How bad is LA and RHD for a PC?

[RPGaddict28]

For those who aren't aware of the abbreviations, LA=Level Adjustment, and RHD=Racial Hit Die.

Anyway, another player was talking about how if their current character was to die, they would roll a War Hulk. I have no problems with that, but he wanted to be an ogre. I tried explaining to him how bad LA is for PC's but he didn't seem to listen. I presented him the half-ogre race, which is only LA1, no RHD to my knowledge. I also showed him mathematically how bad taking ogre of half-ogre is, not even giving you a difference in to hit, in exchange for 5 more levels, yet he seemed to refuse to see how bad LA and RHD is.

However, I'm also willing to accept that I'm not right in this situation. Is LA and RHD better than I thought, or am I right?

Also, to how I got to that they grant the same to-hit bonus is that at ECL 6, using a base 20 STR, an ogre would have 3BAB+10STRMOD, for a to hit of 13, while the half ogre, taking 5 levels in Fighter, would have 5BAB+8STRMOD, equaling 13, and while the the full-ogre would have an extra 2 damage, the half-ogre would have bonus feats, which could be, as much as it hurts me to say, weapon focus and specialization, giving him a 14 to-hit, and a 10 base damage.

[WhamBamSam]

Half-Ogre isn't so bad at +2 LA. Large size can be worth it if you're big on Bull Rushing, Tripping, Reach, Grappling or the like, and the Str bonus is big enough that it overcomes the 2 BAB you might get from class levels.

If you're still worried about him being underpowered, you could allow him to use LA buyoff (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm), to eventually catch up with the rest of the party.

EDIT: Or were you asking how bad Ogre is relative to Half-Ogre? Because the answer is pretty darn bad.

[OldTrees1]

Each +1LA is a cost of 1 level. RHD is more forgiving but still is a cost. For each +1LA or 2RHD (excepting certain superior creature types) the player should get 1 level's worth of racial traits. Large Size is a good standard to compare to.

Ogre has 4RHD and +2LA so it should give 4 levels worth of traits.
It gives
Bonuses to stats (0-1 level's worth)
Large Size (1 level worth)

However at most tables, playing a character that is 2-3 levels weaker (effectively what playing an Ogre Barbarian would be) is fine. The group will probably still have fun since they are a bunch of friends enjoying time together.

If you are the DM (and it sounded like you are) then just tell him that he can play an Ogre IF he lets you reduce the LA to +0 LA or reduce the RHD to 2 and the LA to +1 LA (his choice).

[RPGaddict28]

To make it clear, I am not the DM.

[OldTrees1]

To make it clear, I am not the DM.

Oh, in that case tell him that due to WotC's stupid overnerfing of monster characters, he would be playing as if 3 levels weaker than the party if he played an Ogre. If he is fine with that price to play an Ogre, then shrug and have fun.

[Vrock_Summoner]

You're pretty much in the right. There ARE exceptions; even casters, to whom losing caster levels is a downright cardinal sin, love the Saint template. But for the most part, it's bad.

I disagree with an above poster, though. LA are generally not worse than RHD if the DM is being reasonable and using LA buyoff. LA gives you nothing, while RHD gives you something at least; but you can't buy off hit dice. Half-Ogre is vastly superior to Ogre, in part because that level 5 Fighter doesn't even remember that there are negatives to being a Half-Ogre. Those HD will be sitting there forever for that Ogre, even when LA fades.

[OldTrees1]

I disagree with an above poster, though. LA are generally not worse than RHD if the DM is being reasonable and using LA buyoff. LA gives you nothing, while RHD gives you something at least; but you can't buy off hit dice. Half-Ogre is vastly superior to Ogre, in part because that level 5 Fighter doesn't even remember that there are negatives to being a Half-Ogre. Those HD will be sitting there forever for that Ogre, even when LA fades.

I do not count bought off LA as LA. Do you?

[Vrock_Summoner]

I don't really know how to answer that. But it doesn't make my point less valid. The OP is asking this in relation to what PCs will be using, and LA buyoff is really common. It should therefore be considered. It also tied into the OP's example.

[OldTrees1]

I don't really know how to answer that. But it doesn't make my point less valid. The OP is asking this in relation to what PCs will be using, and LA buyoff is really common. It should therefore be considered. It also tied into the OP's example.

I did not disagree with you despite your assertion to be disagreeing with me. My most recent post was trying to point that out. When LA Buyoff exists, in practice, the LA of every character is decreased. Thus the statement of 2RHD ~= +1LA (after buyoff) is still useful.

[Vrock_Summoner]

Technically, that's incorrect, since 1RHD trades into a class level so 2RHD is more like 2 LA :smalltongue: But you're right, and I'm sorry if I came off as confrontational.

[OldTrees1]

Technically, that's incorrect, since 1RHD trades into a class level so 2RHD is more like 2 LA :smalltongue: But you're right, and I'm sorry if I came off as confrontational.

No problem. Just trying to be clear.

Since the 1st RHD can be traded if there is only 1, I treat 1RHD as 0RHD and 2+RHD as 2+RHD. I consider RHD as half as expensive as LA(after buyoff) since it progresses feat acquisition as well as skills, saves, hp, abilities and BAB (ranked in about that order). In 3rd edition feats and skill points are quite useful for most characters.

[Windstorm]

whether LA and RHD are worth it vastly depends on what you're getting for price of entry and how it stacks up with your campaign environment.

what I mean by that is if you're in a low-op / unop environment, fun things with LA or RHD you wouldn't normally play because of build restrictions become a lot more interesting, however in a high-op game generally it has to be very carefully considered, and then only with buyoff of some type in play.

there isn't an absolute "LA/RHD is good or bad" its "does the thing I want to play fit in the party without causing power imbalance or other issues"

as an example, currently playing a half celestial melee cleric RKV in one of my games, full LA with no buyoff. in normal or high optimization this is heresy of the highest order because I'm losing caster levels and initiator levels, but in the game in question I'm still slightly ahead of the overall power curve since all but one other character are decidedly not optimized at all. (and half-celestial has a good feature set for the LA price)

[Hurnn]

Most La's are way overcharging for stuff thats going to be meaningless by lvl 6, half ogre La 2 is a joke your net + stat bonus is +2 total and you get large size so basically reach at the cost of -1 ac. the +4 natural ac is nice and all but meaningless by mid levels and you get all the down side of large but only half the up side (most large humanoids move 40)

comparing that to a drow for the same +2 la you get:
+2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, +2 Charisma, –2 Constitution.

Darkvision out to 120 feet.

Immunity to sleep spells, +2 racial bonus on Will saves against spells, spell-like abilities, and enchantment effects of other sorts.

Spell resistance equal to 11 + class level.

Spell-Like Abilities: Drow can use the following spell-like abilities once per day: dancing lights, darkness, faerie fire. Caster level equals the drow’s class level.

Weapon Proficiency: A drow is automatically proficient with the hand crossbow, the rapier, and the short sword.

+2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks. A drow who merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if she were actively looking for it.
Automatic Languages: Common, Elven, Undercommon.
Bonus Languages: Abyssal, Aquan, Draconic, Drow Sign
Language, Gnome, Goblin.

Light Blindness: Abrupt exposure to bright light (such as sunlight or a daylight spell) blinds drow for 1 round. In addition, they take a –1 circumstance penalty on attack
rolls, saves, and checks when in bright light. (a laughable weakness at best that a 5 gp item circumvents)

Makes the guys at wotc look slightly retarded, don't ya think?

[John Longarrow]

Just to make sure, which version of half orge are you using?

There is one that is totally overpowered for the +1 LA out there as it gives good stat bonuses, increases your size by one if you are smaller than large, AND you get the size increase from MM when you get bigger.

IIRC, this is about +12 to STR for a +1 LA.

[Chronos]

How bad racial HD are depends on the type, and what sort of character you're going for. For instance, a martial type won't lose much from RHD that give full BAB advancement, a couple of good saves, and a decent-sized hit die. They'll still lose something (whatever other features those levels could give, if nothing else a couple more feats from Fighter), but depending on what the race gives you, it might be tolerable.

That said, giant HD only gives 3/4 BAB, a d8 HD, one good save, and two skill points. It sucks. And even if it didn't, half-ogre (even the reasonable version) plus four more class levels of whatever is better in every way than full ogre.

[Deathcharge01]

For those who aren't aware of the abbreviations, LA=Level Adjustment, and RHD=Racial Hit Die.

Anyway, another player was talking about how if their current character was to die, they would roll a War Hulk. I have no problems with that, but he wanted to be an ogre. I tried explaining to him how bad LA is for PC's but he didn't seem to listen. I presented him the half-ogre race, which is only LA1, no RHD to my knowledge. I also showed him mathematically how bad taking ogre of half-ogre is, not even giving you a difference in to hit, in exchange for 5 more levels, yet he seemed to refuse to see how bad LA and RHD is.

However, I'm also willing to accept that I'm not right in this situation. Is LA and RHD better than I thought, or am I right?

Also, to how I got to that they grant the same to-hit bonus is that at ECL 6, using a base 20 STR, an ogre would have 3BAB+10STRMOD, for a to hit of 13, while the half ogre, taking 5 levels in Fighter, would have 5BAB+8STRMOD, equaling 13, and while the the full-ogre would have an extra 2 damage, the half-ogre would have bonus feats, which could be, as much as it hurts me to say, weapon focus and specialization, giving him a 14 to-hit, and a 10 base damage.

I play in a very weird group where this sort of thing happens often, though not to that extent. However its mostly because they envision the character looking a particular way and are willing to sacrifice efficiency to get the "feel" they're looking for.

Maybe he honestly just wants a roll up an Ogre War Hulk because he's been wanting to play that; this is after all a fantasy game played on paper with dice, its all in your head.

As most other have said LA can be bought off while RHD can't, making it superior mechanically imo. With that said, I play mostly casters and have no comprehension of what LA or RHD are.