Sorcerer/Alchemist Multiclass

[IntenseWizardry]

Hello people of the internet! This is my first post, so if I do something wrong, please alert me to the thing I did wrong. Anyways, I've only been playing for about a year so I don't know a ton about multiclassing and such, but I was wondering if multiclassing as a Sorcerer/Alchemist could be viable. I love the flavor of a guy with a crossbow with tons of bombs and such, who has altered his blood as to give himself magical powers, but how viable is it? I don't want to optimize, I just want to be effective enough. Now, I know a Wizard is a better fit with intelligence based spells, but it doesn't capture the same awesomeness as an alchemist/sorcerer. Thoughts?

TL;DR: I want to make an Alchemist/Sorcerer, how viable is that?

[IntenseWizardry]

Hello people of the internet! This is my first post, so if I do something wrong, please alert me to the thing I did wrong. Anyways, I've only been playing for about a year so I don't know a ton about multiclassing and such, but I was wondering if multiclassing as a Sorcerer/Alchemist could be viable. I love the flavor of a guy with a crossbow with tons of bombs and such, who has altered his blood as to give himself magical powers, but how viable is it? I don't want to optimize, I just want to be effective enough. Now, I know a Wizard is a better fit with intelligence based spells, but it doesn't capture the same awesomeness as an alchemist/sorcerer. Thoughts?

TL;DR: I want to make an Alchemist/Sorcerer, how viable is that?

I am actually considering going arcanist instead of sorcerer, because it works thematically as well as mechanically. What do you guys think?

[ArendK]

Honestly, going straight Alchemist can be done with what you are looking at achieving. There are a number of discoveries that alter the alchemists body (the mutagen can work thematically as well) and let you do some cool tricks in addition to throwing bombs, not being MAD (multiple attribute dependant, as a character like you are wanting initially would need Int, Cha, Dex, and Con, and a straight alchemist can drop the charisma issue).

Bombs give a limited range versatility, the mutagen and it's bonuses can give you substantial melee/cognitive ability (depending on the route you go, and easy to re-fluff as magical alterations). And the extracts give you a variety of boosts that depending on your discovery choices that can be shared with your party.

But that is just my two cents. I've seen people try to multiclass sorceror/alchemist before...it wasn't pretty results.

[Xerlith]

Hello there and welcome. About your idea - sadly, it's very weak. You lose on the spell progression of the Sorcerer (and this makes the most if their power) and extract and BAB rpogression of the Alchemist. While dipping one-two levels of Alchemist for the Vivisectionist archetype in a pure Sorcerer build might be okay, as well as dipping one level in Sorcerer (say, Sage bloodline) purely for flavor (there's no real mechanical benefit sadly), anything more will severely cripple your build.

If you want to have a smart, bloodline-driven mage-alchemist, you can simply grab the Brew Potion feat and go Sage Bloodline sorcerer.

If you want the concept of a crossbow-slinging alchemist, there's no reason for dipping sorcerer. The Mutagens do exactly what you want - alter the body to give abilities.

Also, this: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/eldritch-heritage

EDIT: Swordsages everywhere.

[IntenseWizardry]

Thanks a lot for the responses guys! I don't want to multiclass for the sake of multiclassing, but I have this vision of an alchemist with a crossbow in one hand and a magical spell in the other or something. I was thinking about buying wizard wands with spells like magic missile on them, but the problem is that I can't really do that since the spells aren't on my list. Anyways to get around this?

[Xerlith]

Um... It sounds like you don't really want to play an alchemist, but a 3.5 Artificer. Well. Let's see what can be done anyway.

Grab the Vivisectionist Alchemist archetype. Now you sneak attack as a rogue - useful damage source when crossbow slinging.
To cast Wizard spells from wands you don't need wizard levels. You have Use Magic Device as a class skill. Max it. This trait (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/pragmatic-activator)allows you to use Int instead of Cha as a bonus to the skill checks. Touch and ranged touch attack spells benefit from the Sneak Attack damage dice.

[ArendK]

Depending on the OP level of the group, there are a few routes.

For simplest as far as spells and ranged attack, I'd think the Magus (Myrmidarch) is a solid choice once they get ranged spell-strike. I've used a gunslinger/magus combo to make that one work fairly well in a low-to-mid op group. It's going to be feat-nasty, but workable depending on the group.

The Swordsage that is Xerlith beat me to the Vivisectionist concept. Not a bad route either, as sneak attack dice in PF makes us feel the warm and fuzzies.

Ooo...idea...

But that is making me think of wonderful ways to get sneak attack as a Magus now...

[avr]

If you want a hand glowing with lethal energy, an alchemist can do that without multiclassing. Look up the elemental touch 2nd level spell/infusion in the APG. Also available to a magus if you go that route. Later alchemist magic is more about transforming yourself than directly harming others admittedly.

[Fouredged Sword]

I would go for a sorcerer flavored alchemist myself. Pick up Eldritch Heritage and the improved and greater version to get your hands on some sorcerer class features without loosing out on alchemist progression. You will be an alchemist with a clearly magical nature. The impossible bloodline seems nice, with improved craft wondrous item. It will help solve a lot of the issues with lacking spells to make items, but not for wands and scrolls.

[grarrrg]

A Sorcerer/Alchemist multi-class, as has been stated, is a fairly poor idea.
Even going Sage Sorcerer for INT-Casting won't help much.

A few alternatives though.
Alchemist with Eldritch Heritage feats. Gets you Bloodline abilities, but you still have full Alchemist progressions.

Sorcerer into Natural Alchemist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/n-r/natural-alchemist) Prestige. Full casting, with some Alchemist flavor thrown in.

Arcane Bomber (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/archetypes/paizo---wizard-archetypes/arcane-bomber) Wizard. You gain a Bomb ability similar to Alchemists (but this archetype is pretty awful, losing Cantrips AND having FOUR opposed schools is harsh).

[IntenseWizardry]

Thanks a bunch guys. I'm really sorry if I was hard to please, but your input was awesome. I'm glad there is such an awesome community to help me when I need it. Thanks!

[IntenseWizardry]

Thanks a bunch guys. I'm really sorry if I was hard to please, but your input was awesome. I'm glad there is such an awesome community to help me when I need it. Thanks!

Wow, it looks like eldritch heritage is EXACTLY what I wanted!
~yay

[MightyPirate]

A decent Bloodline Breakdown (http://www.pathfindercommunity.net/tyler-s-pathfinder-guides/magic-in-the-blood-a-guide-to-eldritch-heritage-and-sorcerer-bloodlines) for you.
Allowing Eldritch Heritage more than once and taking multiple bloodlines could be fun too. I thought that it was written into the feat already but apparently it's not. :smallfrown:
I would allow it for an alchemist that's juicing up with magical concoctions of who knows what, ymmv. If you do allow it I suggest the human racial bonus that gives skill focus multiple times.

[IntenseWizardry]

A decent Bloodline Breakdown (http://www.pathfindercommunity.net/tyler-s-pathfinder-guides/magic-in-the-blood-a-guide-to-eldritch-heritage-and-sorcerer-bloodlines) for you.
Allowing Eldritch Heritage more than once and taking multiple bloodlines could be fun too. I thought that it was written into the feat already but apparently it's not. :smallfrown:
I would allow it for an alchemist that's juicing up with magical concoctions of who knows what, ymmv. If you do allow it I suggest the human racial bonus that gives skill focus multiple times.

Interesting idea, but I'm pretty starved for feats. I am picking up the Grenadier archetype to get proficiency with an Elven Curve Blade, and at first level I'm taking the skill focus I need for whichever bloodline's power I want. Than, at 3rd level, I am taking the Eldritch Heritage. At 5th level, I want to take Weapon Finesse, and at 7th I want the power that makes me load faster, so I don't know if I could manage. But thanks for the input!

[IntenseWizardry]

Wow, it looks like eldritch heritage is EXACTLY what I wanted!
~yay

As a side note, which bloodline has the best first power? I like the star soul one because it is pretty flavorful, but it seems weak. I want one that would actually materialize as a spell that I can use, not like Arcane Bond or something. Thoughts???

[MightyPirate]

I'd recommend daemon bloodline for wasting ray. The constitution save is a little easy but it keeps getting harder if they don't make it. Continuous damage is really cool for a first level power, it's just a pity that nonlethal limits your targets a bit.

Runners up will be Protean's protoplasm (great fluff for an alchemist too), and Deep Earth/Verdant for the fun tripping powers.

I'd also point out that you're beyond feat starved. Crossbows handily take me more feats to make functional than any other combat style and they're not even that good afterwards. Switch hitting with the elven curve blade cuts into these much needed feats, probably taking you from mediocre at range or melee to terrible at both.

I'd stick to ranged bombing when possible and if you must melee you want to do it with natural attacks via mutagen. They call it the Dr. Jekyll approach to alchemists and it's particularly nasty in tandem with the aforementioned Vivisectionist archetype. This Alchemist Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?293307-Chasing-the-Philosopher-s-Stone-N-Jolly-s-guide-to-the-Pathfinder-Alchemist) is the best I've seen. Responses are usually pretty timely if you ask questions there too.

[IntenseWizardry]

I'd recommend daemon bloodline for wasting ray. The constitution save is a little easy but it keeps getting harder if they don't make it. Continuous damage is really cool for a first level power, it's just a pity that nonlethal limits your targets a bit.

Runners up will be Protean's protoplasm (great fluff for an alchemist too), and Deep Earth/Verdant for the fun tripping powers.

I'd also point out that you're beyond feat starved. Crossbows handily take me more feats to make functional than any other combat style and they're not even that good afterwards. Switch hitting with the elven curve blade cuts into these much needed feats, probably taking you from mediocre at range or melee to terrible at both.

I'd stick to ranged bombing when possible and if you must melee you want to do it with natural attacks via mutagen. They call it the Dr. Jekyll approach to alchemists and it's particularly nasty in tandem with the aforementioned Vivisectionist archetype. This Alchemist Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?293307-Chasing-the-Philosopher-s-Stone-N-Jolly-s-guide-to-the-Pathfinder-Alchemist) is the best I've seen. Responses are usually pretty timely if you ask questions there too.


Should I not go for weapon finesse? I mean, I will have a strength of 14 and dex of 18, so that is only a difference of +2, is that worth taking a feat for? Also, the crossbow is kind of thematically important to me, might not be the best choice, but I'm fine with that.

[Fouredged Sword]

Yeah, actually, I would consider orc. You get a really nice bonus you can apply to an ally at low levels, and at higher levels you can get large strength bonuses you can use with a MR Hyde type build. A build that used Strength of the Beast, Power of Giants, and the alchemist true mutagen that boosts strength all at once.... +20 str, +12 con, +6 dex, +8 natural armor and large size. Yummy for a melee alchemist.

I would drop the attempt to get crossbow use. Grab one just in case, but you want to throw an alchemy item if you want to hurt something for real.

[IntenseWizardry]

So is having a crossbow with rapid reload unviable?

[IntenseWizardry]

Ok, so let me clarify what I would like so that we are all on the same page:

I want an alchemist with Eldritch Heritage (Protean probably). He will mainly be a bomber, but I want him to also use a crossbow and an elven curve blade, and maybe go into melee sometimes when needed. (With the elven sword)

[Fouredged Sword]

It is not the most useful use of a feat. Unless you are willing to spend LOTS of feats on crossbow use, you won't ever be much more useful than if you didn't. Feats are VERY valuable, and they should be aimed at things that you want to focus your character on. If you want to build a crossbow character, that's fine. We can do that. You will likely find that you must give up other options to make that work well.

You would, for example, take the dexterity mutagen, and maybe the vivisectionist archetype. Mix well with the shadow bloodline, and you can do some cool sneaky alchemist stuff. You go for very high dex and deadly aim+sneak attack from hiding, supported by your alchemical infusions and sky high dex. You can save your feats for crossbow feats (though bows are better, less feats needed).

OR

You can go str based and take melee feats and discoveries to turn into a monster alchemist.

You can't really do both. A character who tries to do everything will likely fail at everything. Better to be great at one thing, flexable enough to be ok at others, and lean on your party to fill in where you don't do things at all, than to be alright at everything.

EDIT - Looking at your idea- - Yes, that is a viable idea. Remember, you don't have to invest feats into an idea to keep it useful. Focus on one thing, let the others be merely useful.

Well, then I would focus on the bombs. Read up on the guide on great bomb effects you can get from discoveries, the above handbook is useful. Save the melee options for reserve and when you run into trouble. Think one good hit with your sword (take quickdraw as it allows you to draw all the alchemy items from your pockets as well), with an alchemy effect that will prevent them from chasing you. At 6th level you can quickdraw, apply an alchemy item, and move away all in one round.

[MightyPirate]

Yeah, probably as a main tactic. You just don't have the feats to make it impressive and even if you did picking up a bow would still be better. I'm not saying drop the crossbow, I'm just saying don't make it a focus. Bombs are a better pick to focus on and many of the feats you'll want will still apply to a crossbow. It's pretty much a fall back for when you run out of bombs for the day and you probably will.

Forget taking feats to buff up your melee. Unless that's your focus it's just not worth it. Doubly so for Weapon Finesse, that +2 to hit is just pathetic.

Orc is an undeniably awesome bloodline for a Mr. Hyde alchemist. Bonus points if you take Opportunistic Gambler from Second Darkness to make use of the Touch of Rage ability. That's a scary freak if I ever saw one. Problem is that meshes best with Vivisectionist.

Vivisectionist gives up bombs which Wizardry wants for flavor and he also wanted a bloodline power that manifests as a spell (presumably ranged). I do really think that the face ripper melee alchemist is a great optimized build but you gotta go with character first. A Bomb Happy crossbow wielder is still a good way to go as long as you stay focused on that.

[IntenseWizardry]

It is not the most useful use of a feat. Unless you are willing to spend LOTS of feats on crossbow use, you won't ever be much more useful than if you didn't. Feats are VERY valuable, and they should be aimed at things that you want to focus your character on. If you want to build a crossbow character, that's fine. We can do that. You will likely find that you must give up other options to make that work well.

You would, for example, take the dexterity mutagen, and maybe the vivisectionist archetype. Mix well with the shadow bloodline, and you can do some cool sneaky alchemist stuff. You go for very high dex and deadly aim+sneak attack from hiding, supported by your alchemical infusions and sky high dex. You can save your feats for crossbow feats (though bows are better, less feats needed).

OR

You can go str based and take melee feats and discoveries to turn into a monster alchemist.

You can't really do both. A character who tries to do everything will likely fail at everything. Better to be great at one thing, flexable enough to be ok at others, and lean on your party to fill in where you don't do things at all, than to be alright at everything.

Alright, good point, I guess I'll have a crossbow more for flavor but I won't use it much. So how do we build this guy? What are some useful feats, discoveries, etc.

[MightyPirate]

Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot and Improved Precise Shot will get you started on ranged attacks and Rapid Shot is important once you pick up fast bombs. Deadly aim could make your crossbow more relevant especially if your DM would let a tumor monkey familiar do reloading for you.

Frost Bombs and Precise Bombs are going to be really important. Blind bomb, Stink Bomb and Fast Bombs should be in there somewhere too. Alchemists also have lots of all around useful discoveries like tumor familiar and if you can make it for the long haul you'll love Greater Alchemical Simulacrum. Feat starved though you may be it may be worth looking into Extra Discovery for a feat, it's just that good.

[Fouredged Sword]

NOTE - I have not played an alchemist before, so this is from a quick read through.

Well, blinding and explosive bomb are fun, you can shuck one at the enemy wizard and leave him blind and on fire, while the rest of his party is dazzled. Smoke bomb pairs well with explosive bomb, as the smoke cloud gets bigger the bigger the splash area. That upgrades to inferno bomb eventually.

Immolation bombs are a great way to keep casters from casting at low levels.

Tanglefoot bomb is a great lockdown for a fighter or rogue. Use this with an explosive bomb and they are on fire as well.

Explosive missile will give you some nice reach and give that crossbow a nice use.

[IntenseWizardry]

Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot and Improved Precise Shot will get you started on ranged attacks and Rapid Shot is important once you pick up fast bombs. Deadly aim could make your crossbow more relevant especially if your DM would let a tumor monkey familiar do reloading for you.

Frost Bombs and Precise Bombs are going to be really important. Blind bomb, Stink Bomb and Fast Bombs should be in there somewhere too. Alchemists also have lots of all around useful discoveries like tumor familiar and if you can make it for the long haul you'll love Greater Alchemical Simulacrum. Feat starved though you may be it may be worth looking into Extra Discovery for a feat, it's just that good.

ok, so this is what I'm looking at so far in terms of feats:

1. Skill Focus (planes)
3. Eldritch Heritage
5. What should I get for levels 5,7, and 9?

For discoveries, I know:
1. Infusion
2. What should I get after that? I'm sorry I have so many questions, I'm just really new to this type of thing, Thanks for your help so far.

[IntenseWizardry]

Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot and Improved Precise Shot will get you started on ranged attacks and Rapid Shot is important once you pick up fast bombs. Deadly aim could make your crossbow more relevant especially if your DM would let a tumor monkey familiar do reloading for you.

Frost Bombs and Precise Bombs are going to be really important. Blind bomb, Stink Bomb and Fast Bombs should be in there somewhere too. Alchemists also have lots of all around useful discoveries like tumor familiar and if you can make it for the long haul you'll love Greater Alchemical Simulacrum. Feat starved though you may be it may be worth looking into Extra Discovery for a feat, it's just that good.

Wow, explosive missile looks awesome, and might give me a good reason to use a crossbow.

[Fouredged Sword]

Is there a reason you are not a human or half elf? I ask, because the extra feat at 1st level is really powerful for such a feat starved build.

1st - Point Blank Shot
Human/half elf - Skill focus
3rd - Heritage
5th - Precise shot
7th - Extra bombs / discovery
9th - Extra bombs / Discovery
11th - Improved Heritage
13th - Extra bombs / Discovery
15th - Extra bombs / Discovery
17th - Greater Heritage
19th - Extra bombs / Discovery

Focus on the dex mutagen.

[IntenseWizardry]

Is there a reason you are not a human or half elf? I ask, because the extra feat at 1st level is really powerful for such a feat starved build.

1st - Point Blank Shot
Human/half elf - Skill focus
3rd - Heritage
5th - Precise shot
7th - Extra bombs / discovery
9th - Extra bombs / Discovery
11th - Improved Heritage
13th - Extra bombs / Discovery
15th - Extra bombs / Discovery
17th - Greater Heritage
19th - Extra bombs / Discovery

Focus on the dex mutagen.

So are these good stats?

I'm going for elf

Int: 18
Dex: 16
Con: 10
Wis: 7
Cha: 15
Str: 10

[IntenseWizardry]

So are these good stats?

I'm going for elf

Int: 18
Dex: 16
Con: 10
Wis: 7
Cha: 15
Str: 10

Can you build something viable with a human's +2?

[Fouredged Sword]

The feat is more important than the stat boost. You can get a stat boost from items, you can't get a feat that way. Unless you have a particular reason NOT to go human, you should go human. Consider it this way, if there was a feat that gave you +2 to your second highest stat once, would you take it? Not likely actually. There are just better, more important feats. Take a 14 dex, and remember you are going to boost it with items/mutagens later.

[MightyPirate]

Losing touch attack is painful although the range tradeoff is almost worth it. Just remember that lacking precise shot and improved precise shot will set you up with a -8 penalty and it it's not a touch attack you will almost certainly miss. This can become a -12 if you have a party that enjoys tripping as mine does. Not detonating on a miss is just insult to injury where you could have at least gotten splash damage before.

You can't stack bomb effects so you want to make sure you have different effects for different situations. I'd steer clear of fire damage as it's the most commonly resisted/immune element by far. That's what makes Frost bombs so good, the element switch. Staggering is just delicious gravy on top. Tanglefoot and Smoke Bombs are situational wins but Blinding, Stink, and Frost can just ruin so many more targets.

I gotta second human or half-elf for the feat. Unless you need to have Elf for flavor that is.
Strength 9
Dexterity 16
Intelligence 18 (racial +2 from 16)
Wisdom 8
Charisma 13

If you only want Eldritch Heritage charisma doesn't need to be too high and you're a little hurting for feats to be taking the Improved and Greater flavors. If you want to take them anyway that's fine, just know that it's probably not the most optimal path.

[Fouredged Sword]

Yeah, you can get your charisma up with items long before you need it for prereqs.

[IntenseWizardry]

Ok, how about:
Str: 10
Dex: 16
Con: 10
Int: 18
Wis: 7
Cha: 14

At 1st level, I'll pick up:
Skill Focus (planes)
Point Blank Shot
At 3rd Level:
Eldritch Heritage

How important is Point Blank Shot? Its only a plus 1 to attack and damage. Is that huge?
Also, what Items raise your Ability scores?

[IntenseWizardry]

Ok, how about:
Str: 10
Dex: 16
Con: 10
Int: 18
Wis: 7
Cha: 14

At 1st level, I'll pick up:
Skill Focus (planes)
Point Blank Shot
At 3rd Level:
Eldritch Heritage

How important is Point Blank Shot? Its only a plus 1 to attack and damage. Is that huge?
Also, what Items raise your Ability scores?

Also, what order should I take discoveries in? I know Infusion is important, so maybe I should take that one first?

[MightyPirate]

Point Blank is a prerequisite for Precise and Improved Precise shot. You want it for those and yeah, Point blank ain't bad on its own. You can't use deadly aim with splash weapons so even a small damage boost is really nice.

Belts boost physical stats and headbands boost mental stats. You'll find both under wondrous items. For a ranged focused alchemist you want dex and int primarily and maybe con and cha secondarily.

I might get some other discoveries before infusion but it's kinda up to you. If you don't have anyone else handing out buffs infusion becomes a lot more important, also when you have a familiar it becomes much more useful. Precise bombs is really important the more melee support you have on your team. If you expect a lot of fire resistance, or worse a GM who realizes he can totally nerf your character into the ground with said resistance frost bombs is a lifesaver. If I were you I'd get all three by 5th level, the order can vary depending on your group and the campaign.

Frost bombs have the best added condition by miles with special mention to acid bombs for forcing casting concentration checks. I would get Frost, Infusion, Precise and then perhaps Smoke and Stink bombs before 8th level when Fast bombs comes online. That's gonna eat a couple feats but it makes you a solid buffer/debuffer and battlefield controller with a pretty good variety of options.

Switching out Smoke and Stink bombs for Precise Shot and a Tumor Monkey is a good route too. Nothing screams magic quite like a familiar does and these little guys just rock. If you can get your GM to let it use magic device or Improved Familiar you're golden. If you can't he's still great for copying your skills (you probably have the best skill list for this just after rogue), delivering extracts to team mates in need, and throwing down any number of your crafted alchemical devices.

[IntenseWizardry]

Why would I want to be able to throw bombs in melee? I thought I was going to be far away from the combat most of the time?

[MightyPirate]

Because you'll have allies standing between you and the enemy? Presumably you'd like to not blow up these allies.

If you don't have allies standing between you and the enemy you'll find yourself in melee way faster then you'll be comfortable with.

[IntenseWizardry]

Point Blank is a prerequisite for Precise and Improved Precise shot. You want it for those and yeah, Point blank ain't bad on its own. You can't use deadly aim with splash weapons so even a small damage boost is really nice.

Belts boost physical stats and headbands boost mental stats. You'll find both under wondrous items. For a ranged focused alchemist you want dex and int primarily and maybe con and cha secondarily.

I might get some other discoveries before infusion but it's kinda up to you. If you don't have anyone else handing out buffs infusion becomes a lot more important, also when you have a familiar it becomes much more useful. Precise bombs is really important the more melee support you have on your team. If you expect a lot of fire resistance, or worse a GM who realizes he can totally nerf your character into the ground with said resistance frost bombs is a lifesaver. If I were you I'd get all three by 5th level, the order can vary depending on your group and the campaign.

Frost bombs have the best added condition by miles with special mention to acid bombs for forcing casting concentration checks. I would get Frost, Infusion, Precise and then perhaps Smoke and Stink bombs before 8th level when Fast bombs comes online. That's gonna eat a couple feats but it makes you a solid buffer/debuffer and battlefield controller with a pretty good variety of options.

Switching out Smoke and Stink bombs for Precise Shot and a Tumor Monkey is a good route too. Nothing screams magic quite like a familiar does and these little guys just rock. If you can get your GM to let it use magic device or Improved Familiar you're golden. If you can't he's still great for copying your skills (you probably have the best skill list for this just after rogue), delivering extracts to team mates in need, and throwing down any number of your crafted alchemical devices.

What is a tumor monkey?

[IntenseWizardry]

Looking at the discoveries, I really like a few of them because they give some awesome flavor. I will take the important ones like infusion and freeze bomb or whatever its called, but I also want stuff like a Tumor Monkey, a Vestigial Arm, and Wings.

[MightyPirate]

Totally, that why I said that Extra Discoveries is a worth use of a feat.

It's called Tumor Familiar btw. I just call it a monkey because it's the familiar with the opposable thumbs.

Also this:


"Tumor Monkey" = totally a thing now?

Extra points for going with a preservationist alchemist and the infusion discovery. Now your little warty primate can be the very best, like no one ever was.

[IntenseWizardry]

Totally, that why I said that Extra Discoveries is a worth use of a feat.

It's called Tumor Familiar btw. I just call it a monkey because it's the familiar with the opposable thumbs.

Also this:



Extra points for going with a preservationist alchemist and the infusion discovery. Now your little warty primate can be the very best, like no one ever was.

I actually really like that idea, I guess I'll dump the Grendier for that. I won't need to worry about my Weapon Finesse anymore. Is Rapid Reload not worth it though eventually to replace a bonus discovery?

[IntenseWizardry]

So How's this:

1st level feats: Skill Focus and either Rapid Reload or Point Blank Shot. I kind of want Rapid Reload because I am using a light crossbow, so is sparing myself a move action to reload worth it?
2nd level discovery: Tumor Monkey
3rd level feat: eldritch heritage
4th level discovery: Infusion
5th level feat: Extra Discovery (ice bombs)
6th level discovery: Wings

[MightyPirate]

Again I'd find out if the familiar can do the reloading for you. Even if he can't point blank shot helps bombs are bolts but the reloading will never do anything for bombs which are probably more important.

If you're going with vivisectionist the choice becomes obvious but I don't think you'll be scoring enough attacks per round to make it worth giving up bombs. Not to mention ranged sneak attacking is probably the hardest combat tactic to pull of.

Other than that, yeah I dig it. You've got a seriously solid set up I think.

[IntenseWizardry]

Again I'd find out if the familiar can do the reloading for you. Even if he can't point blank shot helps bombs are bolts but the reloading will never do anything for bombs which are probably more important.

If you're going with vivisectionist the choice becomes obvious but I don't think you'll be scoring enough attacks per round to make it worth giving up bombs. Not to mention ranged sneak attacking is probably the hardest combat tactic to pull of.

Other than that, yeah I dig it. You've got a seriously solid set up I think.

I can't find anything on a monkey reloading a crossbow. Do you know if they can? I'm going with preservationist though, not vivisectionist.

[MightyPirate]

You won't find rules on that. I would let it fly in a game I was GMing because crossbows are so weak already. Even without the reloading issues they don't get a bonus from strength like composite bows and they can't benefit from manyshot. Then you have firearms really making them obsolete. I'd say your familiar would invoke attacks of opportunity as per usual but again it's going to vary by the GM.

Preservationist benefits well from Planar Preservationist, being the only Summoner that gets nature's ally and summon monster. You can summon faster than anyone else too with infusions but your extracts will burn up like nobody's business.

[IntenseWizardry]

You won't find rules on that. I would let it fly in a game I was GMing because crossbows are so weak already. Even without the reloading issues they don't get a bonus from strength like composite bows and they can't benefit from manyshot. Then you have firearms really making them obsolete. I'd say your familiar would invoke attacks of opportunity as per usual but again it's going to vary by the GM.

Preservationist benefits well from Planar Preservationist, being the only Summoner that gets nature's ally and summon monster. You can summon faster than anyone else too with infusions but your extracts will burn up like nobody's business.

Why will my extracts burn up so fast? Also, it sucks that crossbows are so weak, because they are super BA.

[MightyPirate]

You can summon twice in a round (no one else gets that) but your "spell slots" are dramatically less than any other summoning class. Talk about a supernova.

Believe me I feel your pain. Some of my favorite concepts get nerfed into the ground pretty hard. Don't even get me started on rogues and sneak attack.

[IntenseWizardry]

Well, I think its fine, because the only think I really used my extracts for anyways were cure light wounds potions so thats fine. How long do the summoned creatures stay?

[IntenseWizardry]

Also, how do I summon twice a round?

[grarrrg]

crossbows are so weak already. Even without the reloading issues they don't get a bonus from strength like composite bows and they can't benefit from manyshot. Then you have firearms really making them obsolete.

Crossbows are still plenty useful compared to Firearms, unless you are using a "guns everywhere" type setting.
Crossbows are a Simple Weapon, meaning you don't need to blow a Feat/class feature/level on getting Proficiency.
The ammunition is magnitudes cheaper, and the weapon itself is much cheaper as well.
They also have better range increments, which comes in handy if you need to make LONG distance attacks.



Well, I think its fine, because the only think I really used my extracts for anyways were cure light wounds potions so thats fine. How long do the summoned creatures stay?

Also, how do I summon twice a round?

If it's only been a few minutes since your last post, please make use of the "edit post" button, found in the bottom corner of your last post.
Makes things easier to read/follow, and reduces 'clutter'.

[IntenseWizardry]

Crossbows are still plenty useful compared to Firearms, unless you are using a "guns everywhere" type setting.
Crossbows are a Simple Weapon, meaning you don't need to blow a Feat/class feature/level on getting Proficiency.
The ammunition is magnitudes cheaper, and the weapon itself is much cheaper as well.
They also have better range increments, which comes in handy if you need to make LONG distance attacks.





If it's only been a few minutes since your last post, please make use of the "edit post" button, found in the bottom corner of your last post.
Makes things easier to read/follow, and reduces 'clutter'.

Sorry, I'll keep that in mind next time.

[IntenseWizardry]

Also, I was wondering, how long does a preservationists summoned creatures last? Also, although Augment Summoning can be used on his creatures, the prerequisite, Spell Focus (Conjuration) seems to be completely useless to me. Should I take Augment
Summoning?