why do spirit shamans fly low on the radar?

[CyberThread]

play by post games, DM says, only want one tier 1, no tier 1, no main casters,only tier 3 casters!, and my favorite low magic realm!



What is it about spirit shamans, just reputation wise, that several Online DM's , just don't consider spirit shamans tier 1 or even tier 2, like they are a beguiler or something.

[Amphetryon]

play by post games, DM says, only want one tier 1, no tier 1, no main casters,only tier 3 casters!, and my favorite low magic realm!



What is it about spirit shamans, just reputation wise, that several Online DM's , just don't consider spirit shamans tier 1 or even tier 2, like they are a beguiler or something.

I think there may be other threads about this on the front page as I type this.

In general:

Many folks feel that the Spirit Shaman's Spell list is not particularly well-suited to their general abilities, because they have neither an Animal Companion nor the ability to Wildshape, both of which greatly help the Druid's use of this same Spell list.

Because they do not naturally have the ability to spontaneously convert their other Spells to SNA Spells as a Druid does, they are sometimes considered less likely to always have a decent go-to combat or utility option handy.

[Psyren]

They also get a bad rap for being MAD (i.e. bonus spells and save DC are on different stats.) This forces them towards a buffing role, but the cleric list is better at that.

[TheNervyOne]

The reviving the dead once per week thing got one of my DMs to outright ban the class because he said that no character at a level 11 I think it is should be able to revive the dead.

Of course I think they are no more OP then the Wizard or Druid.

[Svata]

Personally I really like the way they select their spells. Pick x number of each level from your class' list EACH DAY, and spontaneously cast from those. If someone wit a better spell list had that ability, they'd be T1, easily. Can you imagine how much better something like that would make, say, a sorcerer?

[Psyren]

Seems odd to me, considering that Druids can revive the dead at 7 and Clerics can do it at 9 :smalltongue:

[Svata]

The reviving the dead once per week thing got one of my DMs to outright ban the class because he said that no character at a level 11 I think it is should be able to revive the dead.

Of course I think they are no more OP then the Wizard or Druid.

Cleric can do it at 9.

[CyberThread]

Cleric can do it at 9.



#Druidsdoitbetter

[Snowbluff]

IIRC, the Druid list is much less useful on a Spirit Shaman than it is on a Druid. Animal spells and the few Wildshape specific spells are useless to them. I don't know about the list qualifying for full T1, when I sometimes question if the Druid list has enough game breaking spells to fill a sorcerer's spells known.

In general, they are much worse than Druid with less feat support. It's not bad. In fact, they are much better off than most classes. However, I get the same kind of vibe I get with the Favored Soul.

EDIT: When did I become a firbolg?

[Seerow]

They also get a bad rap for being MAD (i.e. bonus spells and save DC are on different stats.) This forces them towards a buffing role, but the cleric list is better at that.

Of course you could opt to focus on Charisma instead for the save DCs, since you have Sorcerer level spells per day, you're still going to match or beat a druid or cleric in spells per day most of the time. Or, if you do go Wis heavy for the spells per day, then Spontaneous Summoning is a great feat option for you and opens you up to retrieving more utility spells.



Many folks feel that the Spirit Shaman's Spell list is not particularly well-suited to their general abilities, because they have neither an Animal Companion nor the ability to Wildshape, both of which greatly help the Druid's use of this same Spell list.

The real issue here is the Spirit Shaman isn't super combat capable out of the box, and focusing on that takes up a good chunk of spells retrieved. Since Wildshape doesn't change your type, its main effect isn't opening up new buffs for you, but rather giving you a stronger base to start from when buffing yourself, making buffing a more useful tactic. This is a serious loss in usability, and makes you less of a combat monster, but you can totally be an effective frontliner if that's what you decide you want to do for the day.

Also, both Spontaneous Summoning and Animal Companion from the Druid are a feat away from a Spirit Shaman, if desired, which lets you take full advantage of your animal buffs.




The other thing I noticed in the other thread is people seem to grossly overestimate how much a prepared caster can prepare, while seriously underestimating the value of the retrieved spells. There was a claim that a level 7 Spirit Shaman wanting to use Divination would retrieve that and that's all they could do with their 4th level spells for the day. While that's true, a Wizard at the same level would have 2 spells available for preparation. That's one extra spell top level spell available, and who's to say you don't want to use divination a second time? On the other hand, while that is the SS's only spell retrieved of that level, you can still use the 4th level slot for metamagic enhanced spells, or for use with spells gained from feats/items (Domain Staves, Knowstones, Spontaneous Summoner, etc). Those same items alleviate a lot of issues, since you can use the items/feats to net your go-to standard options, and use your retrieved spells to cover utility adapting to the situation.

[Grod_The_Giant]

There's a lot of debate about where to put them on the tier list. They're either the worst T1 or the most flexible T3, depending on how good you think the Druid list is. I'd personally call them T1, on the basis of unrestricted access to the third best spell list in the game, but they're so crappy in comparison to the other T1s that it's barely fair. Also, because of the aforementioned issues-- MAD, poor spell list/class feature matchup, and so on-- they don't get recommended much.


EDIT: When did I become a firbolg?
Well, when a mommy firbolg and a daddy firbolg love each other very much...

[CyberThread]

Well, when a mommy firbolg and a daddy firbolg love each other very much...


They come together and.....well.... Grod is known as a giant, not because of his height.

[dextercorvia]

On the other hand, while that is the SS's only spell retrieved of that level, you can still use the 4th level slot for metamagic enhanced spells, or for use with spells gained from feats/items (Domain Staves, Knowstones, Spontaneous Summoner, etc). Those same items alleviate a lot of issues, since you can use the items/feats to net your go-to standard options, and use your retrieved spells to cover utility adapting to the situation.

Actually you can't do this. SS have to enhance their spells with metamagic when they retrieve them, they can't do metamagic on the fly.


A spirit shaman cannot choose to alter her spells with metamagic feats on the fly, as other spontaneous casters do. Spirit shamans using metamagic feats do not have an increased casting time as sorcerers do.

[Gnaeus]

Also, both Spontaneous Summoning and Animal Companion from the Druid are a feat away from a Spirit Shaman, if desired, which lets you take full advantage of your animal buffs.

True. But almost the entire summon monster line, some planar ally spells and Gate is only a feat away for a beguiler or Dread Necro (summoner domain). Vampiric Touch, Magic Jar, Limited Wish, Simulacrum and Wish are only a feat away (Envy domain). If you are comparing a spirit shaman with an AC and spont summoning against a beguiler or dread necro with all those spells added, I don't see how the S Shaman comes out ahead.



The other thing I noticed in the other thread is people seem to grossly overestimate how much a prepared caster can prepare, while seriously underestimating the value of the retrieved spells. There was a claim that a level 7 Spirit Shaman wanting to use Divination would retrieve that and that's all they could do with their 4th level spells for the day. While that's true, a Wizard at the same level would have 2 spells available for preparation. That's one extra spell top level spell available, and who's to say you don't want to use divination a second time? On the other hand, while that is the SS's only spell retrieved of that level, you can still use the 4th level slot for metamagic enhanced spells, or for use with spells gained from feats/items (Domain Staves, Knowstones, Spontaneous Summoner, etc). Those same items alleviate a lot of issues, since you can use the items/feats to net your go-to standard options, and use your retrieved spells to cover utility adapting to the situation.

You can do that. But so can a tier 3 caster like a Beguiler or Dread Necro. They can actually do that more easily, since they only need to add spells to their list, not spells to recover per day, and because both Beguiler and Dread Necro are better at UMD than is Spirit Shaman (although only marginally better in the case of Dread Necro, whose only advantage is being SAD Charisma focused instead of MAD charisma focused). And unlike the Spirit Shaman, a Sorcerer or fixed list caster can increase their top level spells available with the simple expedient of taking a metamagic feat.

And you are wrong. In your example, a spirit shaman who prepared Divination in his level 4 slot CANNOT use metamagiced lower level spells in that slot. In order for a S Shaman to use a metamagic feat, they have to tie up the slot with the prepared spell combined with the metamagic feat.


If a spirit shaman knows any metamagic feats, she applies them to her spells when she retrieves her spells for the day. For example, a spirit shaman might choose to retrieve an empowered flame strike by using a 6th-level spell retrieved slot. Any time she uses flame strike during the ensuing day, she must use a 6th-level spell slot to cast it, and it is always empowered. A spirit shaman could use a 4th-level spell slot and a 6th-level spell slot to retrieve flame strike and empowered flame strike if she wanted to have both spells available to her in a day. A spirit shaman cannot choose to alter her spells with metamagic feats on the fly, as other spontaneous casters do.

[Pluto!]

Not saying anything about its power or potential, but its spells retrieved are limited to the point that it plays more like a Warlock than a Druid.

[Seerow]

I stand corrected on the Metamagic thing.


You can do that. But so can a tier 3 caster like a Beguiler or Dread Necro. They can actually do that more easily, since they only need to add spells to their list, not spells to recover per day, and because both Beguiler and Dread Necro are better at UMD than is Spirit Shaman (although only marginally better in the case of Dread Necro, whose only advantage is being SAD Charisma focused instead of MAD charisma focused). And unlike the Spirit Shaman, a Sorcerer or fixed list caster can increase their top level spells available with the simple expedient of taking a metamagic feat.


The difference being that the Beguiler and Dread Necro can't change out their spells prepared daily, and have a more thematically restricted spell list. So you add those spells known to cover your generically useful spells that you can use anytime. You then use your retrieved spells to cover utility spells that a spontaneous caster (such as Favored Soul or Sorcerer) couldn't afford to pick up, and fixed list casters (Beguiler and Dread Necro) don't even have access to.

There is a fundamental difference in how the two types of classes utilize these extra spells known. That you act like it's exactly the same makes it more clear why exactly you had such a poor experience playing, you were simply trying to play it like something it is not, and that caused a lot of frustration for you. This isn't a bad thing, the Wizard can also cause a lot of trouble for a new player to utilize fully. That doesn't mean that the Spirit Shaman is bad, just that it requires a different way of thinking than many other casters, because its method of casting is different.


Not saying anything about its power or potential, but its spells retrieved are limited to the point that it plays more like a Warlock than a Druid.


When a spell level first comes online, you have spells retrieved similar to a sorcerer's spells known (better actually since your top level spells come online a level earlier), it's only at late levels where a Sorcerer pulls ahead in spells known vs SS spells prepared.

In the end you have 26 spells retrieved not counting cantrips. That's more than double the Warlock. And you are getting actual spells, not invocations. And you can trade them out every day for different ones. Saying it plays like a Warlock is doing a gross disservice to the Spirit Shaman.

[CyberThread]

I stand corrected on the Metamagic thing.



The difference being that the Beguiler and Dread Necro can't change out their spells prepared daily, and have a more thematically restricted spell list. So you add those spells known to cover your generically useful spells that you can use anytime. You then use your retrieved spells to cover utility spells that a spontaneous caster (such as Favored Soul or Sorcerer) couldn't afford to pick up, and fixed list casters (Beguiler and Dread Necro) don't even have access to.

There is a fundamental difference in how the two types of classes utilize these extra spells known. That you act like it's exactly the same makes it more clear why exactly you had such a poor experience playing, you were simply trying to play it like something it is not, and that caused a lot of frustration for you. This isn't a bad thing, the Wizard can also cause a lot of trouble for a new player to utilize fully. That doesn't mean that the Spirit Shaman is bad, just that it requires a different way of thinking than many other casters, because its method of casting is different.



When a spell level first comes online, you have spells retrieved similar to a sorcerer's spells known (better actually since your top level spells come online a level earlier), it's only at late levels where a Sorcerer pulls ahead in spells known vs SS spells prepared.

In the end you have 26 spells retrieved not counting cantrips. That's more than double the Warlock. And you are getting actual spells, not invocations. And you can trade them out every day for different ones. Saying it plays like a Warlock is doing a gross disservice to the Spirit Shaman.



Yeah I mean you can cast gate once so what. I can cast spider walk all day.

[dextercorvia]

To dovetail with what Seerow just said, Level 1 and Level 20 are the only times a Spirit Shaman has fewer of their Highest level spells retrieved than a Sorcerer has Spells Known of that same level.

[Vedhin]

That you act like it's exactly the same makes it more clear why exactly you had such a poor experience playing, you were simply trying to play it like something it is not, and that caused a lot of frustration for you. This isn't a bad thing, the Wizard can also cause a lot of trouble for a new player to utilize fully. That doesn't mean that the Spirit Shaman is bad, just that it requires a different way of thinking than many other casters, because its method of casting is different.

This right here is the biggest reason the Spirit Shaman gets discarded by many. People try to play it like a sub-par Druid, or some other more traditional caster. In reality, the Spirit Shaman is best played like a Spirit Shaman. It's mechanics are unique enough there's no real parallel with another class.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Huh. That metamagic thing is weird and kind of awkward. I think Vedhin is right about having to look at them in relative isolation, though. They've got kind of a weird MO in that they get just enough spells known/day to be good at one thing, but not really enough to do multiple things. You can do melee, or debuff, or BFC, or summoning...


They come together and.....well.... Grod is known as a giant, not because of his height.
:smallamused:

[RavynsLand]

My issue with spirit shaman is that their abilities are self-limiting and stupid. Good spells, sure. But I dislike them for the same reason I dislike Spellthieves.

[Snowbluff]

Huh. That metamagic thing is weird and kind of awkward. I think Vedhin is right about having to look at them in relative isolation, though. They've got kind of a weird MO in that they get just enough spells known/day to be good at one thing, but not really enough to do multiple things. You can do melee, or debuff, or BFC, or summoning...
They're good, they're just not the kind of good they like.

The MM is the best thing ever. It gets over the spontaneous MM rules in 3.5.


:smallamused:

... Daddy?
:eek:

[Seerow]

My issue with spirit shaman is that their abilities are self-limiting and stupid. Good spells, sure. But I dislike them for the same reason I dislike Spellthieves.

My only real problem with their actual class features is that Chastise Spirits doesn't count as Turn Undead. It's something I've houseruled, and every time it's come up in another DM's game I've seen it ruled similarly, but by RAW it's totally different. Getting access to divine feats helps a lot.

But really, their features aren't bad. By level 20 turn ethereal a few times a day is still useful, though not defining, but when you first get it at level 9 it's pretty awesome. You're great against Incorporeals (free Ghost Touch weapons and armor always, free protection against 'spirits') which is nice since someone pointed out in the other thread that Incorporeals is something that the Druid Spell list doesn't have a lot to deal with, so it covers an extra base. At high level Weaken Spirit is a save or lose almost all of your defenses worth mentioning, which saves the party from needing to worry about preparing to deal with spirits (no need for backup ghost touch weapons, force spells, or whatever else. Spirit Shaman blasts the spirit, then you act however you normally would).

The other class features are nice, while they're not Wildshape, being able to maintain 2 concentration spells is a nice perk, as is a 0gp cost no penalty raise dead. Similarly, getting a contingency Heal and free long distance travel ability daily is also handy to have.

Sure, the abilities that deal with spirits can suck if you never run into any, but Spirits include 2 full types, a subtype, and a bunch of edge cases, it's not like you're going to go through the entire campaign and have it never come up. None of the abilities are enough to raise a tier, but neither are they so niche as to be useless.

[NoACWarrior]

My only real problem with their actual class features is that Chastise Spirits doesn't count as Turn Undead. It's something I've houseruled, and every time it's come up in another DM's game I've seen it ruled similarly, but by RAW it's totally different. Getting access to divine feats helps a lot.

But really, their features aren't bad. By level 20 turn ethereal a few times a day is still useful, though not defining, but when you first get it at level 9 it's pretty awesome. You're great against Incorporeals (free Ghost Touch weapons and armor always, free protection against 'spirits') which is nice since someone pointed out in the other thread that Incorporeals is something that the Druid Spell list doesn't have a lot to deal with, so it covers an extra base. At high level Weaken Spirit is a save or lose almost all of your defenses worth mentioning, which saves the party from needing to worry about preparing to deal with spirits (no need for backup ghost touch weapons, force spells, or whatever else. Spirit Shaman blasts the spirit, then you act however you normally would).

The other class features are nice, while they're not Wildshape, being able to maintain 2 concentration spells is a nice perk, as is a 0gp cost no penalty raise dead. Similarly, getting a contingency Heal and free long distance travel ability daily is also handy to have.

Sure, the abilities that deal with spirits can suck if you never run into any, but Spirits include 2 full types, a subtype, and a bunch of edge cases, it's not like you're going to go through the entire campaign and have it never come up. None of the abilities are enough to raise a tier, but neither are they so niche as to be useless.

Yep, if chastise spirits was turned into channeling it would be so much more helpful. Having played a spirit shaman in several different forms I can tell you that they are not a t1 class, but more like a t2 instead of a t3. They simply DON'T have the flexibility that a t3 has, but have the same raw power of a t1, with not as many tricks as a t1. A SS benefits from spells which either have a short duration (and stack with multiple castings), or the normal buffing role. What is aggravating is the fact that the DM can completely challenge an SS by looking at what he / she prepared for the "known retrieved" spells and alter encounters in a much easier way than for druids or clerics. Also annoying is doing more than 2 particular roles that a spell caster can do, it just ins't possible for the SS.

The Chastise spirits ability is actually pretty funny in that you effect more than just eles, ghosts, and what not. Fey, outsiders, and those of the extra planar subtype are game for CS. Running a planar adventure, bring 5 SS for the dice rolls, nuke your own outsider allies too.

[Seerow]

Having played a spirit shaman in several different forms I can tell you that they are not a t1 class, but more like a t2 instead of a t3. They simply DON'T have the flexibility that a t3 has, but have the same raw power of a t1, with not as many tricks as a t1. A SS benefits from spells which either have a short duration (and stack with multiple castings), or the normal buffing role. What is aggravating is the fact that the DM can completely challenge an SS by looking at what he / she prepared for the "known retrieved" spells and alter encounters in a much easier way than for druids or clerics. Also annoying is doing more than 2 particular roles that a spell caster can do, it just ins't possible for the SS.

This doesn't actually make sense to me. How is it easier for a DM to adapt encounters to a SS's retrieved spells than to a Druid's prepared spells? Why can't a spirit shaman fill multiple roles on a given day? He has the spell selections available to play buffing, debuffing, save or lose (and even some no save just lose, like Blinding Spittle), summoner/BFC, and blasting/healing if that's your thing. You can even go into melee/ranged combat if you'd like, though you won't be quite as good at it as a Druid or a Cleric who focus on it. Either way, you have plenty of spells retrieved to cover two or more of those roles, swapping out depending on the needs of the day.


I swear to hear some of you people talk, the Spirit Shaman's casting method is MORE limited than the Sorcerer, not less. It'd ridiculous.

[NoACWarrior]

This doesn't actually make sense to me. How is it easier for a DM to adapt encounters to a SS's retrieved spells than to a Druid's prepared spells? Why can't a spirit shaman fill multiple roles on a given day? He has the spell selections available to play buffing, debuffing, save or lose (and even some no save just lose, like Blinding Spittle), summoner/BFC, and blasting/healing if that's your thing. You can even go into melee/ranged combat if you'd like, though you won't be quite as good at it as a Druid or a Cleric who focus on it. Either way, you have plenty of spells retrieved to cover two or more of those roles, swapping out depending on the needs of the day.


I swear to hear some of you people talk, the Spirit Shaman's casting method is MORE limited than the Sorcerer, not less. It'd ridiculous.

It depends on what you setup for - for example, you could simply have combat and support spells slotted, with some damage spells, but the DM throws a RP encounter at you. Or, you are setup for damage and support, with only low level healing, and the DM throws massive damage traps which are only mitigated with massive healing (which you don't have slotted).

In the end, you simply can't cover more than 3 roles without greatly suffering in any of the missing encounter types, where as a properly setup cleric or druid almost always can solve most encounter types and fulfill 4+ roles at a time.

The amount of spells that a SS has is good, and can be compared to a sorcerer who changes his daily spells known (with a bit more daily restrictions, but more campaign wide flexibility). But the day to day restrictions are the reason why most people don't like SS. Other people who claim that SS is more flexible than sorcerer are looking at campaign wide flexibility, not the daily restrictions. I think that if SS's got the same daily flexibility as sorcerers campaign wide flexibility, that they will be more flexible and potentially a t1.

[Vedhin]

It depends on what you setup for - for example, you could simply have combat and support spells slotted, with some damage spells, but the DM throws a RP encounter at you. Or, you are setup for damage and support, with only low level healing, and the DM throws massive damage traps which are only mitigated with massive healing (which you don't have slotted).

That's what the divination school of magic is for.

[NoACWarrior]

That's what the divination school of magic is for.

The issue is if the DM allows you to use divination magic. It was one of our great nono nuke options, with the various DMs who I played with offering use for it as long as we allowed the BBEG the same use. Seeing how the BBEG and his minions are powerful enough to TPK the party, in all a campaigns we ran in we voted to not use direct divination and use bonus based divination (bonus to init or some information gathering checks).

[Vedhin]

The issue is if the DM allows you to use divination magic. It was one of our great nono nuke options, with the various DMs who I played with offering use for it as long as we allowed the BBEG the same use. Seeing how the BBEG and his minions are powerful enough to TPK the party, in all a campaigns we ran in we voted to not use direct divination and use bonus based divination (bonus to init or some information gathering checks).

Well, if the DM bars some of your spells, of course the class will be less powerful. That's not really a factor in the class's worth.

[NoACWarrior]

Well, if the DM bars some of your spells, of course the class will be less powerful. That's not really a factor in the class's worth.

I understand that completely, but it means you simply won't be as prepared for an encounter that a cleric/druid could be. Divination could potentially solve some of the issue that the SS has with their limited spell selection in that they can freely concentrate on two roles in line with what the divination stated. Without said divination, the DM can challenge the SS by throwing something at the party which is not easily solved by the SS's two chosen roles. With that said, a cleric and druid can select one or two spells (or more) at every level to simply fulfill the multiple roles for better coverage to solve situations. An SS trying to do that will be stuck with one or two spells per role of all the spell levels they can cast, a watered down power issue.

[Seerow]

It depends on what you setup for - for example, you could simply have combat and support spells slotted, with some damage spells, but the DM throws a RP encounter at you. Or, you are setup for damage and support, with only low level healing, and the DM throws massive damage traps which are only mitigated with massive healing (which you don't have slotted).

In the end, you simply can't cover more than 3 roles without greatly suffering in any of the missing encounter types, where as a properly setup cleric or druid almost always can solve most encounter types and fulfill 4+ roles at a time.

Well look at those goalposts move. It shifts from "Can only fill one role at a time" to "Filling more than 3 roles at once causes other areas to suffer".


The amount of spells that a SS has is good, and can be compared to a sorcerer who changes his daily spells known (with a bit more daily restrictions, but more campaign wide flexibility). But the day to day restrictions are the reason why most people don't like SS. Other people who claim that SS is more flexible than sorcerer are looking at campaign wide flexibility, not the daily restrictions. I think that if SS's got the same daily flexibility as sorcerers campaign wide flexibility, that they will be more flexible and potentially a t1.

The only way in which a SS has less daily flexiblity is if you are looking at lower level spell slots. As already noted, the SS matches the Sorcerer's spells known for top level spells at every level except 1 and 20, that means the vast majority of play time you are matching or beating a sorcerer's daily spell alotment of top level spells. Sorcs get more low level spells known, but I think you're dramatically overstating the benefit of that. At 17th level do you care that the Sorcerer has 2 more 1st and 2nd level spells when you just got your 9th level spells? At 20th do you care that he has 1 more 3rd-5th when you match him at 6th-9ths?

I mean yes, the number of spells retrieve can be restrictive, but that restriction is being overstated here.



And let's not forget, the one thing core to Tier 1 is having access to a wide enough array of spells to break the game, and having the versatility to adapt to any situation given a little time. To prove the Spirit Shaman is Tier 1, you can't just say "It can't fill as many roles simultaneously as a druid/cleric". Tier 1 is about being able to do anything all in one character, but you don't need to be able to do it all at the same time in the same day, just given time you can accomplish that. To prove the Spirit Shaman isn't tier 1, you need to prove that its spell list is in fact not sufficient to adapt to any situation. You need to provide challenges that a Druid can breeze through that a Spirit Shaman is incapable of doing anything about despite any spells he might have available.

I have a hard time believing it will happen, because throw Wild Shape on the Spirit Shaman, and you basically have a Druid. Wild Shape by itself is not a Tier 1 resource (it brings a character up to Tier 3), and merging Tier 3s together definitionally does not get you to Tier 1. Logically, the Spell List is what makes a Druid Tier 1. And for all the talk about Spirit Shamans lacking an animal companion to get full use out of his spell list, that takes away only a minor part of it, and still leaves a lot of very powerful spells to work with, most notably any and every spell that would be considered one of the gamebreakers that qualifies a class to jump out of Tier 3 and into Tier 2. From there you just need the SS to have the ability to adapt on a day to day basis to jump from Tier 1 to Tier 2, which he obviously does have.

[NoACWarrior]

And let's not forget, the one thing core to Tier 1 is having access to a wide enough array of spells to break the game, and having the versatility to adapt to any situation given a little time. To prove the Spirit Shaman is Tier 1, you can't just say "It can't fill as many roles simultaneously as a druid/cleric". Tier 1 is about being able to do anything all in one character, but you don't need to be able to do it all at the same time in the same day, just given time you can accomplish that. To prove the Spirit Shaman isn't tier 1, you need to prove that its spell list is in fact not sufficient to adapt to any situation. You need to provide challenges that a Druid can breeze through that a Spirit Shaman is incapable of doing anything about despite any spells he might have available.

I have a hard time believing it will happen, because throw Wild Shape on the Spirit Shaman, and you basically have a Druid. Wild Shape by itself is not a Tier 1 resource (it brings a character up to Tier 3), and merging Tier 3s together definitionally does not get you to Tier 1. Logically, the Spell List is what makes a Druid Tier 1. And for all the talk about Spirit Shamans lacking an animal companion to get full use out of his spell list, that takes away only a minor part of it, and still leaves a lot of very powerful spells to work with, most notably any and every spell that would be considered one of the gamebreakers that qualifies a class to jump out of Tier 3 and into Tier 2. From there you just need the SS to have the ability to adapt on a day to day basis to jump from Tier 1 to Tier 2, which he obviously does have.

I agree with you that SS should not be T3, and instead be somewhat high T2, but I don't agree that the daily changing versatility is worth a T1 spot. You call it daily versatility, but it is daily restrictions... the only versatility noticed is across several days, and campaign wide. I'll admit that the SS is stronger than the sorcerer when it comes to this type of versatility (and by extension the Favored Soul). But its the fact that in order to cover all the bases you have to water yourself down in your daily spell selections. Sure, use divination, and specialize, problem solved. Barring divination, when playing with a DM who is willing to throw many different challenges at the PCs which require different roles to solve (which is what DMs can do) a SS simply can't keep up with the Cleric or Druid. The SS has a clear world breaking powers, but can't solve nearly every encounter that the other two can, this is a requirement for T1 (both world breaking powers and the ability to solve a variety of encounters).

But we escalated to arguing about tiers :smalltongue:, my bad.

Lets move past the T1 / T2 issue with me conceeding defeat and saying that it is low T1 with use of divination or facing traditional non-stretching role encounters.

In any case, many DMs and players alike greatly under estimate the multi-day and campaign wide versatility of the SS. Simply put, a radical change in environment, barring that said environment would either kill the SS or prevent spell use, is generally ok with the SS who changes their selection per day. Many DMs and PCs only see what a SS can do in regards to what they are facing now, not how powerful the class is when the player properly prepares like any good wizard / cleric / druid would. Chastise spirts, as I say earlier, is mechanically stronger than turn undead, other than the fact you use turns in alternate ways instead of normally.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Let's look at what a spirit shaman can pull out of just the PHB...

Entangle
Obscuring Mist
Animal Messenger (early strategic communication)
Fog Cloud
Summon Swarm (save vs nausea and poison)
Wood Shape (what are locks?)
Sleet Storm
Stone Shape
Wind Wall
Air Walk
Dispel Magic
Freedom of Movement
Scrying
Awaken (minions)
Baleful Polymorph
Commune with Nature
Control Winds
Death Ward
Find the Path
Liveoak (exponential minions)
Stone Tell
Transport Via Plants
Wall of Stone
Control Weather
Heal
Greater Scrying
True Seeing
Wind Walk
Animal Shapes
Earthquake
Finger of Death
Whirlwind
Shapechange
Storm of Vengeance
Summon Nature's Ally (all)

Top-line BFC, plenty of divinations, save-or-dies, army-killers, minions, vital buffs... that is not a weak spell list.


I agree with you that SS should not be T3, and instead be somewhat high T2, but I don't agree that the daily changing versatility is worth a T1 spot.
That's the definition of T1. The power to solve any encounter, and the ability to change what encounters you can solve on a daily basis. The Spirit Shaman is worse at it than any other T1, but they can change, which means they're not T2, and they've got strategic gamebreaking power beyond what most T3s can pull out.

[CyberThread]

Id be that one jerk who would ask my DM to allow me to take initiate of amaurtor, so I can increase my casting list by another 37 spells.

[Sith_Happens]

Spirit Shamans are awesome, it's just that they use the Druid spell list and Druids are the awesomest. To put it differently, when someone has the Druid spell list it's usually because they wanted to play a Druid, which doesn't leave much room for the very-differently-flavored Spirit Shaman.

[Gnaeus]

Let's look at what a spirit shaman can pull out of just the PHB...

[/LIST]
Top-line BFC, plenty of divinations, save-or-dies, army-killers, minions, vital buffs... that is not a weak spell list.


That's the definition of T1. The power to solve any encounter, and the ability to change what encounters you can solve on a daily basis. The Spirit Shaman is worse at it than any other T1, but they can change, which means they're not T2, and they've got strategic gamebreaking power beyond what most T3s can pull out.

The beguiler list is flat out better. More and better save or loses, better minionmancy, better buffs, different but also plenty of divinations. I don't see a single level below 9 when beguiler does not have more great spells than you are showing, and beguiler has all the spells on his list every single day, and beguiler can add spells to his list much easier than S Shaman has.

You can't just list good spells the spirit shaman has and say "See, thats good. Tier 1". You have to show that it has more versatility through the bulk of its level range than comparable tier 2-3 classes. And since both Dread Necro and Beguiler are more versatile classes, given their superior spell mechanic, that is not possible.

And bear in mind that at equivalent optimization to a Spirit Shaman that is pulling all the most optimized spells out of his spell list, a Dread Necro or Beguiler has expanded their spell list to include other areas outside of their niche.

[CyberThread]

The beguiler list is flat out better. More and better save or loses, better minionmancy, better buffs, different but also plenty of divinations. I don't see a single level below 9 when beguiler does not have more great spells than you are showing, and beguiler has all the spells on his list every single day, and beguiler can add spells to his list much easier than S Shaman has.

You can't just list good spells the spirit shaman has and say "See, thats good. Tier 1". You have to show that it has more versatility through the bulk of its level range than comparable tier 2-3 classes. And since both Dread Necro and Beguiler are more versatile classes, given their superior spell mechanic, that is not possible.

And bear in mind that at equivalent optimization to a Spirit Shaman that is pulling all the most optimized spells out of his spell list, a Dread Necro or Beguiler has expanded their spell list to include other areas outside of their niche.


But it is also divine magic, not arcane. Arcane is already known to pack more punch then a divine caster. The beguiler comes from a list that is heavily shut down by undead,constructs, and various other mind affected things; which the shaman is not.

The shaman although not as bendable as dread or beguiler, has loads and loads of options to pick from and spells to sort through that they just don't get.

[Gnaeus]

But it is also divine magic, not arcane. Arcane is already known to pack more punch then a divine caster. The beguiler comes from a list that is heavily shut down by undead,constructs, and various other mind affected things; which the shaman is not.

The shaman although not as bendable as dread or beguiler, has loads and loads of options to pick from and spells to sort through that they just don't get.

Lol. Mage Armor, Obscuring Mist, Silent (and Major) Image, Glitterdust, Blur, Fog Cloud, Invisibility (and Greater, and sphere), Mirror Image (and greater), Displacement, Legion of Sentinels, Haste, Slow, Phantom Battle, Solid Fog, Swift Etherealness, Repulsion, Screen, and Time Stop would like to speak with you. Beguilers have plenty of spells against undead and mindless, even before they add to their list. Actually, a lot of the druid attacks and SoL's only work on the living. On any day when the spirit shaman did not specifically plan to be fighting undead, the Beguiler will probably be a bigger help to the party in an undead encounter. The S Shaman's best tools against undead are likely Death Ward (good spell), Summons, and his AOE spirit nuke, which is admittedly kind of handy in a once or twice a campaign sort of way.

[Vedhin]

On any day when the spirit shaman did not specifically plan to be fighting undead, the Beguiler will probably be a bigger help to the party in an undead encounter. The S Shaman's best tools against undead are likely Death Ward (good spell), Summons, and his AOE spirit nuke, which is admittedly kind of handy in a once or twice a campaign sort of way.

Well, they have a 3+Cha mod/day attack that deals 1d6/level untyped damage to a decent area (vs incorporeal only), permanent self-only Protection from Spirits (as Evil, but spirits instead) after level 4, super Ghost Touch at level 6, Magic Circle Against Spirits 1/day (takes a minute to activate, so need warning), and the ability to badly nerf a spirit's defenses at level 16.

And spells like Entangle don't care what critter they affect (though Entangle requires plants in the area).

[CyberThread]

Shamans, are the magical rangers, and spirits are their favored enemy

[NoACWarrior]

Well, they have a 3+Cha mod/day attack that deals 1d6/level untyped damage to a decent area (vs incorporeal only), permanent self-only Protection from Spirits (as Evil, but spirits instead) after level 4, super Ghost Touch at level 6, Magic Circle Against Spirits 1/day (takes a minute to activate, so need warning), and the ability to badly nerf a spirit's defenses at level 16.

And spells like Entangle don't care what critter they affect (though Entangle requires plants in the area).

The CS ability isn't limited to those of the incorporeal type. It also affects fey, elementals, outsiders, and extra planer beings. But if you are only fighting animals, the CS ability is completely worthless.

[Vedhin]

The CS ability isn't limited to those of the incorporeal type. It also affects fey, elementals, outsiders, and extra planer beings. But if you are only fighting animals, the CS ability is completely worthless.

I was referring to undead specifically, where it can only affect those that are incorporeal.

And if you're fighting animals, you stil have the Druid spell list. You should be able to take care of animals with that.