To kill a god

[Vaz]

How do we go about killing gods. I see this statement bandied around a lot. There was a thread over on BG where someone stated that even ignoring the ability of foresight, because of *immunities* a 12th level cleric could defeat even the god of death. I heartily disproved that, but that wasn't really the goal of the thread, Nerull was used in that instance to prove that Deathward is OP'd because it defeats a Divine Salient Ability, along with other immunities.

So, I was thinking, how on do we go about defeating a god, even those written as is, without additional optimization? Looking through Deities and Demigods, Imhotep is clearly one of the weaker ones, if not the weakest; he is only an Expert 20, with Divine Rank 1. He has the Gift of Life and Master Crafter DSA's, with Craft, Heal, Profession, or Knowledge as a free action if it is DC15 or lower, up to 2 in a round.

Bonus points for being able to do so earlier, and bonus points for being able to defeat more powerful ones;

Demigod
Hercules
Nike
Apep
Imhotep
Sobek

Lesser
Bahamut
Tiamat
Vecna
Demeter
Hestia
Pan
Tyche
Anubis
Bast
Bes
Hathor
Hermod
Odur
Sif
Skadi
Uller
Dennari

Intermediate
Ehlonna
Erythnul
Fharlanghn
Heironeous
Hextor
Kord
Lolth
Obad-Hai
Olidammara
St. Cuthbert
Wee Jas
Aphrodite
Apollo
Ares
Artemis
Dionysius
Hecate
Hephaestus
Hermes
Nepthys
Ptah
Thoth
Aegir
Balder
Forseti
Freya
Heimdall
Hel
Njord
Surtur
Thrym
Tyr
Elishar
Toldoth

Greater
Boccob
Corellon Larethian
Garl Glittergold
Gruumsh
Kurtulmak
Moradin
Nerull
Pelor
Yondalla
Zeus
Athena
Hades
Hera
Poseidon
Re-Horakhty
Isis
Osiris
Set
Odin
Frey
Frigga
Loki
Thor
Taiia

[Red Fel]

Short and dirty version? The DM lets you.

That's it. If the DM doesn't want you to kill a god, you will fail. No ifs about it. Gods are gods and mortals are very much mortal. A god who has no intention of being killed isn't going to get slaughtered by some uppity half-ape who hasn't even lived for a century yet. It simply isn't going to happen.

By contrast, if the DM explicitly wants you to kill a god, you will succeed. The DM will give you the toolbox, with tools and instructions. There'll be a quest to retrieve an epic spell, or an artifact that must be used at the proper time and place, or align the stones in the circle on the fourth hour of the full moon on the altar of change in the castle of shadows blah blah. If the DM wants you to kill a god, you will.

Now, there are two points of intersection of these two positions. One is where the DM has told the PCs to kill a god, but isn't going to go easy on them. Either he plays the god like a monster, in which case you will probably succeed, or he plays the god smartly, in which case you will fail. If it's the latter, your DM is a jerk for putting you in a guaranteed lose scenario. But that's neither here nor there.

The other intersection is one in which the DM doesn't care if you kill a god or not. You tell him you want to kill a god and he shrugs. Again, he either plays it as a monster or plays it smartly. If he plays it as a monster, you could win or you could lose. If he plays it smartly, you'll probably lose, but he's not a jerk this time - you're the one who wanted to kill a being that's literally in charge of an aspect of reality.

But that's basically it. If you play a god as a bag of stats, as written, they're killable. If you play them as gods, beings of unspeakable power and foresight, the PCs generally have no right to win. If the DM wants you to succeed, you will, otherwise you probably won't.

[Vaz]

But how do these Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Red Wizard 5's and CoDzilla's manage to be so powerful that they can "defeat gods". Apparently there was an old CO thread before wizards decided to break everything which was dedicated to defeating gods. Are such pinnacles of CO now lost to us? How do we go about defeating a god?

All of these are demigods; Hercules, Nike, Apep, Imhotep and Sobek are all demigods.

Hercules has Miracle at Will (CL15; so GDM's cannot stop CL36+)

Apep's DSA's are not that dangerous, but it does have Shapechange at Will (CL15)

Nike is a Cleric 20, and has Disjoin as a DSA

Imhotep is an Adept 20, limited to 5th level spells of a frankly terrible list.

Sobek; Assassin 10 is his only casting, and Alter Form could be a pain, but other than that, there's not much that is so dangerous as DSA's.

Come on, GitP, you're better than this!

[Loxagn]

Alternative solution: become a bigger god.

[Red Fel]

But how do these Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Red Wizard 5's and CoDzilla's manage to be so powerful that they can "defeat gods". Apparently there was an old CO thread before wizards decided to break everything which was dedicated to defeating gods. Are such pinnacles of CO now lost to us? How do we go about defeating a god?

Several possible explanations.

One is that the gods, as statted in Deities and Demigods, are tough but not unkillable. The usual "if it has stats I can kill it" mentality is in effect, and frankly, those gods were hardly optimized.

Another is, as described above, the difference between playing a god as a monster and playing a god as a god. On mechanics alone, yes, a heavily optimized caster can rewrite the universe before the DM has had time to roll a die. But the fluff of deities strongly suggests that they would have advance warning of any such reality-rewrite, and thus would either have taken steps to render it ineffective, or would have simply snuffed out the offending character a month ago.

Most of these "god-killing" builds presume that the god is being fought on an even battleground as a normal encounter. But just as optimized spellcasters are compared to gods, gods are like optimized spellcasters taken to an outrageous degree. You never engage the Wizard in a fair fight; by the time you arrive on the battlefield he has a dozen contingencies, he has scryed to ensure that you will be precisely where he wants you when he wants you, and on the off chance you kill him you'll discover it was merely his astral duplicate and he's been monitoring the entire battle from the safety of his private demiplane, oh and the floor is made of exploding runes.

Gods are like that, but worse. You do not fight them on even terms. You do not fight them on your terms. You fight them on their terms, and their terms are "Heads, I win. Tails, you lose."

[Gavinfoxx]

Because there are canonical stats of gods written up in some of the 3.0 and 3.5e books, and those stats are soooo easy to defeat if you know what you are doing and are fighting an entity with those stats and capabilities.

[Yawgmoth]

Short and dirty version? The DM lets you.

That's it. If the DM doesn't want you to kill a god, you will fail. No ifs about it. Gods are gods and mortals are very much mortal. A god who has no intention of being killed isn't going to get slaughtered by some uppity half-ape who hasn't even lived for a century yet. It simply isn't going to happen. Um, no. That's not how this works at all, and if that's how you run your games then you should go back to the basement and write your book away from the prying eyes and competing desires of other players. A DvR 1 god isn't actually that much more potent than any other epic monster, and even DvR 6+ deities can be defeated with the right spells and prep. Because they do in fact have stats and they follow the rules like everything else with a rule to follow in this game.

If you run a deity as a statless plot device, of course you can't kill it without the related macguffin. Because it's not a fight against the deity, it's a plot to be explored. The "fight" is just a bookend, and success is a foregone conclusion at that point. Saying "The DM won't let you" is even more useless because you won't win a fight again a kobold unless the DM allows it. But if you're playing with someone whose DM style is based on mother-may-I as a determining mechanic, you need a new DM.

[Aharon]

Concerning the claim that Imhotep is atrociously weak: While he is weak for a god, he still is rather impressive: linky (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20020405).

He has Int 43 and Prismatic Sphere at CL 11 at will. Played anywhere near competence, he knows he is hopelessly outmatched by just about anything around his power level (other gods, elder evils etc.) and will spam Prismatic Spheres around him every few rounds even if he doesn't, for some unimaginable reason, use the below tactic.

He also has True Creation as a spell-like (no XP or material components), so anywhere near the usual assumed TO competence, he should have infinite wealth from creating 11 cu. ft. of gold per level per casting. Infinite gold => Decked out with magic items => Eligible for Sofawall's Cube build or similar high-level, item-reliant tactics.

[Vaz]

Several possible explanations.

One is that the gods, as statted in Deities and Demigods, are tough but not unkillable. The usual "if it has stats I can kill it" mentality is in effect, and frankly, those gods were hardly optimized.
Precisely what I am on about. Everything else can be ignored. Imagine the same tricks that you'd pull as a Caster, and have them go up against a god. How would your Caster go up against Hercules with his At Will Miracle? How would you protect against his abilities and prevent his magic from affecting you? Even none optimized, a high powered opponent can do well; for example Steel Dragon Great Wyrms have 21st level spell casting; they can Wish themselves to Psi-Ref on Epic Spellcasting, and as such win, but assuming feat reselection like Dark Chaos Shuffle or PsiRef is out of the window (I'll make a note), how would you go about building a party (doesn't need to be one PC) to take down a god?

I've been playing long enough to know that a God who has access to CharOp tricks is unbeatable; if nothing else, they have the points and the feats to spare on getting every little bit they can out of their wishes, and that a God isn't just limited to Wizard 20/Cleric 20, they could be Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Red Wizard 5/Cleric 10/Contemplative 10, with Divine Metamagic out the wazoo, and a trillion billion clones providing cooperative metamagic and boosting CL.

Short of becoming PunPun/Omniscifier, where do you start with taking down a God? The only caveat is that unless you're somehow able to avoid detection by the god, they're aware of you coming to kill them, but despite this, they're actually engaging you in combat because they're so arrogant enough to fight you. Or it's an exact clone of the god because the god is that sneaky. So they might have a few weeks to prepare. Without either side going for NI/Arbitrary high stats, how do you go about killing them?


The usual "if it has stats I can kill it" mentality is in effect, and frankly, those gods were hardly optimized.

That is what you've said, as have many others, so prove it. If it can be killed, kill it.

[Envyus]

Well Vecna straight up won't be beaten by anyone that's not a god. His power to use any Divine or Arcane spell spontaneously along with his portfolio makes him unbeatable by anyone that is not a higher level god. The porfolio lets him know any secret, plot or plan that affects at least 100 people. Given that killing him will affect more then 100 people he will know of any plans made to kill him. Then using his broken powers he can crush them before they even make a plan that can beat him.

Also this means that Pun Pun can't beat Vecna as Vecna can kill him before he becomes all powerful.

[Zanos]

But that's basically it. If you play a god as a bag of stats, as written, they're killable. If you play them as gods, beings of unspeakable power and foresight, the PCs generally have no right to win. If the DM wants you to succeed, you will, otherwise you probably won't.
Deities in printed D&D are not beings of unspeakable power. They have been defeated in canon, are as fallible as mortals, bleed, and can be killed. Your interpretation of what the word god means does not extend to the printed deities. You're free to run deities as omnipotent in your own campaigns, but that's not how they work. 20th level characters are so far above typical mortals themselves that saying gods are so far above them is frankly ridiculous.

@OP: How does portfolio sense work in relation to this exercise? Plotting to kill the God of X probably triggers that, although for some of the weakest gods it probably doesn't really matter that they know. In addition, any god with the Hand of Death SDA is pretty much a no-go unless you manage to down them without them ever being aware of your existence or them being able to take a standard action.

[HunterOfJello]

Lets be honest guys. The four following factors make Imhotep a pushover.

Initiative: +7
AC: 26
Hit Dice: 20d6+140 (260 hp)
DR: 36/+4


Who here honestly can't make a pounce build for a level 15 melee character holding a +4 weapon that couldn't kill Imhotep in 1 round?


~~~~~~~~~

Some gods are insanely powerful. Other are very obviously not. Don't impose your ideas of what gods should be on the game when they have already been given stats that show how lousy some of them are supposed to be.

[malonkey1]

Also this means that Pun Pun can't beat Vecna as Vecna can kill him before he becomes all powerful.

Only if he actually plans to kill him. If Vecna appears for some reason, and Pun-Pun decides "Hey! Loot!!", Vecna may actually be boned. Or if he kills him by accident, which, knowing Pun-Pun, is quite probable.

[Shining Wrath]

You left out Io, father to Bahamut and Tiamat.

Described as having scales which are each larger than the largest dragon that ever lived. I don't think that WotC ever actually spec'd Io, so I'll take a guess.

Let's call him a way-beyond-Colossal creature with 1000 hit dice (12 siders), and then scale (you should pardon the expression) other dragons up to 1000 hit dice.

A Constitution of about 700, and a spell resistance of around 750 (since normal dragons have SR equal to about 3/4 of their HD). He's got 1000*(12+350)=362,000 hit points, saves of about 500 to 750, and a breath weapon of about 600 D10. And an armor class also around 1000.

And casting level abilities as a 500th level sorcerer.

Io is what the other gods want to be when they grow up.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I've been playing long enough to know that a God who has access to CharOp tricks is unbeatable; if nothing else, they have the points and the feats to spare on getting every little bit they can out of their wishes, and that a God isn't just limited to Wizard 20/Cleric 20, they could be Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Red Wizard 5/Cleric 10/Contemplative 10, with Divine Metamagic out the wazoo, and a trillion billion clones providing cooperative metamagic and boosting CL.
To a large extent, it's an optimization pissing contest. If a player can do it, a god-- with more time, levels, and so on to work with-- can absolutely do it better. You pull an incantrix? So does Vecna. Pull out an Omnificer? Guess what-- Vecna did that ages ago. But then, the same thing applies to any NPC, so I'm not sure what good talking about godly optimization does here. As a general rule, whoever optimized more wins.

[Vaz]

You left out Io, father to Bahamut and Tiamat.

Described as having scales which are each larger than the largest dragon that ever lived. I don't think that WotC ever actually spec'd Io, so I'll take a guess.

Let's call him a way-beyond-Colossal creature with 1000 hit dice (12 siders), and then scale (you should pardon the expression) other dragons up to 1000 hit dice.

A Constitution of about 700, and a spell resistance of around 750 (since normal dragons have SR equal to about 3/4 of their HD). He's got 1000*(12+350)=362,000 hit points, saves of about 500 to 750, and a breath weapon of about 600 D10. And an armor class also around 1000.

And casting level abilities as a 500th level sorcerer.

Io is what the other gods want to be when they grow up.

Congratulations. You've given stats to what doesn't have stats. Meanwhile, compared to the stats of the statted gods, which, you know, we are actually talking about.

@Grod; that's precisely what I'm saying, how can you optimize past that. Sure, Hercules has At Will Miracle, but his GDM is limited to CL35 and under. Any shenanigans, like CL1trillion scrolls and shapechange blah, blah, he can do, if you desire it. Any of them can get them PsiRef for Alter Reality, so tricks alongside that are off. And no, Vecna can't do the whole Incantatrix thing because those abilities are exclusively Incantatrix and not repeated elsewhere. Vecna doesn't have Incantatrix.

Say you're defeating Hercules. How would you create yourself CL36 buffs?

@Zanos; the Hand of Death ability is a [Death] effect (based off Destruction). Immunity to such affects, such as Deathward would prevent that. A god like Nerull with it would be able to identify it, and then attempt to dispel. How do you ensure he fails to dispel it?

Portfolio sense is something I hope I addressed in a later post; they are aware of the coming combat, but out of arrogance or hubris, or whatever else, they agree to the fight. It is a fight against the party, and the deity alone (although the deity can use his abilities/spellcasting etc to bring others into the room, provided he has the actions). For the purposes of the competition, they cannot flee a fight through their Teleport Without Error/Plane Shift abilities.

[Shining Wrath]

Several possible explanations.

One is that the gods, as statted in Deities and Demigods, are tough but not unkillable. The usual "if it has stats I can kill it" mentality is in effect, and frankly, those gods were hardly optimized.

Another is, as described above, the difference between playing a god as a monster and playing a god as a god. On mechanics alone, yes, a heavily optimized caster can rewrite the universe before the DM has had time to roll a die. But the fluff of deities strongly suggests that they would have advance warning of any such reality-rewrite, and thus would either have taken steps to render it ineffective, or would have simply snuffed out the offending character a month ago.

Most of these "god-killing" builds presume that the god is being fought on an even battleground as a normal encounter. But just as optimized spellcasters are compared to gods, gods are like optimized spellcasters taken to an outrageous degree. You never engage the Wizard in a fair fight; by the time you arrive on the battlefield he has a dozen contingencies, he has scryed to ensure that you will be precisely where he wants you when he wants you, and on the off chance you kill him you'll discover it was merely his astral duplicate and he's been monitoring the entire battle from the safety of his private demiplane, oh and the floor is made of exploding runes.

Gods are like that, but worse. You do not fight them on even terms. You do not fight them on your terms. You fight them on their terms, and their terms are "Heads, I win. Tails, you lose."

Note that "divine" means both "having the quality of a god" and "telling the future". Even if God X is not spec'd as having access to divination magic, someone in his pantheon does.

If you wanted to, you could argue that any attempt to kill any god, because of divination magic, immediately runs into an entire pantheon of like-aligned gods. You aren't taking out Imhotep, you're fighting Ra and Horus and all the rest of the good Egyptian gods.

Good luck with that.

As an intellectual exercise, though, imagining a one-on-one between your party and a deity is fun. Carry on!

[Phelix-Mu]

If the god has already decided to meet an optimized mortal(-ish) in straight up combat, the god probably should have died of stupidity long, long ago.

That aside, my issue with this is usually that a god is fought in their own section of their home plane. Where they control the divinely morphic features of that plane. That is a pretty darn big trump card. Not impossible to overcome, I'm sure, but, because the limit of the effect is hard to quantify, it's hard to counter.

[Grod_The_Giant]

@Grod; that's precisely what I'm saying, how can you optimize past that. Sure, Hercules has At Will Miracle, but his GDM is limited to CL35 and under. Any shenanigans, like CL1trillion scrolls and shapechange blah, blah, he can do, if you desire it.
Nah. The thing I'm saying is that the optimization challenge thing is always part of the game, from level 1 on. The DM can always pull out more stops than you if he wants.

To answer this question, then, I think there are two permuations:

What's the weakest character we can build who can take a god as statted by WotC*, but using intelligent (non-TO) tactics**?
What's the weakest character we can build who can take a god as statted by WotC, but acting as an unprepared beatstick***?

EDIT: With the further distinctions of "on their homeplane" and "in a featureless demiplane."

*Using the levels, skills, and feats as described in official sources, without retraining/psychic reformation/dark chaos shuffle/stuff of that nature, modified as per the bare minimum for compatibility with 3.5.
**Preparing spells intelligently, pre-buffing, using contingency, and so on, but stopping short of "intereacting with the world via astral projection/ice assassin of an alexa," Tippy-level paranoia.
***Using the sort of spells and tactics that WotC expects... let's say limit to the suggested spell lists as presented in the PHB 2, with equally-optimized replacements for any spells made obsolete by SQs or SLAs.

[Vaz]

What's the weakest character we can build who can take a god as statted by WotC*, but using intelligent (non-TO) tactics**?

This is the way forward, put so elegantly as well. At the end of the day, if you really to get into things like that, a Dorje of Psi-Ref can be got from followers; a Demigod has a few thousand followers; between Small and Large Town according to the DMG, which includes a maximum of 7th level Wizard, and hence presumably, Psion, in this instance. PsiRef is a 4th level power. PsiRef Alter Reality onto their abilities, and then they're Pun Pun+, so no, anything alongside the TO chicanery can be equalled and matched by RAW the weakest of the gods (excluding DvR 0).

[Phelix-Mu]

Is the fight on the deity's home turf? And can the deity bring their avatars/aspects along with them (don't even know if there are rules for that in this edition...used to be a limit to how many avatars could occupy the same plane at any one time)?

Come to think of it, I should probably find a more comprehensive explanation of what divinely morphic means. Guess I'll start in the DMG....

EDIT: Gah...really vague stuff, lol.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Is the fight on the deity's home turf? And can the deity bring their avatars/aspects along with them (don't even know if there are rules for that in this edition...used to be a limit to how many avatars could occupy the same plane at any one time)?
Let's say that there are options for on the deity's home turf, and in a featureless demiplane of infinite size and uniform density. Sidekicks only as prescribed through summons and leadership.

[Vaz]

Indeed. I'm not looking for someone to say that the deity has infinite time and lyres of building so sets off to build his own version of Tuckers Kobolds before you get there. Again, this is in a fight where he's arrogant enough to meet you in combat, but not so arrogant that he'll engage you in your prepared location. Perhaps he has to prove to his other gods of the pantheon/setting that he's worthy of being whatever rank he is by defeating 4 of the most powerful opponents that can be sent against him.

He is aware of the identity of the people who will challenge them in accordance with his portfolio sense (so 1 week/DvR), but that is all. No mechanical information, unless he has access to abilities written in his stat block that would enable him to scry on said people. He can then spend the rest of his time preparing for the fight. He may use no other individuals aid up until the fight itself. This means that he may only use equipment that is listed in his statblock, unless he takes the time to craft said equipment himself. He may have no more equipment than is typical for an ECL20 character, not including their already listed equipment. Both parties are completely rested going into the fight, and occurs at the time of choosing of the PC's, but note that the deity is still going to be aware of exactly when the fight will take place, so may well have buffs up ready. It is only once the fight has begun that the Deity can use their ability to pull in outside help.

For the purposes of the competition, any with the Avatar DSA may not use it; either the Avatar itself, or the ability to create one, as is their ability to make any of the PC's their familiar. If the party use any TO tricks, then the PC's can expect the same of the Deity. When making a challenge, the party should list which deities they believe they could take on. Each of these fights is considered to be its own entity, with each fight allowing the Deity to prepare for the fight for a duration not exceeding the Deities Portfolio sense in weeks.

[Flickerdart]

PsiRef Alter Reality onto their abilities
What part of Psychic Reformation allows you to pick different SDAs?

[Phelix-Mu]

It still feels like we are setting up an elaborate set of rulings designed to give the characters a chance. Which, to me, rhymes with "it's up to the DM whether or not you can beat a god."

But I do think the exercise will be interesting, so, by all means, proceed. I think, within those parameters, if it's off the god's home plane, and with roughly comparable resources between the god and the party (by wealth and minions deployable in advance), it sounds like such a party as could defeat a god of x does exist. Barring the x for which there is little in the game to be done about it (depending on DM reading).

[Envyus]

Only if he actually plans to kill him. If Vecna appears for some reason, and Pun-Pun decides "Hey! Loot!!", Vecna may actually be boned. Or if he kills him by accident, which, knowing Pun-Pun, is quite probable.

Well Pun-Pun's plan to become the most thing ever will set off his porfoilo sense and I doubt Vecna would let that happen. Him becoming all powerful would set off lots of gods portfoilo's and at least one of them would snuff him out before he got past step one.

Also Nerull won't die to any PC because if any of them could kill him he would know about his death 17 weeks before it happens giving him more then enough time to make sure the threat to him is gone. He is also a Wizard that can use any spell he wants spontaneously.

[BWR]

Um, no. That's not how this works at all, and if that's how you run your games then you should go back to the basement and write your book away from the prying eyes and competing desires of other players. A DvR 1 god isn't actually that much more potent than any other epic monster, and even DvR 6+ deities can be defeated with the right spells and prep. Because they do in fact have stats and they follow the rules like everything else with a rule to follow in this game.

If you run a deity as a statless plot device, of course you can't kill it without the related macguffin. Because it's not a fight against the deity, it's a plot to be explored. The "fight" is just a bookend, and success is a foregone conclusion at that point. Saying "The DM won't let you" is even more useless because you won't win a fight again a kobold unless the DM allows it. But if you're playing with someone whose DM style is based on mother-may-I as a determining mechanic, you need a new DM.

Translated: "You're playing the game wrong" and "but RAW"

You assume that "Deities and Demigods" and any related products are actually allowed and used in any given game. Some of us run games where gods are more like they were in 2e - unstat'ed plot devices. Or games like Mystara where one of the basic abilities all Immortals have is "Immune to mortal magic". Also, by saing that it is the wrong way to game, you are doing a great disservice to all GMs and players who play highly enjoyable rules-light games where 'mother may I', as you put it, is the main method for determining success or failure of anything.

Rules are suggestions for how things work. Rules are frameworks for games. Rules are there so you don't have to think of rules yourself. Rules are there to put people on the same page. Rules are there to help. Rules are there to make the game more enjoyable.
Rules are NOT there to tell you 'you MUST play the game this way'. Rules are NOT there to allow players to get away with **** their DM doesn't want them to. Rules are NOT there to make the game less enjoyable.

[Vaz]

In other words, you're not playing this game.

You wouldn't turn up to a game in Eberron, and say "get lost, I'm playing Forgotten Realms". You don't go into the Iron Chef challenges and state "I'm not using that Special Ingredient, I'm using X instead, it's much better". That's not how this exists. In this instance, I'm using Dieties and Demigods, as has been apparent, and now you're being obtuse and argumentative for the sake of only "proving" that you are "correct". (Incorrectly, as it were, you're wrong, in this instance).

Please, if you do not have anything to offer regarding the RAW application of how a party of 4 ECL20 Optimized characters can play against the statted gods using equal tactics and optimization (outside of their existing statted profile), then leave.


What part of Psychic Reformation allows you to pick different SDAs?

It was more to do with the generic wording of "decisions of these sorts". Such open ended usage of wording is the core of Theoretical Optimization (such as Pun Pun wishing to become a native of Toril for the purposes of Sarrukh's abilities being fundamental to its build working across settings), and I'd hope to avoid that. Not to mention that any character involving in anything to do with feat reorganising shenanigans would likely be up against a vastly more intelligent individual, with more feats and skill points than said 4x ECL Characters could achieve.

If we look at the typical baseline "best characters"; it's Cleric 10/Contemplative 10, Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Red Wizard 5, Druid 10/Planar Shepherd 10, and a Spell-to-Power Erudite 20 (a Psion might be able to do better with a StP Erudite being present in the campaign, but this is meant to be the native power of the characters, as opposed to the tricks of multiple characters). You do not have to use these classes, if you can build better of course. Assume setting is *All*; although bonus points for being setting neutral/not using cross-setting materials.

@Phelix-mu, yes, point taken, it is fairly "outside of DM's adjudication, gods are unbeatable"; I'd engage the Retraining/Rebuilding rules first of all to rebuild class levels, retraining to add on Epic Spellcasting/Manifesting etc, then there'd also be the whole Dark Chaos Shuffle, PsyRef, etc. Then they truely would be unbeatable, not to mention having them fully utilise their ability to engage and defeat the unprepared challengers.

[Aharon]

Lets be honest guys. The four following factors make Imhotep a pushover.

Initiative: +7
AC: 26
Hit Dice: 20d6+140 (260 hp)
DR: 36/+4


Who here honestly can't make a pounce build for a level 15 melee character holding a +4 weapon that couldn't kill Imhotep in 1 round?


~~~~~~~~~

Some gods are insanely powerful. Other are very obviously not. Don't impose your ideas of what gods should be on the game when they have already been given stats that show how lousy some of them are supposed to be.

How does the pouncer access Imhotep's plane, and how does he get around the stacked prismatic spheres?

Concerning the challenge:
How is this

What's the weakest character we can build who can take a god as statted by WotC*, but using intelligent (non-TO) tactics**?
to be interpreted with regards to this ability of Imhotep:

Create Magic Items: As a god of crafting, Imhotep can create any magic item whose primary purpose is healing or building, such as a wand of cure moderate wounds, a periapt of proof against poison, or sovereign glue, as long as the item's market price does not exceed 4,500 gp.
?
Primary Purpose, for example, is a bit fuzzy. I think potions, tiles, skull talismans etc. for spells from the "Wall of..." line should count, since a wall definitely is part of a building. Maybe even force cage, since a cage is also a kind of building. Healing is easier - basically potions, tiles and skull talismans of any spell that removes status conditions, heals HP or bestows fast healing/regeneration should be ok. Since this genius building expert doesn't have UMD, he can't use scrolls he could theoretically craft, limiting him to skull talismans - so he has healing and building spells of up to 5th level. Not great, but something.

[Grod_The_Giant]

How does the pouncer access Imhotep's plane, and how does he get around the stacked prismatic spheres?
1. Some item of plane shift. (There are a few just in the DMG; I think an Obsidean Steed may be the cheapest non-UMD-requiring option)
2. Ring of Spellstoring with disjunction in it? Or hell, maybe you have the defensive items to tank one. (Stacked spheres is certainly higher op than expected, I'd t


Primary Purpose, for example, is a bit fuzzy. I think potions, tiles, skull talismans etc. for spells from the "Wall of..." line should count, since a wall definitely is part of a building. Maybe even force cage, since a cage is also a kind of building. Healing is easier - basically potions, tiles and skull talismans of any spell that removes status conditions, heals HP or bestows fast healing/regeneration should be ok. Since this genius building expert doesn't have UMD, he can't use scrolls he could theoretically craft, limiting him to skull talismans - so he has healing and building spells of up to 5th level. Not great, but something.
That would be the PO use for it, I think. "As expected by WotC" probably means healing potions, wands of lesser restoration, stuff like that. Wall of Stone, maybe. Forcecage, almost certainly not. Ditto for Skull Talismans-- PO, yes. WotCO, no.

[Phelix-Mu]

How about Craft Contingent Spell? Can he craft one off of a talisman? Can he get a candle of invocation, gate a celestial, and get the celestial to provide the spellcasting? I'm wondering if he wouldn't have a bunch of contingent healing spells on himself or something. It's something I would do if I were a...divine expert. Lol.

Fluff-wise, lesser gods like Imhotep are pretty integral to the flavor of the pantheon of which he is part. For Egyptians, the building of sacred buildings and sites was a primary form of worship and a way to ensure participation in the "desirable" part of the afterlife (the part where your heart/soul isn't eaten by alligator god). As the divine builder, he'd have his superiors on speed-dial 3, the better to consult with them on the specifics of their latest temples and war barges.

That said, I think the best items that he should have are constructs to help him with *ahem* construction/deconstruction.:smallsmile:

As for the party, a simple combo of psions with StP erudites could have made all spells into powers and then psychic chirurgery them onto all of the psions. Ignoring the existence of Illithid Savants, these psions would be ideal, since the party's ability to accurately predict Imhotep's item loadout will complicate spell selection.

But the cleric/contemplative, incantatrix, and planar shepherd will probably handle it nicely; if the shepherd is allowed Xoriat, then that right there is probably enough to tip the tables. Surprised there hasn't been a Team Solars reference, but I guess that might even be overkill. A War Weaver might also be useful, but I'm not sure it's good enough to offset the other choices.

[Yawgmoth]

Translated: "You're playing the game wrong" and "but RAW"

You assume that "Deities and Demigods" and any related products are actually allowed and used in any given game. Some of us run games where gods are more like they were in 2e - unstat'ed plot devices. Or games like Mystara where one of the basic abilities all Immortals have is "Immune to mortal magic". Also, by saing that it is the wrong way to game, you are doing a great disservice to all GMs and players who play highly enjoyable rules-light games where 'mother may I', as you put it, is the main method for determining success or failure of anything.

Rules are suggestions for how things work. Rules are frameworks for games. Rules are there so you don't have to think of rules yourself. Rules are there to put people on the same page. Rules are there to help. Rules are there to make the game more enjoyable.
Rules are NOT there to tell you 'you MUST play the game this way'. Rules are NOT there to allow players to get away with **** their DM doesn't want them to. Rules are NOT there to make the game less enjoyable. You should start by rereading what I actually posted and end with not acting like a child, because I never said anything of the sort. If the PCs want to fight a god, then the DM should figure out how to run a game wherein the players have the chance to fight a god. An actual fight, not "find this un/holy potato that will negate SDAs" or anything like that. God are statted in 3e and thus we assume that such a book is in play when discussing this topic because this is the 3e forum. If you want to talk about how you'd do it in 2e/1e/WoD/Traveler/L5R, there's a different place for that (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?60-Older-D-amp-D-AD-amp-D-and-Other-Systems). If you want to talk about how to do this in 3e using the relevant 3e rules/books, then this is the thread for that.

Being a **** and saying "no you can't because I won't let you" IS playing wrong because it makes the game less enjoyable, first and foremost, and also because at that point you aren't "playing" anything except DM-May-I. If sitting around saying "can my/our character(s) do this?" and getting a y/n from someone else is your bag then by all means go ahead, but I wouldn't call it a game any more than I would call writing a novel and asking my friends for clever plot bumps a game.

[Phelix-Mu]

I think the nature of that dispute has already been settled as being off-topic by the OP, and we shouldn't waste time trading barbs about valid playstyles and the nature of the game.

If there is something that makes Imhotep killable, it's probably his terrible class build, as one would expect. If he was Wizard 20 or whatever, I'd feel less able to toss stones his way, especially since it will be mainly tier 1s casting the stones.

[Flickerdart]

It was more to do with the generic wording of "decisions of these sorts".
That's an incredible stretch. Psychic Reformation allow you to change psionic powers, feats, and skills you gained when levelling up. SDAs resemble none of these, nor are they gained during level-ups, nor can I find any text that suggests they are chosen at all (though I admittedly did not look very hard).

[Yawgmoth]

That's an incredible stretch. Psychic Reformation allow you to change psionic powers, feats, and skills you gained when levelling up. SDAs resemble none of these, nor are they gained during level-ups, nor can I find any text that suggests they are chosen at all (though I admittedly did not look very hard).

Salient Divine Abilities
A salient divine ability is like a feat—it gives a deity a new capability or improves one that the deity already has. A deity has one salient divine ability for each divine rank the deity has, plus additional salient divine abilities reflecting its status: Demigods receive one bonus ability, lesser deities receive two bonus abilities, intermediate deities receive three, and greater deities receive five. Seems relevant.

[Aharon]

Actually, cut the item crafting - despite what the excerpt implies, Imhotep can only create items he knows the prerequisite spells for (see Deities and Demigods, page 28).