Preventing further GM sins

[loodwig]

So, I'm new to GM'ing in general, but I decided to seize the reigns with my local gaming group anyway (the present GM wanted a break and a chance to play, and the rest of us could use a break from those characters anyway).

As the group was familiar with Pathfinder, I set the rules to be 25 point buy, almost no alignment restrictions (but no chaotic ass / lawful stupid) and otherwise core. Following Advice from "The New World," I painted a large island nation (roughly the size of New Zealand) complete with all core races, reasonable shipping trade with the rest of the world, nine major cities, six major regions (states?), seven story arcs with major conflicts, and not one but two unrelated big bads. I figure this should be enough of a large campaign to allow a bit of a sandbox and prevent railroading to a point. My ideal situation would be that the players would create the story, as they are the main characters; I would merely define the bounds of the reality they live in.

I just had one problem initially: how do I get everyone together in a way that makes sense? Following the advice of a veteran tabletop player, I had the four people shipwrecked on a nearby island without gear, and they must work together to survive even the most basic encounters. Not wanting to surrender too much more of the campaign, I left the narrative at this.

The first session didn't go as well as I wanted. Players were having a hard time staying focused on the task at hand, encounters were more or less hand-waved due to druid tricks (sharks, bears, and dogs were no match for a lvl 5 druid), and everyone wanted to kill the panicked NPC who managed to survive the storm (lvl 1 commoner who was being threatened to courier a package). One player grumbled about the GM driving the plot, and when the session ended, the same senior player who advised that I shipwreck complained that I was moving other people's pieces on the map.

I'm probably making rookie mistakes (I am a rookie, so that's understandable). I read a few articles and the core rulebook's guide for GM'ing, but beyond that I want to know from seasoned GM's what sins I have committed, what is just grumbling I can ignore, and most importantly what I should do differently next week. Also, are there any specific things or general tips for GM'ing that you guys may know?

Thank you,

[Crake]

Well first off, welcome to the GM table, it sounds like you're quite into it, which is good, you'll need a whole lot of self motivation and drive.

Personally, for the first campaign you run, I probably would have gone with the "everyone knows eachother" background, and had them be locals, or possibly travellers. As for players having trouble focusing on the task at hand, get used to that. There will be a huge amount of sidetracking happening, which you have no real right to prevent, except in the cases where things start to get out of character, or completely off topic, if people start talking about the latest game of thrones episode, feel free to step in and say "ok guys, you can talk about that afterwards, back to the table". We used to have a bit of a thing where if someone noticed that everyone at the table had gone completely off track and out of character (which happened often enough) they would just start tapping their finger on the battle mat. Eventually others would notice and join in until everyone was tapping their finger on the mat, and we'd get back to business.

As for the druid handwaving encounters, well, for animals, that's kinda where the druid shines, you should have really considered that when you designed them, including giving them less XP, because it was significnatly less challenging than it should have been. That said remember that if the druid used spells, he's eventually gonna run out of spells, so anything that expends resources shouldnt be considered handwaved. The party should face approximately 4 encounters inbetween rest periods, so if the druid expended all his spells "handwaving" then rested up before moving on, you should consider throwing enemies at them during that period.

Also, dogs and bears (i'm assuming black bears? or maybe a single brown bear?) against a level 5 party is gonna be pretty easy regardless to be honest. Throw something more powerful at them, or in larger numbers. Also remember that a druid's wild empathy takes a minute to use, or a full round action at a -10 penalty, so if he was using wild empathy to solve the encounters, you should consider that next time.

As for the complaint about moving people's pieces, I'd keep that in mind. Unless someone is out of reach and asks you to move their piece, let the players do it themselves. You already get to do everything for all the other entities in your world, let the players do their thing. Player agency and autonomy is generally considered pretty sacred, and the quick way to get yourself in the bad DM view is to mess with that.

[Mootsmcboots]

Regarding complaints? You should listen, but those guys also need to realize, new DM. It takes time. If they have criticism it should be constructive, and supportive.

If they are just complaining, remind them your DM wanted a break, and had you not stepped up, maybe there wouldn't have been a game. A game with a learning DM is so much better than none at all that's for sure.

Don't let them take you for granted, or try to steamroll you. You seem like you are making a solid effort, and clearly going above and beyond to improve your dming capabilities.

As for moving other player pieces? If it's their turn, fine I could understand. If you are moving them outside of their turn they need to shut up. If a cliff crumbles and a pc falls, you aren't going to ask him to place his mini where you say he lands, just do it.

[loodwig]

Well first off, welcome to the GM table, it sounds like you're quite into it, which is good, you'll need a whole lot of self motivation and drive.

Thank you. I suppose I should accept that being new is part of the game, and not be TOO hard on myself.



...We used to have a bit of a thing where if someone noticed that everyone at the table had gone completely off track and out of character (which happened often enough) they would just start tapping their finger on the battle mat...

I like that. I'm thinking I can learn to be patient, and only tap the mat if we get distracted for more than 5 minutes. All that said, the whole point of any game is a group activity. This is a game where everyone is playing, not my birthday party.



As for the druid handwaving encounters, well, for animals, that's kinda where the druid shines, you should have really considered that when you designed them...

That's a good point. I didn't know we'd have a druid, and I'm frankly not opposed to his cleverness (I thought it was pretty cool). Given how unreasonably difficult the group's previous campaign was plus the fact that we're all unarmed, I figured I'd start easier. I'll ramp up the challenge next round.



Also remember that a druid's wild empathy takes a minute to use, or a full round action at a -10 penalty, so if he was using wild empathy to solve the encounters, you should consider that next time.

D'oh. Had I done the -10, they would all have dog bites now. Again, the guy plain ol' outsmarted me. Roles reversed, I'd be patting myself on the back for being clever. That's the stuff good games are made of.



As for the complaint about moving people's pieces, I'd keep that in mind.
I think going forward I'll make it a point to NEVER touch their mini's unless asked. Perhaps that should just be law, unless game mechanics require that the player was moved (fell of a cliff, etc). Even then, I may say "place your guy here, and you lose 10hp from fall damage."


Re: Mootsmcboots, I think that's a fair point. By and large the group was amenable by the end of the evening, and aside from the player moving bit, no one was really actively complaining. My goal is to win them onto my side and get them to love me as a GM. However, I won't take this as failure on my part either, and understand that their not complaining and only criticizing when provoked is an indicator of acceptance.

[Thorvaldr]

In general, it's very hard to "win" as a GM. If your players keep coming back, then you know you're doing a good job. :P

I started my campaign as a DM about 6 months ago. In the first few sessions I had a huge storm and "herded" them into a cave where they had some very tough fights. They complained a bit about me railroading them into a dungeon, and the fights being too hard. For a half dozen sessions after that I had them in a town with very few fights, where eventually they complained there wasn't enough structure and not enough challenging fights.

So it's something you slowly learn as you go on and find a better middle ground. In general, talk to them after the game, get some input from them, and let them know that you're learning and trying to find a good balance. They'll always probably have some criticisms, never take it personally. Every DM hears it! Take it in stride, learn what you can, and try to have fun with it.

I like your idea for the first session though, that's a fun way to do it! I did something similar my first session (everyone was captured individually by bandits), and at times it was hard to keep the group together. Remember: you're allowed to ask your players for help in that. You can tell them between sessions that you need their help in keeping everything moving forward a bit. They should understand and have their characters act more amiably.

[John Longarrow]

loodwig
Congratulations on coming to the other side of the screen.

What you are listing are a lot of the normal "First session" problems most DMs have. The easiest way to avoid them going forward is to talk (often) to your players about what they like in a game and how you can help make that happen. Be prepaired for different players to have different preferences.

One issue that you do have is lack of gear for the party. Thematically, "You all wake up on the beach without gear" is a fair way to start a game, but each character does need their WBL in gear to be effective in dealing with CR appropriate encounters. For your druid, do they have all of the material components for their spells? Does the wizard have a spell book? Does the fighter have the great sword they built their character around?

Since a character's survivability and effectiveness can be rather dependand on gear, taking it away from them can lead to unbalanced encounters.

A 5th level wizard should be able to rock the world of a 1st level orc. Take his spells away though, and the wizards is (hopefully) at least equal on HPs with the orc, has a worse to hit in melee, does less damage, and has little or no AC. In otherwords the 1st level orc should OWN a scrawny 5th level spell less wizard.

I would recommend getting them out of the "Your naked and gearless" quickly as only a couple types of classes do well in these encounters.

[Crake]

I'll throw this in here, even though it sounds cheesy and lame, but, at least for the first few sessions, at the end of the session, as the players to answer truthfully: Did they have fun? What did they enjoy? What did they dislike?

Those three questions can really help you settle into the GM seat, and I made it a point to ask them of my first group that i DMed. After a while, you can stop, since you get the jist of what people do and do not enjoy, and hopefully at that point, the players are more in character and into the game, so its clear that they're enjoying themselves, or they would have stopped showing up.

This next suggestion probably isnt for every group, but I also talk dnd with my players even when we aren't playing, get them to open up to me about their character, where they see their character down the line and also hopefully by opening up with them like that, they feel completely at ease to come forth with any issues they might have. But, as I said, some people aren't completely 1 dimensional like me, and prefer to talk about things other than dnd from time to time :smalltongue:


Regarding complaints? You should listen, but those guys also need to realize, new DM. It takes time. If they have criticism it should be constructive, and supportive.

If they are just complaining, remind them your DM wanted a break, and had you not stepped up, maybe there wouldn't have been a game. A game with a learning DM is so much better than none at all that's for sure.

Don't let them take you for granted, or try to steamroll you. You seem like you are making a solid effort, and clearly going above and beyond to improve your dming capabilities.

As for moving other player pieces? If it's their turn, fine I could understand. If you are moving them outside of their turn they need to shut up. If a cliff crumbles and a pc falls, you aren't going to ask him to place his mini where you say he lands, just do it.

Honestly, this post sounds very defensive and hostile. Please don't be like that as a DM, the kinds of DMs that immediately turn on defensive mode and constantly remind people that they're the ones DMing and people should be grateful because without them, they wouldnt be playing in the first place are the wooorst. DMing requires flexibility, finesse and tact. Reacting like that to players, no matter how out of line they might be is not how it should be handled. Of course don't be a pushover, but don't act all godly because you're the DM and think everyone should respect you because of it. All of the group members should respect eachother, it's a mutual thing.

[loodwig]

Since a character's survivability and effectiveness can be rather dependand on gear, taking it away from them can lead to unbalanced encounters.

A 5th level wizard should be able to rock the world of a 1st level orc. Take his spells away though, and the wizards is (hopefully) at least equal on HPs with the orc, has a worse to hit in melee, does less damage, and has little or no AC. In otherwords the 1st level orc should OWN a scrawny 5th level spell less wizard.

I would recommend getting them out of the "Your naked and gearless" quickly as only a couple types of classes do well in these encounters.

Oh, I totally agree. I deus ex machina'd a crate with rope & a masterwork greatsword, just because I didn't want the fighter to totally suck, everyone else could make shields, clubs, and staves out of the materials (improvised penalty, of course), and the sorcerer was clever enough to rip his shirt and form a sling. I plan on trying to get either close to or at their recommended gold value in gear by the time they're ready to level up. Amusing as it is in theory, watching a halfling with 5 levels in caster get into a fist fight with a few dogs isn't exactly a recipe for a fun evening (especially if it were to happen more than once).

[loodwig]

I like your idea for the first session though, that's a fun way to do it! I did something similar my first session (everyone was captured individually by bandits), and at times it was hard to keep the group together. Remember: you're allowed to ask your players for help in that. You can tell them between sessions that you need their help in keeping everything moving forward a bit. They should understand and have their characters act more amiably.

That sounds awesome! I might have to steal that idea, if you don't mind.

[loodwig]

I'll throw this in here, even though it sounds cheesy and lame, but, at least for the first few sessions, at the end of the session, as the players to answer truthfully: Did they have fun? What did they enjoy? What did they dislike?

Those three questions can really help you settle into the GM seat, and I made it a point to ask them of my first group that i DMed. After a while, you can stop, since you get the jist of what people do and do not enjoy, and hopefully at that point, the players are more in character and into the game, so its clear that they're enjoying themselves, or they would have stopped showing up.


I really like that idea. Going forward I think I'll do that after every evening. I suppose the one thing I should guard against in that prospect is giving away the quest as a meta-game feature. For example:
"What didn't you like?"
"That freaking guy who kept whining about the magic ring."
"Oh, yeah, don't worry about him."
(next week)
"Hey ring dude. Guess what? Meet my friends, Mrs. Roll Initiative and Mr Power Attack, because you're a pain in my ass and I don't want to worry about you anymore."

Then again, if people are like "Jar Jar Binks" hate towards an aspect of the game, I'd be inclined to murder it solidly just for the fun of it:
"And then an Ancient Dire Gryphon shows up and splits Jar Jar in two before flying away with Jar in one talon and Jar in the other."

[Captainspork]

Giving your PCs a reason to stick together is often the hardest part of starting a new game. Don't get discouraged though, it's something that every DM struggles with, especially at first. You didn't just start in a tavern, so that's a plus :)

Personally, before I start a campaign I sit down with each player and get them to describe their characters to me, in their own words. After that, I help them integrate their characters into my world. Where are they from? How did they grow up? When you work together to make these characters, they become much more believable (and thus more enjoyable for the players). This helps tremendously when trying to tie groups together.

The caveat: I only play with close friends, so this may not be applicable to you. My fallback suggestion: money. Everyone likes gold. My current campaign started with 2 members of the party joining a mercenary group being paid to escort a caravan through a dangerous pass (which, coincidentally, was being raided by the third member of the party). Moral of the story: gold/treasure/etc. can keep a group together, at least long enough for them to form relationships in their own (hopefully!).

Good luck! :smallbiggrin:

[Mootsmcboots]

Crake, there's a difference between assertive and defensive, perhaps it's hard to make clear in text. Also, you make a lot of assumptions, and twist my response, just a wee bit there.

Someone asks for advice, I'll give it. How they use it,how they say it, etc is up to them.

The touching minis thing for instance? As a player, I don't care if my DM touches my mini. He's not dictating my actions. If I complained about that to my DM, I'd feel petty and childish. I'd want to punch me in the face.

Is that how I'd pose that, is that how I told him to react? Of course not, how I talk in a forum post isn't how I DM, it's how I post in a forum. Just as how I communicate at my real life job isn't how I communicate in forums.

[killer_monk]

One good trick to GMing is to create lovable NPCs. Create an NPC that is both helpful and nice. They also need to fill a role that doesn't step on any toes, even if it means they're just carrying treasure for other players or selling them discounted items.

Also, it sounds to me like you're doing quite well! Just keep asking players what they expect and if the adventure is easy or too difficult. I wouldn't mess with their minis if it really upsets them that much. Just let them do their thing.

Good luck and welcome to the GM club! :smallwink:

[jjcrpntr]

I just started DMing pathfinder and when we started I just had a starting city and had all the characters backstorys have them find their way there. The rogue looking for adventure, 2 characters were both escaped slaves (the city was a port town so it made perfect sense).

I just tried very hard to avoid the "you're all in a tavern"

[Crake]

Crake, there's a difference between assertive and defensive, perhaps it's hard to make clear in text. Also, you make a lot of assumptions, and twist my response, just a wee bit there.

Someone asks for advice, I'll give it. How they use it,how they say it, etc is up to them.

The touching minis thing for instance? As a player, I don't care if my DM touches my mini. He's not dictating my actions. If I complained about that to my DM, I'd feel petty and childish. I'd want to punch me in the face.

Is that how I'd pose that, is that how I told him to react? Of course not, how I talk in a forum post isn't how I DM, it's how I post in a forum. Just as how I communicate at my real life job isn't how I communicate in forums.

Sorry, I didn't mean that whole post to be a response to yours. I started off on your seemingly defensive post, then moved on to other kinds of GMs who act like that. I didn't mean to imply that you're like that at all, since I hardly know you, and thus can't really say.

[loodwig]

One good trick to GMing is to create lovable NPCs. Create an NPC that is both helpful and nice. They also need to fill a role that doesn't step on any toes, even if it means they're just carrying treasure for other players or selling them discounted items.


I've made a really annoying NPC so far (spoiler alert: I'm going to kill him quickly), and I have a few others lined up that I want to be less frustrating. I mean, if the players are playing as jerks, I don't know if I have much of a course. But how would you create a lovable NPC? Badass in battle? Helpful? Genre Savvy? Believable?

Getting people to be annoying or useless is not a challenge, and much like the real world: most people aren't overly useful or friendly to strangers. I figure more helpful is fine, but by the same token I don't want to create the wandering bard Dayus formerly of Mokina.

[Red Fel]

I've made a really annoying NPC so far (spoiler alert: I'm going to kill him quickly), and I have a few others lined up that I want to be less frustrating. I mean, if the players are playing as jerks, I don't know if I have much of a course. But how would you create a lovable NPC? Badass in battle? Helpful? Genre Savvy? Believable?

Getting people to be annoying or useless is not a challenge, and much like the real world: most people aren't overly useful or friendly to strangers. I figure more helpful is fine, but by the same token I don't want to create the wandering bard Dayus formerly of Mokina.

This is a dilemma that has plagued philosophers over the ages: "How do I get people to love me?"

As funny as it sounds, it's true - the heart wants what it wants. The players will despise handcrafted lovable NPCs and become obsessed with one-sentence background NPCs with shocking consistency. That's not to say they won't appreciate your work, but rather that players will fixate on what they fixate on, and there's very little way to predict it.

The artistry that a DM develops over time is not to craft lovable NPCs, but to turn any loved NPC into something useful, whether it was designed that way or not. The same holds true of anything on which the players fixate - an old legend, a small town, a crumbled-down castle, a particularly funny-looking rock. Learn to roll with the punches. If the players love it so much, don't consign it to the background; make it a relevant and vibrant part of the world.

The converse is also true. If you spend six hours developing the perfect NPC that touches on aspects of each PC's backstory, is witty and entertaining and goofy and helpful and quiet and obedient and clever and so forth, and does whatever the PCs want including laundry, there's a chance they might hate it. If they do, be prepared for them to kill it, or alternatively to discard it if its presence detracts from enjoyment. You never can tell.