Redcloak's future: Place yer bets!

[Professor Tanhauser]

I have a prediction re redcloak: At a critical moment he'll turn around and blast xykon in the back, seeking to take total power for himself and as revenge for being xykon's buttboy all these years.

I could even see a few jokes about how such a hackneyed old plotline took xykon by surprise.

Anyone wanna place bets on this one happening? :smallbiggrin:

[Demented]

Unfortunately, that old betting competition disappeared, last I saw.
This would be perfect for it.

[MReav]

Redcloak has Xykon's Phylactery. He could easily backstab Xykon at a crucial moment when he's down.

Assuming he doesn't eventually roll a 1 for a high level, area effect, blast spell.

[BardicLasher]

Redcloak has Xykon's Phylactery. He could easily backstab Xykon at a crucial moment when he's down.

Assuming he doesn't eventually roll a 1 for a high level, area effect, blast spell.

Oh, THAT would be bad for Xykon. Redcloak rolls a 1 against V, and the Phylactery takes 13d6 Lightning Damage?

[Alfryd]

Redcloak has Xykon's Phylactery. He could easily backstab Xykon at a crucial moment when he's down.
That's a good point. Redcloak must have some very compelling reason to be working for Xykon in the first place. He seems extraordinarily subservient in general too.

[BardicLasher]

Perhaps he simply understands that Xykon's power will be very useful in achieving his goals? The annoyance is probably worth it for having an ally who can cast meteor swarm.

[yenober]

Be afraid, be very afraid!

# 369 Fight!
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0369.html

:redcloak: That's not the "Redcloak dresses in drag paln, right?

:xykon: We'll save that for another time.

[BardicLasher]

I'm entirely in favor of seeing that plan. It's SO gonna be a bugs bunny skit.

[Alfryd]

Perhaps he simply understands that Xykon's power will be very useful in achieving his goals? The annoyance is probably worth it for having an ally who can cast meteor swarm.
Yeah, except that Redcloak's treated as more of an underling and less of a comrade or ally. I dunno, but if my life force could be snuffed out in an instant by a given henchman, I'd be more inclined to respect his every whim. I'm wondering if RC's under specific instructions from his generic evil goblin deity, or something.

[Silverlocke980]

Redcloak has something about him that screams "Important", and it's more than the fact he has a smiley. Whatever he does, I'm eagerly awaiting it.

...Backstabbing Xykon would work, actually, as you put it, because such a hackneyed plot would catch Xykon- evil mastermind extraordinaire- off guard, but a few comics- particularly the one where Redcloak says "But won't some of the hobgoblins die?"- make me think the two are actually surprisingly good friends to be evil-aligned.

On a second note, are both of them Lawful Evil, or Chaotic? Lawful Evil would limit this idea, Chaotic would make it more likely...

[Hephaestus]

Recloak and the Bearers of the Crimson Mantle seem to have a history with the Saphire Gaurd. Perhaps when Xykon reaches the rift in Azure city, Redcloak will destroy the phylatchery and reveal his plan to use the snarl for his own purposes. Of course, Xykon's far to competent to place his only phylatchery in the hands of someone he dosn't treat very well. Yeah you heard me, Xykon might have a second phylatchery and will dramatically reappear later in the series to the surprise of Redcloak and the OotS.

[Iranon]

I suspect Redcloak to be Lawful Evil. He is loyal to his fellow goblins, to Xykon, even to the Hobgoblins at first... and he expects the same in return (see the Miko fight). Which is even more telling considering he should know Xykon better by now.

I'd assume Xykon to be Neutral Evil. He doesn't seem to give a toss about his allies yet lacks the urge to prove his independence of them.

[Ganjuu-kun]

Yes, I would like to see that very, very much.

[Druid]

I've always wondered why Redcloak is workinf for Xykon. I hope the Redcloak isn't the one to kill Xykon, I want to see Roy get his (father's) revenge.

[Copacetic]

That wouuld be freaky hilarous seeing redcloak kill Xykon then saying"By the way I hope you live long enough to go through then hobgoblin ritual.
Yes notice I am in fact of member of the XYKON fan club not the redcloak one

[DomaDoma]

This was a lot more likely to happen pre-hobgoblins, but with Xykon's poor management skills, I could see it coming up again.

[jng2058]

Long term speculation about Redcloak follows...

First, some evidence.

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html) we see the Gods remaking the world, and Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html) we learn that the Goblin and Elven Gods came into being AFTER the world was in place.

We also learn Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html) that if the Gates are destroyed and the Snarl is freed, the Gods are assumed to be willing to undo all creation and start over.

And finally Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0371.html) Miko calls Redcloak a "soulless nihlist who seeks to undo creation." Now to be sure, Redcloak denies it, but is he denying all of it? Or just the soulless nihlist part?

It is my contention that Redcloak, and more specifically his God, actually does seek to undo creation. If the world were destroyed and the Snarl freed, then the Gods would have to work together again to cage him, or else risk being hunted down by it once again. Further, since any disagreement between the Gods while they did so would only strengthen the Snarl or perhaps create a second one, ALL the Gods would have to get a piece of the pie in creating this Third World, just as they did the Second.

All of them.

Including the ones who didn't even EXIST when they made the Second World.

Including, and especially, the Goblin God that Redcloak worships.

Having a hand in creating a new world sure sounds like a better gig than being a minor player in the current one, doesn't it?

While its possible that Redcloak believes that he will be brought back to life by his God as part of the New(er) World, given the way he seems to care about his fellow Goblins and cleary does NOT care about any other race, including his "cousins" the Hobgoblins, I think it would be reasonable to believe that Redcloak would be willing to die to ensure that his people aren't the bitches of the next world the way they are in this one.

And if he gets to wipe out all the races that have treated his kind so poorly along the way? That's just a bonus.

That would explain his anger at being called a soulless nihlist. He's neither soulless, nor a nihlist. He's a MARTYR, giving his all to ensure that his people get to live in a better world as stronger and happier folk.

Note, by the way, that if I'm right, the LAST thing Redcloak wants is for Xycon to actually win. He certainly doesn't want the Big X to actually control the Snarl and rule the world. What he wants is to get close to each Gate and destroy them, so that the world is destroyed.

We're talking a fairly badass cleric who, when he WANTS to fight, is summoning Elementals (in the extended Silver Dragon fight scene in the print version of Book Two), and whipping around Slay Livings (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0149.html), Harms, and Destructions (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0369.html) like they were candy. And yet, in the big battle at the end of Book One that starts Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0105.html), what does he do? He sets out some snacks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0104.html), and Bolsters Undead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0113.html). Once.

No Slay Livings, or Cause Critical Wounds, not even a lousy Hold Person. Nothing. All he does is hang in the background, and when the heroes win (as he wants them to) he books it out the door so he can use Xycon to get to the next gate on the list.

Further, let's think back. Who exactly was it that burned down the forest and destroyed Lirian's Gate?

Oh yeah, it was (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0290.html) Redcloak (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html).

Funny how that works out, isn't it?

My big question is...where do the ELVEN Gods stand on this one? Its one reason I want to see the rumored Xycon prequel book, above and beyond the Xycon and Redcloak hijinx, is to see if perhaps the Elven Gods themselves helped sabotage and burn down Lirian's Gate so that they too can help create the next world. Or maybe they didn't help Redcloak burn down the woods, but maybe they didn't do everything that they could have to stop him, either....



That's my story, and I'm sticking to it!!

[Lord Zentei]

Long term speculation about Redcloak follows...

That hypotheisis makes perfect sense; I've had thoughts along similar lines.

And if some of the current "big players" get offed in the chaos following the Snarl's release (while the goblin deity hides for a bit) so much the better.

[jng2058]

That hypotheisis makes perfect sense; I've had thoughts along similar lines.

And if some of the current "big players" get offed in the chaos following the Snarl's release (while the goblin deity hides for a bit) so much the better.

I'll see your spoiler and raise you a spoiler...

Especially since :redcloak: himself will presumably be in a position to warn his God to get the hell to a dimensional hidey-hole in...well, probably Hell, come to think of it...allowing for some of the other Gods to take the fall.

Let's also recall that Lirian's and Dorukan's Gates were the first ones they'd deciphered out of the diary (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html). Once they had all the remaining Gate locations, who was it who pushed to attack the HQ of the only group who actually knows the score, ie. the Sapphire Guard? Why look, its Redcloak (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0300.html) again....

Yeah, I'd be willing to go up against the Lawyers with this case I'm building. :smallwink:

[Lord Zentei]

I'll see your spoiler and raise you a spoiler...

Especially since :redcloak: himself will presumably be in a position to war his God to get the hell to a dimensional hidey-hole in...well, probably Hell, come to think of it...allowing for some of the other Gods to take the fall.

Let's also recall that Lirian's and Dorukan's Gates were the first ones they'd deciphered out of the diary (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html). Once they had all the remaining Gate locations, who was it who pushed to attack the HQ of the only group who actually knows the score, ie. the Sapphire Guard? Why look, its Redcloak (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0300.html) again....

Yeah, I'd be willing to go up against the Lawyers with this case I'm building. :smallwink:

Verily.

And, of course, the destruction of Lirian's gate was an "accident", according to Redcloak. Sure it was. :smallwink:

[Demented]

This has become a disturbingly plausible theory thread.

[jng2058]

Verily.

And, of course, the destruction of Lirian's gate was an "accident", according to Redcloak. Sure it was. :smallwink:

The madness continues...

To take it a step further, :xykon: may well know that :redcloak: is in it to destroy the world. :xykon:'s jab (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html) at :redcloak: about the fire seems to suggest that awareness. :xykon: may just think that he can take :redcloak: if it comes to a fight for control of a Gate. Of course the fact that :redcloak: is WEARING the trinket that keeps :xykon: animated does make that idea a tough sell...

Just a thought, though.

[Nazzo, the 102nd]

Unfortunately, that old betting competition disappeared, last I saw.
This would be perfect for it.

If you will, here's a linkie (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26243). :smallbiggrin:

Also, I find these theories great. It also involves V's background (because of the elven gods), since we happen to know little to nothing about it... And The Giant said himself on Origins that he choose to depict different parts of the life of the main six characters because one or more of them were gonna play a critical role in the story arc.

Wow. :smallwink:

[The Wanderer]

I rather like Redcloak, and despite the fact that he's slipped a notch or two after coming to be in charge of the hobgoblins, he is by and large a pretty decent guy for being a villain.

Like many I wonder how he and Xykon came to ally. My best guess is that the Crusades from the paladins of the Sapphire Guard took a heavy toll on Redcloak's clan, (he mentioned about losing friends, family, and his mentor to them), and forced them to abandon their territory and seek allies/protection, which came in the form of Xykon.

To add onto that, if that's true then Redcloak would have been younger and more impressionable when he first met Xykon, and probably looked up to the lich at first, which, especially if his alignment is lawful evil, would explain why Redcloak puts up with all the crap he takes from Xykon and all the things he disagrees with. (I.e. rampant disregard for the well being of minions). Therefore, I think it fairly unlikely that Redcloak will turn on Xykon, not unless Xykon does something so out there or betrays Redcloak so badly that Redcloak, say, shatters Xykon's Phylactery in a moment of rage. (That, especially considering Xykon's nature, is a likely scenario).

Also, I don't buy the theory you guys are suggesting, I have trouble seeing the same guy who frequently attempts to look after his followers and is reluctant at first to sacrifice even hated people for his goals as working to undo all of existence. The two traits don't go together very well, unless he's Miko level insane.

I think best case scenario for Red is that Xykon and the Hobgoblin army is defeated but Redcloak remains alive and negotiates a formal truce with/surrender to Azure City. I think it more likely, however, that if Xykon goes down so does Redcloak, (when the top guys go down they tend to drag their subordinates with them), or that even if defeated at Azure City Xykon and Redcloak will keep journeying, since according to the Oracle (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html) Xykon will someday pass within 1,000 feet of Girard's gate. Of course if that does happen, it's still up in the air what his ultimate fate will be.

[KBF]

Well Mr. Wanderer, you wern't paying attention were you? Tch tch tch.


They said that Redcloak may believes he may be brought back to life as a reward, and maybe his goblin freinds too.

[The Wanderer]

Maybe this is just the skeptic in me speaking, but if I knew about the Snarl and was in Redcloak's shoes, I would have doubts about the Goblin God 1) Being able to survive against a force of pure chaos and destruction that eats gods for breakfast and 2) being willing to bring me and everyone I care about back to life after somehow recreating existence. :smalltongue:

Although you are right, I didn't pay as much attention as I should have before addressing it. In fact, I skipped almost all of the conversation because it seemed a bit far out there for me, and because they were taking something Miko said seriously and accepting it as credible. I thought we all knew better than that by now. :smallwink:

[Alfryd]

...yeah you heard me, Xykon might have a second phylatchery...
If so, that would be rather odd for D&D.

I suspect Redcloak to be Lawful Evil.
Oh, clearly.

Including the ones who didn't even EXIST when they made the Second World.
That's surprisingly plausible.


...given the way he seems to care about his fellow Goblins and cleary does NOT care about any other race, including his "cousins" the Hobgoblins...
Actually, he's just less attached. He did *initially* object to sending a patrol of them on a death squad to scout the mountain path, and *still* objects to sailing a ship made of hobgoblin corpses acorss the ocean. He simply reckons that sometimes, for the greater good/evil, sacrifices must be made.

He's a MARTYR, giving his all to ensure that his people get to live in a better world as stronger and happier folk.
I've thought it might be something along those lines, but I don't realistically see how- or why- his God could ensure that the goblin race survives the cataclysm of the snarl's release.

And yet, in the big battle at the end of Book One that starts Here, what does he do? He sets out some snacks, and Bolsters Undead. Once.
That *is* interesting. Scarily interesting. Is Redcloak the true brains of the operation?

...perhaps the Elven Gods themselves helped sabotage and burn down Lirian's Gate...
I doubt the elven deities are quite that Evil.


I would have doubts about the Goblin God 1) Being able to survive against a force of pure chaos and destruction that eats gods for breakfast and 2) being willing to bring me and everyone I care about back to life after somehow recreating existence.
Yes, that's the major problem. But Redcloak may reckon that Gods want worshippers, right? And existing worshippers are more pliant that new converts. Mutual interest?

[MReav]

Actually, he's just less attached. He did *initially* object to sending a patrol of them on a death squad to scout the mountain path, and *still* objects to sailing a ship made of hobgoblin corpses acorss the ocean. He simply reckons that sometimes, for the greater good/evil, sacrifices must be made.

Actually, the second he realized he could have hobgoblins killed, he jumped at the chance. Note later when he had the hobgoblins suit up in mustard and crackers. I think that it's more he still had the goblin followers mindset that quickly changed into the expendable minions mindset he has for hobgoblins.

And the ships made of corpses idea? That may be more impractical, disgusting, and mutiny inspiring. He's got enough wisdom to know that there's only so far you can push loyal minions before they snap, since he's probably on the verge of breaking himself.

[Alfryd]

And the ships made of corpses idea? That may be more impractical, disgusting, and mutiny inspiring.
Nah, to be fair, I got the distinct impression he had a basic conscientious objection. It's entirely possible that he's gotten gradually more evil during the series, but he still has certain limits.

[The Wanderer]

Eh, the ship or corpses thing was almost certainly a throwaway joke rather than a serious idea, even from Xykon.

Also, with regards to the whole debate about Redcloak and the hobgoblins... just because the two peoples are cousins doesn't mean that they have good relations. Just to judge from what Redcloak says, it seems the opposite would be true, which to me makes the fact that he's willing to take the risk of near certain death rather than send a few random NPCs off to their all the more impressive.

(Which is probably more than Roy would do (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0340.html) :smallwink: ).

[skinkatlarge]

Obviously Significant Though Not Particularly Clarifying (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0369.html):

:miko: The bearer of the Crimson Mantle? Here???

:miko: If the Crimson Mantle is this close to Azure City, then the gate is in danger...

1. Redcloak has a title, "bearer of the Crimson Mantle", which suggests some evil group. Though the lack of capitalization of "bearer" might mean that it's more about the cloak than whoever happens to be wearing it.

2. The Guard (or just Miko) know something about the group/cloak that we don't, and what they know suggests that Redcloak's (or possibly just his cloak's) simple presence means the gate is in danger. It seems like Miko/the Guard have reason to believe that the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle wants to destroy the gates/the universe.

3. Shojo, Hinjo, Miko, and the rest of the Guard don't seem to have any idea that Xykon is trying to control the Snarl - they all seem to be assuming that he is trying to release it. Since they are familiar with the botCM (Redcloak's title), but we've seen no evidence that they know anything more about Xykon than Roy's dad told Shojo (if that), they are probably assuming that Xykon and Redcloak share a goal - more evidence that Redcloak's goal is to release the Snarl/destroy the universe. Or so the Guard seems to believe, and they know something about Redcloak's title/position/cult/outerwear that we don't.

It is starting to look like that fire in the forest wasn't an accident. Good call.

On the other hand, I could actually see Redcloak betraying his cloak, cult, and even his evil goblin deity when it comes down to it - he is growing a nice spine these days...

Maybe his slowly nurtured love for Belkar will convince him to save the universe in the end.

[Shattersnap]

My theory is that RC and his crimson mantle gang thinger are a group determined to unleash the snarl, or harness the snarl or whatever. As such, he would share the same objective as Xykon- which is why they are working together. Obviously, Xykon is the stronger of the two due to the face that RC is his servant and not the other way around.

So...I guess I could see RC trying to stab Xykon in the back eventually. Chances are it will fail though.

[Lord Zentei]

That *is* interesting. Scarily interesting. Is Redcloak the true brains of the operation?

I actually hypothesised that at one point: sometime around the All Around the Watchtower arc, if I remember correctly.

[Totally Guy]

I don't see Red Cloak turning on Xykon, he's lost enough friends and family in his past and I think he views friendship quite highly, too highly to turn on Xykon. He's probably clever enough to have considered the "lonely on the throne" scenario associated with villainy.

Xykon is more willing to see Red Cloak hurt but in the end he entrusted his friend with his phylactery so I don't think he's he's going to betray that.

So if the two of them do conquer the world they both benefit if they share and the only other world ruler is the other's friend.

[Alfryd]

...which to me makes the fact that he's willing to take the risk of near certain death rather than send a few random NPCs off to theirs all the more impressive.
Well, yes, right up to the point where he changed his mind. Heck, if it weren't for the probable ambitions of universal genocide, I'd have classified him as LN+ back then.
'Course, by that token, Laura Roslyn's TN at best. I'll just skip that.

I think he views friendship quite highly, too highly to turn on Xykon.
:xykon: "I'm down to my last Goblin, and it's only a matter of time before you kick the bucket."
:redcloak: "I love you too sir."

:redcloak: "Now sir! While she's weak!"
:xykon: "10 Gold on the wacky Kung-Fu chick in round 4, KO."

Redcloak may be loyal, but he's not stupid. Xykon considers him imminently expendable.

[Dectilon]

Nah, I do think so. Xykon just probably doesn't care if he is killed once or twice, but I think he'd ressurect him if he did die, just because he needs someone to share his wit with. : )

Xykon is with all probability so strong that it would be a simple matter. Because of this on the other hand, he doesn't really care about his well-being : ) But that's chaotic evil for you...

[Idless]

make me think the two are actually surprisingly good friends to be evil-aligned.

On a second note, are both of them Lawful Evil, or Chaotic? Lawful Evil would limit this idea, Chaotic would make it more likely...

Please refer to The Giants Villian Workshop...

that should give an idea of how Rich makes villians. Probably goes for his comics as well as his rpg campaigns.


...Idless

[TheOtherMC]

Dear Banjo......this stuff is brilliant! IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW!!!

[valis]

I have a prediction re redcloak: At a critical moment he'll turn around and blast xykon in the back, seeking to take total power for himself and as revenge for being xykon's buttboy all these years.

I could even see a few jokes about how such a hackneyed old plotline took xykon by surprise.

Anyone wanna place bets on this one happening? :smallbiggrin:

Yeah Redcloak wears the phylactery if any thing should happen to him or if Redcloak deicdes to betray him (very unlikely I think) xykon is finished.

[jng2058]

Just to be consistent...

Obviously, people's interpretation of the morality and personality of the various characters varies. One look at the Miko debates that have swirled around these boards over the last couple of weeks should make that clear.

That said, I think that many of the "Redcloak's a nice guy" and "Redcloak wouldn't do <fill in the blank> because he's so nice." are missing one crucial element of the character.

He is the HIGH PRIEST (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0191.html) of an evil Goblin God.

He is almost definitionally the closest thing there is in the OotS world to the personification of the will of that God.

To say that "Redcloak wouldn't do <whatever>" is like saying that Durkon wouldn't surrender and leave his friends to die. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html) But if he believed that Thor told him to (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0201.html), he would do just that.

And Durkon's just a regular cleric, not particularly important in his church.

Redcloak, on the other hand, may even BE the church, and if there are any other surviving members of his order, they all answer to him...and he to his god.

So yes, I do believe that if his god said to Redcloak: "Go forth and destroy the world so that the Goblins may rise agains stronger and more powerful in the next world!" that his response would be "Sir, yes sir, I'll get right on that apocalypse!!"

That is what it means to be the bearer of the Crimson Mantle, and that is why I do believe that Redcloak really is trying to destroy the world.

Your mileage may vary....but that's really the point of the boards. If we all agreed on everything, we'd be a hive mind and wouldn't need 'em in the first place. :smallwink:

In regards to whether the Goblin God could survive the end of the world: Well sure, of course he could. He'd just have to hide in the Outer Planes for a while. Which is exactly how the original three pantheons managed to survive (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html) the Snarl when it took out the Gods of the East.

And since his High Priest would presumably be the one destroying the world, he'd certainly be the one in the best position to know when to run for it. Heck, he might take up residence there once four of the five gates are down, just to be sure he's safe...


That's my story, and i'm STILL sticking to it!! :smallcool:

[Willahad]

He'll die a grizzly in the middle of the battle by either Roy, V, Hinjo, or Miko

[V Junior]

My mum thinks that Xykon's too cool to go out... but... Redcloack's also pretty kewl... idea forming... maybe RC's God will reserect him in the third world, so RC could be the ruler of the one great race, ruled by his God, and all the other races answered to RC, and RC to his God... wow! This is SO apocalpse-type-stuff. Xykon- yer goin down!

[Dectilon]

Is it just me, or are people with cloaks prone to betrayal? : )

[fwiffo]

He'll die a grizzly in the middle of the battle by either Roy, V, Hinjo, or Miko

So, he will gain druid levels and while wildshaped into a bear will be done away by Roy, V, Hinjo or Miko, right?

[Hephaestus]

Is it just me, or are people with cloaks prone to betrayal? : )
Only more proof Hinjo is hiding something from us...

[Sky_Schemer]

We're talking a fairly badass cleric who, when he WANTS to fight, is summoning Elementals (in the extended Silver Dragon fight scene in the print version of Book Two), and whipping around Slay Livings (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0149.html), Harms, and Destructions (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0369.html) like they were candy. And yet, in the big battle at the end of Book One that starts Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0105.html), what does he do? He sets out some snacks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0104.html), and Bolsters Undead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0113.html). Once.

While I don't disagree with your conclusions, I think the above is really more about the differences between the early days of the comic and today. From the FAQ, Rich suggests that the characters were originally envisioned as lower level than he shows them now. Think about the OOtS, too: up until the dragon, the most powerful spell V had tossed around was, what, a fireball?

Since those early days, the characters have all gotten a few level boosts for the purpose of the story.

[TheOtherMC]

While I don't disagree with your conclusions, I think the above is really more about the differences between the early days of the comic and today. From the FAQ, Rich suggests that the characters were originally envisioned as lower level than he shows them now. Think about the OOtS, too: up until the dragon, the most powerful spell V had tossed around was, what, a fireball?

Since those early days, the characters have all gotten a few level boosts for the purpose of the story.

1) hey, dont knock the fireball. Those are some pretty heavy hits it can dish at at mid-high levels.

2) Redcloak is a sub-BBEG, he doesnt level up with the heroes, he's always been that strong.

[Green Bean]

@ jng2058

There's a small flaw in your theory though. If Redcloak wanted all of the gates destroyed, why did he flee Xykon's throne room? He didn't actually know :elan: would destroy the whole dungeon. For all he knew, the OotS knew all about the gate, and were trying to protect it. Otherwise, though, nice theory.

[TheOtherMC]

@ jng2058

There's a small flaw in your theory though. If Redcloak wanted all of the gates destroyed, why did he flee Xykon's throne room? He didn't actually know :elan: would destroy the whole dungeon. For all he knew, the OotS knew all about the gate, and were trying to protect it. Otherwise, though, nice theory.

Well Xyklon was kinda blown up and you cant carry out your evil diety's plans if you're dead so....I would've "lived to fight another day" too...I mean he's with the big bonehead because he needs his power and resources.

[Sky_Schemer]

2) Redcloak is a sub-BBEG, he doesnt level up with the heroes, he's always been that strong.

I'm not talking about leveling through XP. I'm talking about Rich reinterpreting his characters. They are clearly more powerful now than he had originally envisioned, more so than could be explained by leveling alone. It was an Act of Writer.

[TheOtherMC]

I'm not talking about leveling through XP. I'm talking about Rich reinterpreting his characters. They are clearly more powerful now than he had originally envisioned, more so than could be explained by leveling alone. It was an Act of Writer.

Ah, scaling CR, my bad.

[jng2058]

Because I like my theory enough to want to protect it from Giant's Spite... :smallwink:




@ jng2058

There's a small flaw in your theory though. If Redcloak wanted all of the gates destroyed, why did he flee Xykon's throne room? He didn't actually know :elan: would destroy the whole dungeon. For all he knew, the OotS knew all about the gate, and were trying to protect it. Otherwise, though, nice theory.

Thing is, we have to assume that the Self Destruct Rune, like the Air/Fire/Earth Vault Runes and the Gate Rune, were all keyed to the "Pure of Heart" deal. My assumption is that he had one of his guys "accidentally" touch the Self Destruct to no effect (possibly, he touched it himself), and when nothing happened, he knew he needed to get some heroes to do it for him. So leaving the OotS to hopefuly blow the joint was his best bet. If the castle was still there a week later, perhaps he tries to go back and try to lure new heroes into the same situation, but since the castle DID detonate on schedule, he just moved on to the next target.

[jng2058]

Just to keep consistant...




While I don't disagree with your conclusions, I think the above is really more about the differences between the early days of the comic and today. From the FAQ, Rich suggests that the characters were originally envisioned as lower level than he shows them now. Think about the OOtS, too: up until the dragon, the most powerful spell V had tossed around was, what, a fireball?

Since those early days, the characters have all gotten a few level boosts for the purpose of the story.

True, but there are a couple of ways to look at that.

First, taking the magic of Retroactive Continuity, whatever Rich was planning at the time of the fight, it doesn't preclude him explaining what happened the way I have as how he interprets events NOW. In other words, if it was Act of Writer that everyone is now badder-ass, it can equally be Act of Writer to explain what happened in the past to fit into the New and Improved Plotline.

Secondly, even within the context of a lower level Redcloak, he does remarkably little. Unless you want to argue that he's less than 3rd level in that fight, he should at LEAST be throwing out a Hold Person or two...that's a STAPLE of Clerical Combat Routines. Not to mention some Cause Wounds, Curses, Prayers, hell maybe even try a Dispel Magic on Durkon's Thor's Might or Roy's other buff spells.

So even in the underpowered version, I think one could make a case that Redcloak was bagging it and wanted the Order to win that round.

[TheOtherMC]

Seriusly man, "greatest theory ever".

[jng2058]

Seriusly man, "greatest theory ever".

Thanks for the props, m'man. :smallredface:

Now we just sit back and see what happens...it could be years before we know one way or the other.

[TheOtherMC]

Darn, now i gotta keep up with this comic through college. :P