Javelins... how much can you do with them?

[Deaxsa]

Just a couple of questions about Javelins. I would post in the RAW thread, but this may be important for some characters in the near future, so i'm posting it here.

1. can you two-hand (or dual wield) javelins? in other words, are they considered light, one-handed, or two-handed?

2. Can you "charge" ala javelin throw event? I don't think this is a rule but what do you think if it were a house rule? Basically you'd have short range chargers (slightly longer with far shot).

3. Do you need quickdraw to gain iteratives with Javelins, or are they like shuriken? if i'm wielding a longspear, and they ARE considered ammunition, can i fire away while wielding the spear as well?

[Warlocknthewind]

Tormtor School from DotU, causes melee transparency, and allows you to throw it after a successful melee strike with as a swift action.

Quickdraw is pretty necessary without Gloves of Endless Javelines.

TWF tree + 5' step + rapid shot + tormtor swift action throw

[Big Fau]

Tormtor School from DotU, causes melee transparency, and allows you to throw it after a successful melee strike with as a swift action.

No no, the real benefit of that feat is being able to Power Attack without taking the penalty at all.

[Warlocknthewind]

I'll bite. How do you manage that?

[nedz]

Presumably a reading of this line

You take no penalty when making a melee attack with a javelin.

[Warlocknthewind]

How dastardly ambiguous! :smallamused:

[nedz]

Dysfunctional I'd say, but it hasn't been brought up in any of those threads.

[Big Fau]

Presumably a reading of this line


How dastardly ambiguous! :smallamused:

Yeah, RAW like that is why we have Pun Pun.

[nedz]

Who's going to add this to the Dysfunctional Rules Thread then ?

[Deaxsa]

Tormtor School from DotU, causes melee transparency, and allows you to throw it after a successful melee strike with as a swift action.

Quickdraw is pretty necessary without Gloves of Endless Javelines.

TWF tree + 5' step + rapid shot + tormtor swift action throw

Okay, so quickdraw is necessary. The shuriken thing is an anomaly. that answers that question. still could use a hand on the first two (especially the first one)

[Warlocknthewind]

One handed.

I believe charge specifies melee

[Deaxsa]

One handed.

I believe charge specifies melee

The second one makes sense, and so does the first one, but do you have sauce on the first one or is that just (completely reasonable) conjecture. Basically, i'd like to create a dude who throws javelins with two hands. Or gets the mechanical benefits of that, if not using a shield. (Which would be a houserule, which is fine. i just wanted to know RAW)

[Warlocknthewind]

Use an atlatl?

Brutal throw + Power Throw

[Deaxsa]

Use an atlatl?

Brutal throw + Power Throw

oh, how i hate power throw. why this is not already a default use of power attack, i'll never know. Also, you didn't answer my question. do you have a source, aka, can you quote raw on javelins being light/onhanded/twohanded?

[Warlocknthewind]

And I believe you won't get an answer that isn't practical conjecture. It's listed simply as a ranged weapon so that is all I can do, make them behave as shortspears with better action economy.v

[nedz]

Well the SRD does say this about them

Javelin
Since it is not designed for melee, you are treated as nonproficient with it and take a -4 penalty on attack rolls if you use a javelin as a melee weapon.
But yes, they are classed as simple ranged weapons.

[HammeredWharf]

The light/OH/TH division is for melee weapons only. The weapons section in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm) says


Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons

This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield a weapon in combat. It indicates whether a melee weapon, when wielded by a character of the weapon’s size category, is considered a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon.

Note the "melee weapon" part. On the other hand,


The wielder applies his or her Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons).

Now, while common sense says a thrown spear is a thrown weapon, spears are melee weapons, so you could argue that you can make two-handed throws with them. As a DM - and a slightly juvenile person, apparently - I'd laugh my backside off to that interpretation and tease you about it for half a year afterwards, but you could try. However, the text is explicit when it comes to javelins.

[yoshi67]

Been looking into javelins for a while. Javelins are lighter shortspears meant for throwing. They weigh less, but have an extra 10 feet to their range increment (20ft for SS, 30ft for javelin). I'm assuming javelins are classed like arrows, in that you don't have a 2H arrow, or a Medium or Large arrow. An ogre would use the same arrow that an elf ranger would, so size or class is not important; they are all standardized. A javelin is a javelin is a javelin... I guess your DM could make a ruling, but I don't think it's necessary.

I have always played that javelins are lighter shortspears and can easily be used one-handed. Someone with 2 weapon fighting (or someone who doesn't mind massive penalties) and Quickdraw can throw multiple javelins with each arm, or a normal character can throw as many as they have attacks/javelins (with Quickdraw of course). There is a feat or weapon trick in a prestige class that allows you to throw a javelin in each hand at the same time.

Javelins are too light and flimsy to make good melee weapons, hence the penalty. If you're looking to make a character that can charge with a valorous weapon to do more damage, and also throw it, get a shortspear or spear. Maybe ask your DM to allow Power Throw as a free feat to everyone with Power Attack since it makes sense. Mine allows it if you are within 1 range increment.

As far as throwing with other weapons I always have changing grip or hand is a free action. You can even hold a 2H weapon in one hand, but you can't use it. My primary character now uses a falchion and if I take a full-round action and the guy goes down on the first hit and there's no one close enough to attack, I hold my sword in my off-hand, Quickdraw a javelin, throw it, and go back to a 2H grip. If your character has a quiver, see if you can't also add a few loops to the outside to slip a couple of javelins in to make them easily accessible and out of the way. My archers/rangers always have at least one so I don't have to take an action to sheathe a sword and then Quickdraw a bow to fire one shot in melee. You could drop a weapon, but who wants to do that? Javelins are great ranged weapons when you're too close to combat to risk pulling a bow but the enemies are spread out enough a full-round action is inefficient. I know I always have something to do with that extra attack!

Here's a link to a thread about optimizing a javelin thrower using prestige classes, associated feats, and magical items and enchantments with some good ideas and more about what a javelin is capable of:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?95279-3-5-Javelin-Thrower-of-Doom

Enjoy!