Prestige Classes - mandatory?

[p.d0t]

What's the deal with prestige classes? Every time I'm talking with anyone about joining or starting a campaign, it's one of the first things I get asked about.

Like, I can easily believe that you should usually run campaigns at a level where PrCs become an option, but should you basically jump ship to a prestige class ASAP? Are they always an upgrade, or is it hit and miss?

[eggynack]

Prestige classes are often the best option, but not always. Some classes, particularly druids, get a pile of powerful class features all throughout their levels, and just straight classing them is thus a viable option.

[Psyren]

In 3.5 very few base classes have class features worth sticking around for, and many of the ones that do are frontloaded into the first 5-10 levels. In both cases, there is strong incentive to choose a PrC, especially since most of the good base classes can have their key features progressed by PrCs and they therefore lose nothing.

If you like the idea of just picking one class and sticking with it then Pathfinder might be more up your alley.

[ryu]

What's the deal with prestige classes? Every time I'm talking with anyone about joining or starting a campaign, it's one of the first things I get asked about.

Like, I can easily believe that you should usually run campaigns at a level where PrCs become an option, but should you basically jump ship to a prestige class ASAP? Are they always an upgrade, or is it hit and miss?

Some prestige classes make a class stronger. Some don't. For example look at planar shepherd, incantrix, and good old fashioned dweomer keeper. on the other hand you have the vast majority of caster prestige classes that loss caster level.

[VoxRationis]

Prestige classes are explicitly an optional feature you can do. There's no reason your group has to include them. It's just that GitP treats every option, variant, and splatbook as automatic, 100% acceptable canon for the purposes of their discussions.

[ryu]

Prestige classes are explicitly an optional feature you can do. There's no reason your group has to include them. It's just that GitP treats every option, variant, and splatbook as automatic, 100% acceptable canon for the purposes of their discussions.

That's merely base rationale. If you aren't assuming all official content which parts are to be assumed not in play? All content as base comes when core only is rare these days, and you can't make sweeping assumptions about any given piece of content being more legitimately real than any other.

[Vrock_Summoner]

Prestige classes are explicitly an optional feature you can do. There's no reason your group has to include them. It's just that GitP treats every option, variant, and splatbook as automatic, 100% acceptable canon for the purposes of their discussions.

You know, a lot of people around here do preface their posts with "ask your DM if", especially in relation to variants and non-splatbook stuff. It would be nonsensical to not suggest something on the chance that it might not be allowed.

As for the question... I always like to use PrCs to diversify my character. Class features are better than everything, imho, regardless of if those features are actually mechanically strong. Yes, even spellcasting. Seriously, I've had more fun with Warpriests and Entropomancrers than any straight Cleric, and their class features are barely even class features.

[killer_monk]

Mandatory? No. But they are fun. A player will usually ask because they may have an idea for a PC already, or they may just want to know what you're okay with.

Honestly there's no reason to not allow them. But you also don't have to allow something you don't like.

Hope that helps.

[Pluto!]

They also patch some of the deficiencies of the multiclass system, as dual-concept Fighter/Wizards, Cleric/Psions, Rogue/Sorcerers etc. are all far worse using only base classes than they are using available PrCs.

Except Yathrinshee. We don't talk about Yathrinshee.

[p.d0t]

Out of the PHB classes, which ones benefit the most from upgrading to a PrC?
Which PrCs are the most helpful in that sense (and not overpowered)?

[killer_monk]

Out of the PHB classes, which ones benefit the most from upgrading to a PrC?
Which PrCs are the most helpful in that sense (and not overpowered)?

Probably Fighter. A fighter is okay on his own, but can be really bland by itself. So even if just for flavour, the fighter probably needs it most.

[Techwarrior]

I'd say Monk. At least a Fighter can be competent at something on their own. Monk is just a big pile of fail-meat deep fried in fail-oil and served with a side order of fail-u.

[ryu]

I'd say Monk. At least a Fighter can be competent at something on their own. Monk is just a big pile of fail-meat deep fried in fail-oil and served with a side order of fail-u.

Tippy has proven you can build a straight up mostly monk capable of soloing every elder evil one after another in singles fights. Several different builds in fact.

[Noldo]

One further thing about Prestige Classes is that since many PrCs require that character invest into specified skills and/or feats, but characters get most of their skillpoints and feats over the first couple of levels (a non-fighter human has to pick half of his/her feats by sixth level and single classed character has equal amount of skill points available at first level as over the next four levels combined), one is almost obliged to plan entry into a Prestige Class already at the first level. So it makes sense that players will like to now whether they are included or not as soon as they start to think about a character, even if the PrC would not come on-line until several levels later.

[Rubik]

Tippy has proven you can build a straight up mostly monk capable of soloing every elder evil one after another in singles fights. Several different builds in fact.For example. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15474863#post15474863)

[edit] Also, yes, the prereqs for PrCs require that most characters be planned out from the very beginning, so any time you join a new group, you need to know if PrCs are allowed, and which sources you can pull from. PrCs are worse than feats in that regard, since PrCs often require feats (that often require other prereqs). Some builds need to have VERY careful planning in order to pull off. One misplaced feat, skill point, spell slot, or race or class ability can screw up the character's whole progression, from beginning to end.

Others, maybe not quite so much.

[Zanos]

Out of the PHB classes, which ones benefit the most from upgrading to a PrC?
Which PrCs are the most helpful in that sense (and not overpowered)?
I'm actually tempted to say sorcerer. Not in that it's such a large upgrade, but rather that you lose effectively nothing by taking a PrC as a sorcerer. Just look at their class table. Literally no features besides familiar progression. Many other classes have at least something, however minor, that they lose by taking a prestige class.

There is essentially no metric by which a straight-classed sorcerer is better than a sorcerer with PrCs that progress casting. As for what to take, essentially anything with good caster level progression.

[Vrock_Summoner]

You're mostly right in regards to the Sorcerer, but even with full casting progression, if a sorcerer has to burn all their feats on prereqs and doesn't grab ways to not get their casting times extended for using metamagic, they're in deep crap. So that's a metric of some kind.

[Khedrac]

Typically, the PHB base classes that benefit the most from prestige classes are some of the most powerful - clerics and sorcerers.

Looking class advancement tables they both get no special abilities after 1st level. So - so long as the prestige class advances spellcasting all thy can lose is familiar advancement and turn undead advancement.
Next comes the wizard who gets to lose the bonus feat every 5 levels in addition...

Oddly campaigns destined for epic levels actually make not multiclassing more attractive! Since one needs all 20 levels of a base class to get into the epic version, unless you manage to take all 10 levels of a 10 level prestige class, any multiclassing delays access to bonus epic feats, but hen epic is not well written anyway...

[Sith_Happens]

A large portion of players are going to want to prestige, if for no other reason than there's just so many prestige classes out there that it's pretty much impossible to not find one you like.

[Chronos]

Although, even with cleric, it can be occasionally worthwhile to stay single-classed. One of my characters is a high-level cleric, and Complete Divine was an allowed book, so there were a number of options available that didn't cost much to enter and fully progressed casting. In the end, though, I decided that, for what I was designing the character to do, none of those were really as relevant as just increasing the bonus gained from the Strength domain power.

Still, that's an odd case. Much more often, prestige classes are just a straight upgrade to a character, such that you'd be a fool not to take them. Which is, I think, a flaw in the system: Taking a PrC or not should be a meaningful choice, and there should always be some reason to want to stay base class 20.

[ohil]

I very rarely use them. But what I found is that it will make you really good at one particular thing you do.

I disagree though some base classes are fun to have the whole way through. I have recently fallen in love with scouts.

I have yet to see a good prestige class for them. In a gestalt game we are playing though I went Ranger/Scout with the swift hunter feat.

Now I know wizard/any is truly stronger. But still with the class it self they fit well. In truth if you want to play a prestige play it otherwise play the normal character. You are a bit more generalized than a prestige but you can do a lot more things

[Kennisiou]

Tippy has proven you can build a straight up mostly monk capable of soloing every elder evil one after another in singles fights. Several different builds in fact.

Yes, but it often involves some reading of RAW that a lot of people would not permit (martial monk's prereq free fighter bonus feats allowing stuff like level one weapon supremacy, for example). Also, you say that like you can't make 20 level fighter builds outside of core that accomplish the same. 20 level fighter is Jack-Be-Nimble territory, among other things.

[lytokk]

Most of the time, when my group is getting ready to start a new game, everyone looks for a prestige class they want to play, and build backwards from that. Some people decide to just go single class, but most of the time, look at the PrCs first. Sometimes it helps our characters feel more like individuals when taking a prestige, as opposed to sticking with a base class from 1-20.

[Ansem]

Unless you're an Artificer, you take prestige classes.

[dascarletm]

Out of the PHB classes, which ones benefit the most from upgrading to a PrC?
Which PrCs are the most helpful in that sense (and not overpowered)?

The sorcerer benefits greatly from any PRC that grants full casting. They lose nothing (besides familiar progression, and if that is traded away they lose actually nothing).

[eggynack]

Unless you're an Artificer, you take prestige classes.
That is not accurate. Druids exist, and are perfectly optimal without PrC's, and plenty of classes have nifty capstones. Also, some classes don't have prestige classes that are all that great, like the truenamer. I don't even think most of those truenamer PrC's advance utterances. Also, seriously, you don't necessarily have to take the most optimal path every time.

[RavynsLand]

Pretty much. Couple classes don't need it (druid, initiators, etc) but the majority certainly do.

[Chronos]

Actually, even prestige classes that don't advance familiars mostly advance them more than sorcerer levels do. Familiars have skills, HP, and BAB based on their master's, and sorcerer is bottom of the barrel in all three of those.

[Coidzor]

Out of the PHB classes, which ones benefit the most from upgrading to a PrC?
Which PrCs are the most helpful in that sense (and not overpowered)?

Fighter followed by Sorcerer.

Fighter, because once you've got your starting off feats, actual class features are generally nicer if you have the right PrCs available(though, really, Fighter is more of a dip class).

Sorcerer because they have no real class features to speak of in 3.5, and so they don't really lose anything other than a level of casting progression and that's if they choose 9/10s progression PrCs. Wizards at least lose out on the level 10, 15, and 20 bonus feats, but they're also pretty close behind Sorcerers, and can even afford to lose more levels of casting progression (losing 1 puts them on the same level as Sorcerers, and they can lose 3 to the sorcerer's 2 and still get 9th level spells). Cleric is also in this general ballpark, seeing as how they only really have things based on their cleric level if they've selected certain Domains.

After that I'd say Barbarian, Ranger, or Rogue. Barbarian has some very nice PrCs available to it(much better than the majority of ones that can be entered by a Fighter without multiclassing), Ranger continues to get stuff but it's lackluster on the whole aside from the casting and they can use certain PrCs to progress their casting, and Rogue starts to lose steam in later levels without increasing their bag of tricks somehow, usually by picking up magic.

[nedz]

Beguilers strongly benefit from a 1, then later 3, level dip in a full casting PrC. It allows them to delay their Advanced Learning class feature to select better spells: e.g. Shadow Conjuration. Then there is the Rainbow Servant cheese.

[Graypairofsocks]

Oddly campaigns destined for epic levels actually make not multiclassing more attractive! Since one needs all 20 levels of a base class to get into the epic version, unless you manage to take all 10 levels of a 10 level prestige class, any multiclassing delays access to bonus epic feats, but hen epic is not well written anyway...

On the other hand since at epic levels if you are a caster the prestige classes which lose caster levels become better(as long as your caster level is 21+), as you will lose a lot less than before.

And giving up taking a prestige class before and after epic levels for a few bonus feats is probably not worth it.

[Talya]

Druid, Artificer, and even Bard are worth staying in to 20. (Of the three, Bard can still more easily get "upgraded" by a PrC, but the trade is definitely a trade. It can be worth doing, but you sacrifice a lot by multiclassing out of Bard, and there are reasons not to.)

I might also argue that Single Class Warblade is worthwhile -- but as great as that capstone is, I've never had a campaign hit 20, and multiclassing can be too useful.

Other than that, PrCs usually add flavor, versatility, and power. of those, I value "flavor" the most. A PrC is why the world is not populated by 11 different identical core class types. Not every cleric is alike, nor every ranger.

[Ansem]

That is not accurate. Druids exist, and are perfectly optimal without PrC's, and plenty of classes have nifty capstones. Also, some classes don't have prestige classes that are all that great, like the truenamer. I don't even think most of those truenamer PrC's advance utterances. Also, seriously, you don't necessarily have to take the most optimal path every time.
Specialist > Generalist, there's always a PrC offering more than what you already have.
Venom Immunity is obtained through items, so are the other two later class features and if wildshape is such a big deal why haven't you taken MoMF already :smalltongue: !?

[Socratov]

Druid, Artificer, and even Bard are worth staying in to 20. (Of the three, Bard can still more easily get "upgraded" by a PrC, but the trade is definitely a trade. It can be worth doing, but you sacrifice a lot by multiclassing out of Bard, and there are reasons not to.)

I might also argue that Single Class Warblade is worthwhile -- but as great as that capstone is, I've never had a campaign hit 20, and multiclassing can be too useful.

Other than that, PrCs usually add flavor, versatility, and power. of those, I value "flavor" the most. A PrC is why the world is not populated by 11 different identical core class types. Not every cleric is alike, nor every ranger.

I'd like to add Truenamer and Warlock to this list. Warlock either goes for Hellfire Warlock, or 2 levels of chameleon but works perfectly at lvl 20. Truenamer wants his classfeatures, most notably his 18th or 19th level where he gets conjunctive gate... (sole raison d'être for the Truenamer to exist)

[Talya]

I'd like to add Truenamer and Warlock to this list. Warlock either goes for Hellfire Warlock, or 2 levels of chameleon but works perfectly at lvl 20. Truenamer wants his classfeatures, most notably his 18th or 19th level where he gets conjunctive gate... (sole raison d'être for the Truenamer to exist)

Wait, Truenamers exist????

There's really very little reason to stay warlock 20, when Hellfire Warlock continues your class features, but better. (Of course, then you get tempted to take that first level of Binder...)


Specialist > Generalist, there's always a PrC offering more than what you already have.
Venom Immunity is obtained through items, so are the other two later class features and if wildshape is such a big deal why haven't you taken MoMF already :smalltongue: !?

There is no campaign-neutral* PrC that doesn't cause a loss in power in one of the druid's big three class features. Since even the animal companion --the weakest of the druid's 3 main class features-- is more powerful a feature than anything the druid can get from a PrC that sacrifices it, there's no good mechanical reason to multiclass out.

Now, of course you wouldn't trade Spellcasting for better wildshape. Spellcasting is far more powerful than wildshape. But basic druid gives you both, at pretty much maximum level. You don't need to choose. There isn't any particular PrC that boosts spellcasting throughout all its levels to such an extent that it overshadows the loss of wildshape.

* - Planar Shepherd is Eberron-specific.


Another option that hasn't been brought out, in place of PrCs, is theurge-like feats that merge two base-classes together. (This is more often a replacement for a PrC if you're talking about melee types - spellcasting is too valuable to lose and a feat doesn't generally grant progression in it.) For example: Daring Outlaw (Swashbuckler/Rogue), and Swift Hunter (Scout/Ranger). If you're using those, you probably aren't going to select a PrC (exceptions exist.)

[Chronos]

The epic versions of base classes are completely yawn-worthy, and a few bonus epic feats aren't enough to make up for them. Remember, you can still get epic feats from your regular every-three-levels feat slots at 21, 24, 27, etc., and there aren't all that many worthwhile epic feats. You're much better off taking more prestige classes, or new base classes, rather than ever taking any level of an epic version of a class.

[Talya]

The epic versions of base classes are completely yawn-worthy, and a few bonus epic feats aren't enough to make up for them. Remember, you can still get epic feats from your regular every-three-levels feat slots at 21, 24, 27, etc., and there aren't all that many worthwhile epic feats. You're much better off taking more prestige classes, or new base classes, rather than ever taking any level of an epic version of a class.

Somewhat true, but also generally irrelevant. While few games get to level 20, fewer still go past it.

[Socratov]

Wait, Truenamers exist????
well, yeah, denying them is an affront to the people who have lost the ability to taste ice-cream...

There's really very little reason to stay warlock 20, when Hellfire Warlock continues your class features, but better. (Of course, then you get tempted to take that first level of Binder...)

if you really want to use HFW you will need Naberius or spend a feat on obtain familiar and buy lots of wands of vigor. If you don't want that and rather be focus on your invocations you don't really need to go HFW, even better, you get one more invoking level out of it. and keep your feats free to use whatever you want.


There is no campaign-neutral* PrC that doesn't cause a loss in power in one of the druid's big three class features. Since even the animal companion --the weakest of the druid's 3 main class features-- is more powerful a feature than anything the druid can get from a PrC that sacrifices it, there's no good mechanical reason to multiclass out.

Now, of course you wouldn't trade Spellcasting for better wildshape. Spellcasting is far more powerful than wildshape. But basic druid gives you both, at pretty much maximum level. You don't need to choose. There isn't any particular PrC that boosts spellcasting throughout all its levels to such an extent that it overshadows the loss of wildshape.

* - Planar Shepherd is Eberron-specific.


Another option that hasn't been brought out, in place of PrCs, is theurge-like feats that merge two base-classes together. (This is more often a replacement for a PrC if you're talking about melee types - spellcasting is too valuable to lose and a feat doesn't generally grant progression in it.) For example: Daring Outlaw (Swashbuckler/Rogue), and Swift Hunter (Scout/Ranger). If you're using those, you probably aren't going to select a PrC (exceptions exist.)

well, unless you find an equally theurging PrC

[eggynack]

Specialist > Generalist, there's always a PrC offering more than what you already have.
Venom Immunity is obtained through items, so are the other two later class features and if wildshape is such a big deal why haven't you taken MoMF already :smalltongue: !?
As has been noted, the relevant factor here is casting, wild shape, and the animal companion. MoMF doesn't advance casting, so no, it is not on the list of strictly class improving PrC's. Neither is moonspeaker (loses lots of wild shape and the animal companion), lion of talisid (loses 2 levels of wild shape, and doesn't get much to compensate), contemplative (Loses everything but casting), or really anything that isn't planar shepherd. So, unless you want to explode the game into nothingness with the one strictly better PrC option, then you're a bit stuck in terms of perfectly viable options.


Since even the animal companion --the weakest of the druid's 3 main class features-- is more powerful a feature than anything the druid can get from a PrC that sacrifices it, there's no good mechanical reason to multiclass out.
I don't know if I'd go this far, however. There's a pretty solid number of prestige classes that are reasonably optimal on a druid, if not mechanically superior. The big point, I think, is that you're not really sacrificing the animal companion/wild shape so much as you are weakening them a bit. Basically, there are optimal druid career paths that involve PrC'ing out, and there are optimal druid career paths that involve not PrC'ing out. Such is the nature of things.

[lytokk]

What about arcane heirophant? Isn't that a pretty solid class that advances all the important aspects of a druid in addition to getting high level arcane spells as well?

[Talya]

What about arcane heirophant? Isn't that a pretty solid class that advances all the important aspects of a druid in addition to getting high level arcane spells as well?

Yes.... but barring Precocious Apprentice hijinx, its prerequisites require you to multiclass into at least 3-4 levels of an arcane spellcasting class. So while the PrC itself might progress everything important, getting into it requires taking multiple levels in something that does not.

That said, if you have the ability scores to support it, something like Beguiler 1 w/precious apprentice & obtain familiar, Druid 9, Arcane Heirophant 10 is pretty badass.