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lordmarcoos
2007-02-07, 09:38 PM
Yes, the Disney movie. I watched it yesterday (for a class actually... long story), and I noticed something i thought interesting.

For the most part, portrayals of villains (and BBEG, likewise) is they have a tendency to be quite authoritative, unyielding, cruel to everyone. That's why it's supposed to be a lot harder to make Evil parties, so we're told.

But look at Jafar and Iago. If it's been awhile, watch the movie again. Two (Probably Lawful) Evil Characters, a sorcerer (more accurately, I'd put him as an Enchanter, but that's not important and he calls himself a sorcerer), and an awakened parrot, who appear to have a quite meaningful friendship. Sure, Jafar's a little overbearing to his clearly less powerful friend, but they joke, they listen to each other, and they stick it out together. The moment Jafar gets the lamp, and wishes for his sultany-ultimate power thing, Iago gets his wish of stuffing crackers in the sultan, and they hang out together on Jafar's throne. I'd even go out on a limb and say that if one of them had the chance to take out the other in exchange for more power, they probably wouldn't do it. They're quite happy together. Anyways, don't really know the point of this thread, I just thought Aladdin would make a great campaign world and that other people might want to look to it for storybuilding ideas. Cheers.

Solo
2007-02-07, 09:49 PM
I remember Iago and Jafar being enemies int eh sequel...

RandomNPC
2007-02-07, 09:56 PM
after the first one Iago joined up with alladin, he realized the good guys usually win.

sorry if that was a spoiler, but i beleive the aladin spoiler(s) has reached its experation date.

off topic what is the experation date on spoilers?

on topic, my partys goin into a desert sooner or later, maybe ill do a litle aladin research.

oriong
2007-02-07, 09:56 PM
Yeah, I'm afraid that theory doesn't pan out in the long run. But right here is the thing:


For the most part, portrayals of villains (and BBEG, likewise) is they have a tendency to be quite authoritative, unyielding, cruel to everyone. That's why it's supposed to be a lot harder to make Evil parties, so we're told.

The reason this is traditionally a conflict in Evil parties is because everyone in the group is of roughly equal power. They're meant to be balanced against each other so it gets rough when you have a bunch of power-hungry bastards who are each capable of killing the other.

In the Iago/Jafar relationship this is not at all true. Jafar, even before the lamp, was so far above Iago that there was no concievable threat there. Iago was an underling and both of them knew it. Jafar wasn't threatened by him at all, so he could relax, and Iago knew that he had no hope at all of 'overthrowing' jafar so there was no compulsion for him to try and harm him.

They weren't an evil party, they were a boss and a henchman. This is the natural relationship of evil individuals, not a party of equals. They happened to share a similar sense of humor and they feel safe together so they can joke and laugh. And sure Iago got his wish to cracker-stuff the sultan, because Jafar probably found it amusing too.

Miles Invictus
2007-02-07, 09:58 PM
And here I thought this was going to be an oblique reference to the Evil Overlord List...

"I will not turn into a snake. It never helps." (http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html)

SpiderBrigade
2007-02-07, 09:59 PM
See, what you're missing here is Iago's long-term plan. After Jafar has succeeded in taking over the kingdom, marrying the princess, etc, Iago will mislead him into believing that his newfound bride is being unfaithful to him with...the Captain of the Guard. This will drive Jafar insane with jealousy and he'll smother her with a pillow. So you see they don't get along as well as you think.

Mewtarthio
2007-02-07, 09:59 PM
If Jafar had really viewed Iago as a friend, he wouldn't have made his last free act "take the bird with me."

Nerd-o-rama
2007-02-07, 10:01 PM
SB: I feel sad that I get that.

Dervag
2007-02-07, 10:09 PM
Iago is probably Neutral or Chaotic Neutral, or maybe Chaotic (mildly) Evil. Most of his goals aren't especially hostile to others. He doesn't really desire anyone's death or anything like that.

Fat Daddy
2007-02-07, 10:21 PM
SNIP...Anyways, don't really know the point of this thread, I just thought Aladdin would make a great campaign world and that other people might want to look to it for storybuilding ideas. Cheers.
Check out any 2e Al-Qadim material you can get your hands on. IMO that is pretty much Aladdin's world. Also, I have always viewed Calimshan in FR to be very much like that as well.

Mewtarthio
2007-02-07, 10:41 PM
Iago is probably Neutral or Chaotic Neutral, or maybe Chaotic (mildly) Evil. Most of his goals aren't especially hostile to others. He doesn't really desire anyone's death or anything like that.

"And then we drop papa-in-law and the little woman off a cliff! Yaaaaaaa ker-SPLAT!"
"Ahahaha! I love the way your foul little mind works!"

Of course, any discussion of Iago depends on whether or not you accept the sequels as canon, since he gets more development in those. Normally, I ignore Disney sequels, but Return of Jafar came out only two years after the original Aladdin. Plus I liked it as a kid, so it can't have been all that exploitative.

lordmarcoos
2007-02-07, 10:43 PM
I must have missed the part where Jafar says "take the bird with me," though you could argue he just wants some company (I know I'm stretching it here).

And Disney sequels are almost universally trash, so i don't really judge my Disney characters based on what they do in "Disney movie 3.6"

And yeah, I know their relationship was a boss/henchman thing, and there's probably a CR difference of about 20 1/2. It just seemed like most villian sidekicks get pushed around, and live depressed, unhappy lives. Jafar and Iago, meanwhile, appear to genuinely enjoy each other's company.

Oh, and Fat daddy, I don't take it there's any chance any of that Al-Qadim stuff got 3.x'ed anytime, did it? either official or someone's (at least half decent) website.

Edit: Silly me making my post and then typing Al-Qadim into google, only to find out that Al-Qadim.com is a website...

Mewtarthio
2007-02-07, 10:48 PM
I must have missed the part where Jafar says "take the bird with me," though you could argue he just wants some company (I know I'm stretching it here).

He never actually says that, but while he's being sucked into the lamp, he grabs Iago and pulls the bird in as well.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-02-07, 11:41 PM
I count Return of Jafar and Rescuers Down Under as the only two good Disney sequels in existence. They were also like, the first two, so I guess that helped.

Even taking that into account, while Iago eventually got tired of Jafar's egomania and bossiness, and subsequently learned the value of friendship and compassion and all that, he was definitely pretty evil to begin with, and got along with his boss a lot better than most evil teams do. The point stands...sort of.

Mewtarthio
2007-02-07, 11:54 PM
Even taking that into account, while Iago eventually got tired of Jafar's egomania and bossiness, and subsequently learned the value of friendship and compassion and all that, he was definitely pretty evil to begin with, and got along with his boss a lot better than most evil teams do. The point stands...sort of.

Well, he's obviously Evil in the first movie; there's no doubting that. If we take the sequel into account, though, you'll note that, once he tires of Jafar, he immediately tries to buddy up with Aladdin, the new heir apparent. This suggests that his comradery with Jafar was only an attempt to ride his coattails, so to speak (hey, Jafar may not have technically been heir apparent, but he was certainly doing a good job plotting it), and not from any friendship or loyalty. Thus, Jafar's LE, and Iago's probably CE (CN at the end of the seque, albeit with a loyalty to Aladdin; I don't think he can ever be considered Good).

Thomas
2007-02-07, 11:55 PM
If Jafar had really viewed Iago as a friend, he wouldn't have made his last free act "take the bird with me."

Sure it would. He's evil ( = selfish), and he only has one friend. Potential eternity alone, or with your only friend? Not a hard choice for someone like that.

It could have been spite, but Evil people are more likely to think of themselves before friends when push comes to shove. (Although they can certainly be capable of love, self-sacrifice, etc., too.)


Check out any 2e Al-Qadim material you can get your hands on. IMO that is pretty much Aladdin's world. Also, I have always viewed Calimshan in FR to be very much like that as well.

Isn't the world of Al-Qadim in Faerūn, too?

daggaz
2007-02-08, 06:14 AM
See, what you're missing here is Iago's long-term plan. After Jafar has succeeded in taking over the kingdom, marrying the princess, etc, Iago will mislead him into believing that his newfound bride is being unfaithful to him with...the Captain of the Guard. This will drive Jafar insane with jealousy and he'll smother her with a pillow. So you see they don't get along as well as you think.


@Nerd-o-Rama, Why would you ever be embarassed for catching a reference to one of Shakespeare's plays? And arguably one of his better ones at that.. Its embarassing the legions of children (and even adults) who don't realize that Disney named an underling evil parrot after one of the greatest literary villians ever composed.

Melrob
2007-02-08, 06:59 AM
Gah... I thought this was going to be about Alladins rug-riding skills.
ermm...that doesn't sound right lol

Anyway, agree 100% with Oriong. Boss/henchman relationship. Just because the players don't see them laugh doesn't mean evil NPC's don't joke and have fun too :)

InaVegt
2007-02-08, 08:22 AM
Does anyone here agree with me that Iago shouldn't be seen as a friend, but as a familiar?

Gezina van den Vechte, Fallen celestial, Champion of Hell

ReluctantDragon
2007-02-08, 08:37 AM
Check out any 2e Al-Qadim material you can get your hands on. IMO that is pretty much Aladdin's world. Also, I have always viewed Calimshan in FR to be very much like that as well.



Isn't the world of Al-Qadim in Faerūn, too?

Actually Al-Qadim was folded into Faerun, when it didn't make it as its own campaign setting with TSR. Which brought about Calimshan and the surrounding areas. Good setting though.

Matthew
2007-02-08, 02:35 PM
Yes, indeed. You can download a couple of products from the Wizards Website for free too (in the Forgotten Realms section). Al-Qadim can also be made to fit the Grey Hawk setting with minimum fuss.

RobbieOC
2007-02-08, 03:32 PM
Does anyone here agree with me that Iago shouldn't be seen as a friend, but as a familiar?


This is what I was thinking also. It makes sense that he would be a familiar. He's just the Arabian version of a raven, which explains why he speaks common, right?

Beleriphon
2007-02-08, 03:41 PM
Does anyone here agree with me that Iago shouldn't be seen as a friend, but as a familiar?

Gezina van den Vechte, Fallen celestial, Champion of Hell

I agree with you there. He's certainly more a familiar to Jafar's sorcerer/wizard/arcance spell caster of some sort.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-02-08, 03:53 PM
Except, of course, for the fact that he has almost as much screen-time and character development as the person he's a Familiar to. More, if you count the sequels. Which has never happened ever in the history of D&D.

Beleriphon
2007-02-08, 03:55 PM
Except, of course, for the fact that he has almost as much screen-time and character development as the person he's a Familiar to. More, if you count the sequels. Which has never happened ever in the history of D&D.

And yet if I were statting up Jafar I'd make Iago a familiar. Jafar is more than a high enough level for Iago to act the way he does using the rules.

lordmarcoos
2007-02-08, 04:03 PM
Although I could understand wanting to make Iago a familiar, I think that's just people too tied into the D&D rules. Flavor-wise, I think he's just way too distinct, too separate. And besides, as V shows, familiars are always just a lame, useless afterthought. Iago's far too cool to be stuck in the same group as weasels stuffed into a bag of holding. My vote's on awakened parrot.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-08, 04:08 PM
You know, that "I will not turn into a giant snake" rule is wrong. Turning into a giant snake DID help. Jafaar was winning. The problem was wishing to turn into a genie.

Crazy_Uncle_Doug
2007-02-08, 04:10 PM
Good thoughts. Iago definitely proves to be the junior partner of the team. Still, throughout the movie he's sarcastic, loud, unpleasant to everyone, even Jafar. Jafar puts up with it for the most part, most likely because he knows he can crush the crazy parrot if he wanted.

Taking on this "learning from Disney characters" theme, I'd like to look at another: The Lion King. There we have villains too: Scar and the Hyenas. Scar obviously holds the same role as Jafar, the hyenas somewhat more useful henchmen than Iago. In the end, the hyenas spell the end of Scar, who was all too willing to try and cast blame on them. Perfect example of the inevitable break-up of an evil party.

Though not entirely so. The hyenas, though evil and willing to be underhanded to get what they want, also stick together as a close-knit pack. They even prove more loyal (if easily distracted) to Scar than he is to them in the end. Of course, once Scar proves false, their retribution is nasty.

oriong
2007-02-08, 04:16 PM
Although I could understand wanting to make Iago a familiar, I think that's just people too tied into the D&D rules. Flavor-wise, I think he's just way too distinct, too separate. And besides, as V shows, familiars are always just a lame, useless afterthought. Iago's far too cool to be stuck in the same group as weasels stuffed into a bag of holding. My vote's on awakened parrot.



I think he's definitely a familiar, just not necessarily in D+D mechanical terms. TSR didn't invent the idea after all.

krossbow
2007-02-08, 04:16 PM
eh, I've seen plenty of shows with evil people who stick together to the bitter end. However, most of those groups do so out of a sense of brothership or familial origin, and in some cases semi-love, but yeah.

Evil parties have to have time working with one another to get any degree of loyalty in.

Mewtarthio
2007-02-08, 04:41 PM
Does anyone here agree with me that Iago shouldn't be seen as a friend, but as a familiar?

Gezina van den Vechte, Fallen celestial, Champion of Hell

If he was a familiar, wouldn't he have lost his intelligence after Jafar died? Heck, in the sequel, he's the one who actively kills Jafar; I don't think familiars are allowed to do that. Cohort, probably.


Taking on this "learning from Disney characters" theme, I'd like to look at another: The Lion King. There we have villains too: Scar and the Hyenas. Scar obviously holds the same role as Jafar, the hyenas somewhat more useful henchmen than Iago. In the end, the hyenas spell the end of Scar, who was all too willing to try and cast blame on them. Perfect example of the inevitable break-up of an evil party.

Though not entirely so. The hyenas, though evil and willing to be underhanded to get what they want, also stick together as a close-knit pack. They even prove more loyal (if easily distracted) to Scar than he is to them in the end. Of course, once Scar proves false, their retribution is nasty.

Yeah, the Hyenas are definately evil as well. I think it's more of a follower-leader relationship than anything else, though. After all, look at the "shadowy place" where the hyenas live: Everything is dark, barren, and dead. If Scar shows up promising them the Pride Lands in exchange for becoming his enforcers and helping him usurp the throne, of course they're going to accept. It's really more of an alliance of convenience than anything else: Scar knows that the hyenas have no loyalties towards Mufasa, and so he doesn't have to worry about anyone blowing his secret; meanwhile, the hyenas get the Pride Lands (which they promptly exploit into barreness, just like their previous home). When Scar shows his willingness to betray them in dire straights, they realize they can't trust him anymore. Of course, the mob devouring was just out of evil spite: They didn't really have anything to gain from that beyond satisfaction.

Say, what ever happened to the hyenas, anyway? I don't think they got intigrated into the Pride Lands society, but nothing is shown regarding their fate. Did they all get killed in the fighting and the fire? Did Simba drive them out afterwards? Did they just sorta leave? Even the sequel (which probably wouldn't be considered canon anyway--a four-year gap may be better than the eleven-year gap of The Little Mermaid or the freaking forty-two-year gap of 101 Dalmatians, but I still think it's too long) doesn't offer any answers.

Dan_Hemmens
2007-02-08, 06:01 PM
And here I thought this was going to be an oblique reference to the Evil Overlord List...

"I will not turn into a snake. It never helps." (http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html)


Damn, beaten to the punch.

Stormcrow
2007-02-08, 06:05 PM
A tad off topic i know but i feel relevant;
What i learned from Aladin was this;

"Hey, do you want everything your heart desires... then go in this cave, its safe, honest, i was just waiting for the right person to come along and go in..." If i hear these words or similar... im not going to help that man.

lordmarcoos
2007-02-08, 06:53 PM
Taking on this "learning from Disney characters" theme, I'd like to look at another: The Lion King. There we have villains too: Scar and the Hyenas. Scar obviously holds the same role as Jafar, the hyenas somewhat more useful henchmen than Iago. In the end, the hyenas spell the end of Scar, who was all too willing to try and cast blame on them. Perfect example of the inevitable break-up of an evil party.

The Hyena's have a totally different role, I'd argue, because of their usefulness. Scar couldn't enforce his rule without the hyena's to help him, and the hyena's clearly lack the leadership skills to take over the pridelands themselves.

Iago, as was mentioned, really can't do much. And even if Jafar and Iago mock each other, they also do compliment each other, and Iago looks up to Jafar, as seen in the scene where he gets the lamp, and fantasizes about Jafar praising him. Jafar, though it doesn't show him doing that, was obviously pleased with the result, and gave at least some credit to Iago, in the form of letting him do the cracker thing with the sultan. And yes, Jafar was probably amused by that too, but I'm sure he had plenty of other things in mind to do with the sultan, but he didn't. And if he really hated having Iago around, he would've killed him any number of times. But he doesn't. Iago's helpful, a little bit, but clearly not necessary, and there wouldn't be much stopping Jafar from replacing him if he really disliked him. It's on those grounds that I argue they have a genuine friendship, not some familiar or follower/leader thing going. Keep in mind also it probably wouldn't be that hard for Iago to fly away and never come back if he really wanted to, I mean, Jafar goes to sleep sometime, and Iago's not always nearby.