Druid Gestalt Questions

[Red Fel]

Okay. So let's say I'm making a gestalt Druid 8 / Moonspeaker 12 // X 6 / Warshaper 4 / Master of Many Forms 10. Several questions arise, and I could use more experienced help.

1. Solve for X. Seriously, what should go there? Wildshape Ranger? Monk? Totemist? Swordsage? Spirit Lion Barbarian?

2. What's my Wild Shape level? Moonspeaker adds my Moonspeaker -4 to my Druid level, so at level 20, that's Druid 8 + Moonspeaker 8 (12-4) = Druid 16. However, MoMF also adds its class levels for Wild Shape purposes. So would that be like Druid 26? Or am I allowed to have two classes that increase Wild Shape on either side of the gestalt? (Or am I even allowed to have two PrCs on either side?) Would a Wild Shape Amulet make that Druid 30?

3. Feats. Obviously, Natural Spell. Likely, Greenbound Summoning. What else, though? DMM? Extra Wild Shape? The guides I've found are more along the lines of "here are some fun feats that may be useful," rather than "here's what would be useful for a particular build type".

4. Speaking of build type, where do you see this one going? Obviously, it's exceptionally good at Wild Shape. But with Moonspeaker, it's also a capable summoner. (Also, Gate. Freaking Gate.) So, do you see it dropping some SNA-SNA and then wading into battle in a Dragon Wild Shape? Or just waiting in the background while the minionmancy does the work, and saving WS for emergencies? Or facetanking with WS and dropping minions when things go south?

... Man, gestalting Druids is hard. Remember when we would just gestalt Clerics, and mix them with, like, other, non-Cleric things?

... Or maybe it was just me who did that.

[Rebel7284]

The gestalt rules mention not being allowed to take two prestige classes at the same time. Did your DM approve removing that rule?

You should at the very least have cleric 1 somewhere in the build. If you have turn attempts, you can persist your buffs with Divine Metamagic. Bite of the Werebear lasting 24 hours is good.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

1. X = Unarmed Swordsage 2/ Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) 1/ Dread Necromancer 1/ Wildshape Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger) 1/ Master of Radiance 1. Use the Rebuke Dragons ACF in Dragon Magic for Cleric, and trade your free Knowledge domain for Knowledge Devotion in CC. Your alignment must be neutral on the good-evil axis, and this gives you three separate pools of Turn/Rebuke uses. Get the Undeath domain from Cleric for Extra Turning, and that adds +4 uses to each of those pools. Get the Planning domain for Extend Spell and you can pick up Persistent Spell and DMM: Persistent for buffs like Bite of the Werecreature and Stormrage in SC. Wildshaper Ranger doesn't improve your Wild Shape ability, but it gives you Track and Fast Movement. If you can't use the Swordsage's RAW x6 skill points at 1st level, you should put Cloistered Cleric at 1st level instead.

2. RAW you cannot take two prestige classes together on a gestalt character, so unless your DM makes an exception you'll need to replace the Moonspeaker levels with Druid levels. Gestalt characters cannot double-up on class feature progression, so if two classes taken simultaneously both increase a class feature then you only get the increase that one of them grants. At level 20 your effective Druid level for Wild Shape is 18th: Moonspeaker 5-12 would add +8 but Master of Many Forms 10 adds +10, so you would take that instead and add it to your Druid level.

3. Natural Bond if you can't combine two prestige classes and replace Moonspeaker with Druid, this allows you to get a 'level -3' companion but still count your full Druid level toward its benefits. A Fleshraker (MM3) or Dire Eagle (RoS) are the strongest choices, and you can use Handle Animal to give it the Warbeast template (MM2). Also consider Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a), it says you get an animal cohort separate from your animal companion but you can dismiss both and recruit a new one that benefits from both, which would be especially useful if you keep Moonspeaker as it will continue progressing as you level up. Companion Spellbond is also useful.

As above, get Extend Spell and Extra Turning for free from domains, and take Persistent Spell and DMM: Persistent. Your daily Turn/Rebuke uses will be (7+Cha)x3, a Reliquary Holy Symbol adds +6, a Night Stick adds +12, and each additional Extra Turning adds another +12. Just a Night Stick and a Reliquary Holy Symbol with Cha 12 gives you 42 Turn/Rebuke uses each day, which can power six DMM: Persistent spells each day.

Greenbound Summoning is amazing, and Ashbound is also a good choice. Natural Spell should not be optional, though Master of Many Forms can make it somewhat redundant. Fell Drain Spell for use with spells that deal damage over several rounds can be extremely potent. Frozen Wild Shape will allow you to take the form of a Cryohydra, and with Combat Reflexes and Robilar's Gambit you can make a 12-bite AoO every time someone attacks you.

4. The character will be a god of melee, especially in the form of a Cryohydra or a War Troll with persistent buffs. He can also use spells offensively, particularly crowd controls like Kelpstrand, Wall of Thorns, and Call Avalanche. Plus you can use Produce Flame and it will add fire damage to all your natural weapon attacks per holding the charge on a touch spell, though you won't be able to cast any more spells with that active without ending it.

Get a Metamagic Rod of Extend and a 6th level Pearl of Power. Every other day prepare Energy Immunity twice and use the pearl to cast it three times, using the Rod of Extend on each so they last 48 hours. On the days in between prepare and cast Energy Immunity and Superior Resistance each once and use the pearl to cast Energy Immunity again, using the Rod of Extend on each so they last 48 hours. This gives you constant immunity to all five energy types and a +6 Resistance bonus to your saving throws, for the cost of those two items and two 6th level spells each day.

[eggynack]

3. Feats. Obviously, Natural Spell. Likely, Greenbound Summoning. What else, though? DMM? Extra Wild Shape? The guides I've found are more along the lines of "here are some fun feats that may be useful," rather than "here's what would be useful for a particular build type".

4. Speaking of build type, where do you see this one going? Obviously, it's exceptionally good at Wild Shape. But with Moonspeaker, it's also a capable summoner. (Also, Gate. Freaking Gate.) So, do you see it dropping some SNA-SNA and then wading into battle in a Dragon Wild Shape? Or just waiting in the background while the minionmancy does the work, and saving WS for emergencies? Or facetanking with WS and dropping minions when things go south?
Really, a big part of the problem here is that druids don't have an extremely strong inclination towards builds, primarily for two reasons. First, the marginal benefits from sequential feats in a line drops really fast. So, for example, you take greenbound summoning, and that's amazing, and you take ashbound, I guess, and that's nice, and then, what, rashemi elemental summoning? Which doesn't synergize with greenbound at all. The same goes for wild shape feats, where you pick up one of the major form adders, and subsequent form adders have no synergy with the first, and non-natural spell generic feats tend to suck (if they don't all suck. Seriously, wild feats are terrible, and combat feats just seem like a waste on a druid).

Simultaneously, a druid with a "wild shape build" doesn't usually just stop being an amazing caster, or a great summoner, or the animal companion guy, unless you're specifically trading those things away (which you might be in the last case, and probably correctly). If you seek to play your character in a perfectly optimal manner (and you really can't, to some extent), then there's no one plan, and there's no one place you're going. The best plan in any given situation could be any of the things you've listed, depending on what your character looks like exactly, what resources you have remaining, and what you're facing.

Thus, I'd advise just getting good feats. Easier said than done, perhaps, though not by that much. Get your natural spell, and your big summoning feat, maybe get a form adder and a second summoning feat (probably ashbound, or even augment summoning if you have room), consider tossing in some metamagic, or versatile spellcaster, or even initiate of nature, and maybe even get craft wondrous for good luck, and whaddya know, you've got a feat assignment. You could specialize more than that, but you should only really consider doing that to the extent that you care more about your character's theming than his optimization. On another note, in the same theme, for your list of X possibilities, could the answer just be "yes"? Most of the classes you've listed, as well as cloistered cleric, dip amazingly well.

[Red Fel]

The gestalt rules mention not being allowed to take two prestige classes at the same time. Did your DM approve removing that rule?

I've seen builds that double-side PrCs, but yeah, I'm familiar with the rule. In my experience, people are willing to be flexible on the PrC rule provided that you're not advancing the same class on both sides. So, for example, I could not take a level of Druid on the left and a level of Moonspeaker on the right at the same time. Same for, say, Warlock and Hellfire Warlock. However, a class that increases features is alright. So, by the latter example, while Warlock // Hellfire Warlock is no good, Warlock // Enlightened Spirit is fine, as is Hellfire Warlock // Enlightened Spirit, because ES does not actually increase your invocations known or effective Warlock level or what-have-you, and while ES adds to Eldritch Blast damage directly, HFW does not. (It does so through an active ability, rather than passively.)

Or something. Gestalt is hard and I'm probably going to have to negotiate for anything Druid-related, because CoDzilla.


You should at the very least have cleric 1 somewhere in the build. If you have turn attempts, you can persist your buffs with Divine Metamagic. Bite of the Werebear lasting 24 hours is good.

Good point, yeah. If I go DMM, I pretty much have to.


1. X = Unarmed Swordsage 2/ Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) 1/ Dread Necromancer 1/ Wildshape Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger) 1/ Master of Radiance 1. Use the Rebuke Dragons ACF in Dragon Magic for Cleric, and trade your free Knowledge domain for Knowledge Devotion in CC. Your alignment must be neutral on the good-evil axis, and this gives you three separate pools of Turn/Rebuke uses. Get the Undeath domain from Cleric for Extra Turning, and that adds +4 uses to each of those pools. Get the Planning domain for Extend Spell and you can pick up Persistent Spell and DMM: Persistent for buffs like Bite of the Werecreature and Stormrage in SC. Wildshaper Ranger doesn't improve your Wild Shape ability, but it gives you Track and Fast Movement. If you can't use the Swordsage's RAW x6 skill points at 1st level, you should put Cloistered Cleric at 1st level instead.

... Da-yum.

Seriously, I should expect nothing less from you, Biff. That's just... Hoo-wow, yeah, plenty of TU-equivalents for DMM. Good call. However, I'm pretty sure you're assuming fractional BAB, because otherwise I'd have to start in MoMF (which does not require BAB) to get the BAB necessary to get into Warshaper, rather than the other way around. But it works nicely.


2. RAW you cannot take two prestige classes together on a gestalt character, so unless your DM makes an exception you'll need to replace the Moonspeaker levels with Druid levels. Gestalt characters cannot double-up on class feature progression, so if two classes taken simultaneously both increase a class feature then you only get the increase that one of them grants. At level 20 your effective Druid level for Wild Shape is 18th: Moonspeaker 5-12 would add +8 but Master of Many Forms 10 adds +10, so you would take that instead and add it to your Druid level.

Ahh, yeah, I was worried about that. See, like I said; gestalt druid is hard.


3. Natural Bond if you can't combine two prestige classes and replace Moonspeaker with Druid, this allows you to get a 'level -3' companion but still count your full Druid level toward its benefits. A Fleshraker (MM3) or Dire Eagle (RoS) are the strongest choices, and you can use Handle Animal to give it the Warbeast template (MM2). Also consider Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a), it says you get an animal cohort separate from your animal companion but you can dismiss both and recruit a new one that benefits from both, which would be especially useful if you keep Moonspeaker as it will continue progressing as you level up. Companion Spellbond is also useful.

But if I can't go Moonspeaker, and instead go full Druid, why not make full use of the Beast Spirit racial substitution level? I mean, some of those boosts are pretty darn useful, and as you mention I could take Wild Cohort.


As above, get Extend Spell and Extra Turning for free from domains, and take Persistent Spell and DMM: Persistent. Your daily Turn/Rebuke uses will be (7+Cha)x3, a Reliquary Holy Symbol adds +6, a Night Stick adds +12, and each additional Extra Turning adds another +12. Just a Night Stick and a Reliquary Holy Symbol with Cha 12 gives you 42 Turn/Rebuke uses each day, which can power six DMM: Persistent spells each day.

Okay. Yeah. I can see how that's insane.


Greenbound Summoning is amazing, and Ashbound is also a good choice. Natural Spell should not be optional, though Master of Many Forms can make it somewhat redundant. Fell Drain Spell for use with spells that deal damage over several rounds can be extremely potent. Frozen Wild Shape will allow you to take the form of a Cryohydra, and with Combat Reflexes and Robilar's Gambit you can make a 12-bite AoO every time someone attacks you.

We're rapidly approaching "I have no idea where I'm going to put all these feats" territory, but wow, good point there.


4. The character will be a god of melee, especially in the form of a Cryohydra or a War Troll with persistent buffs. He can also use spells offensively, particularly crowd controls like Kelpstrand, Wall of Thorns, and Call Avalanche. Plus you can use Produce Flame and it will add fire damage to all your natural weapon attacks per holding the charge on a touch spell, though you won't be able to cast any more spells with that active without ending it.

Get a Metamagic Rod of Extend and a 6th level Pearl of Power. Every other day prepare Energy Immunity twice and use the pearl to cast it three times, using the Rod of Extend on each so they last 48 hours. On the days in between prepare and cast Energy Immunity and Superior Resistance each once and use the pearl to cast Energy Immunity again, using the Rod of Extend on each so they last 48 hours. This gives you constant immunity to all five energy types and a +6 Resistance bonus to your saving throws, for the cost of those two items and two 6th level spells each day.

Hmm. This raises an interesting question. Granted first that Druid, stand-alone, is an awesome class with awesome features that can go straight to 20 and win everything, no PrCs required. Given that the focus of your suggestions seems to be on Wild Shape - and admittedly with good reason - it would behoove me to maximize Wild Shape progression. Taking Moonspeaker hurts that progression, even assuming my DM will allow MoMF to offset it, and even with a Wild Shape Amulet to make up the difference. Would what you suggest, therefore, be better as pure Druid, no Moonspeaker levels at all?


Really, a big part of the problem here is that druids don't have an extremely strong inclination towards builds, primarily for two reasons. First, the marginal benefits from sequential feats in a line drops really fast. So, for example, you take greenbound summoning, and that's amazing, and you take ashbound, I guess, and that's nice, and then, what, rashemi elemental summoning? Which doesn't synergize with greenbound at all. The same goes for wild shape feats, where you pick up one of the major form adders, and subsequent form adders have no synergy with the first, and non-natural spell generic feats tend to suck (if they don't all suck. Seriously, wild feats are terrible, and combat feats just seem like a waste on a druid).

Simultaneously, a druid with a "wild shape build" doesn't usually just stop being an amazing caster, or a great summoner, or the animal companion guy, unless you're specifically trading those things away (which you might be in the last case, and probably correctly). If you seek to play your character in a perfectly optimal manner (and you really can't, to some extent), then there's no one plan, and there's no one place you're going. The best plan in any given situation could be any of the things you've listed, depending on what your character looks like exactly, what resources you have remaining, and what you're facing.

Thus, I'd advise just getting good feats. Easier said than done, perhaps, though not by that much. Get your natural spell, and your big summoning feat, maybe get a form adder and a second summoning feat (probably ashbound, or even augment summoning if you have room), consider tossing in some metamagic, or versatile spellcaster, or even initiate of nature, and maybe even get craft wondrous for good luck, and whaddya know, you've got a feat assignment. You could specialize more than that, but you should only really consider doing that to the extent that you care more about your character's theming than his optimization. On another note, in the same theme, for your list of X possibilities, could the answer just be "yes"? Most of the classes you've listed, as well as cloistered cleric, dip amazingly well.

Hmm... Yeah.

So it sounds like the answers I'm hearing are:

1. Lots of little dips for a TU-equivalent pool to power DMM.

2. Tricky. RAW, gestalt doesn't permit PrC // PrC. Moreover, gestalt doesn't permit parallel advancement. That said, if allowed, it would depend on which levels lacked overlap; I figure if I'm taking MoMF during the first four levels of Moonspeaker, that's advancement +1; if I take them both at the same time, they don't stack, so it's still only advancement +1.

3. Natural Spell, Greenbound Summoning, DMM, Persist (and prereqs if I can't get them for free). If melee focused, Combat Reflexes, Robilar's Gambit, Frozen Wild Shape.

4. Pretty much anything. Primarily melee or summoning. Good to know.

Other things I've learned:

1. Druid is hard. Gestalt is hard. Gestalt Druid is hard.

2. Really, as long as I have (1) good Wildshape forms, (2) upgraded summoning, and (3) a way to buff properly, I'm pretty well set. The rest is icing.

Good to know. Side note, remind me to never gestalt a Druid again.

... This is hard.

[Rebel7284]

You can also make some dips to add X stat to Y bonus. For example, you are likely to have crazy CON when wildshaped. Wouldn't it be nice to add it to your AC?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You can actually make X = Wild Shape Ranger 1/ Cloistered Cleric 1/ Dread Necromancer 1/ Unarmed Swordsage 2/ Master of Radiance 1 of not using fractional BAB. You'll get +1 BAB from Ranger at 1st, +1 BAB from Druid 2-4, +1 BAB from Swordsage 2, and +1 BAB from Druid 6-8, etc.

If you can't do multiple prestige classes together, maybe go Druid 20// X 8/ Moonspeaker 12, where X = similar to what I suggested already, and progress your Cleric casting with Moonspeaker. That gets you Divine Power at level 14, sooner if you use more levels that progress Cleric. See if you can use an adapted version of Seeker of the Misty Isle for Shifters instead of Elves, call it Seeker of the Sacred Grove or similar. Paragnostic Apostle is also pretty good, though I would keep two levels of Warshaper.

[Red Fel]

You can also make some dips to add X stat to Y bonus. For example, you are likely to have crazy CON when wildshaped. Wouldn't it be nice to add it to your AC?

I see Fist what of the you Forest mean.


If you can't do multiple prestige classes together, maybe go Druid 20// X 8/ Moonspeaker 12, where X = similar to what I suggested already, and progress your Cleric casting with Moonspeaker. That gets you Divine Power at level 14, sooner if you use more levels that progress Cleric. See if you can use an adapted version of Seeker of the Misty Isle for Shifters instead of Elves, call it Seeker of the Sacred Grove or similar. Paragnostic Apostle is also pretty good, though I would keep two levels of Warshaper.

Hmm... Now that's an interesting thought I hadn't considered. Druid 20 // Cleric 8 / Moonspeaker 12 is... Actually fairly monstrous. In theory, I could do Cleric 6 / Warshaper 4 / Moonspeaker 10, but I'd lose out on those last two levels... Then again, Warshaper 2 is still pretty juicy on its own...

Yeah, it's a surprisingly simple and clean method. Good call there. And it gets me fuel for my DMM, although admittedly not as much as the elaborate mix you mentioned earlier. But it's clean. I like it.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Hmm... Now that's an interesting thought I hadn't considered. Druid 20 // Cleric 8 / Moonspeaker 12 is... Actually fairly monstrous. In theory, I could do Cleric 6 / Warshaper 4 / Moonspeaker 10, but I'd lose out on those last two levels... Then again, Warshaper 2 is still pretty juicy on its own...

Yeah, it's a surprisingly simple and clean method. Good call there. And it gets me fuel for my DMM, although admittedly not as much as the elaborate mix you mentioned earlier. But it's clean. I like it.

I meant something more along the lines of Druid 20// Wildshape Ranger 1/ Cloistered Cleric 1/ Dread Necromancer 1/ Unarmed Swordsage 2/ Master of Radiance 1/ Warshaper 2/ Moonspeaker 12. If you're not using fractional BAB you'll get +1 BAB per level for your first eight levels.

[sleepyphoenixx]

For summoning either Greenbound or Rashemi Elemental is usually enough. Greenbound is better at low levels, Rashemi pulls ahead by SNA VI. If you're serious about it you might add Ashbound and trade your animal companion away for the shifter ACF to get standard action summons.

Wildshape doesn't really need any feats beside Natural Spell. You can get some utility out of Dragon WS or add Frozen WS for Cryohydra, but by the time those are available you already have access to some nasty plant forms that are perfectly capable for melee combat. Multiattack is an option if your serious about it but hardly necessary and anything more than that is usually a waste.

Metamagic is of limited usefulness, too, unless you want to go blasting. Extend and Quicken are usually enough, maybe add persist if you're getting DMM or another metamagic reducer.

Instead of focusing all your feats on a single specialization you'll probably benefit more from spreading your feats around and taking advantage of the druids innate versatility.
You can also get some of those nice to have feats that usually don't fit into a build, like Mercantile Background, Craft feats or Mark of the Dauntless.

Really, adding MoMF to a full druid gestalt doesn't really add all that much. Standard WS alone is more than capable enough. I'd rather get some passive abilities on the non-druid side, like Swordsage for Wis to AC, stuff like Evasion and Mettle, Wisdom to X classes like Shiba Protector, some way to get more actions like a few levels in a psionic class, Turn Undead for DMM, bonus feats or something that adds skillpoints and more class skills.

[eggynack]

Wildshape doesn't really need any feats beside Natural Spell. You can get some utility out of Dragon WS or add Frozen WS for Cryohydra, but by the time those are available you already have access to some nasty plant forms that are perfectly capable for melee combat.
I don't see how the viability of plant forms in melee combat is particularly relevant to the utility of dragon wild shape (though I can for frozen). Dragon wild shape is almost entirely about having spontaneous access to a massive pile of abilities, ranging from freedom of movement, to enspelled gaseous form, to true seeing, to mini-earthquakes, and a million more. I don't even know if these forms are particularly combat viable, because it's almost irrelevant compared to the options granted.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I don't see how the viability of plant forms in melee combat is particularly relevant to the utility of dragon wild shape (though I can for frozen). Dragon wild shape is almost entirely about having spontaneous access to a massive pile of abilities, ranging from freedom of movement, to enspelled gaseous form, to true seeing, to mini-earthquakes, and a million more. I don't even know if these forms are particularly combat viable, because it's almost irrelevant compared to the options granted.

True enough. DWS can be fairly viable in combat, but less so than the stuff you already get. The options it adds are nice but getting a form feat in addition to full MoMF seems a little overkill to me.
Frozen Wild Shape may be impressive but you need access to huge forms for cryohydra and by that time it's not that much of an upgrade over what you already have unless you have restricted book access.

[eggynack]

Frozen Wild Shape may be impressive but you need access to huge forms for cryohydra and by that time it's not that much of an upgrade over what you already have unless you have restricted book access.
Yeah, I've never quite gotten the point of frozen, in any context. For any druid that can become a crazy cryohydra, they can also become a dire tortoise. The enemies that are difficult for a druid to deal with are going to care a hell of a lot more about your ability to act first than your ability to kill any enemy you can hit.

[PsyBomb]

And here I was just going to suggest a simple Totemist to fill the empty levels. A rampaging Cryohydra is awesome. Give it Pounce and a couple of extra attacks for more awesome .

[Red Fel]

Hold on a tick. With regard to Cleric/ Dread Necro/ MoRad, I noticed that while Cleric and DN each get their own Turn/Rebuke pools, MoRad doesn't get its own. Rather, its levels stack with Clerics for TU goodness. The language doesn't say "You Turn Undead as a Cleric does," the way DN says. I'm not convinced that switching out TU for another form of Turning would give MoRad its own new TU pool. So that's only two TU pools.

With regard to Rashemi summoning, is that necessarily better than the summons Moonspeaker adds to SNA, or the Planar Ally/Gate spells the class gives? Whereas Greenbound will just be a full upgrade to any animals summoned with SNA; admittedly, once I start summoning non-animals, that's a non-issue. That said, high-level SNA can also mean massive swarms of Greenbound animals, can't it?

I'm also starting to see how MoMF doesn't add to full Druid, yeah. Admittedly, MoMF also gives size increases (up to Gargantuan), but DWS can be acquired from a feat, and at Druid 16 I get all abilities of the shape anyway. Shifter Speech is nice, but hardly mandatory.

Still, that Cryohydra... Mmm.

Basically, I'm taking away from all of this that a gestalted Druid's opposite side has little do to with the Druid class itself, as the class is a self-contained boss, and being able to take the full class progression almost obviates the need for other stuff. For other classes, it seems that PrCs add something the base does not; it seems that Druid PrCs almost apologize for detracting from Druid's near-perfect base progression. The opposite side of the gestalt seems to be about the ability to set up buffs (via TU and DMM), and the usual synergies and boosts. And maybe some Warshaper, because Warshaper. It's very... Hmm.

[sleepyphoenixx]

With regard to Rashemi summoning, is that necessarily better than the summons Moonspeaker adds to SNA, or the Planar Ally/Gate spells the class gives? Whereas Greenbound will just be a full upgrade to any animals summoned with SNA; admittedly, once I start summoning non-animals, that's a non-issue. That said, high-level SNA can also mean massive swarms of Greenbound animals, can't it?


Rashemi Elemental Summoning doesn't add new summons, it improves some of the better one you already have.
Orglash Air Elementals are decent blasters, a role that other summons don't really fill that well. Orglash Storm Elementals are even better. Summoning multiple huge elementals that can all use a full CL Cone of Cold is pretty decent burst damage.
The Thomil template turns Earth Elementals into even tougher bruisers.

Greenbound animals added toughness is partially negated by the fact that they are not a valid target for your animal buffs and their Wall of Thorns SLA is not as effective against high level opponents as it is at lower levels. It's still a good feat, but not quite as powerful as it is at lower levels when you're still lacking the spell slots for buffs and access to high-HD elemental summons.

Planar Ally and Gate don't quite fill the same role to me, they're more used for out of combat or specialty tasks. The additional Moonspeaker summons are all low-HD caster types and unsuited as frontline combatants. Also, Moonspeaker is by RAW limited to Shifters, a race that many people shun because of their ability penalties.