spoilered because the off-topic tangent was getting too long.

[Deophaun]

Dread Necromancers do not have:
First, they do have Bestow Curse. Level 4 spell.

Second, part of my assertion is that these spells do not obviate classes like you claim. Find traps and bless were already used as examples. I could run down every single one, but that will take a while. The only spell you've listed that does what you claim and that is not available to a Tier 3 is wind wall. Water breathing? Pfft. Bards have alter self, and Dread Necros are likely undead anyway. Zone of truth just makes people evasive. Make whole has never, to my knowledge, been used to break WBL, especially not like Craft (sculpture) can. I can go on. These spells might be nice, might be useful, but they aren't game changers and they don't sideline anyone.

Now, other people have listed some pretty good spells. Guidance of the avatar is so amazing that I've flat out banned it: it pretty much obviates the need for all skill monkeys.

[eggynack]

The main point I disagree with you on eggynack is that the Spirit Shaman's casting mechanic is weaker. Yes, a druid can prepare more different spells; but I don't know many people who have 5 spells per day of a given spell level, and prepare 5 different spells in all of those slots. Most likely you have somewhere between 2 and 4, with a couple of multiples in there of your most generally useful spells. There may be people who play their prepared casters as literally having 40-50 different spells prepared at any given time, but in my experience that's not a common way to play, and trying to play that way often ends up with a ton of situational spells you don't need. The Druid does have the advantage of being able to convert those spontaneously to summons if they end up not being useful, but if you're preparing a huge variety in hopes of countering everything, and then burning things that don't seem useful at the time, you're nearly as likely to burn something you will want later as not.

The real advantage of prepared casting is being able to change out your spells known to fit a known situation. A Wizard/Druid/Cleric will use divinations to figure out what's coming up ahead, and prepare his spell loadout accordingly. Or after finding out what's going on with this adventure, prepare spells suitable for dealing with it.

And that is a game the Spirit Shaman can compete in, and excell in, above and beyond what any other Tier 1 class is capable of. You have sorcerer level spells per day, full access to a strong list, and the ability to adapt that spell list to fit any situation. If you're running in blind you might be at a slight disadvantage to a druid, but going in prepared you're as strong as or stronger than any of them. Seriously, I'd give an arm and a leg to have a Wizard using the Spirit Shaman casting style. Calling it weaker is a great disservice.


Edit: Also for what it's worth, Spontaneous Summoning is just a feat away, and isn't a bad feat for a Spirit Shaman to consider. It's limited in uses per day, but still handy to be able to pull out. You'll probably want to use that for upper level slots, and at higher level you can waste a low level spell retrieved on a summon for trap bait and the like.


Edit2: Spoilered because the off-topic tangent was getting too long.
I can see the advantage of the mechanic, but the issue is that I feel that the spells retrieved on a spirit shaman is probably lower than the different spells prepared on a druid. You definitely gain most of the benefit of prepared casting, but I don't think you gain all of it. Also, the dual casting stat thing is a bit annoying, especially when you consider the fact that the spirit shaman lacks the druid's AC+WS based SAD'ness, as it relates to beating folk up.

As for spontaneous summoner, it's a good idea, though it possibly doesn't work. The feat works by granting spontaneous summoning "as a druid", and the druid's spontaneous summoning is explicitly rooted in the conversion of prepared spells. I'm not sure that the spirit shaman has prepared spells to convert. Speaking of stuff you lose from not being a prepared caster, I think that you also miss out on sanctified and corrupt spells. It's not the most important thing, but it's not the least important either.

Ultimately, the spirit shaman loses a really large quantity of stuff relative to the druid. I don't know that it's enough to justify a tier drop, but I think that it's certainly a debatable thing. I mean, whatever way you look at it, the spirit shaman is definitely at a power level between the weakest tier one and the strongest tier two, so we have a good approximation. It's just tricky figuring out the right placement.

[Gnaeus]

Of course Spirit Shamans aren't Tier 1. They are probably tier 2, but I would much rather have a favored soul in my party than a spirit shaman. As a regular and successful druid and sorcerer player, I found my Spirit Shaman to be weaker than my Dread Necro in almost every circumstance, and many, many, many times I wished I had played a Favored Soul instead (like every single day when I prepared Heal in my single 7th level slot because I didn't know what I would be facing).

Sure druids have a tier 1 list. But Spirit Shamans don't. Half the druid list is buffs for animals (great for a class with an AC, crummy otherwise) or combat buffs (great for a guy wildshaped into a bear, useless for spirit shaman). Another big chunk of Druid love is some very nice long duration buffs, which suck for the spirit shaman because he can't afford to tie up one of his precious spells retrieved for a spell he is going to cast once per day. Then there are all the utility spells that a druid can memorize just in case, and then convert if it turns out he didn't need it. By the time you remove all the spells that are useless for him, and all the spells that you know you aren't going to be using more than once per day, S Shamans probably only get about 1/3-1/2 of the druid spell list, and that does not leave you in tier 1.


They are bottom of tier 2 at BEST. I don't really agree with the tier 3 ranking, but it makes a lot more sense than calling it a tier 1 and pretending it has utility like a cleric.

[Shining Wrath]

Spirit Shamans are T1, but they have aspects of T2 casting. On any given day a Spirit Shamans will play like a T2 caster. Sorcerers, without any extra spells known, have about 50% more spells available than the Spirit Shamans can retrieve.

This is the cause of the confusion I think. Spirit Shamans are strategically T1, but tactically T2.



Deities grant domains which are appropriate for their portfolios, = Flavour. Spontaneous Clerics get access to these domains whilst often Favored Souls can't ever cast the spells most associated with their patrons because they are not on the general Cleric list.

I will vote for Favored Soul as the most borked high Tier class. There's enough power left to avoid being something useless, but so many things that are bad not just crunch wise but fluff wise. Your god chose you to serve them, but you don't get extra magic from the god's domains and you can't influence undead like a cleric does? IMNHO a Favored Soul ought to be, flavor-wise, more like their god than a cleric is, not less.

[awa]

personally i feel the fluff of the favored soul has way to much overlap with the cleric. Now if clerics got a bunch of powers related to being part of a priest hood like social bonuses or the ability to borrow items from their temple then i could see the point of a favored soul but as it is just feel unnecessary

[Spuddles]

What planet did you get your books from? The Cleric has a superior spell list to the Druid; it by no means lacks in that regard. Sure, Turning cheese helps solidify their spot and domains are just nifty, but without these things Cleric does not fall a tier. Druid wouldn't fall a tier if it lost Wild Shape and Animal Companion, either, despite those being very useful features.

Favored Soul is annoyingly MAD, I grant that. But it's cherrypicking from a very nice list. Now, I'd consider it lower on tier 2 than Sorcerer, certainly, but it has the selection of gamebreaking spells without the shifting versatility day to day. Pretty much the definition of T2.

Also, "high T3" would be as if Favored Soul was equivalent to Bard. They both have a decent limit to spells known, and while the Bard list is very good, it's no Cleric list.

Give me 9 spells, from level 1 to 9, that are on the cleric list, that are worth having.

I dont see anything like Polymorph, Wall of Iron, Teleport, or any other T1 stuff. It's a bunch of "spend resources and actions to pretend to be a fighter." The best stuff they have, air walk & etc, and shape stone & etc., druids also have or even just get with wildshape & a feat or two.

Cleric spell list is underwhelming unless you're looking at 9ths, but at that point, truenamer & healer get gate.

[Calimehter]

Give me 9 spells, from level 1 to 9, that are on the cleric list, that are worth having.

I dont see anything like Polymorph, Wall of Iron, Teleport, or any other T1 stuff. It's a bunch of "spend resources and actions to pretend to be a fighter." The best stuff they have, air walk & etc, and shape stone & etc., druids also have or even just get with wildshape & a feat or two.

Cleric spell list is underwhelming unless you're looking at 9ths, but at that point, truenamer & healer get gate.

True Seeing, Plane Shift, the Dispel line, the Holy Word line . . .

I'm not going to say that they match the Wizard spell list, but they get good stuff. I'm building a Favored Soul (going to Stormlord as a Thor worshipper) for a newer player, and I'm almost wishing I had used the concept myself.

[awa]

Give me 9 spells, from level 1 to 9, that are on the cleric list, that are worth having.

I dont see anything like Polymorph, Wall of Iron, Teleport, or any other T1 stuff. It's a bunch of "spend resources and actions to pretend to be a fighter." The best stuff they have, air walk & etc, and shape stone & etc., druids also have or even just get with wildshape & a feat or two.

Cleric spell list is underwhelming unless you're looking at 9ths, but at that point, truenamer & healer get gate.

worth having? i bet i can do that with just the srd
1)protection from evil. a 1st level spell that basically shuts down an entire school and grants situational deflection and a bit of protection from summoned creatures. That's worth having
2) silence great for disabling other casters and protection from certain monster
3) animate dead great meat shield that scales with level
4) restoration (negative levels are bad lost levels are worse)
5) raise dead
6) heroes feast (12hours of immunity to fear and poison for the whole part is pretty handy)
7) blasphemy(use some handy dandy caster level boosters and it can one shot large groups of your supposed equals.
8) planner ally greater
9)miracle its like wish but better

all of these spells are worthwhile none replicate being a fighter or are on the druid list. I'm certain there are many other worthwhile spells that a cleric can get

[TuggyNE]

Give me 9 spells, from level 1 to 9, that are on the cleric list, that are worth having.

Within Core: Protection from evil, command
Silence, soundburst
Dispel magic, helping hand, wind wall
Air walk, death ward, divination, freedom of movement, lesser planar ally
Greater command, raise dead, true seeing
Planar ally, animate objects, greater dispel magic
Holy word etc, control weather
Greater planar ally, discern location, dimensional lock
Astral projection, gate, miracle

That should be a sufficient collection of minionmancy, save-or-X, no-save-just-X, utility, and immunities. If that's not T1, what is? (Summon monster I-IX might also be included; I left out a fair few that didn't stand out quite as much but are probably still worthwhile.)

[Pluto!]

Regarding Cleric spell selections, they aren't exactly short of sweet spells, even those available to the FS.

Holy Words, Planar Allies, Gates, Miracles, Animate Dead, Shivering Touch, Streamers and Consumptive Fields are all outright broken in some way. Looking through some of the lists of especially sweet cleric spells:

Summon spells (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?255219-The-Summoner-s-Desk-Reference-D-amp-D-3-5), Dispels, Ice Slick, Silence, Divine Insight, Guidance of the Avatar, Girallon's Blessing, Sheltered Vitality, Magic Circles, Dimension Anchor, Freedom of Movement, True Seeing, Death Ward, Dampen Magic, Air Walk, Wall of Whatever, Plane Shift, Heal, Veil of Undeath, Swift Etherealness, and the favor of divination that suits the quest are always worth knowing and are usually very powerful (though the defensive ones can be boring). Dispels get a special shoutout in the Cleric's case because domains and turning can make them much more powerful than they are for most casters - and those are resources often available in FS builds.

Nauseating Breath, Hold spells, Waves of Grief, Curses of Ill Fortune, Greater Command, Last Judgment, Evil Glare, Radiant Assault, Dancing Web, Doomtide, Necrotic Spellbomb, Venom Bolt and Assay Spell Resistance are all powerful offensive/control spells. They admittedly tend to be worse in the hands of a Favored Soul due to MAD, but most are just nasty.

Magic Vestment, Superior/Greater Resistance, Greater Magic Weapon, Mass Aid/Conviction/Shield of Faith, Curse of the Brute, Recitation, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, Darkness, Surge of Fortune, Heroes' Feast, Brilliant Aura are party buffs that will always be assets, and make powerful actions to throw out round by round.

...Then there's the option of burning resources to pretend to be a fighter, but that's boring.

[GilesTheCleric]

Give me 9 spells, from level 1 to 9, that are on the cleric list, that are worth having.

I dont see anything like Polymorph, Wall of Iron, Teleport, or any other T1 stuff. It's a bunch of "spend resources and actions to pretend to be a fighter." The best stuff they have, air walk & etc, and shape stone & etc., druids also have or even just get with wildshape & a feat or two.

Cleric spell list is underwhelming unless you're looking at 9ths, but at that point, truenamer & healer get gate.

You seem to have not read this thread. I posted a whole list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?342438-Are-favored-souls-really-tier-2&p=17317314&viewfull=1#post17317314) just a page ago.

[Telok]

I think that the difference between the T1 and T2 main-line casters is that the T1s can choose to have different spells every day while the T2s are mostly locked into their chosen spell selection. A wizard, cleric, or druid can be facing a dragon infested swamp one day, a ruined temple stocked with undead and traps the next day, and end up back in a city doing urban intrigue and court politics the last day. Each day they can have an appropriate selection of spells simply by preparing different spells. The T2s don't have the flexability, if they have an inappropriate spell selection for a task then they get to suck at that. Just having 9ths off a good list isn't (by itself) enough to be T1, even if you only choose the "best" spells.

Likewise just having 9th level spells or spells from a good list isn't enough to be a T2 caster, warmage and beguiler have 9ths while bards and spelltheives have good lists but none of them are (natively) T2.

Favored Souls can't be T1, they don't have the flexability of spellcasting that defines the T1s. The question than is if they are T2, T3, or in the fuzzy area between the two ratings. The only meaningful class features they get are energy resistances at levels 5 and 10, and DR 10 at level 20. They have significantly more potential flexability than a beguiler, but they also lack the Limited Wish -> Psychic Reformation level of flexability of the sorcerer (who also has near zero class features). At the same time I've never seen a Favored Soul played as well as a warmage or beguiler, they don't seem to have enough spells known to cover more than a limited casting role similar to the T3s. They are ahead of the T3s, but it doesn't seem like they are ahead by very much.

The Spirit Shaman is an interesting case, they have T1-like (and/or -lite) spellcasting and real class features (1/week Revivify SLA at level 11 just to pick one). But the druid spell list is more thematically limited than the cleric and sorc/wiz lists and the class abilities don't synergize with with that spell list very well. Further the shaman doesn't have as many different spells prepared each day as the other T1 and T2 casters. One interesting note is that the class abilities focus on incorporeal undead/critters which is one area that the druid spell list has been historically lacking in. They are generally much more flexable than the T3 casters and definitely below the T1 power level.

Personally I call Favored Soul and Spirit Shaman in at low T2, probably below the others and just above the best T3s (and some days Favored Soul doesn't even rank that high). Although for me... I can't play a Favored Soul if cleric, druid, or spirit shaman is available. The utter lack of anything but the not-quite-enough spellcasting just kills the class for me.

[Cloud]

See, I was under the impression that classes were being judged to be in this tier or that based upon their abilities alone, not what abilities one could pick up via multi-classsing or going into a PrC. Otherwise a Bard should be at least Tier 2 (See Sublime Chord), and the Fighter should probably jump to at least solid Tier 4, if only because of its ease of access (compared to non-Warblade/Crusaders) to the Eternal Blade PrC.
Mind you this doesn't necessarily make the Favored Soul Tier 3. Access to Miracle, Gate, and various Summoning Spells all be guarantees it a spot there. But of the Tier 2s, it is at the very low end. However, for those that would consider Spirit Shaman Tier 3, we might have another class to add to that category.

Yeah, my bad, I should have been clear, a Favoured Soul is tier 2 by virtue of reasonable spontaneous access to the entire cleric spell list. Not necessarily high in tier 2 and it probably wouldn't take too many less spells known to knock them out, but as is is tier 2.

The rest of the stuff about using PrCs wasn't meant to tie in about tiering the class, and was more while they're obviously worse than clerics, they get to use the same optimising shenanigans and have a high ceiling despite missing Turn Undead natively (Not having Turn Undead as a class feature never stopped the Archivist from doing his best to join in on that fun after all. XD ). For what it's worth Clerics are still tier 1 without class feature, and while domains are nice the main one to note is turn undead because it opens up Divine Metamagic.

[Jeff the Green]

The Spirit Shaman is an interesting case, they have T1-like (and/or -lite) spellcasting and real class features (1/week Revivify SLA at level 11 just to pick one). But the druid spell list is more thematically limited than the cleric and sorc/wiz lists and the class abilities don't synergize with with that spell list very well. Further the shaman doesn't have as many different spells prepared each day as the other T1 and T2 casters. One interesting note is that the class abilities focus on incorporeal undead/critters which is one area that the druid spell list has been historically lacking in. They are generally much more flexable than the T3 casters and definitely below the T1 power level.

This is why I generally class them in with tier 2. While they can technically swap out their spells known each day, in practice they mostly don't. Because of the very small number of spells retrieved, picking up specialist spells can make you waste an enormous number of spell slots. For example, if you want to cast scrying between 7th and 9th, you won't be casting any other 4th-level spells that day. This is irritating if you have downtime, but if you don't (say, you need to hit your enemy as soon as you scry on them or they'll move) it effectively prevents you from using the sorts of strategies and spells that might make you a (low) tier 1.

Also remember that there are some slots that are probably going to be taken up every day you're adventuring. Your top two spell levels should probably include SNA. You should probably always retrieve barkskin, kelp strand, and mass snake's swiftness. It also reduces your effectiveness at buffing: any hour/level spell only one or two members of your party can use is probably a waste, and you probably can't afford multiple spells boosting the same shtick (e.g. shillelagh and brambles) the way a druid could.

[nedz]

This is why I generally class them in with tier 2. While they can technically swap out their spells known each day, in practice they mostly don't. Because of the very small number of spells retrieved, picking up specialist spells can make you waste an enormous number of spell slots. For example, if you want to cast scrying between 7th and 9th, you won't be casting any other 4th-level spells that day. This is irritating if you have downtime, but if you don't (say, you need to hit your enemy as soon as you scry on them or they'll move) it effectively prevents you from using the sorts of strategies and spells that might make you a (low) tier 1.

Also remember that there are some slots that are probably going to be taken up every day you're adventuring. Your top two spell levels should probably include SNA. You should probably always retrieve barkskin, kelp strand, and mass snake's swiftness. It also reduces your effectiveness at buffing: any hour/level spell only one or two members of your party can use is probably a waste, and you probably can't afford multiple spells boosting the same shtick (e.g. shillelagh and brambles) the way a druid could.

I've seen at least 4 threads, now, debating this very question. Opinions seem to divide about 50/50 between T1 and T2 for the Spirit Shaman. Also; the Spontaneous Summoner feat would avoid you ever having to retrieve SNA, if indeed you wanted to do any summoning.

[Chronos]

Personally, I think that Tier 2 should be divided into two different tiers. Tier 2A is for classes with access to the same abilities as Tier 1, but only know a limited number that they can't change daily. This is where the sorcerer, favored soul, spontaneous cleric, psion, and wilder belong. Tier 2B is for classes which can change what they have access to daily, and have access to some powerful things, but don't have all that great a list they can choose from. This is where the spell-only druid, the spirit shaman, the wu jen, and the binder with online vestiges fit in. Both are above Tier 3, and both are below Tier 1, but other than that 2A and 2B don't have much in common with each other.

[nedz]

Personally, I think that Tier 2 should be divided into two different tiers. Tier 2A is for classes with access to the same abilities as Tier 1, but only know a limited number that they can't change daily. This is where the sorcerer, favored soul, spontaneous cleric, psion, and wilder belong. Tier 2B is for classes which can change what they have access to daily, and have access to some powerful things, but don't have all that great a list they can choose from. This is where the spell-only druid, the spirit shaman, the wu jen, and the binder with online vestiges fit in. Both are above Tier 3, and both are below Tier 1, but other than that 2A and 2B don't have much in common with each other.

FWIW why not divide T1 in two ?
I think that most of the classes you list are low T1.

[Spuddles]

You seem to have not read this thread. I posted a whole list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?342438-Are-favored-souls-really-tier-2&p=17317314&viewfull=1#post17317314) just a page ago.

I did. Your selection was terrible.

[GilesTheCleric]

I did. Your selection was terrible.

Thank you for the feedback. How would you recommend that I improve it? Honest question.

[Spuddles]

Thank you for the feedback. How would you recommend that I improve it? Honest question.

Play a druid :smallbiggrin:

[Chronos]

Quoth nedz:

FWIW why not divide T1 in two ?
What divide are you proposing? I don't really see a big divide between the classes that are commonly considered Tier 1: They're all there mostly on the basis of having a big list of powerful spells that they can choose from each day.

[GilesTheCleric]

Play a druid :smallbiggrin:

Well, I could do that, but that doesn't help me if I need to recommend spells to someone else who's dead-set on a FS. What spells do you think would be better picks?