Ways to force penalties

[sonofzeal]

What are the best ways to force targets to take penalties, regardless of their defences? I'm especially interested in stacking up penalties to saves, to make other save-targetting abilities easier, but any way of forcing penalties is potentially useful.

Off the top of my head....



Hexblade ACF "Dark Companion" - affects an area. Requires adjacency from (invulnerable) companion.
Paladin of Tyranny "Aura of Despair" - affects an area. Requires adjacency.

"Fear" spell - shaken on passed save. Blocked by Fear immunity, Mind Blank, and SR.
"Web" spell - entangled on a passed save. Blocked by... Freedom of Movement?
Many, many rays - various. Require ranged touch attacks, usually blocked by SR.
"Red Tide" spell - everyone in a large area is sickened on a passed save. Blocked by SR.
"Maze" spell - puts someone out of the fight for a bit. Blocked by SR.
"Cloudkill" spell - does half Con damage on a passed save. Blocked by... being undead?
"Forcecage" spell - blocked by Freedom of Movement.
"Holy Word" spell (et al) - blocked by being higher level, and SR.
"Waves of Fatigue/Exhaustion" - blocked by SR and.... Death Ward?

"Fell Drain" metamagic on "Orb" - negative level. Requires ranged touch attack, blocked by Death Ward.
"Fell Drain" metamagic on "Haboob" - negative level. Situationally blocked by Evasion and Death Ward.

"Doomspeak" Bard feat - blocked by Will save, but with excessive DC.


I'll edit more in as they're shared.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The bard feat Doomspeak(CoR) gives a -10 penalty to attacks, saves skill and ability checks on a failed (easily boosted) save.

[Quiddle]

Force cage + dimension anchor
Fell drain + orb spells
Holy word(and it's counterparts)

[LTwerewolf]

Paladin of tyranny's aura of despair

[sonofzeal]

The bard feat Doomspeak(CoR) gives a -10 penalty to attacks, saves skill and ability checks on a failed (easily boosted) save.
Nice one! I guess it's a standard action by default? Lasting for 1 turn gives limited usefulness then, but the penalty's big enough to be abuseable anyway.


Force cage + dimension anchor
Fell drain + orb spells
Holy word(and it's counterparts)
All fair ideas. Is there a thing to put Fell Drain on that doesn't suffer SR and doesn't require an attack roll or save? Haboob maybe? Only Evasion beats that, and only some times. Is there a better one?


Paladin of tyranny's aura of despair
This is exactly the sort of thing I'm looking for. Thanks!

[LTwerewolf]

Waves of fatigue/exhaustion are good as well. Fell drain on the orb spells (orb of cold, orb of acid, etc) is good too.

let's see we've got a few different possibilities.

acid fog
acid rain
anarchic/axiomatic storm
blinding glory
buzzing bee
caustic mire
cloudburst
dust storm
fog cloud
force cage (not exactly what you're looking for, but trap them in one and they'll eventually fail a save)
freezing fog
glitterdust (on save still negates a lot)
ice slick (like grease but better)
ink cloud (fog cloud under water)
magic miasma
sleet storm

then there's the ever popular twin split fell enervation.

[sonofzeal]

What about things that break immunities? That also belongs in this same general category.

Truedeath Weapon Crystal - can crit/SA undead
"Searing Spell" feat - half fire damage bypasses immunity.

[TuggyNE]

Most of this has probably already been mentioned, but the UPS man thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208620) has a fair few ideas.

[Telonius]

Words of Creation feat. Once you know a creature's True Name, you can force it to take a -4 penalty to resist a particular compulsion. Blocked by: ... [EDIT: Nothing, but there are ways to become immune to compulsions generally. If you don't have outright immunity, there is no way to block it]. It's a real pain in the butt to qualify for the feat and research the name.

EDIT2: The same feat can also decrease the target's SR or DR. No block for that.

[Mnemnosyne]

Focalor's aura of sadness gives a -2 penalty to attack rolls, skill checks, and saving throws for things that are adjacent to the binder.

[LTwerewolf]

Fatespinner 5 can give something a -10 to a save.

[Frostthehero]

how about we just maximize shivering touch. 18 dex damage, no save. blocked only by immunities, and SR.

[LTwerewolf]

how about we just maximize shivering touch. 18 dex damage, no save. blocked only by immunities, and SR.

But ability damage is incredibly easy to nullify.

[deuxhero]

Entromancer (I think that was it) can force enemies to reroll. I recall the winner for its Iron Chef stacked it with Paladin of Tyranny, Hexblade and Blackguard to basicly make everything fail their save.

Edit: Entropomancer. I still really like Jorath (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?142470-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-%28As-seen-on-BG%29/page4) and he uses a lot of other stuff you can consider.

[LTwerewolf]

Entromancer (I think that was it) can force enemies to reroll.

Fatespinner also can force a reroll on occasion, both for your group and for enemies.