How the order might figure out the vampire

[WolvesbaneIII]

Not really, but belker, being more trusted by the group could convince the order to at the very least "be on their guard" when it comes to durkula.

Hear me out. Belker, not knowing how to deal with this, as he's retarded, asks for an enchantment of owls wisdom from varsuuivus. He is wiser now and knows that roy will not strike down the vampire. So he goes along like this-"Roy, at the very least, I beseech thee to at the least, stay on your guard. Expect the worst, but hope for the best. If he is who you hope to be, then so be it. But if he is as I suspect, don't underestimate the unknown."

Or something.

As such, they'd be on the lookout for things that would be out of place for durkon to do, even as a vampire. Like passing up a beer, or disliking beer not even stating as such that it was something he had enjoyed. Or relishing the idea of slaughter, to take no prisoners.

...and owls wisdom wears off and our hero of advanced dungeons and dragons returns to being the instrument of death itself.

[Domino Quartz]

What?? Belkar, more trusted by the group?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Belkar probably wouldn't consider a non-violent course of action, seeing as he believes in using violence to solve all his problems, and seems to only get wisdom buffs when they are forced upon him by others. I'm not sure why the Order would trust him, even in his wiser state. After all, he will be talking about things he decided when he was normal.

[Tiiba]

He would ASK for Owl's Wisdom? And admit that he's an idiot?

Besides, wouldn't Eagle's Splendor work better here?

[Kish]

Besides, wouldn't Eagle's Splendor work better here?
Who is Roy normally more likely to listen to--Living Durkon, who has a Wisdom likely in excess of 20 and a Charisma penalty...or Elan, who is the exact opposite?

[Themrys]

Belkar probably wouldn't consider a non-violent course of action, seeing as he believes in using violence to solve all his problems, and seems to only get wisdom buffs when they are forced upon him by others. I'm not sure why the Order would trust him, even in his wiser state. After all, he will be talking about things he decided when he was normal.

With more wisdom, he might be able to find proof that Durkula is not really Durkon, and find a way to kill the vampire. Then the others kill him, for the perceived murder of Durkon, thereby fulfilling the prophecy.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

With more wisdom, he might be able to find proof that Durkula is not really Durkon, and find a way to kill the vampire. Then the others kill him, for the perceived murder of Durkon, thereby fulfilling the prophecy.

That doesn't really address my point. Just because having more wisdom gives him an advantage doesn't mean that Belkar would take that advantage.

[Comrade]

I'm confused. You're all acting like the OP was talking about Belkar, when the OP clearly specified Belker. :smallconfused:

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I'm confused. You're all acting like the OP was talking about Belkar, when the OP clearly specified Belker. :smallconfused:

That would explain why the OP called him a "hero".

[Kish]

That would explain why the OP called him a "hero".
And referenced Advanced Dungeons and Dragons, too.

Not a proper name, though (it was only capitalized at the beginning of a sentence). So clearly, this is an unnamed belker. Was the belker race actually in AD&D? I've only heard of it in 3.xed.

[WolvesbaneIII]

Yo. I'm just throwing this out there. Belker would use the intestines of his victims to strangle them to death so it would count as a suicide to avoid setting off the mark of justice. If he were not wise enough, why not gain new found knowledge to kill his new arch nemesis?

In fact, his relish for slaughter is so great he petitioned aid from a guild of heroes to take on the "kobold menace" in azure city so as to avoid setting off the mark of justice on another occasion.

Long story short, The belkster wants you dead, you're already a marked man. It's only a matter of time.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Yo. I'm just throwing this out there. Belker would use the intestines of his victims to strangle them to death so it would count as a suicide to avoid setting off the mark of justice. If he were not wise enough, why not gain new found knowledge to kill his new arch nemesis?
I don't know what the rules for strangulation are in D&D, but I feel fairly confident in saying that it would steal be lethal damage, no matter what Belkar uses to strangle his victim.


In fact, his relish for slaughter is so great he petitioned aid from a guild of heroes to take on the "kobold menace" in azure city so as to avoid setting off the mark of justice on another occasion.
I assume you meant Cliffport, right? If so, then he did no such thing. He offered a material reward if someone killed Yokyok. If not, then you are making things up.


Long story short, The belkster wants you dead, you're already a marked man. It's only a matter of time.
The people that Belkar has marked seem to be dead only by technicalities (Windstriker), or have returned (The Oracle, Roy), or are so far still alive (Vaarsuvius). He has limited time to kill them, and I don't think they will die by his hands.

[WolvesbaneIII]

I don't know what the rules for strangulation are in D&D, but I feel fairly confident in saying that it would steal be lethal damage, no matter what Belkar uses to strangle his victim.


I assume you meant Cliffport, right? If so, then he did no such thing. He offered a material reward if someone killed Yokyok. If not, then you are making things up.


The people that Belkar has marked seem to be dead only by technicalities (Windstriker), or have returned (The Oracle, Roy), or are so far still alive (Vaarsuvius). He has limited time to kill them, and I don't think they will die by his hands.

Yeah. Pretty much what I said, but with more accuracy.

[TidePriestess]

The High Priest of Hel probably won't be afraid of trees. That itself may well turn out to be a clue.

[CaDzilla]

The High Priest of Hel probably won't be afraid of trees. That itself may well turn out to be a clue.

But undead are immune to fear

[Kish]

Really? I know a certain Eye of Fear and Flame who would be surprised to learn that.

[TidePriestess]

But undead are immune to fear
Immune to magical fear. We see a fair few examples of undead who feel more mundane fear, like the Eye of Fear and Flame, one of the wights ("He made me feel funny inside!") and, not least, Malack.

[Skorj]

The High Priest of Hel probably won't be afraid of trees. That itself may well turn out to be a clue.

I think it will be far more obvious than that! Durkon understands the game now, and while he's never been the smartest in the order, he has plenty of time to think this through. Everything he shows Durkula from his memories to "help" Durkula's impersonation will be subtly wrong. "Thor's nuts" was just the first clue. Everything will be out of character as much as he can get away with.

And I love this narrative conceit. Done well, it's an excuse to show us all kind of non-typical stuff from Durkon's early years and show some (historical) character development. If young Durkon was different enough that having Durkula act like him will tip Roy off, then we might see how Durkon grew and changed. While character development in story is better than in backstory, I'll take backstory for Durkon. :smallsmile:

[Greatmoustache]

belkar would think "i can see the danger and those with responsibility can't? this is so stupid!" and then "stupid? ok so we need smarts yeah?" and then talk to V. so we'll see that she's already been working on a few spells that are powerful against vampires. not because she feels something's wrong like belkie does, but because it's logical to be prepared and because she's a batman fan. (i mean who isn't?)

also, i think durkon will manufacture fake memories and feed them to the vamp, hoping the order will spot them. at first, these will be only tiny details of really important moments. like i don't know, the weather when he and roy first met, the name of the party the two were in, etc. and as he gets the hang of it, he'll make the vamp "remember" some crazy things, like elan saving roy from bandits or belkar defeating V in chess.

i think he can do these kinda things if he meditates enough.

(also, if we were in the previous book, i'd say that elan was faking this trust and cuddly feelings for the sake of the narrative and waiting for the right moment to act. kinda like this. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0793.html) but i think those days are over. so, no.)

[zimmerwald1915]

(i mean who isn't?)
Firestorm, probably (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0359.html).

[Greatmoustache]

that's just because they are both losing to him in poker and they have never EVAR won against him. (no one has. in anything.)

[pendell]

I suspect the order won't see it coming until Durkula actively betrays them and makes it obvious. At present, the only one who suspects the vampire is the one party member who has zero credibility.

The person who needs to be convinced is Roy. to his credit, Roy has quite high wisdom and intelligence, but zero apparent ranks in knowledge(Vampire).

To know a vampire is an evil soul in possession of a captive body would require -- actually, I don't think there's any way you could pass that check even with an epic rank, because by Word of Giant no one has ever learned this before in OOTSworld.

Some kind of divination or scrying magic? Their divine caster is Durkula. He will tell them nothing.


Elan has neither intelligence nor wisdom. He is likely to realize there is something wrong, but his complaints about Durkula being a "mean meanie-head" are likely to be ignored.

Haley, now .. Haley just might spot it. She's cunning AND good. But her intel and wisdom seem average.

Vaarsuvius has high intelligence, and V can craft divination spells, but I doubt V will start looking until there is some kind of suspicion already.

It's going to take some kind of combination of humility on Roy's part PLUS Elan's goodness PLUS Haley's cunning PLUS Vaarsuvius' intelligence PLUS Durkon's soul throwing out clues from within the body.

I suppose that's technically possible, but confirmation bias implies that any clues will be misread. So the most probably outcome is that the order will remain blissfully unaware up to the point they are betrayed.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[grandpheonix]

Belkar is probably going to tell Roy hes seen vamps before and they all turn on you in the end. Theyre immortal and evil, so why not?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Belkar is probably going to tell Roy hes seen vamps before and they all turn on you in the end. Theyre immortal and evil, so why not?

But why would Roy believe him? He already thinks that Belkar is wrong when it comes to Durkon, why would he listen to him about other vampires?

[grandpheonix]

But why would Roy believe him? He already thinks that Belkar is wrong when it comes to Durkon, why would he listen to him about other vampires?
The same reason he trusts Haley when it comes to theivery and deceit. Belkar knows things Roy doesnt. Not alot of things, but just enough for Roy to believe him. With a few insight checks it may work.

[pendell]

So far as I can tell, Roy trusts Belkar about nothing, and this is reasonable. Belkar is chaotic evil, a liar, and a murderer. That isn't the way to establish credibility even among fellow chaotic evil murderers. After the murder of the Oracle, Roy and Haley seem to view Belkar as an unfortunate albatross whom they are expecting to be relieved of shortly, and whom they will not raise after he is killed.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

The same reason he trusts Haley when it comes to theivery and deceit. Belkar knows things Roy doesnt. Not alot of things, but just enough for Roy to believe him. With a few insight checks it may work.

Roy trusts Haley because while Haley does have her own flaws, she isn't a bloodthirsty psychopath with mental ability score penalties. She is Good, unlike Belkar, and tries to help the party. Also, what does Belkar know that Roy doesn't?

[WolvesbaneIII]

The game grows interesting now, doesn't it? Perhaps the vampire will even become "good" and durkon may even persist that the vampire be left in charge because it would be an even more useful assitance in their quest. If belker can become "good" so can a being of negative energy. Or at least enjoy the company of mortals at length.

[pendell]

The game grows interesting now, doesn't it? Perhaps the vampire will even become "good" and durkon may even persist that the vampire be left in charge because it would be an even more useful assitance in their quest. If belker can become "good" so can a being of negative energy. Or at least enjoy the company of mortals at length.

If the vampire changes to a good alignment, it cannot remain in possession of the body, as it is stolen property. It must , at minimum, release Durkon to full control of his own body. Afterwards they must either attempt to work out some sort of partnership arrangement, or the vampire-spirit must be expelled altogether.

Caveat: It might be reasonable for a good vampire to continue holding an evil mortal soul captive. If Malack had vampirized Tarquin, say, and the spirit in charge of Tarquin's body became good, it would be entirely appropriate to continue to hold Tarquin captive, as releasing him upon the world would do no one any good at all. Think of it like prison, except the "prison" is not a building but Tarquin's own mind.

Makes me wonder: Would magic jar be a way to exorcise a vampire spirit in OOTS world?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[zimmerwald1915]

If the vampire changes to a good alignment, it cannot remain in possession of the body, as it is stolen property. It must , at minimum, release Durkon to full control of his own body. Afterwards they must either attempt to work out some sort of partnership arrangement, or the vampire-spirit must be expelled altogether.
As Jere7my might say, this kind of symbiotic relationship of two sapients sharing a body is not entirely unprecedented in fiction. My personal go-to examples are the Trill from Star Trek, the Tok'Ra from Stargate, and the Yeerk Peace Movement from Animorphs, but I'm sure there are actual fantasy examples as well.

[WolvesbaneIII]

So a vampire can change alignment...

And there is a precedent that the vampire must switch control to it's host? Is that what you guys are saying?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

So a vampire can change alignment...

And there is a precedent that the vampire must switch control to it's host? Is that what you guys are saying?

They are saying that there have been cases before where a host of someone's body forms a symbiotic relationship with the former controller, and that that might be what happens with Good vampires.

[cybishop]

Nothing is impossible, but I really doubt the vampire is going to become good. "Composed entirely of Negative Energy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0947.html)" with capital letters seems pretty unambiguous.

If the vampire gets found out, it'll probably be something mission-related, not personal quirks. For one thing, that's because Durkon didn't have any (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0602.html). Let's not assume the bad guy is so dumb that he can't impersonate such a flat character. (No aspersions on Durkon, the Giant, or anyone else intended.) If vampire spirits couldn't impersonate garden-variety dwarfs credibly, neither they nor Hel would ever achieve anything.

The thing is, he's not just trying to achieve impersonating Durkon and go on with his life. He's trying to bring the world to ruin and drive Thor to his knees (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0946.html). Even if you assume he's only actually focused on bringing Dwarven civilization to ruin, that still is probably in tension with the mission to stop the Snarl. For example, if they wind up traveling through Dwarven lands and leave a trail of bloodless bodies behind, Roy would regard it as a discipline problem at the very least. If Belkar gets suspicious and tries to kill Durkula and Durkula kills him in self-defense, he may be able to convince the team that it was justified, but the team has still lost a good fighter.

But the thing is, we have no idea how long Hel's plan could take. Maybe Durkon's plotline will remain unresolved for all the current book, or longer. The previous book took place over about a month (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?344176-How-Much-Longer-Until-The-End-of-the-Year). The current book could take that long in story time, or longer, without upsetting any precedent or continuity. A sleeper agent going undetected for a month doesn't seem implausible or plot-breaking all by itself, and on the other hand, nor would their discovery in a week. Maybe Hel is patient enough to wait until the Snarl is vanquished, or maybe she wants the Snarl for herself. The end of Durkula might come after the discovery of the true nature of the Snarl, whatever it is. Lots could happen.

So with all the possibilities to keep in mind, I really, really doubt figuring out the vampire will be a matter of Belkar deciding to ask for V's help to improve his own wisdom so he can make a better argument. It's hard to imagine a plot that's more boring and out-of-character.

Note that I said "boring and out-of-character." Admittedly, it would be out-of-character indeed if the order figures out there's something wrong with the vampire because he starts getting all seductive like a more modern version of a vampire. Definitely wouldn't call that boring, though.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

The big problem with spotting the vampire via inconsistencies is that he can explain almost any inconsistency as a side effect of vampirism. Swearing? `I'm evil now, ye plonker.` Different/Better Pronunciation? `Me - sorry, my - intelligence score went up.`Not scared of trees? `see previous.` Not invoking Thor? `I cannae really worship Thor when I'm Lawful Evil.` Not liking beer? `It dinnae really go down me throat like it used to`. And so on and so forth. It would take something really exceptional for the Order to realise he's not Durkon at all. And even then, it's possible Roy wouldn't turn on him just based on that - he still might be `Durkon enough for our purposes`, and he still might be the only (seemingly) friendly high-level cleric available.

So when the sudden but inevitable betrayal comes, I doubt most of the Order will be ready.

[Kish]

Thing is, he's not trying to spin it as "I've changed but you can trust me." He's trying to spin it as, "I haven't really changed." If they notice his accent has changed and he says that his Intelligence score went up, he's not going to have a good answer to "Then why were you faking it for the past (X where X => 3) days?"

Durkon was still always one of the most foul-mouthed members of the Order.

[Roland Itiative]

If they do catch on to his accent, he can just say that all those years living in human lands is finally rubbing off on him. It's not uncommon for a foreigner to take a long time to start getting the local accent.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Nothing is impossible, but I really doubt the vampire is going to become good. "Composed entirely of Negative Energy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0947.html)" with capital letters seems pretty unambiguous.

While I agree that it is unlikely that the High Priest will become good, Negative Energy isn't inherently Evil, so being composed of it doesn't necessarily make you Evil or prevent you from changing alignments.

[Kish]

If they do catch on to his accent, he can just say that all those years living in human lands is finally rubbing off on him. It's not uncommon for a foreigner to take a long time to start getting the local accent.
Coming up with still more "this is how I've changed" excuses* he could make doesn't address the fact that in the narrative he's trying to create, he hasn't changed, and for him to change his story now would be highly suspicious.

*Yes, I realize that the excuse you suggested is unrelated to being a vampire. No, it doesn't make a difference really; the timing is too obvious for even Elan to miss.

[zimmerwald1915]

Coming up with still more "this is how I've changed" excuses* he could make doesn't address the fact that in the narrative he's trying to create, he hasn't changed, and for him to change his story now would be highly suspicious.
If Durkon wants to play up the "I've nae changed" angle, he has the following excuse open to him:

:durkon: "Me accent's ne'er been easy fer non-dwarves ta follow. Rememb'r tha time we met, Roy? Tha wizard e'en called 'is spell ta unnerstan' me 'comprehend inconsistent accents!'"

Or something like that.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

If Durkon wants to play up the "I've nae changed" angle, he has the following excuse open to him:

:durkon: "Me accent's ne'er been easy fer non-dwarves ta follow. Rememb'r tha time we met, Roy? Tha wizard e'en called 'is spell ta unnerstan' me 'comprehend inconsistent accents!'"

Or something like that.

This excuse works very well because Durkon's accent actually is inconsistent. It's difficult to read any changes into it when there's no consistent pattern for how his accent goes.

[Reddish Mage]

Nothing is impossible, but I really doubt the vampire is going to become good. "Composed entirely of Negative Energy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0947.html)" with capital letters seems pretty unambiguous.

If the vampire gets found out, it'll probably be something mission-related, not personal quirks. For one thing, that's because Durkon didn't have any (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0602.html). Let's not assume the bad guy is so dumb that he can't impersonate such a flat character. (No aspersions on Durkon, the Giant, or anyone else intended.) If vampire spirits couldn't impersonate garden-variety dwarfs credibly, neither they nor Hel would ever achieve anything.

The thing is, he's not just trying to achieve impersonating Durkon and go on with his life. He's trying to bring the world to ruin and drive Thor to his knees (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0946.html). Even if you assume he's only actually focused on bringing Dwarven civilization to ruin, that still is probably in tension with the mission to stop the Snarl. For example, if they wind up traveling through Dwarven lands and leave a trail of bloodless bodies behind, Roy would regard it as a discipline problem at the very least. If Belkar gets suspicious and tries to kill Durkula and Durkula kills him in self-defense, he may be able to convince the team that it was justified, but the team has still lost a good fighter.

But the thing is, we have no idea how long Hel's plan could take. Maybe Durkon's plotline will remain unresolved for all the current book, or longer. The previous book took place over about a month (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?344176-How-Much-Longer-Until-The-End-of-the-Year). The current book could take that long in story time, or longer, without upsetting any precedent or continuity. A sleeper agent going undetected for a month doesn't seem implausible or plot-breaking all by itself, and on the other hand, nor would their discovery in a week. Maybe Hel is patient enough to wait until the Snarl is vanquished, or maybe she wants the Snarl for herself. The end of Durkula might come after the discovery of the true nature of the Snarl, whatever it is. Lots could happen.

So with all the possibilities to keep in mind, I really, really doubt figuring out the vampire will be a matter of Belkar deciding to ask for V's help to improve his own wisdom so he can make a better argument. It's hard to imagine a plot that's more boring and out-of-character.

Note that I said "boring and out-of-character." Admittedly, it would be out-of-character indeed if the order figures out there's something wrong with the vampire because he starts getting all seductive like a more modern version of a vampire. Definitely wouldn't call that boring, though.

I think these observation are particularly astute. Belkar in the owl wisdom sketch did not realize his own class powers and the increase in wisdom profoundly changed him in ways that would make light of his subsequent character growth. The owl's wisdom boost was a one-off joke.

The vampire will likely be revealed as he interferes with the OOTS' plans. Durkula may even out himself as part of some villainous monologue, since it is difficult to see any way the order will figure out Durkon's body has a new residence on their own. The Order is unlikely to listen to Belkar even though he is actually suggesting the wisest course of action (further evidence of his character growth and suggesting Belkar will take on a new role in the party in this book).

[Kornaki]

If they do catch on to his accent, he can just say that all those years living in human lands is finally rubbing off on him. It's not uncommon for a foreigner to take a long time to start getting the local accent.

Right as he became a vampire? And remember Durkon's letter as well; Roy knows that Durkon's accent is ridiculously ingrained.

[Zarzar]

I don't think that the Order can actually determine that the vampire is controlling the meat suit. I mean, we are talking about a cadre of imperfect personalities that don't actually do the whole "complex problem-solving" thing. They're more of a "bash in the door, blow the gate" style of party.

Roy won't figure it out because he's too laden with guilt to even consider that his friend's fate is far worse than he thought. Elan's got the IQ of flan (sorry flan!). Belkar can't be trusted due to his stabby personality. Haley and V, the people who one would think would have the best ability to see the minute details that are inconsistent. It feels like they think mostly of Durkon as the walking band-aid box, so as long as the wounds close, they aren't going to be bothering that much about it.

If anything, I'd think that the shocking "moment of truth" would come about from an outsider. Either Hilgaya or Team Evil.

Hilgaya might see the Durkon that is in front of her doesn't remember their night together the same. Durkon probably sees that night as a night of shame, and Durkon might try to hide details regarding the post-coital conversation and let the High Priest infer details wrongly.

As for Team Evil, which I think is the most likely, Xykon will probably casually make commentary regarding the crude nature of soul dormancy under vampirism, and joke about how his capture of Lirian and Dorukan is far more elegant.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I don't think that the Order can actually determine that the vampire is controlling the meat suit. I mean, we are talking about a cadre of imperfect personalities that don't actually do the whole "complex problem-solving" thing. They're more of a "bash in the door, blow the gate" style of party.

Roy won't figure it out because he's too laden with guilt to even consider that his friend's fate is far worse than he thought. Elan's got the IQ of flan (sorry flan!). Belkar can't be trusted due to his stabby personality. Haley and V, the people who one would think would have the best ability to see the minute details that are inconsistent. It feels like they think mostly of Durkon as the walking band-aid box, so as long as the wounds close, they aren't going to be bothering that much about it.

If anything, I'd think that the shocking "moment of truth" would come about from an outsider. Either Hilgaya or Team Evil.

Hilgaya might see the Durkon that is in front of her doesn't remember their night together the same. Durkon probably sees that night as a night of shame, and Durkon might try to hide details regarding the post-coital conversation and let the High Priest infer details wrongly.

As for Team Evil, which I think is the most likely, Xykon will probably casually make commentary regarding the crude nature of soul dormancy under vampirism, and joke about how his capture of Lirian and Dorukan is far more elegant.

I doubt that Durkon would be able to keep Hilgya from the High Priest, even if he hasn't already revealed who she is already. He doesn't seem to get much choice in what memories he reveals. As for Xykon, knowledge of the undead comes from Knowledge (religion) a skill that Xykon most likely lacks in. After all, he thought becoming a Vampire was a preferable fate to selling your soul.

[Zarzar]

I doubt that Durkon would be able to keep Hilgya from the High Priest, even if he hasn't already revealed who she is already. He doesn't seem to get much choice in what memories he reveals. As for Xykon, knowledge of the undead comes from Knowledge (religion) a skill that Xykon most likely lacks in. After all, he thought becoming a Vampire was a preferable fate to selling your soul.

I guess that's the problem with only seeing one memory that Durkon has given openly to the High Priest. It looked like Durkon was trying to obfuscate the exact nature of the memory to mess with the High Priest, and obviously it didn't work. If Durkon were to get better, and he were to reveal the first part of D&H's romantic interlude, or heck, just Hilgaya's name without the ending of their encounter, it might signal red flags. I mean, for all we know, Hilgaya has had a change of heart and is now a Thor-worshipping dwarven spitfire, inspired by Durkon (I think Sabine is a good example of how evil can change sides in the name of love).

As for Xykon, it's hard to get a good read as to what he would do for the sake of comedy gold, as well as what he actually knows about anything. I mean, he understood enough about the death and afterlife to give V an intellectual spanking on the stupidity of soul splices, yet he doesn't know to use magic missiles against the spirits of the Sapphire guard. He's like Belkar, but with access to epic magic, far more horrifying artistry, and even less regard for human life.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I, for one, doubt Hilgya would be in the Dwarven Lands any ways. With that said, it is your speculation, and you can think anything you want.

As for Xykon, all I see is that he knew that the Lower Planes = bad news.

[WolvesbaneIII]

All very good points gentlemen.

So what if Darkon does run into hilgya? Is she smart enough to know what a vampire is? Who is smart enough to know what vampires are?

I propose this: Varsuuivus has declared his knowledge of the undead or so is unmatched. He already knows of what Durkon is and is in the process of making this known, or it is already known and will be revealed as such at a later comic.

By this I mean it will be alluded to over the course of the comic. Small hints will be tossed around. Most won't see it until re-reading the comic in retrospect. The plan to destroy the vampire and raise durkon as a living dwarf is already in motion. Durkulas days are already numbered. It is only a matter of time.

And so I propose an alternate theory on the vampires doom and how he could in time be figured out.

[zimmerwald1915]

I, for one, doubt Hilgya would be in the Dwarven Lands any ways.
Agreed 100%. She had nothing good to say about the place or the people, she liked living in human lands, and nothing Durkon or anyone else said or did to her seemed to convince her otherwise.

[WolvesbaneIII]

Agreed 100%. She had nothing good to say about the place or the people, she liked living in human lands, and nothing Durkon or anyone else said or did to her seemed to convince her otherwise.

On the contrary. She might have given durkons last words to her some thought and over time become a lawful good-ish worshipper of thor. Or a not so evil worshipper of loki. Take your pick.

But I believe that hilgya or at least durkons memories of her when scanned by the high priest could be instrumental in his defeat.

For example durkons sense of duty and any inclination that his dutys aren't being served at 110 percent or a relaxed sense of urgency at carrying them out would be a big wake up call to her.

Or something.

[DaggerPen]

Not really, but belker, being more trusted by the group could convince the order to at the very least "be on their guard" when it comes to durkula.

Hear me out. Belker, not knowing how to deal with this, as he's retarded, asks for an enchantment of owls wisdom from varsuuivus. He is wiser now and knows that roy will not strike down the vampire. So he goes along like this-"Roy, at the very least, I beseech thee to at the least, stay on your guard. Expect the worst, but hope for the best. If he is who you hope to be, then so be it. But if he is as I suspect, don't underestimate the unknown."

Or something.

As such, they'd be on the lookout for things that would be out of place for durkon to do, even as a vampire. Like passing up a beer, or disliking beer not even stating as such that it was something he had enjoyed. Or relishing the idea of slaughter, to take no prisoners.

...and owls wisdom wears off and our hero of advanced dungeons and dragons returns to being the instrument of death itself.


I propose this: Varsuuivus has declared his knowledge of the undead or so is unmatched. He already knows of what Durkon is and is in the process of making this known, or it is already known and will be revealed as such at a later comic.

By this I mean it will be alluded to over the course of the comic. Small hints will be tossed around. Most won't see it until re-reading the comic in retrospect. The plan to destroy the vampire and raise durkon as a living dwarf is already in motion. Durkulas days are already numbered. It is only a matter of time.

And so I propose an alternate theory on the vampires doom and how he could in time be figured out.

I think you may be reading too much into some early installment throwaway lines/gags.

My personal theory:

Durkon will find ways to mislead the HPOH (High Priest of Hel) into slipping up, or he may slip up on his own. This will happen several times, and will be dismissed by the Order each time as he offers a plausible explanation, but with slowly growing suspicion. At a climactic point, they will realize that the HPOH is not Durkon, but he will have already turned on them.His mother may well be involved in this. Durkon will then fight with the HPOH internally, as he has been slowly learning how to resist him, and will manage to seize control, possibly permanently, possibly just long enough for the Order to stake him. If it's the former, he may wind up remaining a vampire due to the time and level crunch and have to fight off the HPOH's attempts to regain control; if it's the latter, his character will have developed greatly, and we'll see him as much more of a character in the final book.

[Duck999]

One way I can think of is Durkon lying. If Durkon eventually gives up or something, and gives Durkula the info he needs, he could lie. After hearing something that would never come from Durkon, the Order might catch on.

[WolvesbaneIII]

One way I can think of is Durkon lying. If Durkon eventually gives up or something, and gives Durkula the info he needs, he could lie. After hearing something that would never come from Durkon, the Order might catch on.

I don't know if that could work. But I think I know what you mean.

Like if durkon were to tell certain...half truths. Such as to say he could state he hates wine and says he hates alcoholic wine and beers with flavoring such as idunno chocolate. Implying maybe he doesn't like -ANY- beer. Not a lie perse', but it could confuse the evil spirit into thinking such is normal not to like beer at all.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I don't know if that could work. But I think I know what you mean.

Like if durkon were to tell certain...half truths. Such as to say he could state he hates wine and says he hates alcoholic wine and beers with flavoring such as idunno chocolate. Implying maybe he doesn't like -ANY- beer. Not a lie perse', but it could confuse the evil spirit into thinking such is normal not to like beer at all.

The problem I see here is that the High Priest of Hel doesn't rely on Durkon's statements, he relies on his memories. And if the High Priest wants to see a memory of what beverage he likes, there's not much he can do to resist. And of course, Durkon is now undead and doesn't eat or drink. :smallbiggrin:

[DaggerPen]

Come to think of it, Durkon has shown facility in the past with misleading people by telling only the truth (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0264.html).

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Come to think of it, Durkon has shown facility in the past with misleading people by telling only the truth (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0264.html).

I think that if Miko could look at Durkon's memories, Durkon's deception wouldn't have worked nearly as well.

[TurtlesAWD]

Given the vampire's complete access to Durkon's memories I am basically of the opinion that if it went around for its entire existence simply pretending to be Durkon, none of the Order would ever wise up to him not being the real deal. Belkar has his suspicions but unless there's interpretations or implications of the Oracle's prediction on him that I'm not aware of, he wouldn't have the remaining time to find ways in which the vampire slipped up.

I suspect Belkar will be key to the revelation that the vampire is not Durkon, but I figure it will also be after the vampire starts enacting its plots and plans. The way I see it there's dramatic reasons for that as well as logical ones.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I think the Order might not figure the High Priest of Hel out until it's too late.

[WolvesbaneIII]

I think the Order might not figure the High Priest of Hel out until it's too late.

Very true. But to throw us for a loop, it could be already known that durkon is possesed and the whole party is waiting for hels high priest to not be of use any more. And then a suitable caster with the appropriate spell to raise durkon will be required.

[Angelalex242]

Or, they could find out the vampire simply by going to the nearest cleric with a resurrection spell.

"Hey, Durkon, we found a cleric so you don't have to be a vampire anymore, we'll have you back to Thor in no time..."

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Or, they could find out the vampire simply by going to the nearest cleric with a resurrection spell.

"Hey, Durkon, we found a cleric so you don't have to be a vampire anymore, we'll have you back to Thor in no time..."

Of course, given how many Clerics can cast Resurrection, that may take a while.

[danielmayer]

Of course, given how many Clerics can cast Resurrection, that may take a while.

Based on spellcasting abilites, maybe. But we have seen even a nameless NPC who could cast several mid-level spells and states that he has a scroll of resurrection... (#602).

[Falker]

Hilgya has no actual reason to be in the Dwarven Lands. SO IS DURKON. That's why i'm betting my money in her 'not-so-sudden' appearance to save the day.

*Also, she can cast Ressurection. One more reason to be her.

[TheMiningDwarf]

While I like the idea of the priest from Greysky city coming back I don't see why he would be in the dwarven lands.. Hilyga returning is at least slightly more plausible if only because the dwarven lands are her home. I don't know if we'll see durkon's mother or not it's pretty hard to tell ages when every male dwarf above the age of like 10 has a full grown beard. Do dwarves get longer lifespans than humans? I don't think so or it would have been referenced in passing in one of the earlier rules parodying strips.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Based on spellcasting abilites, maybe. But we have seen even a nameless NPC who could cast several mid-level spells and states that he has a scroll of resurrection... (#602).
However, he is all the way in Greysky City, and having one more person who has the ability to cast Resurrection still doesn't mean there are that many Clerics.

Hilgya has no actual reason to be in the Dwarven Lands. SO IS DURKON. That's why i'm betting my money in her 'not-so-sudden' appearance to save the day.

*Also, she can cast Ressurection. One more reason to be her.
Durkon actually does have a good reason, now that he has been possessed by the High Priest of Hel. Apparently, Hel's plan requires him to be there (or at least in the North). Even if North doesn't refer to the Dwarven lands, Durkon has shown a strong desire to return to there. Hilgya, on the other hand, hates them. I don't recall her being able to cast Resurrection.

[TheMiningDwarf]

Durkon actually does have a good reason, now that he has been possessed by the High Priest of Hel. Apparently, Hel's plan requires him to be there (or at least in the North). Even if North doesn't refer to the Dwarven lands, Durkon has shown a strong desire to return to there. Hilgya, on the other hand, hates them. I don't recall her being able to cast Resurrection.

If Hilgya follows the same rules as Haley and Crystal do, being Durkon's Evil opposite and all than she should be the same level as Durkon no matter what she does.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

If Hilgya follows the same rules as Haley and Crystal do, being Durkon's Evil opposite and all than she should be the same level as Durkon no matter what she does.

That rule is for nemeses, which Durkon and Hilgya are not.

[St Fan]

Wait, wait, wait... what's with this opening question?

"How the order might figure out the vampire?"

Are you actually taking the position that the Order actually has the slightest chance of figuring out the vampire in their midst isn't Durkon?

This go into extremely unlikely territory. This is the Order of the Stick we're talking about. They turned obliviousness into an art form.

They couldn't even recognize that NALE wasn't ELAN when he disguised as his twin. Including Haley, who was in love with the Bard. If not for Belkar's nose and Elan's return, none of them would have been the wiser.

Not one member are gonna ever suspect anything about the vampire until the High Priest of Hel explicitely spell it out for them. And even so, it will probably require some graphics and a Summon Plot Exposition spell to make it absolutely clear for some of them.

I swear, you guys are vastly overestimating everybody's observation skills here.

[Dodom]

I don't think Durkon could actually lie in this position, but I imagine Durkon feeding Durkula selected memories to let him come to false conclusions about his persona by himself. Maybe he could drive him to imitate teen Durkon - while I don't think he could have been anything but a very tame teen, it'd still be a different man than current Durkon. More likely, a Durkon just a few months behind in development and context.

[Duck999]

There could be a moment where he would have to do something new. Since he has never done it before, Durkula wouldn't know what to do, and there would be no memories since he never did it before. I find that unlikely though.

[WolvesbaneIII]

Wait, wait, wait... what's with this opening question?

"How the order might figure out the vampire?"

Are you actually taking the position that the Order actually has the slightest chance of figuring out the vampire in their midst isn't Durkon?

This go into extremely unlikely territory. This is the Order of the Stick we're talking about. They turned obliviousness into an art form.

They couldn't even recognize that NALE wasn't ELAN when he disguised as his twin. Including Haley, who was in love with the Bard. If not for Belkar's nose and Elan's return, none of them would have been the wiser.

Not one member are gonna ever suspect anything about the vampire until the High Priest of Hel explicitely spell it out for them. And even so, it will probably require some graphics and a Summon Plot Exposition spell to make it absolutely clear for some of them.

I swear, you guys are vastly overestimating everybody's observation skills here.

Haha. Very good point.

[Duck999]

Haha. Very good point.

Sadly, it is...:smalleek:

Though there is always the chance someone casts Dispel Obliviousness, or a crew member notices, though they don't know Durkon that well, so....

[pseudom]

What if Roy chipped Dorkula with his sword? Would it reflexibly curse something about Hel? Its plausible that its not used to pain. (Xykon wasn't used to feeling pain)

[Jaxzan Proditor]

What if Roy chipped Dorkula with his sword? Would it reflexibly curse something about Hel? Its plausible that its not used to pain. (Xykon wasn't used to feeling pain)

Since he has Durkon's memories, probably not. And even then, he's probably smart enough to use another Thor swear. I'm not sure why Roy would hit Durkon, though.

[Porthos]

Not one member are gonna ever suspect anything about the vampire until the High Priest of Hel explicitely spell it out for them. And even so, it will probably require some graphics and a Summon Plot Exposition spell to make it absolutely clear for some of them.

I swear, you guys are vastly overestimating everybody's observation skills here.

I might remind that Belkar is Captain Cassandra right now in regards to the HPoH.

Even beyond Belkar, I'll take that bet though. I won't even ask for odds. :smallwink:

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I might remind that Belkar is Captain Cassandra right now in regards to the HPoH.

Even beyond Belkar, I'll take that bet though. I won't even ask for odds. :smallwink:

Speaking of Belkar, I wonder if he smells something wrong about Durkon, sort of like something was off with Nale.

[Hamste]

I still think Belkar thinks something is up. That face he had when Durkon said Thor's nuts seemed to suggest he suspected something(of course, it could just as easily be about the lightning). What is more it could be another opportunity for Roy to assume Belkar is not trustworthy which will ultimately be used with Belkar's kindness towards animals to help strengthen Belkar's character development.

[WolvesbaneIII]

I still think Belkar thinks something is up. That face he had when Durkon said Thor's nuts seemed to suggest he suspected something(of course, it could just as easily be about the lightning). What is more it could be another opportunity for Roy to assume Belkar is not trustworthy which will ultimately be used with Belkar's kindness towards animals to help strengthen Belkar's character development.

Ooh. I hadn't considered that.

[veti]

Speaking of Belkar, I wonder if he smells something wrong about Durkon, sort of like something was off with Nale.

If Durkon were trying to hide the fact that he's a freakin' vampire now, then - yeah, I'm sure Belkar could detect that.

But the original-soul-being-trapped thing? I don't think even the Belkster's nose is that good.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

If Durkon were trying to hide the fact that he's a freakin' vampire now, then - yeah, I'm sure Belkar could detect that.

But the original-soul-being-trapped thing? I don't think even the Belkster's nose is that good.

Yeah, probably not. Belkar's suspicions of Durkon may stem from what he saw him do when he was a thrall, then.

[ReaderAt2046]

Well, the new strip seems to have given us another thread for the Order to follow. Now they'll have to wonder why Thor is trying to blow up his own cleric, and that may lead them to guess that Durkon is now under the control of a worshipper of Hel.

[WolvesbaneIII]

Well, the new strip seems to have given us another thread for the Order to follow. Now they'll have to wonder why Thor is trying to blow up his own cleric, and that may lead them to guess that Durkon is now under the control of a worshipper of Hel.

Heh heh. So true.

:haley: Durkon! Pray to thor for better weather!

:durkon:...No? It be thor's will. We beh raight ah' rain. Mebbe we could tae' a pit stop lass? :eek:

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Well, the new strip seems to have given us another thread for the Order to follow. Now they'll have to wonder why Thor is trying to blow up his own cleric, and that may lead them to guess that Durkon is now under the control of a worshipper of Hel.

Yeah, the Order might be able to piece things together. Unless the High Priest of Hel thinks quickly and bluffs his way out.

[WindStruck]

Good thing vampires get that charisma bonus! :smalltongue:

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Good thing vampires get that charisma bonus! :smalltongue:

Not to mention they have a racial bonus to Bluff.

[Duck999]

Not to mention they have a racial bonus to Bluff.

Don't forget about circumstantial bonuses though.:smalltongue:

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Don't forget about circumstantial bonuses though.:smalltongue:

Well, this particular circumstance isn't to bad. People have already come up with several excuses the High Priest of Hel could use (although Belkar probably won't be fooled).

[Jay R]

So, did somebody pick, "Because Thor can control weather and Hel can't", or is it time to admit we can't predict what Rich is doing?

[Mathalor]

This whole thread confuses me.

Durkon admits openly to being an evil vampire. Even if that were accomplished through some other means than forceful subjugation of the soul by an outside entity, it would still mandate a change in worldview. I'm a bit surprised that no one has asked Durkon what being evil means to him, or to explain his new ethos. And of course his religion has changed. If it was a corrupted Durkon, I'd expect him to be subverting his God's views, like Miko only more selfish and conscious of his actions. The only way that the comic characters could reasonably tell that it was an evil spirit and not some corrupted form of their friend was if somebody told them. Someone believable. Even if that happened, it may not make much difference. They are fighting against a world destroying superpower and have a powerful yet openly evil ally. I mean two openly evil allies. Durkon isn't putting up a pretense because they'll kick him out of the group otherwise, he's putting up a pretense to ease his inevitable betrayal. Unless this is some quirky coming of age thing that all vampires do, I can't see any other reason why he'd even bother.

Not only does it confuse me that the people in this thread think that there will ever be any deductions leading anywhere as to why 'all of a sudden evil' Durkon is not acting exactly like, 'religiously and fervently devoted to all things Thor with special emphasis on law and good' Durkon, I don't get what the comic characters are expecting from Durkon right now, and why they're staring at him. Durkon is an openly evil vampire. Of course Thor is pissed off. Why didn't they realize beforehand that of course this would happen?

[Angelalex242]

To be fair, Thor is personally trying to tell the party that his former cleric should be put down post haste. There isn't anyone more credible then an actual deity.

[Mathalor]

Hey, there's another thing to think about, right there. Thor knows what the Snarl is, can't or won't intervene, and knows directly what is at stake. Why's he tearing up the ship? If he really wants Durkon back enough to jeopardize the anti-snarl mission, he should be angrily beating on Hel's door, or shooting lightning and other obstacles directly at Durkon, not shooting lightning at an airship carrying a flying creature's friends. Maybe he needs them to land somewhere else and can't communicate through the cleric anymore. Or maybe he's drunk again.

[Angelalex242]

Thor has the highest strength score in Asgard.

Nobody said he had the highest wisdom or int scores.

[DaggerPen]

I might remind that Belkar is Captain Cassandra right now in regards to the HPoH.

Even beyond Belkar, I'll take that bet though. I won't even ask for odds. :smallwink:

It's kind of funny how Belkar has been the first to identify the imposter both times one has infiltrated the Order.


Hey, there's another thing to think about, right there. Thor knows what the Snarl is, can't or won't intervene, and knows directly what is at stake. Why's he tearing up the ship? If he really wants Durkon back enough to jeopardize the anti-snarl mission, he should be angrily beating on Hel's door, not shooting lightning at an airship carrying a flying creature's friends. Maybe he needs them to land somewhere else and can't communicate through the cleric anymore. Or maybe he's drunk again.

It's possible that he suspects that Hel may be planning something with the Gates, in which case taking out the HPOH and leaving the Order healerless is probably the best bet for him.


Thor has the highest strength score in Asgard.

Nobody said he had the highest wisdom or int scores.

Also that.

[Mathalor]

How does taking out the airship engines carrying a flying vampire's friends defeat the high priest of Hel? If he has enough precision to steer the lightning around the lightning rod, he could, if he wanted, just aim all the lightning, and other things, directly at Durkon. Even if Durkon couldn't fly, the vampire probably has enough hit points and spells to survive the fall.

"I, Thor, will delay the world's and my personal best hope just to mildly inconvenience you!"

[BaronOfHell]

The Gods have their own limited ways to interfere with the mortal realm. Yes, any God could destroy anyone they didn't care for instantly... and I wouldn't be surprised if somewhere down that path a new Snarl was formed.

Only if the Gods believe they are forced to, will they interfere with full power., and the only situation we've been told where they'll do that is the release of the Snarl. Until then, I don't think any of the Gods will interfere in any other way than their usual, e.g. Thor's through the weather, etc.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

The Gods have their own limited ways to interfere with the mortal realm. Yes, any God could destroy anyone they didn't care for instantly... and I wouldn't be surprised if somewhere down that path a new Snarl was formed.

Only if the Gods believe they are forced to, will they interfere with full power., and the only situation we've been told where they'll do that is the release of the Snarl. Until then, I don't think any of the Gods will interfere in any other way than their usual, e.g. Thor's through the weather, etc.

I wouldn't be surprised if the gods were utterly forbidden (perhaps by some higher law or their own decision) from harming non-gods through their direct interference. So, Thor is limited to striking down the Mechane to get the Order's attention as opposed to directly annihilating Durkon.

[veti]

Durkon admits openly to being an evil vampire. Even if that were accomplished through some other means than forceful subjugation of the soul by an outside entity, it would still mandate a change in worldview. I'm a bit surprised that no one has asked Durkon what being evil means to him, or to explain his new ethos.

They haven't really had time, yet, to get into what could be a prolonged theological/philosophical discussion.

And if they did - in one game I used to play in, you'd hesitate to do that with a high-level cleric, because there would be a significant chance that they'd end up talking you round to their point of view, and most players are hesitant to have their beloved characters' alignment changed...


Not only does it confuse me that the people in this thread think that there will ever be any deductions leading anywhere as to why 'all of a sudden evil' Durkon is not acting exactly like, 'religiously and fervently devoted to all things Thor with special emphasis on law and good' Durkon, I don't get what the comic characters are expecting from Durkon right now, and why they're staring at him. Durkon is an openly evil vampire. Of course Thor is pissed off. Why didn't they realize beforehand that of course this would happen?

They're - thinking, which as aforementioned is not something they've had a lot of time to do yet (and still don't, really). Is Durkon still a cleric of Thor? If not, why not - how did he get converted, how did he suddenly learn enough to instantly become a high priest of a different god, when he's never put many ranks into "Knowledge: Religion" anyway? And if he is, then (a) why is Thor pissed at him, (b) why doesn't he try to intercede with Thor, (c) or is he in fact summoning the storm himself, for reasons unknown? They're wondering, right now. What conclusions will they come to? -- well, that's this week's cliffhanger.

[Jay R]

This whole thread confuses me.

The problem is not merely that we are dealing with a HPoH vampire instead of an evil Durkon vampire, but that there is a good Durkon being held hostage inside.

The crucial issue is that there is a difference between my friend, who is acting badly because of a temporary problem, and the person who is holding my friend hostage while pretending to be him.

[WolvesbaneIII]

Who's to say the high priest can't make something up? Like he can't control weather due to his new alignment, but DRAWS UPON THE DARK ENERGY PLANE (instead of hel herself) and thor is something-good while technically "durkon" is lawful evil. 2 alignments away now.

And cue the high priest using his new found charisma and wisdom boost to bluff the party into feeling sorry for "durkon".

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Who's to say the high priest can't make something up? Like he can't control weather due to his new alignment, but DRAWS UPON THE DARK ENERGY PLANE (instead of hel herself) and thor is something-good while technically "durkon" is lawful evil. 2 alignments away now.

And cue the high priest using his new found charisma and wisdom boost to bluff the party into feeling sorry for "durkon".

Yeah, I have a feeling that (to the irritation of some, no doubt) the High Priest of Hel won't be found out just yet. However, they may get more suspicious.

[veti]

Who's to say the high priest can't make something up?

I'm sure he can, and will. But how convincing will it be? What sort of residual doubt will it leave in the party's minds?

Durkon's no fool, he doesn't think the OOTS is going to pile on and destroy the vampire here and now. But he's seen the biggest-yet chink in its armour of disguise, and that's why he's looking so smug right now.

[ReaderAt2046]

How does taking out the airship engines carrying a flying vampire's friends defeat the high priest of Hel? If he has enough precision to steer the lightning around the lightning rod, he could, if he wanted, just aim all the lightning, and other things, directly at Durkon. Even if Durkon couldn't fly, the vampire probably has enough hit points and spells to survive the fall.

"I, Thor, will delay the world's and my personal best hope just to mildly inconvenience you!"

I would assume that either Thor's ability to aim the lightning bolts is somewhat limited, or there's a ban on directly smiting someone else's cleric (which makes a whole lot of sense).

[WolvesbaneIII]

I would assume that either Thor's ability to aim the lightning bolts is somewhat limited, or there's a ban on directly smiting someone else's cleric (which makes a whole lot of sense).

Yeah probably. But bolts of lightning on an engine is indirect at best.

But thors a retard in the oots multiverse. He's just drunk. Or drunk.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Yeah probably. But bolts of lightning on an engine is indirect at best.

But thors a retard in the oots multiverse. He's just drunk. Or drunk.

Smiting the engine would normally be a daily good way of indirectly killing everyone (if you can't directly kill them), except in this case your target can fly. Thor is not always drunk, we have seen him sober several times. He is not necessarily drunk right now.

[Jay R]

I know Durkon is in the control of the HPoH. But is it possible that he is casting Control Weather, in a Still, Silent way?

[factotum]

I know Durkon is in the control of the HPoH. But is it possible that he is casting Control Weather, in a Still, Silent way?

I think that's vanishingly unlikely--if he was still able to cast spells independently of the HPoH then why doesn't he just do a Sending to Roy to tell him what's going on?

[zimmerwald1915]

I think that's vanishingly unlikely--if he was still able to cast spells independently of the HPoH then why doesn't he just do a Sending to Roy to tell him what's going on?
Not to mention that, absent metamagic reduction, still silent control weather would be a 9th-level spell.

The point about Durkon probably not being able to cast without control of his body is probably the best of the lot, though.

[ChristianSt]

I know Durkon is in the control of the HPoH. But is it possible that he is casting Control Weather, in a Still, Silent way?

I don't think he can.

But even if he could do it and even if Control Weather would be the only option, I don't think Durkon would do it.

Risking the life of his team (and probably the mission) in such a manner doesn't seem like something Durkon would even consider as an valid option.

[WolvesbaneIII]

I don't think he can.

But even if he could do it and even if Control Weather would be the only option, I don't think Durkon would do it.

Risking the life of his team (and probably the mission) in such a manner doesn't seem like something Durkon would even consider as an valid option.

I agree. Durkon wouldn't bring harm to other people, including belker.

[Angelalex242]

Well, Thor could say, on 'smiting someone else's cleric.' "I was trying to smite Durkon. Not my fault HPoH was also there at the time!"

[WolvesbaneIII]

Well, Thor could say, on 'smiting someone else's cleric.' "I was trying to smite Durkon. Not my fault HPoH was also there at the time!"

Ah! but who can say that thor is that intelligent, or wise!

Thor must be binge drinking on a godly level.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Ah! but who can say that thor is that intelligent, or wise!

Thor must be binge drinking on a godly level.

When is he not? :smalltongue:

[skim172]

I think if Thor came in, literally smote Evil Durkon with lightning and thus resolved the plot, that might fall under the definition of "Deus Ex Machina."

[Mathalor]

I think if Thor came in, literally smote Evil Durkon with lightning and thus resolved the plot, that might fall under the definition of "Deus Ex Machina."

If Thor's lightning resolved all the story conflict, then yes, that would be a Deus Ex Machina. But if gods are powerless to interfere with mortals, A) Why would anyone follow them? and B) What is Thor playing at?

And if the Gods can interfere, then to crash the Mechane, forming a tornado nearby would be more effective, immediate, and impressive. As they are flying over mountains, a sudden and powerful downward gust may do the trick as well, and with less effort. To eliminate the vampire, focused blasts of sun, rocks, wind, large hailstones and lightning, and also a tornado if he didn't care about collateral damage would be much more effective. He could also abandon all pretense of subtlety and open several nearby Gates, or even make a personal visit.

Unless Thor is both feeble and stupid, this lightning display is not a complete attempt to destroy Durkon's body. Does he want the group stopped at a certain location and time? Is he throwing a meteorological hissy-fit? Does he enjoy pranking airships and/or former followers? Is this part of a seemingly useless elaborate plan? I don't know, but that lightning and the strong but manageable wind can't be a serious attempt at eliminating the vampire.


Anyway, the original topic was about the other PCs possibly detecting the nature of Durkon's imprisonment based on behavioral tells from the spirit controlling him. I still think that that is highly unlikely as Durkon has professed to be an evil vampire now and that requires him to change radically in and of itself, and that even if they did know the truth, they would still take his help because they need it.

[skim172]

I'm saying from a storytelling perspective, it would be very anticlimactic if the problem was simply solved by all-powerful deities stepping in and snapping their fingers. We might as well ask why none of the Southern Gods came down to help the Azurites avoid their doom, or why they didn't intervene to stop Miko endangering the fabric of the universe until after she'd sliced up Shojo their favored servant. Or, for that matter, why Thor doesn't just rain down endless lightning bolts on Xykon and Redcloak until their bodies melted into the ground.

It's always a problem to tell stories in a universe where magic, gods, and/or the afterlife are concrete, routine mundanities of average daily life, because there's an absence of mystery and uncertainty. I think the Giant himself has written about the difficulties that resurrection magic poses to the dramatic fantasy storyteller.

So while the issue may be lampshaded later on, the effective reason why Thor doesn't just kill Doppelganger Durkon outright is because that would be really, really boring.

[factotum]

Unless Thor is both feeble and stupid, this lightning display is not a complete attempt to destroy Durkon's body. Does he want the group stopped at a certain location and time? Is he throwing a meteorological hissy-fit? Does he enjoy pranking airships and/or former followers? Is this part of a seemingly useless elaborate plan? I don't know, but that lightning and the strong but manageable wind can't be a serious attempt at eliminating the vampire.


It could be that this is Thor's way to tell the others that something isn't right with Durkon. He doesn't actually want to crash the Mechane because that would prevent the Order reaching dwarven lands and doing something to stop Xykon getting the last Gate, and he's probably prevented by the agreements the Gods have between each other to just blast the vampire with lightning directly, so he just puts up a big, storm-shaped "I'm not happy with you guys" warning and lets them come to their own conclusions from that.

[Rodin]

I've been wondering if Thor is using the storm to force the Mechane into a particular area.

Like, say, into the Dwarven lands at exactly the area where everybody who actually knows Durkon is. The HPoH may be able to pull on memories when dealing with the Order, since the memories shared between the Order are going to be pretty similar. But if you add his mom, his priest, his childhood friends, Hilgya maybe...

Toss all that at him and watch the HPoH start juggling like crazy.

That the storm also indicates Thor taking an interest is just gravy.

[WolvesbaneIII]

I've been wondering if Thor is using the storm to force the Mechane into a particular area.

Like, say, into the Dwarven lands at exactly the area where everybody who actually knows Durkon is. The HPoH may be able to pull on memories when dealing with the Order, since the memories shared between the Order are going to be pretty similar. But if you add his mom, his priest, his childhood friends, Hilgya maybe...

Toss all that at him and watch the HPoH start juggling like crazy.

That the storm also indicates Thor taking an interest is just gravy.

eh, I'm willing to bet it's just thor doing drugs now. Alcohol is the ultimate gateway drug.

[Kish]

I think if Thor came in, literally smote Evil Durkon with lightning and thus resolved the plot, that might fall under the definition of "Deus Ex Machina."
That would be a Deus In Machina, actually.

[veti]

I'm saying from a storytelling perspective, it would be very anticlimactic if the problem was simply solved by all-powerful deities stepping in and snapping their fingers. We might as well ask why none of the Southern Gods came down to help the Azurites avoid their doom, or why they didn't intervene to stop Miko endangering the fabric of the universe until after she'd sliced up Shojo their favored servant. Or, for that matter, why Thor doesn't just rain down endless lightning bolts on Xykon and Redcloak until their bodies melted into the ground.

It's always a problem to tell stories in a universe where magic, gods, and/or the afterlife are concrete, routine mundanities of average daily life, because there's an absence of mystery and uncertainty. I think the Giant himself has written about the difficulties that resurrection magic poses to the dramatic fantasy storyteller.

Simples: the gods are ridiculously powerful, but their motives are inscrutable, their goals are long-term and they have constraints that none of us are aware of. You might think that Thor wants to stop Durkula from reaching dwarven lands, but how do we know that His long-term plan doesn't incorporate that factor and turn it to His own ends?

I'm pretty sure the Twelve Gods actually wanted Azure City to fall. How else do you explain this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0460.html)?

[Rodin]

Simples: the gods are ridiculously powerful, but their motives are inscrutable, their goals are long-term and they have constraints that none of us are aware of. You might think that Thor wants to stop Durkula from reaching dwarven lands, but how do we know that His long-term plan doesn't incorporate that factor and turn it to His own ends?

I'm pretty sure the Twelve Gods actually wanted Azure City to fall. How else do you explain this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0460.html)?

Damage naturally occurring from Tsukiko's Shout damaging the prison. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html)

Miko's "Chosen One" complex is the only reason she thinks the gods were involved in that.

[factotum]

Damage naturally occurring from Tsukiko's Shout damaging the prison. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html)

Miko's "Chosen One" complex is the only reason she thinks the gods were involved in that.

Yeah, I agree. We're told that the OotS gods are forbidden from interfering in the affairs of the world except via their clerics (although Thor has a tendency to overstep the bounds), so the Twelve Gods can't be the reason for the cracked bar that allowed Miko to escape.

[Haldir]

I assume that this brutal storm signifies that Thor is aware his Priest has been corrupted by Hel. Barring some Thor-wants-this-a-secret shenanigans, it's pretty easy to assume Loki knows about Hel's actions too. Meaning divine intervention could easily bring Hilgya into the mix.

As far as my actual theory- it'll be Haley. She's consistently proven her ability to read opponents.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Yeah, I agree. We're told that the OotS gods are forbidden from interfering in the affairs of the world except via their clerics (although Thor has a tendency to overstep the bounds), so the Twelve Gods can't be the reason for the cracked bar that allowed Miko to escape.

I think it's only that the gods have a self-inflicted ban on directly interfering in the territory of other pantheons, so as to limit conflicts between pantheons. That's why they created the clerics, to go where they can't. Of course, it's likely be that the gods have more restrictions on them (probably necessary to ensure that they don't ruin the story), but I don't think it's ever mentioned.

[factotum]

I think it's only that the gods have a self-inflicted ban on directly interfering in the territory of other pantheons, so as to limit conflicts between pantheons.

If that's the case, why didn't the Twelve Gods just smite Xykon as soon as he dared attack Azure City? Why didn't Thor just directly zap the HPoH just now? There has to be a reason why they can't, or won't, do these things...

[Jaxzan Proditor]

If that's the case, why didn't the Twelve Gods just smite Xykon as soon as he dared attack Azure City? Why didn't Thor just directly zap the HPoH just now? There has to be a reason why they can't, or won't, do these things...

Personally, I think that gods can't directly intervene with mortals, and have to resort to things like striking the engine. However, we haven't actually been told any such thing, only that the gods can't directly interfere outside of their territories.

[Kish]

Personally, I think that gods can't directly intervene with mortals, and have to resort to things like striking the engine. However, we haven't actually been told any such thing, only that the gods can't directly interfere outside of their territories.
Actually, in Start of Darkness crayon strips, the gods agree to act only through their clerics, in the name of not creating another Snarl.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Actually, in Start of Darkness crayon strips, the gods agree to act only through their clerics, in the name of not creating another Snarl.

"I therefore suggest that each of our three pantheons be granted special dominion over one-third of the planet, to guide as we see fit. Only in these lands will we be permitted to directly intervene in the lives of mortals."

[Glodart]

I think I know it is likely to happen:
Durkula tells them and then proceeds his wicked scheme

[Kornaki]

"I therefore suggest that each of our three pantheons be granted special dominion over one-third of the planet, to guide as we see fit. Only in these lands will we be permitted to directly intervene in the lives of mortals."

Vampire Durkon is actually immortal, so technically doesn't fall under this clause :smalltongue:

[WolvesbaneIII]

Comic 953 was a close one, but I don't play dnd, so I was thrown for a loop. I should have suspected that control weather, or something like it was a simple cleric ability.

Well played giant. Using simple dnd mechanics to thwart my expectations when I don't know diddly squat about dnd.

So how else could the high priest be caught? Belker is still suspicious. I'd put my money on owls wisdom being cast by V cuz he asked nicely, knowing it could give him the wisdom to catch him a neat vampire prey.

But then again owls wisdom was stated by another poster in this thread to be a one shot gag, not necessarily something that could be useful in another situation.

[Kornaki]

Comic 953 was a close one, but I don't play dnd, so I was thrown for a loop. I should have suspected that control weather, or something like it was a simple cleric ability.

Well played giant. Using simple dnd mechanics to thwart my expectations when I don't know diddly squat about dnd.


Durkon has used control weather in-comic before. Also control winds was brought up a couple times during their search of the windy windy canyon.



So how else could the high priest be caught? Belker is still suspicious. I'd put my money on owls wisdom being cast by V cuz he asked nicely, knowing it could give him the wisdom to catch him a neat vampire prey.

But then again owls wisdom was stated by another poster in this thread to be a one shot gag, not necessarily something that could be useful in another situation.

I feel like this is one of those situations where Belkar isn't smart enough to know he has to get smarter. That could be a good way to cap off his developing character change.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Vampire Durkon is actually immortal, so technically doesn't fall under this clause :smalltongue:

Well, that explains why Xykon and the High Priest of Hel are still unsmitten, doesn't it? :smallbiggrin:

[WolvesbaneIII]

Durkon has used control weather in-comic before. Also control winds was brought up a couple times during their search of the windy windy canyon.




I feel like this is one of those situations where Belkar isn't smart enough to know he has to get smarter. That could be a good way to cap off his developing character change.

Where did he use control weather? I believe you, but I can't remember right now.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Where did he use control weather? I believe you, but I can't remember right now.
He used it here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0352.html).

[Rizzer]

Is the High Priest of Hel in fact a vampire? Spirit Durkula does not have fangs...

[Domino Quartz]

Is the High Priest of Hel in fact a vampire? Spirit Durkula does not have fangs...

The HPoH is a Negative Energy Spirit. Durkon's body is a vampire.

[WolvesbaneIII]

He used it here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0352.html).

Whoa. That like 601 comics ago. Almost 600 exact. neat.

[veti]

Damage naturally occurring from Tsukiko's Shout damaging the prison. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html)

Miko's "Chosen One" complex is the only reason she thinks the gods were involved in that.

It's not just the crack in the bar, though. (Although that in itself is pretty significant. Only one bar was cracked, which implies strongly that none could have been cracked without violating the spell description.)

It's also: Miko is praying to the Twelve Gods at the time. If they don't want her to break out of jail, why don't they tell her?

They don't even have to appear in person or speak directly into her head to do it. Just a noise outside the window that attracted her attention away from the bars at that moment, that'd be enough.

But no, the Twelve Gods allowed her to see the crack at the right moment, when she's appealing to them for guidance. Just like they allowed her to arrive at the throne room at precisely the right moment to overhear Shojo's confession. Azure City's fall is their doing. Miko is correct in interpreting their will, even if (or more likely, because) she's crazy.

[factotum]

It's also: Miko is praying to the Twelve Gods at the time. If they don't want her to break out of jail, why don't they tell her?


Well, firstly, praying doesn't seem to work like that even in the OotS world. Secondly, if praying did work that way, do you imagine for a fraction of a second that Miko would actually hear the Gods even if they were bellowing into her ear with a five thousand watt megaphone? She certainly didn't hear Soon when he shouted at her in the throne room, and anything that she *does* hear generally gets twisted into support for her latest theory. Pretty damned sure the Gods could have bellowed "MIKO, STAY IN YOUR CELL AND SHUT UP!" and she'd figure out a way to interpret that as "Escape from your cell and kill Roy now!".

[WolvesbaneIII]

So the spirit of durkula looks just like durkon?

But any way. If they put on a belt of reverse alignment, would the real durkon be in control?

What could reverse the situation?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

So the spirit of durkula looks just like durkon?
Pretty much.


But any way. If they put on a belt of reverse alignment, would the real durkon be in control?
Assuming you mean Helm of Opposite Alignemnt, we'd probably end up with a Chaotic Good High Priest of Hel.

[RadagastTheBrow]

Assuming you mean Helm of Opposite Alignemnt, we'd probably end up with a Chaotic Good High Priest of Hel.

Eldritch knowledge wants to be free! Necromancy for fun and prophet! Resucita la Revolución! :smallbiggrin:

[WolvesbaneIII]

Pretty much.


Assuming you mean Helm of Opposite Alignemnt, we'd probably end up with a Chaotic Good High Priest of Hel.

Yeah. What other way is there for durkon to be in control of the vampire body?

What item would switch it around?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Yeah. What other way is there for durkon to be in control of the vampire body?

What item would switch it around?

People have suggested that Protection from Evil would help. Killing the vampire and then casting Raise Dead would bring Durkon back to life.

[veti]

People have suggested that Protection from Evil would help. Killing the vampire and then casting Raise Dead would bring Durkon back to life.

For added irony value, and to throw the rules lawyers into an epileptic fit... put the abovementioned Helm of Opposite Alignment on the head of the corpse before you raise it. :smallbiggrin:

[Jaxzan Proditor]

For added irony value, and to throw the rules lawyers into an epileptic fit... put the abovementioned Helm of Opposite Alignment on the head of the corpse before you raise it. :smallbiggrin:

That would be... interesting, I am sure. I wonder how most people would feel that the High Priest of Hel was killed only to have a CE Durkon take his place that can only be cured by Miracle or Wish.

[WolvesbaneIII]

I thought raise dead wouldn't work as the body is property of the evil spirit? It's an undead body now, as such can not be raised dead into the real durkon.

Is there a spell that can reverse the situation and make durkon the legitimate owner of the vampire body?

And just cuz the evil vampire spirit slipped through the cracks with this control weather phenomenon, there could be other ways to get him.

hows this? Helga or whatever her name is, the dwarf chick he boned, if she were to take to words to heart and return to the dwarven lands cuz I dunno, she's weird like that. Then seeing durkula be like oh cool! your'e undead and stuff! Can I talk to the real durkon cuz I know how vampires really work and stuff!

Roy, or rather belkar even better, over hears this and is like ah ha!

But some other snag ensues, cuz no other dwarf knows about vampires and stuff.


Ooh! Or heres one. Hilgya does indeed return to the dwarven lands like above, but knows nothing about vampires. So the high priest misinterprets durkons memories and is like all "hey baby, wanna go another round on my cool vampire staff? and I also have this magic staff that turns people into stuff, like vampires!"

Hilgya, knowing that a dwarfs duty is more important than having fun, knows something is up, but does not know the exact details.

One more question. Can vampires change their form? Can durkula cast a spell to look like regular durkon?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I view that body is the property of Durkon, so bringing him back to life would work.

I doubt that Hilgya will be returning.

Vampires can change their form, but I don't think the High Priest of Hel can look like Durkon.

[WolvesbaneIII]

I view that body is the property of Durkon, so bringing him back to life would work.

I doubt that Hilgya will be returning.

Vampires can change their form, but I don't think the High Priest of Hel can look like Durkon.

I don't know the real anwser to this, but doesn't the body evaporate once it's destroyed or killed? Unless that's just from being in the sun.

Isn't the body no longer that of a dwarf? It's a vampire body now. It could be ressurrected maybe with a raise-undead spell or something. It would require the likes of a true ressurrection spell to revive durkon now, I thought.

What are the rules of the undead corpse nowadays?


Hilgya can return provided she has not been killed, and turned to dust. A cameo in the afterlife not withstanding if she has been soul bound off camera. Whether she has a good reason or a bad reason to show up in the next strip is not my decision.

I stand by my former comment that it is possible, while being somewhat improbable that hilgya could see through the high priests ruse given durkon last words as she departed. her presence could make things awkward, if not interesting in the future as she could even side with durkula, causing the dwarven lands to usher in despair at Dukula AND Hilgyas joint effort to destroy the dwarves. Jus' saiyan.

I loves me a good debate. No hate bro. No hate.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I don't know the real anwser to this, but doesn't the body evaporate once it's destroyed or killed? Unless that's just from being in the sun.
I'm pretty sure that's just from being in the sun.


Isn't the body no longer that of a dwarf? It's a vampire body now. It could be ressurrected maybe with a raise-undead spell or something. It would require the likes of a true ressurrection spell to revive durkon now, I thought.

I don't think the physical changes to a body change who actually owns the body. Also, who would Raise Dead bring back? It won't bring back the High Priest of Hel, since he doesn't actually have a soul.


Hilgya can return provided she has not been killed, and turned to dust. A cameo in the afterlife not withstanding if she has been soul bound off camera. Whether she has a good reason or a bad reason to show up in the next strip is not my decision.

I stand by my former comment that it is possible, while being somewhat improbable that hilgya could see through the high priests ruse given durkon last words as she departed. her presence could make things awkward, if not interesting in the future as she could even side with durkula, causing the dwarven lands to usher in despair at Dukula AND Hilgyas joint effort to destroy the dwarves. Jus' saiyan.
It sure is possible that Hilgya could return, and if she did she could probably mess things up. I just find it unlikely that she would return.

[multilis]

Yeah, I agree. We're told that the OotS gods are forbidden from interfering in the affairs of the world except via their clerics....
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0201.html

[WolvesbaneIII]

I'm pretty sure that's just from being in the sun.



I don't think the physical changes to a body change who actually owns the body. Also, who would Raise Dead bring back? It won't bring back the High Priest of Hel, since he doesn't actually have a soul.


It sure is possible that Hilgya could return, and if she did she could probably mess things up. I just find it unlikely that she would return.

I agree mostly. Very good points. But the body is now a vampire body. It's an undead corpse brought to unlife with negative energy. It's like a shambling zombie, but not as clumsy. Can you use raise dead on a zombie? or how about a vampire thats not yet defeated? Why would there be any difference? Roy was ressurected from the bone golem because it was -not- an undead thing. Merely a non living construct specifically not labled an undead abomination. Durkon is now an undead corpse with his soul trapped in it.

I'd need to look up the specifics on raise dead, ressurection and such. Hang on.

This material is published under the OGL
Raise Dead Conjuration (Healing)
Level: Clr 5
Components: V, S, M, DF
Casting time: 1 minute
Range: Touch
Target: Dead creature touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)


You restore life to a deceased creature. You can raise a creature that has been dead for no longer than one day per caster level. In addition, the subject’s soul must be free and willing to return. If the subject’s soul is not willing to return, the spell does not work; therefore, a subject that wants to return receives no saving throw.

Coming back from the dead is an ordeal. The subject of the spell loses one level (or 1 Hit Die) when it is raised, just as if it had lost a level or a Hit Die to an energy-draining creature. If the subject is 1st level, it loses 2 points of Constitution instead (if this would reduce its Con to 0 or less, it can’t be raised). This level/HD loss or Constitution loss cannot be repaired by any means. A character who died with spells prepared has a 50% chance of losing any given spell upon being raised, in addition to losing spells for losing a level. A spellcasting creature that doesn’t prepare spells (such as a sorcerer) has a 50% chance of losing any given unused spell slot as if it had been used to cast a spell, in addition to losing spell slots for losing a level.

A raised creature has a number of hit points equal to its current Hit Dice. Any ability scores damaged to 0 are raised to 1. Normal poison and normal disease are cured in the process of raising the subject, but magical diseases and curses are not undone. While the spell closes mortal wounds and repairs lethal damage of most kinds, the body of the creature to be raised must be whole. Otherwise, missing parts are still missing when the creature is brought back to life. None of the dead creature’s equipment or possessions are affected in any way by this spell.

A creature who has been turned into an undead creature or killed by a death effect can’t be raised by this spell. Constructs, elementals, outsiders, and undead creatures can’t be raised. The spell cannot bring back a creature that has died of old age.

Material Component: Diamonds worth a total of least 5,000 gp.

"A creature who has been turned into an undead creature or killed by a death effect can’t be raised by this spell. Constructs, elementals, outsiders, and undead creatures can’t be raised. The spell cannot bring back a creature that has died of old age. "

Raise dead is out.

resurrection will work though.

[Mathalor]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0201.html

I'm still thrown as to what Thor's goal is with this storm, as it seems to be very ineffectual at accomplishing any goal I can think of, other than causing the crew to say his name a few times and somewhat damaging the Mechane. Perhaps the above link will give me some insight.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I agree mostly. Very good points. But the body is now a vampire body. It's an undead corpse brought to unlife with negative energy. It's like a shambling zombie, but not as clumsy. Can you use raise dead on a zombie? or how about a vampire thats not yet defeated? Why would there be any difference? Roy was ressurected from the bone golem because it was -not- an undead thing. Merely a non living construct specifically not labled an undead abomination. Durkon is now an undead corpse with his soul trapped in it.

I'd need to look up the specifics on raise dead, ressurection and such. Hang on.
I'm pretty sure you can use Raise Dead and the like on a zombie, so long as it has been destroyed (in the sense that it is no longer undead, and is now just plain old dead).

[veti]

I don't know the real anwser to this, but doesn't the body evaporate once it's destroyed or killed? Unless that's just from being in the sun.

In the classical vampire literature (Dracula et al), that's nothing to do with the sun. It's glossed as "centuries of decay catching up with the body". So if you destroy a vampire who's been undead for centuries, you get instant dust. If they're only a few days old, then you get a regular corpse.


I'm still thrown as to what Thor's goal is with this storm, as it seems to be very ineffectual at accomplishing any goal I can think of.

:durkon: "Thor uses storms to warn and to bless." It's the closest he can get to shouting at the OOTS "WATCH WHAT YOU'RE DOING!!"

[Jaxzan Proditor]

:durkon: "Thor uses storms to warn and to bless." It's the closest he can get to shouting at the OOTS "WATCH WHAT YOU'RE DOING!!"
Also, even if you want to go with the interpretation that Thor is drunk and randomly throwing around storms, it's an awful lot of a coincidence that the worst storm in years would suddenly appear over the Mechane as soon as they were in range and be aimed right at them.

[WolvesbaneIII]

I'm pretty sure you can use Raise Dead and the like on a zombie, so long as it has been destroyed (in the sense that it is no longer undead, and is now just plain old dead).

"A creature who has been turned into an undead creature or killed by a death effect can’t be raised by this spell. Constructs, elementals, outsiders, and undead creatures can’t be raised. The spell cannot bring back a creature that has died of old age. "

Raise dead is out. It's in the spell description.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

"A creature who has been turned into an undead creature or killed by a death effect can’t be raised by this spell. Constructs, elementals, outsiders, and undead creatures can’t be raised. The spell cannot bring back a creature that has died of old age. "

Raise dead is out. It's in the spell description.

Okay, my mistake. Resurrection, on the other hand, still works.

[Ghost Nappa]

Assuming he was feeling generous enough, they could return to everyone's favorite kobold oracle who could simply spoil the end of the series to the party...which could retroactively change the ending of the story...

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Assuming he was feeling generous enough, they could return to everyone's favorite kobold oracle who could simply spoil the end of the series to the party...which could retroactively change the ending of the story...
He could even tell the Order exactly how to defeat Team Evil so that way they wouldn't have to find out by themselves! He'd solve all their problems, as long as he was feeling nice enough to do so.

[WolvesbaneIII]

Looks like the high priest can't be caught by using stuff that durkon "forgot" either.

That's another thing to rule out.

Forgotten memories are now also on the table for the high priest of hel.

[Durkoala]

Looks like the high priest can't be caught by using stuff that durkon "forgot" either.


I'm not sure that's the case, as he might know of the treaty through Hel, and simply called up Durkon's Cleric training to get another memory while waiting for the spell to be cast. And for the audience's benefit, of course. :smalltongue:

In fact, his first scene establishes that he can get the wrong end of the hammer: he asks for information on Durkon's relationship with Thor [citation needed] and after a lengthy movie on why Durkon follows Thor, he chooses to use an expression of admiration as an exclaimation of shock. I'm sure this will probably be important later.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

In fact, his first scene establishes that he can get the wrong end of the hammer: he asks for information on Durkon's relationship with Thor [citation needed] and after a lengthy movie on why Durkon follows Thor, he chooses to use an expression of admiration as an exclaimation of shock. I'm sure this will probably be important later.
I think you've got it wrong here. He asked for those two words he needed, and instead Durkon gave him that whole scene to extend the process (which is what they argue about in the beginning of 948). He was going for the phrase the whole time, but Durkon didn't just give it to him.

[factotum]

Yeah, as far as we know, Durkon only even tried that because he thought the delay in the response would seem odd to his friends--he didn't realise all his conversations with HPoH take place near-instantaneously.

[Skorj]

It just occurred to me: how is it Durkula can cast high-level spells without presenting Hel's holy symbol? Is that a "some editions but not others" thing?

Seems like this would have been discussed before, but I couldn't find anything in a forum search.

[Jay R]

:durkon: "Thor uses storms to warn and to bless." It's the closest he can get to shouting at the OOTS "WATCH WHAT YOU'RE DOING!!"

Of course, anything you use both to warn and to bless is a mixed signal, and is subject to misinterpretation.


He could even tell the Order exactly how to defeat Team Evil so that way they wouldn't have to find out by themselves! He'd solve all their problems, as long as he was feeling nice enough to do so.

And as long as the Giant wanted to cut the story, and the income stream, short.

[Kish]

It just occurred to me: how is it Durkula can cast high-level spells without presenting Hel's holy symbol? Is that a "some editions but not others" thing?

Seems like this would have been discussed before, but I couldn't find anything in a forum search.
Maybe an undead creature's hand is Hel's holy symbol.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

And as long as the Giant wanted to cut the story, and the income stream, short.
That's why it's such a great idea!

[Skorj]

Maybe an undead creature's hand is Hel's holy symbol.

That's a bit of a reach; grasping at straws, really. :smallwink:

[Jay R]

That's a bit of a reach; grasping at straws, really. :smallwink:

But you have to hand it to him; it was a good idea.

[WolvesbaneIII]

Hows this for a twist.

Thor does INDEED deny the use of weather control.

I doubt it. But The high priest would need a really cunning excuse to get out of that one, and thor would face the consequences.

[Durkoala]

I think you've got it wrong here. He asked for those two words he needed, and instead Durkon gave him that whole scene to extend the process (which is what they argue about in the beginning of 948). He was going for the phrase the whole time, but Durkon didn't just give it to him.

I'm sorry, but I don't agree. Durkon's never cursed at Thor, so those words in the face of a divine symbol can't be the answer to What Would Durkon Do. Therefore Durkula's misinterpreted the information he was given.

This is speculation, but Durkula probably asked for something like 'what would you do here, within the power of your god?' and Durkon "replied" with the reason he worships Thor in the first place. Durkula missed the real message and saw the exclaimation 'Thor's Nuts' as the answer.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I'm sorry, but I don't agree. Durkon's never cursed at Thor, so those words in the face of a divine symbol can't be the answer to What Would Durkon Do. Therefore Durkula's misinterpreted the information he was given.

This is speculation, but Durkula probably asked for something like 'what would you do here, within the power of your god?' and Durkon "replied" with the reason he worships Thor in the first place. Durkula missed the real message and saw the exclaimation 'Thor's Nuts' as the answer.

What do you mean Durkon's never cursed at Thor? He has said things like "Thor's duodenum" and "Thor's taint" before, why not "Thor's nuts"?

[Durkoala]

Ah, but that's swearing by Thor. In that strip, Durkula's actually insulting Thor's work (probably as a metaphor: he doesn't know that Thor is actually throwing lightning, and is just showing shock), instead of trying to work out what the god is trying to say like the real Durkon would. Durkon's exclaimations of 'Thor's thingy!' have been directed at non-Thor-related incidents, like being ambushed or drinking some terrible (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html)beverage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0871.html).

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Ah, but that's swearing by Thor. In that strip, Durkula's actually insulting Thor's work (probably as a metaphor: he doesn't know that Thor is actually throwing lightning, and is just showing shock), instead of trying to work out what the god is trying to say like the real Durkon would. Durkon's exclaimations of 'Thor's thingy!' have been directed at non-Thor-related incidents, like being ambushed or drinking some terrible (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html)beverage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0871.html).

Well, that is your interpretation of "Thor's nuts". Mine is that the "'s" was genitive, indicating his shock that the lightning struck so close.

[factotum]

I agree with Jaxzan--the context clearly suggests this is another exclamation "Thor's <insert body part here>!", not "Thor is mad, why is he doing this?". If what he'd said really *was* suspicious in any way Belkar would no doubt have brought it up during his anti-Durkula rant just now.

[Scrysis]

Roy already knows that Durkula isn't Durkon. We saw that in the session with the illithid, Roy has a higher intelligence than even V, and he's acknowledged the fact that he's going to put up with Durkula as he "can't be worse than Belkar." He's using the vampire. He's not stupid. He really needs a cleric, and he explicitly mentioned that it's best to have Durkon's body following them around, casting spells for them, rather than being hauled around by them before being resurrected.

I think the real questions here are, "when is Durkula going to screw up enough to reveal Hel's plans to Roy?", and "when will Roy reveal that he wasn't fooled by the charade at all?"

[Jaxzan Proditor]

We saw that in the session with the illithid, Roy has a higher intelligence than even V,

Vaarsuvius actually has the higher intellect, but Roy has a fairly good score and has a good Wisdom score too. Also, while Roy might know that Durkon is not who he was before he was turned, it is extremely unlikely he knows the specifics of the situation.

[factotum]

Yeah, everything Roy has done is consistent with him thinking the HPoH is basically just Durkon with added evulz, rather than a completely different entity keeping Durkon imprisoned. That latter bit is the crucial thing here--if Roy knew the truth he'd move heaven and earth to free his old friend, you can rest assured of that!

[Aasimar]

I just had the idea that perhaps Thor could send Haley a vision or a message, as she is now technically a follower of his.

[Haldir]

Durkon has always professed the idea that Thor sends him messages via storms. His willingness to redress one of Thor's storms without considering the divine implication would send a big message that Durkon is a bit off.

[WolvesbaneIII]

Durkon has always professed the idea that Thor sends him messages via storms. His willingness to redress one of Thor's storms without considering the divine implication would send a big message that Durkon is a bit off.

Ooh! good point!

[Kish]

I think you overestimate how much attention any of the rest of the Order has ever given to Durkon's "quaint ideas" and "strange religious fixations."

Look back at the arc that introduced Miko, and tell me: When did any of the rest of the Order, even Roy, show the slightest concern for Durkon's belief that Thor wanted them to cooperate with Miko? Even when Roy was panting after Miko and listing reasons why they should go with her, did he ever mention "and Durkon thinks his god wants us to," even as an afterthought?

[Jay R]

I think you overestimate how much attention any of the rest of the Order has ever given to Durkon's "quaint ideas" and "strange religious fixations."

Look back at the arc that introduced Miko, and tell me: When did any of the rest of the Order, even Roy, show the slightest concern for Durkon's belief that Thor wanted them to cooperate with Miko? Even when Roy was panting after Miko and listing reasons why they should go with her, did he ever mention "and Durkon thinks his god wants us to," even as an afterthought?

Exactly. The Order quite naturally treats that with the same respect they give to Durkon's contention that the trees are a menace.

[Kornaki]

Look back at the arc that introduced Miko, and tell me: When did any of the rest of the Order, even Roy, show the slightest concern for Durkon's belief that Thor wanted them to cooperate with Miko? Even when Roy was panting after Miko and listing reasons why they should go with her, did he ever mention "and Durkon thinks his god wants us to," even as an afterthought?

Wow I never thought about this. It changes my perception of that sequence of comics dramatically.

[WolvesbaneIII]

So, does the new comic posted indicate they know that vampire durkon is not durkon at all. Varsuuivus seems to speak as though it may not be durkon, though vaguely. And of course we know it's not durkon, but does V know?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

So, does the new comic posted indicate they know that vampire durkon is not durkon at all. Varsuuivus seems to speak as though it may not be durkon, though vaguely. And of course we know it's not durkon, but does V know?

It's pretty clear that Vaarsuvius doesn't know, but still isn't willing to trust the High Priest of Hel fully.

[WolvesbaneIII]

vArsuuivus refers to durkula as "the vampire".

Seems that he does not assume durkons body is the real deal.

[zinycor]

Isn't the epic level necromancer who did a soul-splice with V still out there? she probably does know this sort of thing... having said that...

well, after she helps the order they can get Redcloack to resurrect durkon :smallbiggrin:

[zinycor]

Isn't the epic level necromancer who did a soul-splice with V still out there? she probably does know this sort of thing... having said that...

well, after she helps the order they can get Redcloack to resurrect durkon :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: come to think about it... that necromancer was friends with xykon... so it wouldn't be so weird that xykon "revives her" so he can have an epic necromancer at his command... then at some point the necromancer and the order meet and she tells them that their friends is help capive inside the vampire... that way now the order has to fight xykon, an epic necromancer and Durkula at the same time...


yeah i solved the problem creating even more problems xDD

[zimmerwald1915]

EDIT: come to think about it... that necromancer was friends with xykon...
Huh? No she wasn't. Xykon and Haerta were never, ever shown interacting.

Xykon used to be on fairly good terms with a colleague named Ydrynna [sic.], but she and Haerta are not the same person.

[zinycor]

Huh? No she wasn't. Xykon and Haerta were never, ever shown interacting.

Xykon used to be on fairly good terms with a colleague named Ydrynna [sic.], but she and Haerta are not the same person.

you are right, my bad then.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Isn't the epic level necromancer who did a soul-splice with V still out there?

The IFCC has probably collected her by now.

[Ettina]

Okay, my mistake. Resurrection, on the other hand, still works.

Yeah, resurrection still works.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Undead_Type


Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead.

[Duck999]

If V agrees with Belkar, Roy may not be able to ignore the accusation.

[Kish]

Agrees with Belkar about what, exactly? That they should immediately kill the vampire for being a vampire? That throwing Belkar overboard is clearly behavior indicative of being evil and hostile to the entire Order?

(If Vaarsuvius said the latter, I think Roy would be too boggled by the hypocrisy to say anything about Vampire Durkon.)

[Jaxzan Proditor]

If V agrees with Belkar, Roy may not be able to ignore the accusation.

Of course, as the most recent comic shows, Vaarsuvius refuses to be convince by Belkar's arguments and I doubt that there is much Belkar can do to convince Vaarsuvius to change their position that wouldn't alter Roy's.