Junkyard Wars in the Playground II

[Kazudo]

Welcome to Junkyard Stadium! It is in this hallowed pile of miscellaneous parts that we will hold a competition of Practical Optimization with three components: The catch? Competitors may not use the third item in their builds!

Contestants: You will need to present a write-up of your build at at least one of the following points: 5th level, 10th level, 15th, 20th, and a "sweet spot" that you feel is the high point of the build, as well as presenting a fully-fleshed out 20-level build in the table below. Feel free to present as many of these as you like, and please give a rundown of the build's abilities and playability at all of the levels you didn't show. The rules are as follows:

Goal: For most challenges, the "special components" will be drawn from Core plus Completes. There will, from time to time, be special challenges that showcase secret ingredients from other books--for example, the XPH.

32 point-buy is the presumed creation method, but we have generally allowed other levels of point-buy.
If you do use a different point-buy, please make your case for its necessity in your entry. Keep in mind that for using exceptionally large or small point-buys may warrant deductions in Build Stability and/or Power.

Workshop: Competitors will be free to use any official 3.5 rulebook in constructing their builds. Dragon magazine is disallowed, and Unearthed Arcana is allowed; but see Build Stability below. Web-exclusive 3.0 or 3.5 materials by WotC are expressly allowed, but take care to verify that an updated version did not appear in print elsewhere, as this may cause an Build Stability deduction at the judges' discretion. If you use web material, link it. Dragon Magazine Compendium is allowed. Alternate rule systems from UA such as gestalt are not allowed, as they create a different playing field. Also, item familiars are forbidden because I hate 'em. Please refrain from using Taint unless it's necessary for one or more of the Components.

Completion Time: Contestants will have until 11:59 PM GMT Thursday, May 1st, 2014 to create their builds and PM them to the Chairman, Kazudo. Builds will then be posted simultaneously, to avoid copying. Judges will have until 11:59 PM GMT Thursday, May 15th, 2014 to judge the builds and submit their scores. If no judges have scored by that point, only the scores of the first judge to submit will be counted.

Judging: Judging will be based on the following criteria, with each build rated from 1 (very poor) to 5 (exemplary) in each area: Originality, Power, Build Stability and Use of Secret Ingredient.

Power level is up to you. Cheese is acceptable, but should be kept to a sane level. Using words similar to another competition's predecessor, "A little cheese is ok, but avoid the mature gruyere unless making a cheese fondue." Or something similar, but with junkyard builds.

Build Stability is a change from the Iron Chef vein of competitions: Since the builds in this competition will inevitably be build differently than a meal, I've altered this judging term. It's a combination of terms to ensure that the build uses every component and that they synergize well together. The more class dips that a build has, the less stable it will be. The simpler the mechanics, the less chance of something going wrong.

Presentation: Builds will be posted anonymously, in order to avoid the potential of bias towards a particular competitor. For this reason, please don't put your name in the build, as I'm likely to miss it when reviewing the entries!


Due to concerns about standardizing entry format, I'd like everyone to try to use the following table for their entry.NAME OF ENTRY
LevelClassBase Attack BonusFort SaveRef SaveWill SaveSkillsFeatsClass Features


1stNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


2ndNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


3rdNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


4thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


5thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


6thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


7thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


8thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


9thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


10thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


11thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


12thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


13thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


14thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


15thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


16thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


17thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


18thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


19thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


20thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities




Table Code:


NAME OF ENTRY
LevelClassBase Attack BonusFort SaveRef SaveWill SaveSkillsFeatsClass Features


1stNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


2ndNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


3rdNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


4thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


5thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


6thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


7thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


8thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


9thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


10thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


11thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


12thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


13thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


14thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


15thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


16thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


17thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


18thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


19thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


20thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities




For entries with spellcasting or other systems (Psionics, ToB, Incarnum, etc.) keep track of spells per day/spells known/PP/maneuvers/essentia separately, preferably in a nice neat list.

Speculation: Please don't post or speculate on possible builds until the "reveal," in order to avoid spoiling the surprise if a particular competitor is producing a build along those lines.

Leadership is banned; we're creating one things, not a zillion things. If your entry includes a prestige class or ACF that grants Leadership or a Leadership-like ability as a bonus feat, the feat should be ignored and is not eligible to be traded away for another feat or ACF through any means.

So! Who wants to sign up as a contestant, and who wants to sign up as a judge? Looking for as many contestants and judges as feel like playing!

This competition has two Necessary Ingredients, and one Forbidden ingredient. The ingredients are:

1. Originally introduced in the Player's Handbook: Conjuration(Healing) Spells!
2. Originally introduced in the Tome of Battle: BoNS: The Ruby Knight Vindicator Prestige Class!
And the forbidden ingredient:
3. Originally introduced in the Player's Handbook: The Cleric Base Class!


We will award 1st through 3rd places, as well as a shout-out for honorable mention. The honorable mention prize is given to the most daring or unexpected build. Contestants are invited to vote for honorable mention via PM. Everyone else can vote in-thread.

Ready? Steady? Get to the junkyard and start building!

Previous Competitions:
Sneak Attack and Shadowdancer, but no Rogue! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?337864-Junkyard-Wars-in-the-Playground-I&p=17325972)

[Kazudo]

Concerning Judging: Any and all judging must take into account the following:

There are four judging categories:

1. Originality, a judging of how "original" a build is. Scaled from 1-5 points.
2. Power, a judging of how "powerful" a build is. Scaled from 1-5 points.
3. Build Stability, a judging of the balance between the elements of the build. Scaled from 1-5 points.
4. Use of Secret Ingredient, a judging of the balance between the secret ingredients. Scaled from 1-5 points.

For the first attempt, we tried three categories which led to some concerns. As a result of which, I'll be returning to a much more classic "Iron Chef" judging, substituting the notion of "Elegance" with "Build Stability".

That being said, let's get going!

[Kazudo]

brb getting a time machine to submit my entry.

But seriously I love everything about these ingredients, though this is obviously a much higher power level than the previous challenge. I'll try to get something in as long as we have at least a couple weeks for submission.

I have no idea what you're talking about!


Concerning power level, yes! It is. Sometimes in Junkyard Wars you'll be expected to make a simple glider. Sometimes, I just want a good old fashioned tank to blow things up with!

[Seerow]

Deleted my post because I didn't intend to preempt your followup post. But apparently you snuck in a quote of it anyway!

But yeah I'm going to try to be in for this one too.

[dextercorvia]

In like Errol.

Your copy pasta in the 1st post missed the new category for UoSI

[sakuuya]

Aw, crap, the Secret Ingredient allows for builds that are actually powerful? I'm so screwed, you guys. :smalleek:

[WhamBamSam]

Dang. I might have to come up with something for this along with the current Iron Chef.

How are you ruling with regard to the Divine Impetus dysfunction? Is it a free action for the purposes of this competition?

[Kazudo]

The way I'm reading it it could be:

1. No action specified, none needed.
2. No action specified, uses Turn Undead's action but for different result.

This also lends itself to the additional problem of

1. Usable once per turn
2. Usable whenever Turn Undead is usable
3. Usable as many times as possible, limited by the "per day".

Turn Undead is considered an attack, so it would take up the same space of time as an attack action. An attack action takes up (unless I'm reading blind stumbling drunk again) a standard action. So the question if my logic follows is:

1. It specifies no action, therefore no action is needed. Free action.
2. It uses Turn Undead's action, which is a standard action.

I'd have to say that I"ll go with numbers 1 and 3 respectively. So, unless anyone can provide RAW to the contrary, the ruling on Divine Impetus is:

It uses a free action and is not limited in number of iterations per round.

[Seerow]

Just out of curiosity, since it is irrelevant to this build.... is it possible to get a divine caster (to advance with RKV) that does not have Conjuration(Healing) spells? It just feels like the second required ingredient is almost... automatic.

[Windstorm]

definitely have ideas rolling around in my head for this. going to start working on it right away :smallamused:

[Kazudo]

Just out of curiosity, since it is irrelevant to this build.... is it possible to get a divine caster (to advance with RKV) that does not have Conjuration(Healing) spells? It just feels like the second required ingredient is almost... automatic.

It really is, but the punchline is going to be beefing up those Conjuration(Healing) spells to be as relevant and NOT be as heavily overshadowed by RKV's other stuff.

Yaknow. Without speculating TOO much.

[WhamBamSam]

The way I'm reading it it could be:

1. No action specified, none needed.
2. No action specified, uses Turn Undead's action but for different result.

This also lends itself to the additional problem of

1. Usable once per turn
2. Usable whenever Turn Undead is usable
3. Usable as many times as possible, limited by the "per day".

Turn Undead is considered an attack, so it would take up the same space of time as an attack action. An attack action takes up (unless I'm reading blind stumbling drunk again) a standard action. So the question if my logic follows is:

1. It specifies no action, therefore no action is needed. Free action.
2. It uses Turn Undead's action, which is a standard action.

I'd have to say that I"ll go with numbers 1 and 3 respectively. So, unless anyone can provide RAW to the contrary, the ruling on Divine Impetus is:

It uses a free action and is not limited in number of iterations per round.(Su) abilities generally require a standard action per the rules. So RAW Divine Impetus just straight up does not function. RAI was probably for it to be a free action, but some people like to limit it to 1/turn.

[Kazudo]

For the purposes of a PO competition, I'm not going to limit it thusly since there's really no RAW to support either way, and RAW is a myth anyway. So as far as this Chairman's humble RAI opinion dictates, I think we'll call it an unlimited free action and be done with it.

If there's way too much gimmick abuse, the judges might count off for it. Alternatively, the judges might be disappointed if there's not ENOUGH gimmick abuse.

That's the beauty of competitions like these!

[Windstorm]

a big question: given the text of RKV does not require the turn/rebuke attempts to explicitly be a class feature, do we still qualify for entry if it is acquired by non CF means?

obviously acquisition by item is a huge knock on build stability, but there are several semipermanent methods of acquisition that aren't classes or ACFs.

[Kazudo]

RKV is not in Complete Arcane or Warrior, so you can't un-qualify for the prestige class once you're in it. You're correct about impermanent methods of entry garnering a possible knock in build stability, but if the gains are worth it, it's probably better than playing it safe.

[dextercorvia]

Just out of curiosity, since it is irrelevant to this build.... is it possible to get a divine caster (to advance with RKV) that does not have Conjuration(Healing) spells? It just feels like the second required ingredient is almost... automatic.

There are a couple ways that I can think of.

[Firechanter]

For the purposes of a PO competition, I'm not going to limit it thusly since there's really no RAW to support either way,

The RAW is very clear on this. If a (Su) Ability has no action specified, it automatically defaults to a Standard Action. Just as WhamBam said.
Of course that would make this ability rather useless, so also as he said, it should be houseruled to a Free Action, but limited to once per turn.

Unlimited DI uses are anything but Practical Optimization. It's the most ridiculous TO imaginable.
Sorry, I love the RKV and I'd be happy to look at a Clericless build, but not under these PO-unsuitable non-constraints.

[dextercorvia]

Really, N Swift actions per turn from RKV is known cheese (whether legal or not), and should be viewed as such by the judges. I don't think we need a ruling on it. Each builder can build under whichever circumstance they feel best, and judges can decide how that ranks in Originality, Power, UoSI, and Build Stability. So, if your build capitalizes on it, hope for enough boost in one category or from one judge to make up for what you lose.

[Kazudo]

The RAW is very clear on this. If a (Su) Ability has no action specified, it automatically defaults to a Standard Action. Just as WhamBam said.
Of course that would make this ability rather useless, so also as he said, it should be houseruled to a Free Action, but limited to once per turn.

Unlimited DI uses are anything but Practical Optimization. It's the most ridiculous TO imaginable.
Sorry, I love the RKV and I'd be happy to look at a Clericless build, but not under these PO-unsuitable non-constraints.

I'm sorry, but you're wrong. It's Practical Optimization if the builders have the understanding that crossing into TO will likely garner a point deduction. There's a fine line between the two, and it all comes down to abuse. So yes, it's a Free Action and unlimited per turn. No, that doesn't mean that you have to go entirely 110% crazy with it and there's no guarantee that you have to either way. On the other hand, if you'd like to cite your source for your RAW claim, then I'll reverse my decision and follow the RAW.

[Svata]

Could POSSIBLY throw something together for this. No garuntees though.

[Firechanter]

On the other hand, if you'd like to cite your source for your RAW claim, then I'll reverse my decision and follow the RAW.

It's right there in the SRD, chapter "Actions in Combat".
Quote:
Supernatural Abilities: Using a supernatural ability is usually a standard action (unless defined otherwise by the ability’s description). Its use cannot be disrupted, does not require concentration, and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

The Divine Impetus description does not define the required action. Hence, it defaults to Standard.

[Kazudo]

Thanks, Firechanter.

In that case Divine Impetus takes a standard action to grant a swift action and is usable as many times per round as you can cram it in.

More challenge, I suppose.

[Firechanter]

You're welcome. I was quite amazed when I first was made aware of this.

[Windstorm]

Usually I see it ruled as free action activation ( or the ability doesn't make sense) but limited to 1/turn as supported by the text.

AFB atm, but the line went something like: "spend an attempt to gain one additional swift action this turn"

[Kazudo]

Usually I see it ruled as free action activation ( or the ability doesn't make sense) but limited to 1/turn as supported by the text.

AFB atm, but the line went something like: "spend an attempt to gain one additional swift action this turn"

The idea is that there are certain things which can ONLY be done as swift actions, which you typically only get one of. The idea is that if you've got an extra standard action to spare for some reason you can get two swift actions per turn to do the things that can only be done as swift actions.

I may be stumbling blind drunk again (which is awkward, because I'm at work) but aren't readying maneuvers and changing stances swift actions ONLY?

[Xerlith]

You're welcome. I was quite amazed when I first was made aware of this.

This... Nerfs it so much. I like it. I think.

Aaaand I'm in as a contestant.

INB4: Is Cloistered Cleric out as well? :smallbiggrin:

[OMG PONIES]

Yes Divine Impetus becomes less of an "I Win" button with the RAW reading. However, it still provides a unique mechanic, as I don't know of anywhere else in 3.5 where you can trade a standard action in for a swift. IIRC, that was a creation of 4E with minor actions. So it's not that it doesn't work or doesn't make sense as written...it just doesn't rip the game wide open.

[Xerlith]

Okay. If time allows, there'll be three builds from me...

[Kuulvheysoon]

I've... got a hilariously bad idea for this. If nothing else it'll get me "What the hell was he smoking?" points.

[Kazudo]

I've... got a hilariously bad idea for this. If nothing else it'll get me "What the hell was he smoking?" points.

Yes! Good! That's the mindset!

[PraxisVetli]

I'm so in!

[NoACWarrior]

Although I'd like to do this one, I simply don't have the time to review ToB (I just bought it). I'd like to judge though, and the extra time would give me enough time to review maneuvers and stances.

Regarding non-qualifying for PRCs... is that a new thing for ToB which allows you to semi qualify for a PrC then do a rebuild and still keep the PrC without having the prerequisites?

And speaking of which, with not having to qualify for RKV in order to keep the levels on a rebuild, are rebuilds allowed?

Something I was thinking about was 5 levels in paladin, then taking RKV and then rebuilding to a favored soul and getting turn / rebuke elsewhere.

[Kazudo]

Actually the only books that say that it's required for you to maintain the prerequisites or lose the class are in Complete Arcane and Complete Warrior. The rest don't have anything that say anything along those lines at all. Unless you can provide RAW that generalizes to all Prestige classes.

[NoACWarrior]

Actually the only books that say that it's required for you to maintain the prerequisites or lose the class are in Complete Arcane and Complete Warrior. The rest don't have anything that say anything along those lines at all. Unless you can provide RAW that generalizes to all Prestige classes.

How very neat!

Rebuild quests ftw then.

[Seerow]

Actually the only books that say that it's required for you to maintain the prerequisites or lose the class are in Complete Arcane and Complete Warrior. The rest don't have anything that say anything along those lines at all. Unless you can provide RAW that generalizes to all Prestige classes.

Huh.

If that's the ruling the competition is going with, this just got much more interesting. I've always seen it used that the referenced rule is applied universally, but I'm not going to argue the point.

[Kazudo]

I had typically done the same. I would consider Retraining and Rebuilds and such as "associated material" or "additional notes", since relying on it for a build may not be PARTICULARLY stable. A build that has a 5 in originality, power, and UoSI with a 1 in Build Stability will place higher than a build which scores a 3 in all fields.

[Ikeren]

Table code has gone funny in first post.

[PraxisVetli]

I'm hoping this goes better than my Iron Chef.
This seems more up my ally though.

[WhamBamSam]

I've... got a hilariously bad idea for this. If nothing else it'll get me "What the hell was he smoking?" points.I wonder if we're doing something similar. I've got a rough draft of a build stubbed out on scratch paper which is clearly the product of a diseased mind.

I have second idea as well, which is more stable, but less interesting. It's finals time though, and I would kind of like to graduate, so that one may not end up being submitted.

[NoACWarrior]

I've... got a hilariously bad idea for this. If nothing else it'll get me "What the hell was he smoking?" points.

This is precisely why I'll be judging this round as well and not participating. I just can't get over the crazy stuff I might do which is going to look cool but be mechanically bad. On the other note, I couldn't figure out how to end up with dual casting with access to 8-9th level spells, with infinite turning, and using maneuvers.

And before anyone else says its possible, if you think it is just submit a build instead :smallwink:
And please don't speculate how to do what I wanted to do, build speculation isn't allowed here :smallbiggrin:

[Ikeren]

with infinite turning,

Once the competition is complete, I'd like an explanation of this, unless it's just traditional infinite stat tricks.

[OMG PONIES]

Although I'd like to do this one, I simply don't have the time to review ToB (I just bought it). I'd like to judge though, and the extra time would give me enough time to review maneuvers and stances.

Are you saying you don't have time to review the source that you'll be judging us on, or that you don't have time to review it by the cooking deadline but you do have time to review it by the judging deadline? :smallconfused: The latter makes sense, but the former seems a bit iffy.


Regarding non-qualifying for PRCs... is that a new thing for ToB which allows you to semi qualify for a PrC then do a rebuild and still keep the PrC without having the prerequisites?

And speaking of which, with not having to qualify for RKV in order to keep the levels on a rebuild, are rebuilds allowed?

Something I was thinking about was 5 levels in paladin, then taking RKV and then rebuilding to a favored soul and getting turn / rebuke elsewhere.


Actually the only books that say that it's required for you to maintain the prerequisites or lose the class are in Complete Arcane and Complete Warrior. The rest don't have anything that say anything along those lines at all. Unless you can provide RAW that generalizes to all Prestige classes.

You rang?


If reallocating your character's class levels disqualifies him for a prestige class in which he already has one or more levels, he loses the benefit of any class features or other special abilities granted by that prestige class. He retains the hit points gained from advancing in that class, as well as any improvements to base attack bonus and base save bonuses that those levels provided. However, you can always use the class level rebuilding option to replace the now-useless prestige class levels as well--and you probably should, unless you're sure that the character will be able to meet the requirements again soon.

So rebuilding cannot be used to wrangle yourself out of PrC prerequisites while keeping PrC abilities.

[Kazudo]

And there it is! PONIES to the rescue!

...However, that only covers the one method.

[NoACWarrior]

Are you saying you don't have time to review the source that you'll be judging us on, or that you don't have time to review it by the cooking deadline but you do have time to review it by the judging deadline? :smallconfused: The latter makes sense, but the former seems a bit iffy.

You rang?

So rebuilding cannot be used to wrangle yourself out of PrC prerequisites while keeping PrC abilities.

The second. I can review the general mechanics in time, but figuring out cool combos and the like isn't something I have time for. If I try to read the passages for the ability descriptions I'll end up getting stuck on just the abilities and compulsively try to find combos.

The question I have about rebuilding is that when you still meet the prerequisites a rebuilt is valid right?
But the progression of abilities through a rebuilt is unimportant as its not the same as leveling / building a character, thus you can drop turn/rebuke/channel in your first 3 levels, picking up something else, and pick up turn/rebuke/channel in levels after the PrC.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I actually have a couple of extremely... out of the box... ideas. In fact, I may well end up using [REDACTED], which should be quite the surprise. The other is less surprising and more 'wut'.

Time to pull out my [SPLATBOOK] and see if I can't get this thing going.

[Jeff the Green]

Is the RKV variant that doesn't worship Wee Jas allowed? I have a couple ideas but at least one would require worshipping a different deity.

[Kazudo]

I am going to go with the "fluff is mutable" answer there. You can use the RKV variant that doesn't worship Wee Jas.

[NoACWarrior]

I personally think that Wee Jas is a nice idea for RP given the sources for turn / rebuke / channel.
Otherwise, having Wee Jas is kinda meh other than an author's note which gives her the pride domain for clerics (though clerics are a banned ingredient here)

[Ikeren]

I am going to go with the "fluff is mutable" answer there. You can use the RKV variant that doesn't worship Wee Jas.

Wee Jas dangnabbit!

I just came up with a clever build that used obscure items from everywhere to make the worshipping Wee Jas thing work.

[Ikeren]

And submitted. Now to work on a Dwarven Defender!

[vhfforever]

I may have something for this one...it may bomb completely, but hopefully it's out of the box enough to merit some raised eyebrows.

[dysprosium]

Consider me a participant in one way or the other.

It will probably boil down to if I get to submit for Iron Chef I will judge Junkyard and vice versa.

[Somensjev]

i might try to participate, depends on whether or not i can make an entry :smallbiggrin:

don't expect too much :smalleek:

[sakuuya]

And submitted. Now to work on a Dwarven Defender!

That was probably a smart order to tackle these in. I'm bogged down in Dwarven Defender right now (I can't believe I thought Shadowdancer was a terrible class!), which'll probably lead to another last-minute submission here. My lofty goal is to get a build in a full half hour before this closes. :smallbiggrin:

[Seerow]

That was probably a smart order to tackle these in. I'm bogged down in Dwarven Defender right now (I can't believe I thought Shadowdancer was a terrible class!), which'll probably lead to another last-minute submission here. My lofty goal is to get a build in a full half hour before this closes. :smallbiggrin:

I actually had a much easier time (and more ideas) for Dwarven Defender than Shadowdancer.

And I'm actually having second thoughts about competing in this one. With RKV the power expectation is going to be somewhere just shy of "solo the entire monster manual simultaneously in a single round", and I'm not sure I can meet that. I'm also having trouble coming up with anything that I would score high in originality that doesn't gimp power dramatically. I'll stew on it for the next week or so, but I may end up sitting it out.

[sakuuya]

I actually had a much easier time (and more ideas) for Dwarven Defender than Shadowdancer.

And I'm actually having second thoughts about competing in this one. With RKV the power expectation is going to be somewhere just shy of "solo the entire monster manual simultaneously in a single round", and I'm not sure I can meet that. I'm also having trouble coming up with anything that I would score high in originality that doesn't gimp power dramatically. I'll stew on it for the next week or so, but I may end up sitting it out.

If you don't compete, be a judge with lower power expectations!

...I'm definitely not suggesting this just because I have the same power/originality concerns you do. Nooo. :smallwink:

[Ikeren]

In the end, my intuitive idea for Dwarven Defender seems better and cleaner than my intuitive idea for Shadowdancer did, but in each of these competitions I've just built the first thing that came to my head, looked up appropriate things and tweaked as necessary.

Though it did take some 4 hours to do my feats...

[Xerlith]

This... Is a subtle question - Is chaining variants from Unearthed Arcana considered legal? I mean, for example, Prestige Paladin of Freedom. If so, if there was (still example only!) a Prestige Paladin of Freedom who traded his Mount for Charging Smite legal? :smallbiggrin:

[Seerow]

This... Is a subtle question - Is chaining variants from Unearthed Arcana considered legal? I mean, for example, Prestige Paladin of Freedom. If so, if there was (still example only!) a Prestige Paladin of Freedom who traded his Mount for Charging Smite legal? :smallbiggrin:

I don't see any reason why not, as long as you're still a Paladin and still trading the special mount (read: Whatever variant you actually plan on using doesn't remove/replace the feature you're trading for the second ACF).

[OMG PONIES]

And there it is! PONIES to the rescue!

...However, that only covers the one method.

Right, rebuilding was the only method under discussion, wasn't it?


The second. I can review the general mechanics in time, but figuring out cool combos and the like isn't something I have time for. If I try to read the passages for the ability descriptions I'll end up getting stuck on just the abilities and compulsively try to find combos.

Ah, cool, makes sense then.


The question I have about rebuilding is that when you still meet the prerequisites a rebuilt is valid right?
But the progression of abilities through a rebuilt is unimportant as its not the same as leveling / building a character, thus you can drop turn/rebuke/channel in your first 3 levels, picking up something else, and pick up turn/rebuke/channel in levels after the PrC.

I think that part is up to the individual DM/judge. The text on rebuilding never mentions anything about regaining lost class features, but it does say
...you can always use the class level rebuilding option to replace the now-useless prestige class levels as well--and you probably should, unless you're sure that the character will be able to meet the requirements again soon.
I'm unclear on whether that means you ever regain your lost abilities, since nothing is explicitly stated about it. However, assuming you do, I don't know if the quoted text is referring to additional rebuilding to meet requirements prior to the first level of the PrC or meeting requirements in levels after the PrC. In any case, if it's legal it would take a lot of discussion with the DM. YMMV, but I've always found that sort of thing to cause headaches in Elegance (or, in this competition, Build Stability). I remember the high blood pressure I got trying to convince folks how a Savant could qualify for both Unseen Seer and Black Flame Zealot :smalltongue:.


This... Is a subtle question - Is chaining variants from Unearthed Arcana considered legal? I mean, for example, Prestige Paladin of Freedom. If so, if there was (still example only!) a Prestige Paladin of Freedom who traded his Mount for Charging Smite legal? :smallbiggrin:

You have to be very careful about which variants are chained. The example provided would not be legal, since Paladin of Freedom is a variant to the paladin base class while prestige paladin is only for use in games that don't allow the paladin base class.


These paladin variants aren't meant to be unique classes in and of themselves, but rather alignment-based variations of the paladin. They have the same Hit Die, skill points per level, weapon and armor proficiencies, and spells per day as the standard paladin. Their class skill lists are nearly identical, with exceptions noted below. Their spellcasting functions identically to that of the standard paladin (though their spell lists are somewhat different). When a class feature has the same name as a paladin class feature, it functions the same as the one described for the standard paladin.

If you use any of the variant classes presented here, the standard version of the class should be unavailable. For instance, you shouldn't include both the standard paladin character class and the paladin prestige class in the same game.

Thus, while some variant chains may be allowed, this one does not follow RAW.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I'm unclear on whether that means you ever regain your lost abilities, since nothing is explicitly stated about it. However, assuming you do, I don't know if the quoted text is referring to additional rebuilding to meet requirements prior to the first level of the PrC or meeting requirements in levels after the PrC. In any case, if it's legal it would take a lot of discussion with the DM. YMMV, but I've always found that sort of thing to cause headaches in Elegance (or, in this competition, Build Stability). I remember the high blood pressure I got trying to convince folks how a Savant could qualify for both Unseen Seer and Black Flame Zealot :smalltongue:.

Hey, I agreed with your reading, man. Totally got your back.:smallwink:


You have to be very careful about which variants are chained. The example provided would not be legal, since Paladin of Freedom is a variant to the paladin base class while prestige paladin is only for use in games that don't allow the paladin base class.

Thus, while some variant chains may be allowed, this one does not follow RAW.Most ACFs also only apply to specific levels, as well, so there's something else to keep an eye out for.

EDIT: It just occured to me, while reading the RKV: If you're neutral, what type of bonus is the Divine fury (Su) class feature? It says sacred if Good, and profane if Evil. Can you choose, if you're neutral?

[WhamBamSam]

EDIT: It just occured to me, while reading the RKV: If you're neutral, what type of bonus is the Divine fury (Su) class feature? It says sacred if Good, and profane if Evil. Can you choose, if you're neutral?
Divine Fury (Su): From 9th level on, you can directly channel Wee Jas’s divine energy into your martial strikes. As a free action, you can spend a turn or rebuke undead attempt to add a +4 sacred (or profane, if you are evil) bonus on your attack roll with one martial strike this turn. In addition to its normal effects, the strike deals an extra 1d10 points of damage.Emphasis mine. It doesn't say anything about needing to be good for it to be sacred. It just says it's profane if you're evil. I think it just defaults to sacred if you're neutral.

[Jeff the Green]

So, are we allowed to submit more than one build? I've got two ideas written up; one considerably more powerful and one more unusual.

[NoACWarrior]

I actually had a much easier time (and more ideas) for Dwarven Defender than Shadowdancer.

And I'm actually having second thoughts about competing in this one. With RKV the power expectation is going to be somewhere just shy of "solo the entire monster manual simultaneously in a single round", and I'm not sure I can meet that. I'm also having trouble coming up with anything that I would score high in originality that doesn't gimp power dramatically. I'll stew on it for the next week or so, but I may end up sitting it out.

The issue is that if you end up at T1 you don't get any additional points in my book, and T2 is only 1 more point than T3. Going from T3 to T2 is really really hard if you don't have a sheer power - this means getting around the same spell advancement as a sorcerer or favored soul by 15th level or so, with the 20th level requiring level 9 spells.

This isn't about making the most powerful character, its about making the most original build which can properly perform in most situations and be useful.

[Vaz]

(Su) abilities generally require a standard action per the rules. So RAW Divine Impetus just straight up does not function. RAI was probably for it to be a free action, but some people like to limit it to 1/turn.

It's the only way to get an additional swift action in the game; the broken reading of infinite (Quick Draw+Nightstick) Swift Actions just ain't allowed by RAW anyway. Unless explicitly stated, (Su) are Standard actions. There's no RAW way of letting a swift action be used as a standard, so you can only do one swift action spell a turn. It does function, just not in the way CO wanted to misread it as.

The RAW answer is you can swap your Standard Action to grant you an additional Swift, Kazudo. I understand if you want to make it different to draw people in, but there you go!

[NoACWarrior]

It's the only way to get an additional swift action in the game; the broken reading of infinite (Quick Draw+Nightstick) Swift Actions just ain't allowed by RAW anyway. Unless explicitly stated, (Su) are Standard actions. There's no RAW way of letting a swift action be used as a standard, so you can only do one swift action spell a turn. It does function, just not in the way CO wanted to misread it as.

The RAW answer is you can swap your Standard Action to grant you an additional Swift, Kazudo. I understand if you want to make it different to draw people in, but there you go!

I personally don't think that the ability is that bad, there would be situations I'd trade a standard action for a swift action, especially when I'm saving my immediate action or want to double the effect of a swift action effect. That said, I'd like to see people use this effectively :smallwink:

[Ikeren]

While it's the part of the prestige class that gets the most attention because of the action-economy element of it, I'd like to remind people that the prestige class has a stack of other useful elements :smallsmile:

[Jeff the Green]

While it's the part of the prestige class that gets the most attention because of the action-economy element of it, I'd like to remind people that the prestige class has a stack of other useful elements :smallsmile:

Eh, it's really a 50/50 useful/useless ratio for the class abilities, really. Divine Recovery is cool (though it would be better if it were easier to enter as a swordsage), and Divine Impetus is superluminal awesomesauce, but Armored Stealth can be otherwise replicated and Divine Fury is too weak for when you get it to see much use.

Really the best part of the class is the progression of spells and maneuvers. 8/10 is pretty good (it allows 9ths, though it'd be difficult to manage in this competition) and you get access to three of the best disciplines. And Stone Dragon (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MyFriendsAndZoidberg).

[Telonius]

Got a couple ideas ... should be interesting. Both kind of counter-intuitive. Hope this goes better than the last one for me!

[Joe the Rat]

Just out of curiosity, since it is irrelevant to this build.... is it possible to get a divine caster (to advance with RKV) that does not have Conjuration(Healing) spells? It just feels like the second required ingredient is almost... automatic.
It depends on how literally you mean divine without healing spells - as a class, or as an individual?
The trick is getting Heal-Free divine casting and Turn Undead.

[Telonius]

Yeah, as an individual, it's pretty trivial to qualify without healing - just be a Favored Soul and don't pick any Healing spells for your spells known.

[Jeff the Green]

Yeah, as an individual, it's pretty trivial to qualify without healing - just be a Favored Soul and don't pick any Healing spells for your spells known.

It's not hard to make a character that couldn't possibly get healing spells. Divine Crusader of a deity without the Healing domain plus Dread Necromancer. It'd have horrible stability and the power's iffy, but it's manageable.

[Vaz]

Why are we speculating? I've had one idea of mine mentioned already. I'd prefer not to "waste my time" of entering if the judges are just going to mark down for something people have mentioned in the lead up, Cheers.

Meanwhile back to the drawing board.

[OMG PONIES]

Why are we speculating? I've had one idea of mine mentioned already. I'd prefer not to "waste my time" of entering if the judges are just going to mark down for something people have mentioned in the lead up, Cheers.

Meanwhile back to the drawing board.

Agreed re: speculation, but am I reading something wrong? From what I can see, Conjuration (healing) spells aren't the forbidden ingredient; they're one of the required ones! :smallconfused:

[dextercorvia]

Agreed re: speculation, but am I reading something wrong? From what I can see, Conjuration (healing) spells aren't the forbidden ingredient; they're one of the required ones! :smallconfused:

But they were also talking about ways to get Turn/Rebuke which is required for one of the required ingredients.

[Kazudo]

Yeah. Speculation's bad. Kweet it.

In other news, I've already begun getting submissions, and yesterday my minion count went up by one!

[Kuulvheysoon]

I just need to fluff my entry, and it'll be done.

A pretty entertaining round, actually.

[Ikeren]

I realized a clever trick for my build after submitting, can I add an addendum?


Eh, it's really a 50/50 useful/useless ratio for the class abilities, really. Divine Recovery is cool (though it would be better if it were easier to enter as a swordsage), and Divine Impetus is superluminal awesomesauce, but Armored Stealth can be otherwise replicated and Divine Fury is too weak for when you get it to see much use.

Really the best part of the class is the progression of spells and maneuvers. 8/10 is pretty good (it allows 9ths, though it'd be difficult to manage in this competition) and you get access to three of the best disciplines. And Stone Dragon.

Divine Recovery has some utility (for when you really need something specific), and Divine Fury is an occasional bit of extra damage; nothing to snuff at.

But I was actually referring to chasis features; spell/maneuver progression, full BAB.

[WhamBamSam]

I realized a clever trick for my build after submitting, can I add an addendum?You can probably just send in a revised version. I do it pretty much every round in Iron Chef.

[dysprosium]

Exactly. As long as the dish has not been revealed yet, it shouldn't be a problem. Just make sure you label the addendum/revision clearly. I had a couple in the last round of Zinc Saucier.

[Ikeren]

Yeah, I just sent in an addendum. It's hilarious.

[Kazudo]

Re: multiple submissions:
Yep. There's no limit to the number of submissions, however since they're posted individually and anonymously, posting builds too similar could wind up hurting you in originality, while dividing your attention amongst multiple projects could hurt the individual product's quality. However, if you don't have any trouble multitasking, go ahead!

Had a few questions submitted I feel I should address.
Re: Turning Attempts:
The same thing came up in Episode I concerning Sneak Attack: anything that says that it furthers Turning Attempts won't work unless you already HAVE turn undead or that specific thing grants some. This gets interesting when you talk about stacking levels, so I'll put it like I did back in episode one (which may, now that I think about it, have been in a PM):
Let's say you've got a Marrulurk Swashbuckler who then takes Daring Outlaw. He qualifies for the feat by nature of his race and levels in Swashbuckler, so it works. It stacks his X levels in Swashbuckler with his Y levels in Rogue. He has no levels in rogue. X+0=X, so he's considered an Xth level rogue for the purposes of determining sneak attack dice. In this case, it's how it works as well. These two are different circumstances, since in the first issue you're advancing a class feature you have to have first, and in the second issue you're stacking class levels which essentially grant you the class feature and advance it as though you advanced in the base class.

Re: Percentages:
When taking a template or using a race or game mechanic that has a percentage chance to grant certain racial features, class features, special attacks, or similar, choose the option that fits the build the best. For completion's sake, one should likely include (in an Adaptations section) how to compensate for rolling some of the other possibilities and how they'd affect the build.

Re: Revised Submissions:
As long as it's before the reveal, I'll gladly alter any entries as long as the submissions and revisions are formatted well. Afterwards, unless it's an error in formatting or content that was in the submission but, for some reason didn't make it into the posted entry, PM me and I'll either fix it or explain why the segment was omitted. Omission will only take place in the event of material that may break forum rules. Unintentional omission may happen. I'll keep it to a minimum, but I'm trying to cover all possible angles here.

This is an important thing concerning this: If an entry is judged down for what amounts to an entrant's negligence when formatting and fluffing an entry, they aren't bound by any form of rule to change their judging because of any disputes, and I am not bound by any form of rule to put forth disputes received of that nature. It hasn't been a problem in the previous one, but I feel like I just need to say something about this before too long.

[Ikeren]

I think the fluff thing adds basically nothing and slows down judging, but *shrug*. I doubt I'll convince anyone to change it, so I'll just keep submitting fluff, now that I know how much people care.

[Jeff the Green]

Gagh. I just finished a build and was about to submit it, but then realized that not only did it not have a focus on Conjuration (healing) spells, it couldn't even cast any. :smallsigh:

Oh well. In retrospect the only real creativity in it was the base casting class; everything else was basically copy/paste from your average RKV and [redacted] builds.

[Kazudo]

I think the fluff thing adds basically nothing and slows down judging, but *shrug*. I doubt I'll convince anyone to change it, so I'll just keep submitting fluff, now that I know how much people care.

Excessive amounts of Fluff, while I judged (the once, mind) and read through all 50 someaught pages of ICOCitP are generally not liked. They do slow down judging. However, if we look at the builds purely mechanically, some decisions that create originality and a specific flair won't make sense without accompanying fluff.

When building a house, yes, you have to have a foundation, walls, and a roof, as well as a handful of rooms that all connect to keep the house from falling over and maintain its utility. However, as any architect knows, an accompanying explanation as to why you put the rooms where you did and what furnishings you may have had in mind when constructing the thing will help any prospective buyers better understand things. Like "Why go for a pedestal bathtub instead of a traditional ground-level?" or "Why are the windows spaced like that?" etc.

Now, there's a difference between "I put this room here because it's the master bedroom and it's closest to the largest bathroom and giant closet system" and "And pink tassles on the drapes to maximize the room's frilliness".

[Ikeren]

Do architects actually talk to house purchasers :smallwink: ?

Jokes about analogy's aside...I think you're describing the need for level snapshots and showcases, not fluff.

I guess I mean...would people find it harder to evaluate the value of builds if they looked more like Tempest Stormwinds recent and excellent Weekly Optimization Showcase? (http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/3396411)

I mean, I don't care that much, and it's not that much a bother to submit fluff...I just think we're slowing things down an extra hint to no benefit. And I really like Tempest Stormwinds weekly optimization showcase.

[Jeff the Green]

I think it can be useful, at least. Some things have definite fluff a priori, and if you're combining them in an interesting way you need to either reconcile the existing fluff or create new fluff that fits the mechanics. I don't think there's a single realistic build you couldn't fluff, but it needs to exist and some builds need it laid out for the judges. For example, say you go from Anima Mage (requires nongood) to Paladin. It's viable, but you do need to explain the character's backstory and outlook to explain why this paladin is using these morally-suspect abilities or refluffed the abilities to be less morally-suspect to make it something you could actually play.

[WhamBamSam]

Judges are free to ignore fluff if they feel like it, but I personally like having it, and think it actually makes it easier to read through large numbers of builds in succession if I can alternate back and forth between story time and mechanical stuff rather than slogging through build after build of just crunch and nothing else.

Some of the fluff is certainly take it or leave it, but there's some really good stuff to be found as well. Some of the old IC entries' fluff was what got me to start lurking in the competition, which in turn was basically how I ended up learning optimization.

[Ikeren]

*shrug*. Fair enough. People like their fluff here.

[Kazudo]

If done right, it's the difference between "pretty fast car" and "really popular pretty fast car".

At any rate, I've gotten in some choice submissions, and we've only got *checks watch* 3 days(ish) left in the entrant stage before we go onto the judging stage!

[Muggins]

How many submissions? :smallamused:

[WhamBamSam]

If done right, it's the difference between "pretty fast car" and "really popular pretty fast car".

At any rate, I've gotten in some choice submissions, and we've only got *checks watch* 3 days(ish) left in the entrant stage before we go onto the judging stage!How many have you gotten so far?

[Kazudo]

Five so far if my count is correct. Got only a few days left too!

[Ikeren]

Funny, with the early submissions I thought there'd be more....now I'm going to make sure I sent mine in

[vhfforever]

Mine's in. I might manage a second one, but I'm not sure. My first kind of ruined all my outside the box thinking on this. :)

[Kazudo]

Hahh...I just noticed that this competition is running exactly in line with IC now because of the timing around the Forum Shutdown.

Hmm. Not sure exactly what/when to do about that, if anything's necessary.

[Somensjev]

i'm not going to be able to submit my build :smallsigh:

once all the entries are posted i might put up the bare bones of my build, it probably wouldn't have done well in the first place

[Kazudo]

Feel free to do just that. Typically that's what we request. After the reveal, feel free to post the stubs. It's entirely possible that you might have come up with something truly enjoyable and unique.

[Kazudo]

Woah! Get off page 4!

Anyway, bumping with content, TODAY'S THE DAY! AIN'T IT GRAND?

Only a matter of hours left until the grand reveal!

[Seerow]

Yeah definitely not getting in on this one with a few hours to go. Love RKV, but it has a lot of baggage and I couldn't think of much in the way of unique twists on it that would work out to have the power necessary.

But I think I will do a judging. I'm pretty free most of next week, so I should have plenty of time for it.

[sakuuya]

Only a matter of hours left until the grand reveal!

Yeep! I'd better get cracking! :smalleek:

If I don't manage to get something together in time, I'm down to judge as well.

[dysprosium]

Yeah I have no chance of getting in a complete submission for this one. :smallsigh:

And I slated myself to judge the current round of Iron Chef. Maybe I will be able to judge this one as well.

[Kazudo]

Some staggering will happen one way or the other and we'll be back to having only-slightly-overlapping games again.

[Deadline]

Yeah definitely not getting in on this one with a few hours to go. Love RKV, but it has a lot of baggage and I couldn't think of much in the way of unique twists on it that would work out to have the power necessary.

See, that's the problem with using powerful elements like RKV. Sure, the disallowed item is a nice twist, but RKV optimization has been done to death, so we are unlikely to see much that is new. I kind of liked the first comp, which used generally awful stuff all around, AND removed the obvious entry.

I guess what I'm asking for is more ... pain. :smalltongue:

[Kazudo]

Oh, I think I'm going to have another "What-If" episode next, then we'll go back to some more wheeling and dealing on some pain.

That being said, if anyone has any suggestions they can feel free to either post or inbox them to me, and they might even show up on the next episode of Junkyard Wars!

[NoACWarrior]

OK forgot to post my judging criteria - I modified it a bit from last time because I felt it was unfair for people who went for more fluff than optimizing and didn't realize it would net them more points.

Originality (5 points):
Race (1) - Original / non-optimized races = 1, Human races = 0.5, expected or optimized races = 0.
Base Class (1) - Using a interesting base class = 1, other base class = 0.5.
Combination of Class abilities (2) - utilizing 3 class abilities to make a single combo (or combo chain) = 2, utilizing 2 class abilities to make a single combo (or combo chain) = 1, not using a combo chain = 0.
Crackers with your Cheese (1) - no cheese = 1, one cheesy entry (a feat or alternate cheesy sources) = 0.5, using more than one cheesy entry = 0.

Power (5 points):
Combat / ability to solve encounters (3) - tier 2 = 3, tier 3 = 2, tier 4 = 1, and tier 5 = 0.
Out of combat / usefulness in RP situations (2) - 0.5 points for each OoC role the build can do.

Build Stability (5 points):
Multiclassing (3) - One base class = 3, two base classes = 2, three or more base classes = 1, taking XP penalties for too much multiclassing = -1 modifier to prior scores.
Prerequisites (2) - If the prerequisites for the PrC are entered in a traditional way (via a full fledged class ability) = 2, If prereqs are gained via conditional class abilities or magic items = 1, if prerequisites are taken away after the fact = 0.

Use of Secret Ingredient (5 points):
Use of the Special Prestige Class (3) - One point for each ability of the PrC used in combat.
Use of the Special Class Feature (2) - ability to heal multiple people at the same time = +0.5, ability to heal at range (not touch) = +0.5, ability to heal more than 40 HP on a single target = +0.5, ability to do other things while healing = +0.5

Let me know if things aren't clear so I can justify why I put certain points certain places, or what I mean by a particular statement.

[Kazudo]

Good stuff, NoAC.

OK. WE HAVE A SLIGHT DILEMMA.

The Reveal isn't for another 2 hours, however, in an hour I have to head home and actually lose access to the internet. So, without any further ado, I'm going to go ahead and reveal the builds now. If anyone submits one in the next two hours, I apologize, but it may not make it into the competition. Sorry to press things.

That being said, Please refrain from posting until after the reveal.

[Kazudo]

Started at the bottom, now we here.




Ravima of Divided Faiths

32 Point buy: Str 15, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 9, Cha 14
Paladin4/Crusader1/Ruby Knight Windicator 2/Divine Crusader 1/Ruby Night Windicator +8/Contemplative2/Warblade1/Swordsage 1


Losing My Religion (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwtdhWltSIg&feature=kp)

Ravima was a totally ordinary and boring paladin of Pelor and Wee Jas, crusading in defence of mages and their holy works and doing typical melee mundane guard duty for the churches of Pelor and Wee Jas while the people actually capable of shaping the world shaped the world.

Great evils fell over the land, and suffice to say, swiftly contrived a situation where several mages were injured and the great magic required to save everyone was impossible. Ravima wanted to heal the mages, but his hands were too weak, and he cursed Wee Jas as he lacked the magic to save them.

Ravima focused her faith on Pelor, and began taking lessons from a priest of Pelor (the horror, the horror!), and for ages continued his duties to the church of Wee Jas, hiding his new found healing prowess, only using it on unconscious mages (why are they always unconscious?). But eventually, a mage realized that Ravima was healing more than a paladin of Wee Jas should be able to, and J`accuse!



Returning to the Fold (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pO3_ZG7wJPc)

Ravima was swiftly put on magical Wee Jasian church trial (presumably by some Cleric 3/Church Inquisitors2/real prestige classes etcetera clerics, because I love free lunches), and Ravima staunchly argued that if healing spells are magic, why can't healing spells be part of Wee Jas's domain? Why should she have to hide her faith in Pelor as well?

Derisively called a Pelorian (the horror, the horror!), Ravima was put on probation, which secretly meant going on all the most dangerous and brutal missions, which actually suited Ravima fine. Ravima's healing abilities proved useful time and time again, but were inevitably endlessly mocked. Sick of it all, Ravima went to the mountains to meditate and spent two levels in solid contemplation, during which Wee Jas decided to forgive Ravima and provide her with access to the magic domain once more.

Ravima, returned to the churches of Pelor and Wee Jas, demonstrating Wee Jas's renewed faith in her (and her renewed faith in Wee Jas), and she took many more supposedly suicidal missions --- her mix of magic and healing proving essential and learning more about the martial arts she'd trained in in the process.



Paladin requires Lawful Good --- Divine Crusader requires an alignment of must match chosen deity. Wee Jas is inconveniently not Lawful Good --- and none of the Paladin variants are Lawful Neutral. Kazudo said "I am going to go with the "fluff is mutable" answer there. You can use the RKV variant that doesn't worship Wee Jas." but I wanted to keep it close as possible --- plus I like the flavour of a Paladin struggling to choose between a passion for magic and a passion for healing.

The heretic of faith feat lets you "you can grossly violate your deities code of conduct, but not your class alignment restriction, without risk of loss of spells or class abilities." and "If you have access to domains, you can exchange any one domain you have with another domain outside those normally availiable to your faith. The new domain must be consistant with the tenents of your heresy (as adjudicated by the DM)."

So you are, in part, a heretic to Wee Jas. You could drop all this for a much less interesting Ruby Knight Vindicator of Pelor and just take Power Attack there, but I wanted to see how close I could get, and this is what I could come up with.





Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1st
Paladin 1
+1
+2
+0
+0
Knowledge Religion +4, Hide +2, Intimidate +1, Concentration +2, Use magic device +2
Quicken Spell, Human Feat: Weapon Focus, Dagger
Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Smite Evil 1/day


2nd
Paladin 2
+2
+3
+0
+0
Knowledge Religion +5, Hide +2.5, Intimidate +1, Concentration +3, Use magic device +2.5
-
Divine Grace, Lay on Hands


3rd
Paladin 3
+3
+3
+1
+1
Knowledge Religion +6, Hide +3, Intimidate +1, Concentration +4, Use magic device +3
Combat Reflexes
Aura of courage, divine health


4th
Paladin 4 Holy Warrior, Complete Champion pg 49
+4
+4
+1
+1
Knowledge Religion +7, Hide +3.5, Intimidate +1, Concentration +5, Use magic device +3.5
Divine Metamagic (Complete Divine Page 80), Quicken Spell
Attribute, Turn Undead


5th
Crusader 1 (Tome of Battle Page 8ish)
+5
+6
+1
+1
Knowledge Religion +8, Hide +4, Intimidate +4, Concentration +5, Use magic device +4
-
Furious counterstrike, steely resolve 5


6th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 1 (Tome of Battle Page 100andsomething)
+6/+1
+6
+1
+3
Knowledge Religion +8, Hide +4, Intimidate +4, Concentration +9, Spellcraft +1, Use magic device +4.5
Combat Expertise
-


7th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 2
+7/+2
+6
+1
+4
Knowledge Religion +8, Hide +4, Intimidate +4, Concentration +10, Spellcraft +5, Use magic device +5
-
Divine Recovery


8th
Divine Crusader 1 (Complete Divine page 33)
+7/+2
+6
+1
+6
Knowledge Religion +10, Hide +4, Intimidate +4, Concentration +11, Spellcraft +5, Use magic device +5.5
Aura, Domain: Magic
Attribute


9th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 3
+8/+3
+7
+2
+6
Knowledge Religion +10, Hide +4, Intimidate +4, Concentration +12, Spellcraft +9, Use magic device +6
Heretic of Faith --- Domain (magic) becomes Domain (healing) (Power of Faerûn, p. 46) (or if your DM allows you to access Ruby Knight Vindicator without worshipping Wee Jas, take Power Attack here)
-


10th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 4
+9/+4
+7
+2
+7
Knowledge Religion +10, Hide +4, Intimidate +4, Concentration +13, Spellcraft +13, Use magic device +6.5
-
-


11th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 5
+10/+5
+7
+2
+7
Knowledge Religion +13, Hide +4, Intimidate +4, Concentration +14, Spellcraft +14, Use magic device +7
-
Armored Stealth


12th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 6
+11/+6/+1
+8
+3
+8
Knowledge Religion +15, Hide +4, Intimidate +4, Concentration +15, Spellcraft +15, Balance +1, Use magic device +7.5
Improved Trip
Attribute


13th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 7
+12/+7/+2
+8
+3
+8
Knowledge Religion +16, Hide +4, Intimidate +4, Concentration +16, Spellcraft +16, Balance +3, Use magic device +8
-
Divine Impetus


14th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 8
+13/+8/+3
+8
+3
+9
Knowledge Religion +17, Hide +4, Intimidate +4, Concentration +17, Spellcraft +17, Balance +5, Use magic device +8.5
-
-


15th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 9
+14/+9/+4
+9
+4
+9
Knowledge Religion +18, Hide +4, Intimidate +4, Concentration +18, Spellcraft +18, Balance +7, Use magic device +9
Extra Granted Manouver (Tome of Battle, page 35ish)
Divine Fury


16th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 10
+15/+10/+5
+9
+4
+10
Knowledge Religion +19, Hide +4, Intimidate +4, Concentration +19, Spellcraft +19, Balance +9, Use magic device +9.5
-
Attribute


17th
Contemplative 1 (Complete Divine page 30)
+15/+10/+5
+9
+4
+12
Knowledge Religion +20, Hide +4, Intimidate +4, Concentration +20, Spellcraft +20, Balance +9, Use magic device +10
-
Bonus Domain (magic), Divine Health


18th
Contemplative 2
+16/+11/+6/+1
+9
+4
+13
Knowledge Religion +21, Hide +4, Intimidate +4, Concentration +21, Spellcraft +21, Balance +9, Use magic device +10.5
Adaptive Style (Tome of Battle also a made up page number)
Slippery Mind


19th
Warblade 1 (Tome of Battle, somewhere between the fields of fighters can't have nice things and the {Scrubbed} fighting magic)
+17/+12/+7/+2
+11
+4
+13
Knowledge Religion +21, Hide +4, Intimidate +4, Concentration +22, Spellcraft +21, Balance +13, Use magic device +11
-
Battle clarity (Reflex saves), weapon aptitude


20th
Swordsage 1 (Tome of Battle, somewhere between munchkins and core druids with natural spell and class features stronger than your entire class)
+17/+12/+7/+2
+11
+6
+15
Knowledge Religion +21, Hide +4, Intimidate +4, Concentration +23, Spellcraft +21, Balance +19, Use magic device +11.5
-
Quick to act +1, discipline focus (weapon focus) , Attribute





You cast from the healing domain. Cure Light Wounds, Cure Moderate Wounds, Cure Serious Wounds, Cure Even More Serious Wounds, Cure Light Wounds Mass, Heal ALL THE WOUNDS, Regenerate, Cure Even More Serious Wounds, mass, and HEAL ALL ALL THE WOUNDS.

You might also get to cast from the magic domain once you regain it, but Divine Crusader is a bit ambiguous on that point, and besides, one of the secret ingredients is healing spells, so just cast those.
Spells per Day/Spells Known
Spells per Day/Spells Known


Level
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th


1st
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


2nd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


3rd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


4th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


5th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


6th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


7th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


8th
-
0
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


9th
-
1
0
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


10th
-
2
1
0
-
-
-
-
-
-


11th
-
2
2
1
0
-
-
-
-
-


12th
-
2
2
1
0
-
-
-
-
-


13th
-
3
2
2
1
0
-
-
-
-


14th
-
3
3
2
2
1
0
-
-
-


15th
-
3
3
3
2
2
1
0
-
-


16th
-
3
3
3
3
2
2
1
0
-


17th
-
3
3
3
3
3
2
2
1
0


18th
-
3
3
3
3
3
3
2
2
1


19th
-
3
3
3
3
3
3
2
2
1


20th
-
3
3
3
3
3
3
2
2
1





Char Level 5, Crusader 1, IL3: Mountain Hammer, Shield Block, Douse the Flames, Charging Minotaur, Vanguard Strike, and Iron Guard's Glare
Char level 6, Ruby Knight 1, IL 4: Child of Shadows, Extra Granted Manoeuvre (5/3)
Char level 7, Ruby Knight 2, IL 5: White Raven Tactics
Char level 10, Ruby Knight 4, IL 7.5: Bone Splitting Strike
Char level 11, Ruby Knight 5, IL 8.5: +1 readied Manoeuvre (6/4)
Char level 12, Ruby Knight 6, IL 9.5: Shadow Stride and Thicket of Blades
Char level 14, Ruby Knight 8, IL 11.5: Order Forged From Chaos
Char level 15, Ruby Knight 9, IL 12.5: +1 readied Manoeuvre (7/5)
Char level 16, Ruby Knight 10, IL 13.5: Shadow Blink
Default List for crusader: Shadow Blink, Shadow Stride, Order Forged from Chaos, Bone Splitting Strike, White Raven Tactics, Shield Block, and one of your choice (base crusader options, meh)
Char Level 19, Warblade 1, IL 15: 3/3/1: --- Diamond Defence, Stance of Clarity, Action Before Thought, Diamond Nightmare Blade
Char level 20, Swordsage 1, IL 15.5: 6/4/1: Enervating Shadow Strike, Inferno Blade, Rapid Counter, Moment of Alacrity, Quicksilver Motion, One With Shadow, and Surefoot Stance.

I'll be 100% honest: There are a lot of options here, and I'm not sold on every last one of them. Tome of Battle has a lot of good choices, and picking between them can be tough. I'm happy to take suggestions if anyone notes and glaring omissions on manoeuvre selection while judging.



With combat reflexes and the rest of your feats being terrible or irrelevant, you're wielding a guisarm and armor spikes, and just rocking the 10 foot threat range with combat reflexes for all it's worth. You've got your first set of crusader manoeuvres, of which, there are some solid choices --- though shield block doesn't come online until you can get an animated shield (unless your DM lets you use it with a buckler you're not getting the AC bonus from).



You still have basically full BAB, but now you also have healing magic (with free quickens), and your manoeuvre selection is improving too: Bone Splitting Strike and White Raven tactics are both excellent. Greatreach bracers let you increase your threat range massively a few times a day, and even a simple enlarge person puts you up to 15 foot threat radius.

You're using heretic of faith to swap the magic domain for the healing domain --- but you're not that much of a heretic --- you're allowed to step 2 alignment points away, but Wee Jas is Lawful Neutral and you're Lawful Good and staying that way (because of the Paladin levels), so that part of the feat is unnecessary. Plus I love the theme of a paladin deciding the god of magic needs to include magical healing in his domain --- but that's because I'm arrogant as all hell.



At this point, basically everything is online. You have improved trip (finally), you have almost as much healing magic as your party cleric (and thus can free up their slots for being more awesome), your BAB is still 14 out of 15, and you've got a huge selection of very useful manoeuvres --- including White Raven Tactics, Thicket of Blades stance, Order Forged from Chaos for free move actions for allies, and the shadow blinks. With a reasonable single nightstick + single reliquary holy symbol + 4 charisma item you'll have 13 turns --- 2 more from somewhere (more charisma) gets you 3 free quickens a day for your high level heals --- though you can, of course, pay spell slots to quicken your lower ones, too. You can throw out 2 heals a round for a couple rounds, and you have Ruby Knight Vindicator's odd option to trade a standard action for a swift action: there will be rounds where you want to switch stances and use a boost, or use two boosts, or swift action items --- and now you can.

You also have an overlooked +4 attack+1d10 damage on a strike option, and the option to use turns to recover manoeuvres, both of which are generally quite solid.



You have full 9th level healing access, as good as a cleric but with fewer slots --- but you've got nothing else to do and the cleric wants to gate in solars and implode them for the fun of it. Having 3 quickened mass heals per day is your parties great get out of jail free card.

The contemplative here is mostly thematic; returning to the fold and regaining the magic domain. But really it's just to get the last 2 divine crusader caster levels for mass heal; you could put whatever you want here (Divine orcale: + that complete scoundrel location for skill focus: religion gets you evasion), church inquisitioner has easy pre-requisites and gives the inquisition domain --- you really just need 2 more caster levels on divine crusader.

You get slippery mind, which is awesome, but more importantly, huge defensive and offensive boosts from the Warblade and Swordsage dips --- one of the best parts of Ruby Knight Vindicator and other ToB prestige classes is they boost your characters base IL, even for classes you don't have levels in. Diamond Defense provides +15 to all saves and Action before thought replaces your terrible reflex save with your great concentration skill. And Diamond Nightmare Blade's wonderful quadruple damage (qualified for by taking 3 no requirement diamond mind manoeuvres at the same level --- yep, that's legal) is always a winner.

Similar tricks come with that final swordsage level, giving you huge versatility and power: Enervation, which you qualify for thanks to Ruby Knight Windicator opening up the shadow jaunt lines (and child of shadows stance), Rapid Counter gets you an extra AoO, moment of alacrity is the other “Hey, die action economy” manoeuvre (you have white Raven Tactics) (and hell Quicksilver motion for upgrading swifts to moves), one with Shadow for Incorporeality. Lots of solid stuff here.



A solid guisarm with good heavy-ish (mithril) or medium armor and armor spikes (also upgraded). Appropriate melee gear across the board, with stat boosters in Str/Dex/Con and Cha --- int and wis are your dumps. Things that increase reach, and standard necessary melee utility.

This build doesn't require anything special in comparison to a standard fighter melee wise to work, though it has access to full cross class UMD ranks




Delaying RKV entry to put divine crusader first would eliminate the need to use contemplative (or something else) to finish divine crusader casting. Something like Paladin 4/Crusader 3/Divine Crusader 2/RKV 10/X1 would work --- if the last level is Crusader 4, it gets you a stance, too.

Finishing off Crusader 4 in this build (Paladin4/Crusader1/RKV2/Divine Crusader1/RKV+8/Crusader+4) would let you pick up Strike of Righteous Vitality; but while it mimics heal, it's not a Conjuration (Healing) spell --- and you'd lose access to your 9th level Divine Crusader mass heal. Plus the late level dips of swordsage and warblade seriously boost the power and shore up (in particular) the weak reflex save with Diamond Defense (+15 to all saves? Hell yeah) and Action Before Thought (your base reflex save is +6. Your concentration skill is +23? Uh, yes).
Fractional BAB would only pick you up 1 more point of BAB, so whatevers. You don't ever hit multiclassing experience penalties (negating paladin as favoured class, all other non-prestige levels are within 1 level of each other).

One flaw for Power Attack would be nice, especially with your high level damage manoeuvres, but this build is more defensively focused: It can be a primary tank and primary healer --- let someone else do most of the damage --- though with Diamond Nightmare Blade, Enervation Strike, and Bonesplitter, you're not a pathetic slouch.

If you have a DM that lets you take RKV without worshipping Wee Jas, worship Pelor and pick up the Healing Domain the normal way. Use Contemplative 2 to gain the Sun domain, and finish with Radiant Servant of Pelor 2 for free empowered healing, if you feel like your heals are insufficient --- you can pay for the extra turning feat. Or finish the build as normal, and actually take power attack.




Initiative order:

You: 40 pts (Moment of Alacrity)
Monster: 22 pts
Ally: 21 pts
You: 20 pts
Ally: 19 pts (White Raven tactics)

Normally, the easy option here is to white raven tactics your ally to give them an extra round. So you do.
If you have moment of alacrity, Divine impetus can also be used to give you a bonus move action here in the same turn. Normally you'd just hang on to it next round, but if positioning really matters/you really need to land a full attack on the enemy, Moment of Alacrity + Divine Impetus provides an extra move action:

You use a standard action to activate divine impetus, which gives you a swift action. You now have your move action to do what you want, to set up your moment of alacrity inspired lead. If you follow the Customer Service ruling that you can White Raven Tactics yourself, it gets insane:

You: 39 pts (Moment of Alacrity)
Monster: 22 pts
You: 20 pts
You: 19 pts (White Raven tactics)

Your round 1: Standard + Move or full, swift action WRT yourself.
Your round 2: Standard + move or full, swift action Moment of Alacrity yourself.
Your round 3: Standard + move or full: standard give an extra swift, swift 1 to divine recovery White Raven tactics, swift to to white Raven tactics yourself, and use the move however you want. After hitting yourself with moment of Alacrity to push your initiative way above the monsters, you can use Divine Impetus + Divine Recovery for a number of move actions equal to your turning attempts, or the amount by which you're higher than the monsters initiative (since each WRT reduces your initiative by one.) On rounds where you recover White Raven tactics via roll, you don't even have to use divine recovery/divine impetus. It's the always ready "Dumb" crusader, without the master of nine levels.

Rocking out 10-15 extra move actions, with a mix of full rounds in there? Not bad at all.

[Kazudo]

I was on the moon! With Steve!



Steven the Grim, Knight of the Ruby Raven
LG Human, worships Wee Jas
Healer1/Swordsage2/Crusader3/Knight of the Raven4/Ruby Knight Vindicator10

Starting Stats:
Str 13
Dex 12
Con 12
Int 12
Wis 16
Cha 13

LevelClassBase Attack BonusFort SaveRef SaveWill SaveSkillsFeatsClass Features


1stHealer1+0+2+0+2 Hide(2), Intimidate(2), Heal(4), Know(Religion)(4), Concentration(4), Diplomacy(4), Spellcraft(4) Augment Healing, Able LearnerHealing Hands (+Cha to healing spells)


2ndSwordsage1+0+2+2+4 Heal(5), Know(Religion)(5), Concentration(5), Diplomacy(5), Spellcraft(5), Tumble(x3,3)
Weapon Focus (Stone Dragon)Quick to Act +1


3rdSwordsage2+1+2+3+5 Hide(3), Intimidate(3), Heal(6), Know(Religion)(6), Diplomacy(6), Concentration(6), Tumble(x2,5) Adaptive Style+Wis to AC


4thCrusader1+2+4+3+5 Hide(4), Intimidate(4), Heal(7), Know(Religion)(7), Diplomacy(7), Concentration(7) -Furious Counterstrike, Steely Resolve5, +1 Cha (lvl4)


5thCrusader2+3+5+3+5 Heal(8), Know(Religion)(8), Diplomacy(8), Concentration(8), Tumble(x2,7) -Indomitable Soul (+Cha to Will)


6thCrusader3+4+5+4+6 Heal(9), Know(Religion)(9), Diplomacy(9), Concentration(9), Tumble(x2,9) Extra Granted ManeuverZealous Surge (reroll save 1/day)


7thKnight of the Raven1+5+7+4+8 Heal(10), Know(Religion)(10), Diplomacy(10), Concentration(10) -Raven Harrier (harry), Speak with Ravens


8thKoR2+6+8+4+9 Heal(11), Concentration(11), Tumble(10) Diplomacy(11) -Smite Undead 1/day, +1 divine casting (as Healer2), +1 Str (lvl 8)


9thKoR3+7+8+5+9 Heal(12), Concentration(12), Tumble(11), Diplomacy(12) Extra TurningTurn Undead, Sun Domain, Raven Harrier (baffle), +1 divine casting (as Healer3)


10thKoR4+8+9+5+10 Heal(13), Concentration(13), Tumble(12), Diplomacy(13) -Light Focus, Smite Undead 2/day, +1 divine casting (as Healer4)


11thRuby Knight Vindicator1+9+9+5+12 Heal(14), Concentration(14), Tumble(x2,13), Balance(x2,2) --


12thRKV2+10+9+5+13 Heal(15), Concentration(15), Tumble(x2,15), Balance(x2,4) Touch of HealingDivine Recovery, +1 divine casting (as Healer5), +1 Wis (lvl 12)


13thRKV3+11+10+6+13 Heal(16), Concentration(16), Diplomacy(x3,16), Balance(5) -+1 divine casting (as Healer6)


14thRKV4+12+10+6+14 Heal(17), Concentration(17), Diplomacy(17), Sense Motive(x3,3) -+1 divine casting (as Healer7)


15thRKV5+13+10+6+14 Heal(18), Concentration(18), Diplomacy(18), Sense Motive (x3,6) Extra TurningArmored Stealth, +1 divine casting (as Healer8)


16thRKV6+14+11+7+15 Heal(19), Concentration(19), Diplomacy(19), Sense Motive(x3,9) -+1 Wis (lvl 16)


17thRKV7+15+11+7+15 Heal(20), Concentration(20), Diplomacy(20), Sense Motive(x3,12) -Divine Impetus, +1 divine casting (as Healer9)


18thRKV8+16+11+7+16 Heal(21), Concentration(21), Diplomacy(21), Sense Motive (x3,15) Practiced Spellcaster+1 divine casting (as Healer10)


19thRKV9+17+12+8+16 Heal(22), Concentration(22), Diplomacy(22), Sense Motive (x3,18) -Divine Fury, +1 divine casting (as Healer11)


20thRKV10+18+12+8+17 Heal(23), Concentration(23), Diplomacy(23), Sense Motive(x3,21) -+1 divine casting (as Healer12), +1 Wis (lvl20)



Initiator progression
2 Swordsage1 (4 readied), Blistering Flourish (DW), Moment of Perfect Mind (DM), Sapphire Nightmare Blade (DM), Counter Charge (SS), Sudden Leap (TC), Child of Shadow (SH, Stance)
3 Swordsage2 Clinging Shadow Strike (SH), Flame’s Blesing (DW, stance)
4 Crusader1 5(3) readied, Crusader’s Strike (DS), Vanguard Strike (DS), Charging Minotaur(SD), Leading the Attack (WR), Douse the Flames (WR), Martial Spirit (DS, stance)
5 Crusader2 Iron Guard’s Glare (DS, stance)
6 Crusader3 Tactical Strike (WR)
11 RKV1 Thicket of Blades (DS, stance)
12 RKV2 White Raven Tactics (WR)
13 RKV3 -
14 RKV4 White Raven Strike (WR)
15 RKV5 6(3) readied
16 RKV6 Rallying Strike (DS) Aura of Triumph (DS, Stance)
17 RKV7 -
18 RKV8 Shadow Blink (SH)
19 RKV9 7(3) readied
20 RKV10 White Raven Hammer (WR)


General equipment: Greatsword, Studded Leather armor, items boosting Wisdom, Charisma, and Strength
*Optional: If available, the Sunsword, a legacy weapon from Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, is (shockingly) decent. The Personal Costs are only HP loss (which you can handle) and a minor penalty to skill checks. A discounted +5 Keen Silvered Bastard Sword that counts as a short sword, with anti-undead capabilities? Sounds good to me. If this is allowed, pick Diamond Mind for your Weapon Focus instead.

The challenge was to combine conjuration (healing) spells with Ruby Knight Vindicator, without using the Cleric class. While Favored Soul might have been a more natural fit for the martial nature of the PrC (and offering a clear Tier-2 spell list), the Healer class offered a challenge I just couldn’t resist. Besides, you can’t get much more chock-full of Conjuration (Healing) spells than that.

So, how to put it all together into a class that’s thematically interesting, decently powerful, and something I’d actually allow at my own table? I went to "Expedition to Castle Ravenloft" for the answer: the “Knight of the Raven” prestige class. A worshiper of Wee Jas would certainly fit in as a knight dedicated to destroying undead. Access to the Sun Domain spells gives Healer casting a bit more offensive punch that would have been completely absent otherwise. When it came to Crusader (and RKV), I tried to select the maneuvers a bit heavily on the White Raven side, to keep with the Raven theme.

By level 20, the Knight of the Ruby Raven has a BAB of 18, has an Initiator level of Crusader16, and casts spells as a Healer12. The sweet spot is probably level 15. RKV has turned on, most of the maneuvers are in place, you have your levels of Knight of the Raven, and your Healing spells are starting to take off.

Unfortunately, due to entry requirements, healing (from spells) is really light in the lower levels. He’ll still be doing plenty of hit point restoration from Crusader maneuvers. While Augment Healing and Healing Hands (which stack) get a lot of punch out of the spells available, it’s not until around level 10 or so that they really take off. Touch of Healing (a reserve feat) will take everybody up to (at minimum) half hitpoints outside of combat, so you get even more mileage out of your actual spells.

Even at lower levels, there’s plenty for the character to do. A good base attack bonus, high hitpoints, and offensive capacity from Maneuvers (thanks to Crusader) means he can hold his own in melee combat even with a low-ish strength. Good Tumble skills (combined with light armor) gives him good mobility on the battlefield. Maxing out Diplomacy means he can serve as the party face in friendly social situations. (Sadly, he’s no Bluffer).

The build also posed a defensive problem, thanks to the Healer: while the character would be a backup frontline melee fighter, it’s not allowed to have any metal armor. Enter: two levels of Swordsage (regular, not unarmed), for +Wis to AC. This synergizes with his Healer casting. (I could have used just one level of Monk as well, but Swordsage just gave a bit more, both in terms of skill points and maneuvers).

I’ve selected Extra Turning twice. Depending on how comfortable you are with the cheese that is Divine Impetus, this can be used either for actual Turn Attempts (you are playing a character who is very interested in fighting undead, and Sun Domain gives 1/day Greater Turning) or to fuel Swift Actions. Several of the maneuvers are “dual-use,” activating on a swift action; good on their own, cheesy combined with multiple uses of Divine Impetus in a round. So is the Knight of the Raven’s “Harry” ability; swift actions to get a chance at decreasing your opponent’s AC by 2. These abilities are only as cheesy as you want them to be. One/round? Useful, cool but reasonable. Using Divine Impetus and Divine Recovery to “White Raven Tactics” everybody in your party? Bearded stilton.

[Kazudo]

Mercy mercy, that's a spicy meatball. [Haha...ha...hah.]




Raphaella d'Jorasco, Mercy Knight
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu39/JeffreyTheGreen/f27b31ef-08ab-4601-85d8-d0290d40fb11_zps3e56caf4.png
Water Halfling Spirit Shaman 4/Crusader 1/Knight of the Raven 3/Ruby Knight Vindicator 9/Prestige Paladin 2



Ability Scores
Ability Point Buy Race Level Total
Strength 17 -2 +5 20
Dexterity 8 +2 +0 10
Constitution 14 +2 +0 16
Intelligence 10 +0 +0 10
Wisdom 16 +0 +0 16
Charisma 9 +0 +0 9



Level history
LevelClassBase Attack BonusFort SaveRef SaveWill SaveSkillsFeatsClass Features


1stSpirit Shaman 1+0+2+0+2Hide 2, Intimidate 2, Knowledge (Religion) 1, Ride 2, UMD 2Least Dragonmark (lesser restoration 1/day), Gatekeeper Initiate Power Attack, Wild CohortSpirit guide, wild empathy


2ndSpirit Shaman 2+1+3+0+3Hide 2½, Intimidate 2½, Knowledge (Religion) 1, Ride 3, UMD 2½-Chastise spirits


3rdSpirit Shaman 3+2+3+1+3Hide 3, Intimidate 3, Knowledge (Religion) 1½, Ride 4, UMD 3Mounted CombatDetect spirits


4thSpirit Shaman 4+3+4+1+4Hide 3½, Intimidate 3, Knowledge (Religion) 2, Ride 5, UMD 3½-Blessing of the spirits


5thCrusader 1+4+6+1+4Hide 4, Intimidate 4, Knowledge (Religion) 4, Ride 5, UMD 4-Furious counterstrike, steely resolve 5


6thKnight of the Raven 1+5+8+1+6Hide 4, Intimidate 4, Knowledge (Religion) 6, Ride 5, UMD 4Lesser Dragonmark (restoration 1/day)Raven harrier (harry), speak with ravens


7thKnight of the Raven 2+6+9+1+7Hide 4, Intimidate 4, Knowledge (Religion) 7, Ride 5, UMD 4½-Smite undead 1/day


8thKnight of the Raven 3+7+9+2+7Hide 4, Intimidate 4, Knowledge (Religion) 8, Ride 5, UMD 5-Turn undead, Sun domain, raven harrier (baffle)


9thRuby Knight Vindicator 1+8+9+2+9Hide 4, Intimidate 4, Knowledge (Religion) 8, Ride 7, UMD 6Greater Dragonmark (heal 1/day)-


10thRuby Knight Vindicator 2+9+9+2+10Hide 4, Intimidate 4, Knowledge (nobility and royalty) ½, Knowledge (Religion) 8, Ride 9, UMD 6½-Divine recovery


11thRuby Knight Vindicator 3+10+10+3+10Hide 4, Intimidate 4, Knowledge (nobility and royalty) 1, Knowledge (Religion) 8, Ride 11, UMD 7--


12thRuby Knight Vindicator 4+11+10+3+11Hide 4, Intimidate 4, Knowledge (nobility and royalty) 1½, Knowledge (Religion) 8, Ride 13, UMD 7½Dragonmark Visionary (revivify 1/day)-


13thRuby Knight Vindicator 5+12+10+3+11Hide 4, Intimidate 4, Knowledge (nobility and royalty) 2, Knowledge (Religion) 8, Ride 15, UMD 8-Armored stealth


14thPrestige Paladin 1+13+12+3+11Hide 4, Intimidate 4, Knowledge (nobility and royalty) 2, Knowledge (Religion) 8, Ride 16, UMD 8½--


15thRuby Knight Vindicator 6+14+13+4+12Concentration 1, Hide 4, Intimidate 4, Knowledge (nobility and royalty) 2, Knowledge (Religion) 8, Ride 18, UMD 9Battle BlessingDetect evil, smite evil 1/day, turn undead


16thRuby Knight Vindicator 7+15+13+4+12Concentration 3, Hide 4, Intimidate 4, Knowledge (nobility and royalty) 2, Knowledge (Religion) 8, Ride 19, UMD 9½-Divine Impetus


17thPrestige Paladin 2+15+14+4+12Concentration 3, Hide 4, Intimidate 4, Knowledge (nobility and royalty) 2, Knowledge (Religion) 8, Ride 20, UMD 10-Divine grace, lay on hands, special mount


18thRuby Knight Vindicator 8+16+14+4+13Concentration 5, Hide 4, Intimidate 4, Knowledge (nobility and royalty) 2, Knowledge (Religion) 8, Ride 21, UMD 10½SerenityAura of courage, divine health


19thRuby Knight Vindicator 9+17+15+5+13Concentration 7, Hide 4, Intimidate 4, Knowledge (nobility and royalty) 2, Knowledge (Religion) 8, Ride 22, UMD 11--


20thRuby Knight Vindicator 10+18+15+5+14Concentration 10, Hide 4, Intimidate 4, Knowledge (nobility and royalty) 2, Knowledge (Religion) 8, Ride 23, UMD 11-Divine Fury



HD: 16d8+3d10 (173 HP)

Flaws: Inattentive, Shaky
Traits: Slow, Aggressive

Spells Retrieved
Level0123456789
131--------
232--------
3321-------
4331-------
-5331-------
-6331-------
73311------
83321------
-93321------
1033211-----
1133221-----
12333211----
13333221----
-14333221----
153333211---
163333221---
-173333221---
1833333211--
1833333221--
18333333211-

Spells per Day
Level0123456789
132--------
243--------
3542-------
4542-------
5542-------
6653-------
76642------
86653------
96653------
1066642-----
1166653-----
12666642----
13666653----
14666653----
156666642---
166666653---
176666653---
1866666642--
1966666653--
20666666642-

Maneuvers/Stances Known
Level IL Devoted Spirit Shadow Hand Stone Dragon White Raven
1 ½ - - - -
2 1 - - - -
3 1½ - - - -
4 2 - - - -
5 3 Crusader's Strike, Iron Guard's Glare, Vanguard Strike - Mountain Hammer Douse tde Flames, Leading the Attack
6 3½ Crusader's Strike, Iron Guard's Glare, Vanguard Strike - Mountain Hammer Douse the Flames, Leading the Attack
7 4 Crusader's Strike, Iron Guard's Glare, Vanguard Strike - Mountain Hammer Douse the Flames, Leading the Attack
8 4½ Crusader's Strike, Iron Guard's Glare, Vanguard Strike - Mountain Hammer Douse the Flames, Leading the Attack
9 5½ Crusader's Strike, Iron Guard's Glare, Vanguard Strike Island of Blades Mountain Hammer Douse the Flames, Leading the Attack
10 6½ Crusader's Strike, Iron Guard's Glare, Vanguard Strike Island of Blades Mountain Hammer Douse the Flames, Leading the Attack, White Raven Tactics
11 7½ Crusader's Strike, Iron Guard's Glare, Vanguard Strike Island of Blades Mountain Hammer Douse the Flames, Leading the Attack, White Raven Tactics
12 8½ Crusader's Strike, Iron Guard's Glare, Vanguard Strike Hand of Death, Island of Blades Mountain Hammer Douse the Flames, Leading the Attack, White Raven Tactics
13 9½ Crusader's Strike, Iron Guard's Glare, Vanguard Strike Hand of Death, Island of Blades Mountain Hammer Douse the Flames, Leading the Attack, White Raven Tactics
14 10 Crusader's Strike, Iron Guard's Glare, Vanguard Strike Bloodletting Strike, Hand of Death, Island of Blades Mountain Hammer Douse the Flames, Leading the Attack, White Raven Tactics
15 11 Aura of Perfect Order, Crusader's Strike, Iron Guard's Glare, Vanguard Strike Bloodletting Strike, Hand of Death, Island of Blades Mountain Hammer Douse the Flames, Leading the Attack, White Raven Tactics
16 12 Aura of Perfect Order, Crusader's Strike, Iron Guard's Glare, Vanguard Strike Bloodletting Strike, Hand of Death, Island of Blades Mountain Hammer Douse the Flames, Leading the Attack, White Raven Tactics
17 12½ Aura of Perfect Order, Crusader's Strike, Iron Guard's Glare, Vanguard Strike Bloodletting Strike, Hand of Death, Island of Blades Mountain Hammer Douse the Flames, Leading the Attack, White Raven Tactics
18 13½ Aura of Perfect Order, Crusader's Strike, Iron Guard's Glare, Rallying Strike, Vanguard Strike Bloodletting Strike, Hand of Death, Island of Blades Mountain Hammer Douse the Flames, Leading the Attack, White Raven Tactics
19 14½ Aura of Perfect Order, Crusader's Strike, Iron Guard's Glare, Rallying Strike, Vanguard Strike Bloodletting Strike, Hand of Death, Island of Blades Mountain Hammer Douse the Flames, Leading the Attack, White Raven Tactics
20 15½ Aura of Perfect Order, Crusader's Strike, Iron Guard's Glare, Rallying Strike, Vanguard Strike Bloodletting Strike, Hand of Death, Island of Blades Mountain Hammer Douse the Flames, Leading the Attack, White Raven Hammer, White Raven Tactics


Raphaela's Career


The spirits Called her to service only years before, when she was bairly into puberty. They had drawn her in and changed her, filled her with the righteousness of the Spirit, and awakened the Mark of Healing within her. Upon her 25th nameday her guide informed her that she was ready and she left her studies to follow her path. Upon her hound she rode, calming vengeful spirits and healing the afflicted on the way


At level one, Raphaela plays as any other low-Charisma Spirit Shaman. She buffs herself with shillelagh or aspect of the wolf and goes to town with her riding dog. She also has the earliest access to lesser restoration possible through her Least Dragonmark.

A note regarding Wild Cohort: While riding dog is superior mechanically, a fastieth would be reams more appropriate to the character. Unfortunately it is not RAW available as a wild cohort until level 4.



As Raphaela's connection to the spirit-world rose, so did her faith in the power of the Sovereign Host. Though disdaining organized religion, she championed the Host's cause and in return was granted inspiration in her combat.


With her first level of Crusader, Raphaela becomes a much more capable mounted combatant. In addition to being able to boost her mount, the combination of Mounted Combat and iron guard's glare keeps her mount from being hit and her strikes give it even more power. She's also grown a bit more versatile with her buffs, and can make use of summon nature's ally n for a flanking partner if she so desires. She can also finally wear heavy armor to make up for her mediocre dexterity.



As her spiritual power grew, Raphaela was granted new gifts from the spirit world. One of the fiercest dinosaurs from the Talenta Plains bonded with her, and a small relative of a glidewing touched by the power of Syrania too judged her worthy of its companionship.


Now Raphaela's power is starting to grow more cohesive. She now has a fleshraker wild cohort and a celestial rhamphorhynchus (raven) as her harrier. While the DCs of the rhamphorhynchus's abilities are based on Raphaela's Charisma and so low (Will DC 10), natural 1s happen and there's little cost to it. it can also scout well, as it's able to talk. In addition, you get white raven tactics to give your fleshraker an extra full attack. If you can get a fleshraker with Martial Stance (assassin's stance)—probably through psychic reformation, though you might be able to just retrain him—you can also flank enemies while riding him.

She also have access to a cool trick. While she naturally has the Sun Domain,she can swap it out by using substitute domain. Since Raphaela worships the Sovereign Host, she has a massive array of domains to choose from:

Air
Animal
Artifice
Charm
Chaos
Commerce
Community
Earth
Feast
Fire
Good
Healing
Knowledge
Law
Life
Luck
Magic
Protection
Plant
Strength
Travel
Sun
War
Weather

Some of these (Luck, Magic, and War; plus some of the others if the DM can be convinced to use Spirit Shaman, Knight of the Raven, or RKV level as your effective cleric level) are useful for their power, while others will just give you some new spell options.

Raphaela is also now an impressive healer. With a 1/day heal SLA (two levels before a cleric and four below a druid) she can make in-combat healing worth it and between encounters she can shadowbox with her fleshraker, using Crusader's Strike to heal.



Soon all of Khorvaire knew of the prowess and virtue of this halfling knight. The powers of Good themselves conspired with the spirits to grant Raphaela yet more powers, and she grew adept at using these with extraordinary quickness. So too did her dragonmark bloom, giving her the ability to heal even those whose spirits had left their body.


Raphaela now adds paladin spells to her list and casts all of them as swift actions. In addition to a number of exceptional buffs, she gets revenance, which allows her to use her dragonmark revivify SLA a full minute after a companion dies. Also, since protection from evil is on the paladin list she doesn't need Gatekeeper Initiate to qualify for Prestige Paladin any more and retrains it to Power Attack.

She's also gained impressive battle prowess. Her Shadow Hand maneuvers give her the abillity to inflict status conditions on her enemies on her enemies (and with her high Wisdom the DCs will actually be respectable), and Aura of Perfect Order lets her take 11 on anything.



Rising to the status of legend, Raphaela's faith was rewarded yet more, with the ability to near break time and astounding martial prowess.


Finally reaching the 7th level of Ruby Knight Vindicator and, through Serenity, using her Wisdom modifier to determine Turn Undead uses, Raphaela can turn out an exceptional number of buffs for herself and her allies at the beginning of battle. She also gains her Wisdom modifier to saves, 8th-level spells, and Rallying Strike and White Raven Hammer to further cement her role as a tough combatant.

Raphaela plays well from 1st to 20th. While in the early levels with low Dexterity and only light armor she is fragile, she can make up for it with various buffs. Normally it's difficult for anyone but Clerics to enter Prestige Paladin since they need the ability to cast a divine protection from evil and Turn Undead. Knight of the Raven takes care of Turn Undead and Gatekeeper Initiate adds protection from evil to her list. Once she enters Prestige Paladin (which also adds protection from evil to her list) she can retrain or DCFS Gatekeeper Initiate to Power Attack. An alternative is to use the ability to swap out the Sun domain to get the Good domain and thereby protection from evil[/]. This would allow Power Attack to be taken at level 1, but whether a temporary ability to cast protection from evil may not work and so is not shown above.

In general, Raphaela is most competent when she has at least one other melee companion. Because she can retrieve relatively few spells, it is best if she be able to use each one frequently. Also, a number of her stances and strikes are significantly enhanced by having an ally nearby.

The two animals Raphael gains as allies are significant resources. Ideally one would like to control what feats they have, either through normal progression, psychic reformation or DCFS. Her ramphorynchus is likely not going to be a significant combatant, but with Intelligence of 3 it should be able to take most feats. Shape Soulmeld is a definite possibility. Her mount (most likely a fleshraker, though in uncramped areas a bloodstriker might be better) would particularly benefit from Martial Study and Martial Stance to get Sneak Attack, though merely "normal" feats like Power Attack would greatly improve its abilities.

Sources
[i]Complete Champion: Battle Blessing, substitute domain.
Complete Divine: Spirit Shaman.
Dragon Compendium: Serenity.
Dragonmarked: Dragonmark Visionary.
Eberron Campaign Setting: Gatekeeper Initiate, Least Dragonmark, Lesser Dragonmark, Greather Dragonmark.
Expedition to Castle Ravenloft: Knight of the Raven.
Spell Compendium: revivify, revenance.
Tome of Battle: Crusader, Ruby Knight Vindicator, Maneuvers.
Unearthed Arcana: Flaws, Traits, Prestige Paladin, Water Halfling.

[Kazudo]

Though I'm sure, as is the way of these things, that there are those who call him....Tim.



Healer 4, Crusader 1, Combat Medic 5, Knight of the Raven 3, Ruby Knight 7

Str 9, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 15

Post Level Adjustments
Str 10, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 19, Cha 16

Timothy the Savior


Timothy the Savior
LevelClassBase Attack BonusFort SaveRef SaveWill SaveSkillsFeatsClass Features


1stHealer 1+0+2+0+2Concentration 4, Diplomacy 4, Heal 4, Hide 2 Ranks, Intimidate 2 Ranks, Knowledge (Religion) 4, Spellcraft 4Dodge, Able LearnerHealing Hands


2ndHealer 2+1+3+0+3Concentration +1, Heal +1, Knowledge: Religion +1, Profession: Healer +3Skill Focus: HealNew Feats


3rdHealer 3+1+3+1+3Concentration +1, Heal +1, Hide +1, Intimidate +1, Knowledge: Religion +1, Profession: Healer +1Conbat CastingCleanse Paralysis


4thHealer 4+2+4+1+4Concentration +1, Diplomacy +3, Heal +1, Knowledge: Religion +1NoneCleanse Disease


5thCrusader 1+3+6+1+4Concentration +1, Diplomacy +1, Heal +1, Hide +1, Intimidate +1, Knowledge: Religion +1NoneFurious Counterstrike, Steely Resolve 5


6thCombat Medic 1+3+6+3+4OpenExtra Granted ManeuverHealing Kicker (Sanctuary)


7thCombat Medic 2+4+6+4+4OpenNew FeatsDefensive Casting, Field Healer


8thCombat Medic 3+4+7+4+5OpenMobilityHealing Kicker (Reflex Saves)


9thCombat Medic 4+5+7+5+5OpenQuicken SpellEvasion


10thCombat Medic 5+5+7+5+5OpenNoneHealing Kicker (Aid)


11thKnight of the Raven 1+6+9+5+7OpenNoneRaven Harrier (Harry), Speak With Ravens


12thKnight of the Raven 2+7+10+5+8OpenDivine Metamagic: QuickenSmite Undead 1/day


13thKnight of the Raven 3+8+10+6+8OpenNoneTurn Undead, Sun Domain, Raven Harrier (baffle)


14thRuby Knight Vindicator 1+9+10+6+10OpenNoneNone


15thRuby Knight Vindicator 2+10+10+6+11OpenExtra TurningDivine Recovery


16thRuby Knight Vindicator 3+11+11+7+11OpenNoneNone


17thRuby Knight Vindicator 4+12+11+7+12OpenNoneNone


18thRuby Knight Vindicator 5+13+11+7+12OpenPracticed SpellcasterArmored Stealth


19thRuby Knight Vindicator 6+14+12+8+13OpenNoneNone


20thRuby Knight Vindicator 7+15+12+8+13OpenNoneDivine Impetus





Spells Per Day
0: 6
1: 6
2: 6
3: 6
4: 6
5: 5
6: 5
7: 4
8: 4
9: X

Gear and Items:
Timothy could benefit from Wisdom and Charisma boosting items, obviously, but none of them are strictly necessary. Honestly, I designed him as a fairly self-sufficient individual as far as magical items are concerned. Anything would be a benefit (Nightsticks, even), but he can operate well without them quite reasonably.

History and Fluff
Timothy began his life as a simple man, living his life as an assistant to the towns healer and managing to help out whenever someone was injured and needed immediate assistance. Then, one dark and forbidding night, his town was sacked and Timothy realized he couldn’t prevent all of the worlds atrocities by simply healing the physical pain.

He trekked to a nearby city and during his march picked up a few tricks of martial combat from one of the caravan guards. After he arrived at the city he enlisted into their army as a medic, and honed his craft, excelling in the healing arts due to his younger life.

Years passed, and Timothy had survived many harrowing ordeals. He also assisted scores of other adventurers in surviving their own trials. His experience as a combat medic provided an excellent (and originally unintentional) boost in combatting the undead and he eventually made that his profession full time.

He joined the Knights of the Raven and set about delivering justice to the unwilling undead and those that created them, with a practically finite amount of healing ability to support himself and martial prowess enough to stand against the evil clergy that created them.

Level 5:
You’re a healer. Granted, you can heal quite often, and when deep into combat, you shouldn’t rely too much on your Crusader capabilities this early. Granted, with a few carefully chosen strikes you can ignore DR, heal your allies outside of spellcasting, and provide them benefits while in melee.

Level 10:
Full on combat medic. Tossing out high DC Sanctuary kickers onto your healing spells helps you keep allies alive and outside of immediate threat while you’re still casting 5th level spells and rushing into and out of combat. You’re fairly sturdy without additional spell backings, and can cast a few low level Quickened spells for when you don’t want to go big with the typically 5th level spells.

Level 15:
Quickened Heals spell doom for Undead opponents, and with your enhanced Strikes and Stances from Ruby Knight starting to provide tangible benefits (You have 5th level strikes at this point, after all) you can unleash a variety of powerful combat abilities when pacifism fails you. The sweet spot comes in here, when you’re burning spells to recover maneuvers and tossing around Heals whenever you want.

Level 20:
Ruby Knight helps you build on top of an already hardy base and makes you fairly invulnerable at this point. With excellent saves, a nearly bottomless well of healing at your disposal (including spontaneously cast Heals for 212 hit points each up to 13 times per day), and 7th level strikes at your disposal you have a variety of techniques you can bring to bear in your divine fight against the unlawfully created undead.

[Kazudo]

I wash my hands of your...Demolition!



Evan Cleansedhand
LG Human Crusader 2/Monk 1/Swordsage 2/Warblade 2/Death Delver 1/Apostle of Peace 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10/Contemplative 1

The Preacher

Ability Scores Spells per Day/Spells Known
Spells per Day/Spells Known


Level
Str
Dex
Con
Int
Wis
Cha


1st
14
10
14
8
17
13


4th
14
10
14
8
18
13



7th
14
10
14
8
20
13

8th
14
10
14
8
20
14

11th
16
10
14
8
22
14


12th
16
10
14
8
23
14

[tr]
15th
18
10
14
8
25
16

16th
18
10
14
8
26
16

19th
20
10
16
8
28
18

20th
20
10
16
8
29
18

The Build


Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1st
Monk 1
+0
+2
+2
+2
Hide 4, Concentration 4, Diplomacy 4, Knowledge (Religion) 4
Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty (Human), Improved Unarmed Strike (Monk), Stunning Fist (Monk)
Unarmed Strike, AC Bonus


2nd
Crusader 1
+1
+4
+2
+2
Hide 4, Concentration 5, Diplomacy 5, Knowledge (Religion) 5, Intimidate 1
Intuitive Attack (Vow of Poverty)
Furious Counterstrike, Steely Resolve 5


3rd
Crusader 2
+2
+5
+2
+2
Hide 4, Concentration 6, Diplomacy 6, Knowledge (Religion) 6, Intimidate 2
Extend Spell
Indomitable Soul


4th
Swordsage 1
+2
+5
+4
+4
Hide 4, Concentration 7, Diplomacy 6, Knowledge (Religion) 7, Intimidate 2, Sense Motive 1, Heal 2
Vow of Nonviolence (Vow of Poverty)
Quick to Act +1, Weapon Focus (Tiger Claw)


5th
Warblade 1
+3
+7
+4
+4
Hide 4, Concentration 8, Diplomacy 7, Knowledge (Religion) 7, Intimidate 4, Sense Motive 1, Heal 2
-
Battle Clarity (Reflex Saves), Weapon Aptitude


6th
Death Delver 1
+3
+9
+4
+6
Hide 4, Concentration 9, Diplomacy 7, Knowledge (Religion) 8, Intimidate 4, Sense Motive 1, Heal 2
Extra Turning, Vow of Peace (Vow of Poverty)
Deathsense, Rebuke Undead


7th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 1
+4
+9
+4
+8
Hide 4, Concentration 10, Diplomacy 7, Knowledge (Religion) 8, Intimidate 4, Sense Motive 4, Heal 2
-
-


8th
Apostle of Peace 1
+4
+11
+6
+10
Hide 4, Concentration 11, Diplomacy 7, Knowledge (Religion) 8, Intimidate 4, Sense Motive 7, Heal 2
Subduing Strike (Vow of Poverty)
Turn Undead


9th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 2
+5
+11
+6
+11
Hide 4, Concentration 12, Diplomacy 7, Knowledge (Religion) 8, Intimidate 4, Sense Motive 10, Heal 2
Persistent Spell
Sudden Recovery


10th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 3
+6
+12
+7
+11
Hide 4, Concentration 12, Diplomacy 7, Knowledge (Religion) 13, Intimidate 4, Sense Motive 10, Heal 2
Nymph’s Kiss (Vow of Poverty)
-


11th
Contemplative 1
+6
+12
+7
+13
Hide 4, Concentration 14, Diplomacy 7, Knowledge (Religion) 13, Intimidate 4, Sense Motive 11, Heal 2
-
Bonus Domain (Magic)


12th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 4
+7
+12
+7
+14
Hide 4, Concentration 15, Diplomacy 7, Knowledge (Religion) 13, Intimidate 4, Sense Motive 15, Heal 2
Divine Metamagic (Persist), Nimbus of Light (Vow of Poverty)
-


13th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 5
+8
+12
+7
+14
Hide 4, Concentration 16, Diplomacy 8, Knowledge (Religion) 14, Intimidate 5, Sense Motive 16, Heal 2
-
Armored Stealth


14th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 6
+9
+13
+8
+15
Hide 4, Concentration 17, Diplomacy 10, Knowledge (Religion) 15, Intimidate 5, Sense Motive 17, Heal 2
Knight of the Red Falcon (Vow of Poverty)
-


15th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 7
+10
+13
+8
+15
Hide 4, Concentration 18, Diplomacy 13, Knowledge (Religion) 15, Intimidate 5, Sense Motive 18, Heal 2
Martial Study (Scorpion’s Parry)
Divine Impetus


16th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 8
+11
+13
+8
+16
Hide 4, Concentration 19, Diplomacy 16, Knowledge (Religion) 15, Intimidate 5, Sense Motive 19, Heal 2
Gift of Faith (Vow of Poverty)
-


17th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 9
+12
+14
+9
+16
Hide 4, Concentration 20, Diplomacy 19, Knowledge (Religion) 15, Intimidate 5, Sense Motive 20, Heal 2
-
Divine Fury


18th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 10
+13
+14
+9
+17
Hide 4, Concentration 21, Diplomacy 21, Knowledge (Religion) 16, Intimidate 5, Sense Motive 21, Heal 2
Martial Study (Fool’s Strike), Knight of Stars (Vow of Poverty)
-

19th
Warblade 2
+15
+15
+10
+17
Hide 4, Concentration 22, Diplomacy 22, Knowledge (Religion) 16, Intimidate 7, Sense Motive 22, Heal 2
Holy Radiance (Vow of Poverty)
Uncanny Dodge


20th
Swordsage 2
+14
+14
+10
+18
Hide 4, Concentration 23, Diplomacy 23, Knowledge (Religion) 16, Intimidate 11, Sense Motive 23, Heal 2
-
AC Bonus



Spells
Spells per Day/Spells Known


Level
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th


8th
4
2
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


9th
5
3
0
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


10th
5
3
1
0
-
-
-
-
-
-


11th
6
3
2
1
0
-
-
-
-
-


12th
6
3
3
2
1
0
-
-
-
-


13th
6
3
3
3
2
1
0
-
-
-


14th
6
3
3
3
2
1
0
-
-
-


15th
6
4
3
3
3
2
1
0
-
-


16th
6
4
4
3
3
3
2
1
0
-


17th
6
5
4
4
4
4
3
2
1
0


18th
6
5
5
4
4
4
4
3
2
1

*Table shows Apostle of Peace spells/day and does not take bonus spells into account. Death Delver gets only the bonus first level spells from a high Wis score.
Maneuvers


Level
Initiator Level
Maneuvers Readied
New Maneuvers Known
New Stances Known

2nd
1
5(2)
Leading the Attack, Vanguard Strike, Crusader’s Strike, Douse the Flames, Charging Minotaur
Leading the Charge


3rd
2
5(2)
-
Iron Guard’s Glare


4th
3
4+5(2)
Rabid Wolf Strike, Counter Charge, Baffling Defense, Shadow Jaunt, Cloak of Deception, Mighty Throw
Island of Blades


5th
4
3+4+5(2)
Emerald Razor, Action Before Thought, Sapphire Nightmare Blade
Punishing Stance


6th
5
3+4+5(2)
-
-


7th
6
3+4+5(2)
-
Wolf Pack Tactics


8th
6
3+4+5(2)
-
-


9th
7
3+4+5(2)
White Raven Tactics
-


10th
8
3+4+5(2)
-
-


11th
9
3+4+5(2)
-
-


12th
10
3+4+5(2)
Divine Surge
-


13th
11
4+4+5(2)
-
-


14th
12
4+4+5(2)
Order Forged From Chaos, Scorpion’s Parry
Aura of Perfect Order


15th
13
4+4+5(2)
-
-


16th
14
4+4+5(2)
Swarming Assault
-


17th
15
5+4+5(2)
-
-


18th
16
5+4+5(2)
White Raven Hammer, Fool’s Strike
-

[tr]
19th
17
5+4+5(2)
War Master’s Charge
Stance of Alacrity


20th
18
5+4+5(2)
Time Stands Still
Ghostly Defense




The Sermons
Level 5:“Let me ask ya a question, brothers and sisters. Do you have a moment to tauk about Wee Jas?

AH SAY, DO YOU HAVE A MOUMANT TA TAUK ABOUT WEE JAS?!

Tha Ruby Sorceress teaches us tha secrets of life and death. Through her, all mannah of miracles are paussible. Can ah get an amen?
AH SAY, CAN AH GET AN AMEN?!”

No use sugarcoating it, the build starts off a little slow. You’re basically a VoP mundane, going towards Vow of Peace and Vow of Nonviolence, which is not really a good thing to be. Still, it’s not quite as bad for ToB types or at early levels. You’ve got some maneuvers and a pretty high save on Stunning Fist. Try to make the best of it.

Level 10:“For ah have been brought loooowwww by tha forces of darkness. Ah have faced tha looming spectah of death, and been returned ta life by Wee Jas’s mercy. Ah saw her face appear before mah dying eyes, but she said that it was naut yet mah time. And lo, ah was born again by her graceh! I returned from death to serve Wee Jas in this life and ta preach her gauspel.”

Apostle of Peace? In my Ruby Knight Vindicator? It’s more likely than you think, apparently. After some final rough levels, the build finally starts to come together. We’ve entered the SI and gotten to Sudden Recovery, with a rebuke pool from Death Delver and a turning pool from Apostle of Peace (both of which get +4 from Extra Turning) to fuel it. Apostle of Peace can also cast cure spells spontaneously, just like a Cleric, which you’ll actually have to do on occasion, since VoP means no wand of CLW. Apostle of Peace casting is just starting to get going at this point though, so more on that later. Also, as you’ve now got the necessary feat to do it non-lethally, and VoP adds its weapon enhancement bonuses to anything you attack with, grab a longspear as the one simple weapon you’re allowed to carry, so that you can threaten out to 10ft between that and your unarmed strike. Manuever-wise, you’ve got a number of decent strikes, and some good counters to shore up your reflex save and shut down anyone who resists your aura of good vibes and takes a swing at you. Also, White Raven Tactics, which, when combined with Divine Recovery, means that even at your most useless you’re still giving extra turns to the party member who can contribute meaningfully.

Level 15:“Would you like to comment on the recent sex scandal that you’ve become embroiled in – the allegations that you’ve been engaging in an affair with a fey of the Seelie court?”

“Yes ah would! Is Wee Jas not a goddess of love and beauty as well as justice? Does she not consort with the chaotic Norebo?! This so-called scandal is nothing moah than an attempt to slandah me, and I shall not stand for it! The powah that Wee Jas has blessed me with should be the only evidence ah need of her approval! Good day sih! Do you heah me? Ah say good day!”

Now we’re getting somewhere. We’re up to 7th level spells through Apostle of Peace, and getting up there with maneuvers as well. The best thing about Apostle of Peace’s spell list is minionmancy and buffing, so we’re going to kick that up a notch by focusing on White Raven. Order Forged From Chaos deserves a special mention for its ability to move not just you, but your entire army of Planar Allies (and the rest of your party too, I guess) as a move action. We can also prepare a Magic Domain spell in one slot of each spell level (per the rules for gaining domains on page 20 of Complete Divine). Ask your DM how Imbue With Spell Ability works for a non-Cleric caster. My interpretation is that spells cast from Apostle of Peace slots aren’t Cleric spells, so it doesn’t work for you, but if it does, it could be a nice boon for your action economy, and might even make some in combat healing (albeit performed through a surrogate) viable. Taking Martial Study for Scorpion’s Parry means that if you find yourself fighting enemies on two sides, you can make one of them hit the other instead of you as an immediate action. You also have Divine Impetus now, meaning that even if you burned your swift by using an immediate action on a counter, you can trade your standard action for a swift one if you really need to change stances or recover a maneuver. You also have some capacity for Persistomancy, but keep some turn/rebuke attempts saved for RKV’s abilities.

Level 20:“Behold! See the glory of Wee Jas that shines through me! Through my understanding of tha secrets of life and death that she teaches, I can heal tha sick and punish tha wicked. Though mah own hands deal no death and ah mourn tha loss of every life, still I may ensure that the sinnahs who take up arms against the Jasidian faith face the Stern Lady’s judgment! But you of strong moral charachtah need not fear that punishment from me. Come, let me lay my hands upon you, heal youah injuries, and cast away the evil that plagues you. DEMONS BE GONE!”

At 16th level, you get Swarm Tactics. Combine with Order Forged From Chaos, and you can use your move and standard actions to surround an enemy with your army of minions, smack them, and give each and every one of your minions a shot at them too. At 17th level you hit 9th level spells, which include Gate, Miracle, and Disjunction through the Magic Domain. At 18th level you pick up Fool’s Strike through Martial Study, allowing you another way to make your enemies attacks against you backfire instead of just fail. At 19th level, we kick things into overdrive with War Master’s Charge and Stance of Alacrity allowing us to bring the army of pet outsiders down on the enemy harder and faster, and giving an extra counter per round when they try swinging back. 20th level gives us Time Stands Still, which makes Divine Fury much more potent. Those full attacks unfortunately only have 3 iteratives, possibly with the addition of flurry, unless you use fractional BAB, but even so, it’s pretty respectable. All in all, Evan is pretty damn lethal for someone who can’t deal lethal damage to living creatures.

Interpreting the Scriptures
Obeying Your VowsVow of Nonviolence and Vow of Peace are somewhat notorious for being headaches. This build attempts to circumvent those headaches where possible, obeying the letter of the law for the vows while still doling out justice for the Witch Goddess. You can’t deal non-lethal damage, but your party members and summoned allies are under no such restriction until the enemy becomes helpless, and so you use White Raven Tactics, Swarming Assault, and War Master’s Charge to give them more lethal attacks, in hopes that one of those attacks will knock the enemy from “up and fighting” to “dead and facing judgment” without stopping at the point in between where you have to stabilize and take them prisoner. You can also force your enemies to deal lethal damage to themselves and each other through Scorpion’s Parry, Fool’s Strike, and Ghostly Defense.

If you do have to take someone prisoner, then hand them over to a summoned minion, make the minion swear an oath not to kill them, and have the minion take them to the proper authorities. One of three things will happen. 1) The minion or the authorities, being servants of Wee Jas will get the directive from the higher authority of a goddess of death to snuff the enemy anyway, someone other than you or your party will spend a day taking a few minor penalties that don’t affect you in any way. 2) The prisoner will rot in a dungeon for a while, and you will spend minimal resources sending them there.


Some people interpret the clause in Apostle of Peace about being able to use defensive items as a relaxation of VoP’s prohibition on magic items. I personally do not see it that way, but if your DM does, you might be better off making your first level Crusader instead of Monk and getting Improved Unarmed Strike from Unarmed Swordsage instead (which works, as Unarmed Swordsage takes the Unarmed Strike feature from the Monk whole cloth, which includes IUS as a bonus feat), and then wearing a Monk’s belt to get Wis to AC. You might also be able to get away with all manner of items under the pretext of defense. Nightsticks come to mind.

Adding CheeseYou have access to Wish via the SLAs of Gated Solars. Among many other things, this should mean inherent bonuses to your ability scores. The only reason this is here and not just added on to the stat table is that it costs some exp. I don’t want to directly assume that I’ll get more exp than my fellow competitors, at least not beyond what I already need to replace expensive material components with VoP, but exp is a river, as they say, so it’s probably not that big an issue in practice.

You also have native access to the Dark Chaos Shuffle via Miracle, Solar Wishes, or Solar Cleric casting if the DM is nice and sends you one that’s properly prepared. At any rate, if your DM lets you do the Chaos Shuffle, do so, as you run out of worthwhile VoP feats about halfway into the build. By level 20 there are six or seven Exalted Feats that aren’t doing a lot for you. Trading those out would let you snag another Martial Study for Strike of Righteous Vitality to boost the healing theme of the competition, DMM Extend, and a few more Extra Turnings, meaning you can run around with Extended Persisted buffs, doubling the number you can have up by alternating them between days, and still have plenty of turn attempts to fuel the RKV abilities. You could actually get rid of all your exalted feats save for Intuitive Attack this way if you wanted, since you don’t lose the Apostle of Peace class abilities from no longer qualifying, but that’s not really in the spirit of the build. I’d be inclined to leave the various vows alone.

The Good Books
Book of Exalted Deeds: Apostle of Peace, all the Exalted Feats
Complete Arcane: Persistent Spell
Complete Divine: Contemplative, Divine Metamagic
Heroes of Horror: Death Delver
Tome of Battle: Crusader, Ruby Knight Vindicator, Swordsage, Warblade, Maneuvers, Martial Study, Martial Stance
Everything else should be in the SRD

The fluff of this build is not intended to suggest anything about leaders in any real world religion, except perhaps that such leaders make for entertaining characters, which they would likely agree is part of the point.

[Kazudo]

Utinam me facit istorum est Latine sciebant.


Background

Educis a morte. Custodi animam.

Mr. Margrave has always been a warrior for his goddess, though his faith was strengthened ever since his brush with death early in his career. He was a on the front lines defending a Jasinian temple against a heretical cult bent on preaching their blasphemous dogma. The fighting was intense, and he engaged in a fighting retreat all the way into the inner sanctum of the temple, where at last a cultists blade felled him. Had another unit of defenders not fortuitously taken a shortcut through the sanctum on their way to defend another section of the temple, his brief service would have ended there. Instead, he lay at the heart of a temple to his goddess, his life ebbing away, and found himself not afraid, but fascinated. He was dragged to safety and brought back from the brink of death, but what he had seen had changed him, and he was closer to his goddess as a result.

His fascination with the ebb and flow of life eventually led to him leaving his military duties behind temporarily to go on a pilgrimage in search of a deeper understanding of death. His journeys brought him to battlefields, healers communities, and to more than one necromancer. When he returned to his temple, his insights had gifted him with some small measure of divine power. His newfound talents coupled with his martial training made him an ideal candidate for induction into the Ruby Knights, and he took to the training with zeal.

And now, as a full member of the order, Mr. Margrave is a terrifying instrument of Wee Jas' divine will. He is adept at stalking through the shadows to slip in and smite selective targets, being an engine of unstoppable destruction on a battlefield, raising an army of undead soldiers, or even tending to wounds of the fallen.

He is a bringer of death, and a keeper of life.

Build
Mr. Margrave
LN Human Crusader 8/Death Delver 2/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10

Starting Stats: Str 14, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 14
Final Stats: Str 19, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 14
Stat increases go to Str.



Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1st
Crusader 1
+1
+2
+0
+0
Balance 2, Concentration 4, Heal 2, Hide 2, Intimidate 4, K:Religion 4, Move Silently 2, Tumble 4
Power Attack, Able Learner
Furious Counterstrike, Steely Resolve 5


2nd
Crusader 1
+2
+3
+0
+0
Balance 4, Concentration 5, Intimidate 5, K:Religion 5, Tumble 5

Indomitable Soul


3rd
Crusader 3
+3
+3
+1
+1
Concentration 6, Hide 3, Intimidate 6, K:Religion 6, Move Silently 3, Tumble 6
Magic Devotion
Zealous Surge


4th
Crusader 4
+4
+4
+1
+1
Balance 5, Concentration 7, Heal 3, Intimidate 7, K:Religion 7, Tumble 7

Steely Resolve 10


5th
Crusader 5
+5
+4
+1
+1
Concentration 8, Hide 4, Intimidate 8, K:Religion 8, Move Silently 4, Tumble 8




6th
Crusader 6
+6
+5
+2
+2
Concentration 9, Heal 4, Intimidate 9, Tumble 9, Never Outnumbered
Adaptive Style
Smite 1/day


7th
Death Delver 1
+6
+7
+2
+4
Concentration 10, Hide 5, K:Religion 9, Move Silently 5

Deathsense, Rebuke Undead, Spellcasting


8th
Death Delver 2
+7
+8
+2
+5
Concentration 11, Intimidate 10, K:Religion 10, Tumble 10

Deadened Soul, Spontaneous Casting


9th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 1
+8
+8
+2
+7
Concentration 12, Hide 7, K:Religion 11, Move Silently 6, Tumble 11
Extra Turning



10th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 2
+9
+8
+2
+8
Concentration 13, Hide 10, K:Religion 12, Tumble 12

Divine Recovery, +1 Level Divine Spellcasting Class


11th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 3
+10
+9
+3
+8
Concentration 14, Hide 12, K:Religion 13, Move Silently 7, Tumble 13

+1 Level Divine Spellcasting Class


12th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 4
+11
+9
+3
+9
Concentration 15, Hide 15, K:Religion 14, Tumble 15
Touch of Healing
+1 Level Divine Spellcasting Class


13th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 5
+12
+9
+3
+9
Concentration 16, Hide 16, Intimidate 11, K:Religion 15, Move Silently 8, Tumble 16

Armored Stealth, +1 Level Divine Spellcasting Class


14th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 6
+13
+10
+4
+10
Concentration 17, Hide 17, Intimidate 13, K:Religion 16, Tumble 17




15th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 7
+14
+10
+4
+10
Concentration 18, Hide 18, Intimidate 14, K:Religion 17, Move Silently 9, Tumble 18
Augment Healing
Divine Impetus, +1 Level Divine Spellcasting Class


16th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 8
+15
+10
+4
+11
Concentration 19, Hide 19, Intimidate 16, K:Religion 18, Tumble 19

+1 Level Divine Spellcasting Class


17th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 9
+16
+11
+5
+11
Concentration 20, Hide 20, Intimidate 17, K:Religion 19, Move Silently 10, Tumble 20

Divine Fury, +1 Level Divine Spellcasting Class


18th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 10
+17
+11
+5
+12
Concentration 21, Hide 21, Intimidate 19, K:Religion 20, Tumble 21
Darkstalker
+1 Level Divine Spellcasting Class


19th
Crusader 7
+18
+11
+5
+12
Concentration 22, Hide 22, Intimidate 20, K:Religion 21, Move Silently 11, Tumble 22




20th
Crusader 8
+19
+12
+5
+12
Concentration 23, Hide 23, Intimidate 22, K:Religion 22, Tumble 23

Steely Resolve 15




Spell List
Spells marked with an asterisk(*) are Conjuration(Healing) spells.
1st:
Bless, Cause Fear, Detect Poison, Detect Undead, Hide From Undead, Lesser Restoration*, Remove Fear
2nd:
Bear's Endurance, Bull's Strength, Command Undead, Delay Poison*, Remove Paralysis*, Resist Energy, Rigor Mortis
3rd:
Animate Dead, Deep Slumber, Halt Undead, Protection From Energy, Remove Blindness/Deafness*, Remove Disease*, Speak With Dead
4th:
Break Enchantment, Death Ward, Enervation, Fear, Freedom of Movement, Neutralize Poison*, Restoration*


Maneuvers/Stances Known

Maneuvers/Stances Known:


Level
Initiator Level
Maneuvers Known
Stances Known
Maneuvers


1
1
5
1
Crusader's Strike, Douse the Flames, Leading the Attack, Stone Bones, Vanguard's Strike, Martial Spirit Stance


2
2
5
2
Iron Guard's Glare Stance


3
3
6
2
Battle Leader's Charge


4
4
6
2



5
5
7
2
Revitalizing Strike


6
6
7
2



7
6
7
2



8
7
7
2



9
8
7
3
Island of Blades Stance


10
9
8
3
Cloak of Deception


11
10
8
3



12
11
9
3
Bloodletting Strike


13
12
9
3



14
13
10
4
Shadow Blink, Assassin's Stance


15
14
10
4



16
15
11
4
Castigating Strike


17
16
11
4



18
17
12
4
Five-Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike


19
18
13
4
Strike of Righteous Vitality


20
19
13
5
Immortal Fortitude Stance




Tactics

In General

Mr. Margrave walks the line between the realms of the dead and the realms of the living. He is just as skilled at dealing death as he is preserving life. He has an array of impressive healing abilities, and numerous devastating attacks. He is at home on the front lines taking the fight to the enemies of Wee Jas, or sneaking through the shadows to assassinate her detractors. He picks up a falchion and dons some platemail and goes to town on his enemies.

Level 5

Margrave plays much like any other Crusader at this level, with a couple of notable exceptions. The first is that he has a few useful mobility skills (Balance and Tumble) as well as decent stealth capability. The second is his Magic Devotion feat. It's a handy little 1/day ranged option at this point, and nicely fits the idea that he is a warrior who has dedicated himself to a Goddess of Magic.

Level 10

Margrave's stealth ability at this point has gotten a huge boost. He's gotten much better at hiding (thanks to it now being a class skill), and now has the Cloak of Deception maneuver from the Shadow Hand school thanks to his Ruby Knight Vindicator levels. But that's just the tip of the iceberg. His Death Delver levels represent his deeper understanding of his Goddess's connection to death, and he is able to tap into some of her divine power to control undead, protect others from the undead, sense the ebb and flow of life in others, and channel divine power into healing the wounds of the living. He can also swap his readied maneuvers in an instant, as well as recover them with holy power. The Extra Turning feat provides ample turn attempts to power his abilities, and a reasonable surplus to use with Magic Devotion should he need to use that ranged option more frequently. The Never Outnumbered skill trick gives him a nice alternative to slaying his opponents.

Note: Margrave's spell list might look rather anemic, but he's got almost every Conjuration(Healing) spell you could want: Lesser Restoration, Delay Poison, Remove Paralysis, Remove Blindness/Deafness, Remove Disease, Neutralize Poison, and Restoration. In addition, his second level of Death Delver lets him spontaneously cast cure spells. And his Devoted Spirit maneuvers give him further healing options meaning he can play the role of in-combat healer quite well. He hits the sweet spot for out of combat healing at level 12, when he picks up the Touch of Healing reserve feat.

Level 15

Margrave's hiding ability is now very good with the addition of the Armored Stealth ability and maxed ranks in hide. The Touch of Healing Reserve Feat and Augmented Healing feats both provide him with a massively improved ability to heal the wounds of others, as well as potentially improve his spells that heal ability damage (Augmented Healing just states that it adds 2 points to the amount of damage healed by a conjuration(healing) spell, it doesn't specify hitpoint damage. Presumably, this means you can use it to heal 1d4+2 points of ability damage with Lesser Restoration). He continues to delve into the Shadow Hand maneuvers, and picks up some excellent utility and offense.

Level 20

At this point, Mr. Margrave is a juggernaut on the battlefield. Divine Fury gives him another way to hammer his enemies with his abundant Turn attempts, and his high level maneuvers make him a massively heavy hitter as well as improving his survivability to ridiculous levels. He also picks up Darkstalker, rounding out his stealth abilities.


Suggested Equipment
The standard array of usual items is good here, stat & save boosters, awesome weapon, awesome armor, etc. This section isn't here for that, it's here for some specifics:

Stealth boosters - Quick, somebody get that man a suit of +1 Mithral Full Plate of Silent Moves to boost his Move Silently skill! Other than that, he's good.

Metamagic Rods - Metamagic Rods on a frontliner? In this case, absolutely! Drop some change on lesser rods of Extend, Quicken, and Silent. Why Lesser Rods? They're reasonably cheap, and the lesser version works with 3/4 of your spells (you only get up to 4th level spells).


Sources

Player's Handbook Extra Turning, Power Attack
Tome of Battle Ruby Knight Vindicator, Adaptive Style
Heroes of Horror Death Delver
Complete Champion Magic Devotion, Touch of Healing
Complete Divine Augment Healing
Races of Destiny Able Learner
Lords of Madness Darkstalker
Cityscape Web Enhancement (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) Skilled City Dweller (Swap Ride for Tumble)

[Kazudo]

Note: For anyone diverted to this build from less reputable sites, we don't mean THAT kind of fist.



History of the FistSpurned at birth by his horrified mother, the man later known as the Fist of Wee Jas was dropped off at a Jasite church not even 4 hours after he was born. Although he was indoctrinated by the church, he did not develop any clerical abilities. His aberrant blood instead manifested, and he began to exhibit strange abilities. Learned sages that the church contacted identified them as psionic abilities. Regardless, he was fully trained in church policies.

Later in life, he was introduced into the Cleansing Dawn heresy, a splinter sect of the Jasite clergy which believed that all undeath was unnatural, even when used as voluntary guardians. To that end, they developed a special connection to the Positive Energy Plane, which had the added benefit of healing their living allies.

Many people believed the Fist to be no more than a legend, however, it is a known fact that for decades, the leader of the Cleansing Dawn has always had a sinuous tendril coiling about them that is otherwise unexplained.

The Fist of Wee JasDaelkyr Halfblood Divine Mind 4/Crusader 4/Divine Crusader 2/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10

Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1st
Divine Mind 1
+0
+2
+0
+2
Autohypnosis 4, Knowledge (religion) 4
Hidden Talent (mind thrust)B, Power Attack, Symbiont MasteryB
Mantle (Mental Power), psychic aura 5ft


2nd
Divine Mind 2
+1
+3
+0
+3
Autohypnosis 5, Knowledge (religion) 5
-
-


3rd
Divine Mind 3
+2
+3
+1
+3
Autohypnosis 6, Knowledge (religion) 6
Weapon Focus (Morningstar)
Psychic aura 10ft


4th
Divine Mind 4
+3
+4
+1
+4
Autohypnosis 7, Knowledge (religion) 7
-
Stygian path, Charisma +1


5th
Crusader 1
+4
+6
+1
+4
Intimidate 4
-
Furious counterstrike, steely resolve 5


6th
Crusader 2
+5
+7
+1
+4
Hide 2
Heretic of the Faith
Indomitable soul


7th
Crusader 3
+6/+1
+7
+2
+5
Hide 4
-
Zealous surge


8th
Crusader 4
+7/+2
+8
+2
+5
Knowledge (religion) 8, Intimidate 7
-
Steely resolve 10, Charisma +1


9th
Divine Crusader 1
+7/+2
+10
+2
+7
Intimidate 9
Law Devotion
Aura of Law, Domain access (Healing)


10th
Divine Crusader 2
+8/+3
+11
+2
+8
Intimidate 11
-
-


11th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 1
+9/+4
+11
+2
+10
Intimidate 13, Never Outnumbered
-
-


12th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 2
+10/+5
+11
+2
+11
Balance 2, Intimidate 15
Imperious Command
Divine recovery, Charisma +1


13th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 3
+11/+6/+1
+12
+3
+11
Balance 5, Intimidate 16
-



14th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 4
+12/+7/+2
+12
+3
+12
Balance 8, Intimidate 17
-
-


15th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 5
+13/+8/+3
+12
+3
+12
Spellcraft 3, Intimidate 18
Extra Turning
Armored stealth


16th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 6
+13/+8/+3
+13
+4
+13
Spellcraft 4, Intimidate 19, Knowledge (religion) 10
-
Charisma +1


17th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 7
+15/+10/+5
+13
+4
+13
Intimidate 20, Knowledge (religion) 13
-
Divine impetus


18th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 8
+16/+11/+6/+1
+13
+4
+14
Intimidate 21, Knowledge (religion) 16
Practiced Spellcaster (Divine Crusader)
-


19th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 9
+17/+12/+7/+2
+14
+5
+14
Intimidate 22, Knowledge (religion) 19
-
Divine fury


20th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 10
+18/+13/+8/+3
+14
+5
+15
Balance 10, Intimidate 23, Knowledge (religion) 20
-
Charisma +1



Ability Scores (after Racial Modifiers)
Strength 16, Dexterity 11, Constitution 14, Intelligence 10, Wisdom 11, Charisma 15


Level Snapshots
Level 5: You’ve got 4 levels of Divine Mind before your Crusader level, giving you an IL of 3, letting you pick a half dozen 2nd level maneuvers instead of first level ones, giving you nice goodies such as Mountain Hammer and Tactical Strike instead of being stuck with Crusader’s Strike and the like. You’re focused mainly on team support, giving coverage not only with your Martial Stance (either Iron Guard’s Glare or Martial Spirit), but also with your psychic aura and power. Your Aberrant typing comes in handy granting you immunity to a few common spells. With a Breed Leech as your chosen symbiont, you actually have a better Improved Toughness for free (you’ll get +7 HP over the +5 for the CW feat).

Level 10: You’ve joined the Cleansing Dawn sect of the Jasite clergy. This branch of the clergy embraces the thought that undeath in and of itself is unclean, and it should purged by bursts of holy light and spiked bludgeons. Heretic of the Faith not only allows you to access one new domain for your deity (within reason) but lets you change the favored weapon of the deity, in this case from the relatively useless dagger to a morningstar. The reason that you’re choosing a morningstar over a greatsword or the like is because of the tentacle whip symbiont (And you apparently can’t hold a weapon in the same hand. If your DM allows you to use a two-handed weapon with it, feel free to choose a better weapon). You’re sacrificing a few points of damage (the difference between a 2d6 and 1d8) for the ability to deliver touch spells at 15ft. This has both offensive and defensive applications, as undead are harmed by conjuration (healing) spells. It’s also worth noting that many of your maneuvers only require a melee attack, not an adjacent opponent. Continuing in your party support role, you also pick up maneuvers like Bonecrusher, Vanguard Strike and the hilariously broken White Raven Tactics.

Level 15: Everything that you’ve worked for improves here. With Law Devotion, you get a handy boost to hit/AC, and Extra Turning lets you activate it more often. You pick up some minor fear-locking with Imperious Command, but it’s more of a bonus than anything else. As a bonus, you’ve got nearly full BAB to pour into Law Devotion. You also get access to heal at this level, which is pretty damned handy, no?

Level 20: You’ve finally hit the apex of your abilities. You manage to pick up the infamous Mountain Tombstone Strike as a capstone feature, dealing 2d6 constitution damage (with no save!). Divine Fury and Law Devotion don’t stack, so you can freely put the Law bonus into AC and use a Turn attempt to fuel your to hit. You’ve got mass heal as well, and, with the improved Caster Level granted to you by the Practiced Spellcaster feat, you get the entire benefit for your regular heals. You’ve also managed to sneak in the swift action Shadow Blink, greatly improving your maneuverability.

Psionics


Level
Base PP
Bonus PP
Total


1st
0
0
0


2nd
1
1
2


3rd
2
1
3


4th-20th
3
2
5



Power known: mind thrust

Maneuvers
Maneuvers Readied (Granted)


Level
Known
Readied
IL


1st
-
-
0.5


2nd
-
-
1


3rd
-
-
1.5


4th
-
-
2


5th
5
5 (2)
3


6th
5
5 (2)
4


7th
6
5 (2)
5


8th
6
5 (2)
6


9th
6
5 (2)
6.5


10th
6
5 (2)
7


11th
6
5 (2)
8


12th
7
5 (2)
9


13th
7
5 (2)
10


14th
8
5 (2)
11


15th
8
6 (3)
12


16th
9
6 (3)
13


17th
9
6 (3)
14


18th
10
6 (3)
15


19th
10
7 (4)
16


20th
11
7 (4)
17



Maneuvers Known: Mountain Hammer, Tactical Strike, Vanguard Strike, Foehammer, White Raven Tactics, Bonecrusher, Divine Surge, Order Forged From Chaos, Shadow Blink, White Raven Hammer, Mountain Tombstone Strike

Stances Known: Martial Spirit, Iron Guard’s Glare, Roots of the Mountain, Aura of Perfect Order

Spells
Spells Known
Healing Domain
cure light wounds
cure moderate wounds
cure serious wounds
cure critical wounds
cure light wounds, mass
heal
regenerate
cure critical wounds, mass
heal, mass

Spells per Day (not including bonus spells)


Level
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th


1st
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


2nd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


3rd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


4th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


5th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


6th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


7th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


8th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


9th
-
0
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


10th
-
1
0
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


11th
-
1
0
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


12th
-
2
1
0
-
-
-
-
-
-


13th
-
2
2
1
0
-
-
-
-
-


14th
-
3
2
2
1
0
-
-
-
-


15th
-
3
3
2
2
1
0
-
-
-


16th
-
3
3
2
2
1
0
-
-
-


17th
-
3
3
3
2
2
1
0
-
-


18th
-
3
3
3
3
2
2
1
0
-


19th
-
3
3
3
3
3
2
2
1
0


20th
-
3
3
3
3
3
3
2
2
1




Source List
Complete Champion
Complete Divine
Complete Psionic
Drow of the Underdark
Eberron Campaign Setting
Expanded Psionics Handbook
Lost Empires of Faerun
Magic of Eberron
Mind’s Eye: Expanded Classes Part IV (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a)
Player’s Handbook
Tome of Battle

[Kazudo]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand I think that's it, ladies and gents! If I missed any builds, please PM me (do NOT post the fact in thread.)

I'm reserving this post just in case.

In the meantime, that's quite a crop of builds!

7 builds means we get a Gold, Silver, Bronze, and HM is actually necessary to vote for this time. If you're competing, PM me your HM vote to make sure anonymity is as reserved as possible. If you're not, just post it in thread for me to tally up.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Aw yeah, someone used Death Delver! My second build was actually pretty close to that one (except I used Swordsage + feats to qualify instead of Crusader).

So that's what, 7 builds? Not too shabby, Kazudo.

[NoACWarrior]

Yep, a nice lineup this time around.
A bit varied as well with different goals in mind.

I did my preliminary reading and will start scoring soon. And yes I read up on ToB, so although I don't know all the combos, I understand how ToB magics work.

If anyone has anything to talk about my above scoring please do so soon - its easier to change the way I score BEFORE I actually do it, than arguing after the fact.

[Kazudo]

ToB magics

That phrase made me happy.

Also, thanks Kuulv! Episode 1 was brand new. This one brought people in, I think, based on the nature of being gutsy and using a decent PRC to require. The next one will probably bring people in because of, well, the sheer nature of the thing.

[Kuulvheysoon]

That phrase made me happy.

Also, thanks Kuulv! Episode 1 was brand new. This one brought people in, I think, based on the nature of being gutsy and using a decent PRC to require. The next one will probably bring people in because of, well, the sheer nature of the thing.

Hey, you earned that praise.

@NoACWarrior: For this one (Crackers with your Cheese (1) - no cheese = 1, one cheesy entry (a feat or alternate cheesy sources) = 0.5, using more than one cheesy entry = 0.), how are you counting people who took the adaptation route and pretty much flipped Wee Jas the bird?

[NoACWarrior]

Hey, you earned that praise.

@NoACWarrior: For this one (Crackers with your Cheese (1) - no cheese = 1, one cheesy entry (a feat or alternate cheesy sources) = 0.5, using more than one cheesy entry = 0.), how are you counting people who took the adaptation route and pretty much flipped Wee Jas the bird?

Thats a good point there - although Kaz said it was ok to refluff, I personally think that the fluff is something of a thematic limitation a player would need to meet in order to use the PrC. In such a case I would probably give the person a 0.5 - although its not that cheesy to ignore worship of Wee Jas, but its a limitation others have adhered to. In the end though, if you were to NOT worship Wee Jas, you might have better build strength (not by much). With that said, I thought everyone worshiped Wee Jas, and even the Paladin based build had a feat to do it special.

Things that I consider cheese is using fractional BAB, Traits / Flaws, Chaos shuffle, LA buyoff, and other things which lead to a distinct advantage versus the trade off of using such alternate rules.

[Sian]

Had two ideas that never got out of planing stage ...

One was eerily similar to the core chassis of Evan Cleansedhand (Crusader/Apostle of Peace), and the other was a OA Shaman with a focus on unarmed combat (and a fair bit of Swordsage involved)

[sakuuya]

Aw yeah, someone used Death Delver! My second build was actually pretty close to that one (except I used Swordsage + feats to qualify instead of Crusader).

Really? Hah, I was trying this exact thing, plus a little Combat Medic (which someone else also used).

I only had fluff left to do, but I'm not too torn up about not getting it in on time, since it turns out I wasn't doing anything particularly interesting. I'll get to judgin', then.

[Ikeren]

Wow, I found all those builds super interesting --- and looked up some new stuff as a result.

Quick Aggregates, copy-pasted from peoples build formats:

Human Paladin4/Crusader1/Ruby Knight Windicator 2/Divine Crusader 1/Ruby Night Windicator +8/Contemplative2/Warblade1/Swordsage 1

Human Healer1/Swordsage2/Crusader3/Knight of the Raven4/Ruby Knight Vindicator10

Water Halfling Spirit Shaman 4/Crusader 1/Knight of the Raven 3/Ruby Knight Vindicator 9/Prestige Paladin 2

Human Healer 4, Crusader 1, Combat Medic 5, Knight of the Raven 3, Ruby Knight 7

Human Crusader 2/Monk 1/Swordsage 2/Warblade 2/Death Delver 1/Apostle of Peace 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10/Contemplative 1

Human Crusader 8/Death Delver 2/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10

Daelkyr Halfblood Divine Mind 4/Crusader 4/Divine Crusader 2/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10

Races:
5 Humans (71.4%)
1 Water Halfling
1 Daelkyr Halfblood

Base Classes:
Crusader: 7 --- unsurprisingly, given the entry requirements, everyone used some crusader (1-8 levels)
Swordsage: 3
Warblade: 2
Healer: 2
Paladin: 1
Spirit Shaman: 1
Monk: 1
Divine Mind: 1
Total: 17, average 2.42.

Prestige Classes:
Ruby Knight Vindicator: 7 (obviously)
Knight of the Raven: 3
Divine Crusader: 2
Contemplative: 2
Death Delver: 2
Prestige Paladin: 1
Combat Medic: 1
Apostle of Peace: 1
Total: 19, average: 2.71.

Great round. Had lots of fun reading everyones builds.

[NoACWarrior]

OK lets get this show on the road.
Originality (5 points):
Race (1) - Original / non-optimized races = 1, Human races = 0.5, expected or optimized races = 0.
Base Class (1) - Using a interesting base class = 1, other base class = 0.5.
Combination of Class abilities (2) - utilizing 3 class abilities to make a single combo (or combo chain) = 2, utilizing 2 class abilities to make a single combo (or combo chain) = 1, not using a combo chain = 0.
Crackers with your Cheese (1) - no cheese = 1, one cheesy entry (a feat or alternate cheesy sources) = 0.5, using more than one cheesy entry = 0.

Power (5 points):
Combat / ability to solve encounters (3) - tier 2 = 3, tier 3 = 2, tier 4 = 1, and tier 5 = 0.
Out of combat / usefulness in RP situations (2) - 0.5 points for each OoC role the build can do.

Build Stability (5 points):
Multiclassing (3) - One base class = 3, two base classes = 2, three or more base classes = 1, taking XP penalties for too much multiclassing = -1 modifier to prior scores.
Prerequisites (2) - If the prerequisites for the PrC are entered in a traditional way (via a full fledged class ability) = 2, If prereqs are gained via conditional class abilities or magic items = 1, if prerequisites are taken away after the fact = 0.

Use of Secret Ingredient (5 points):
Use of the Special Prestige Class (3) - One point for each ability of the PrC used in combat.
Use of the Special Class Feature (2) - ability to heal multiple people at the same time = +0.5, ability to heal at range (not touch) = +0.5, ability to heal more than 40 HP on a single target = +0.5, ability to do other things while healing = +0.5

Ravima of Divided Faiths - Overall score 15.5/20
Human (0.5) , Expected base class (0.5), Combo 3 different class abilities (2), and Cheese reinterpret feat (0.5)
I was impressed with you actually going for Paladin - people don't usualy go that route since it is harder to deal with, you even go a bit on the risky side using a feat reinterpretation to allow you access to a PrC you wouldn't be normally able to access.
Tier 3 (2) and four out of combat / RP abilities (2)
Your build is t3, even with the huge selection of ToB maneuvers and stances, and having spells. Simply put, you have good damage output, and you have good utility, but you do not break the game and outright solve encounters. Your spell list is limited to around 4 domains, and your maneuvers and stances only get you to t3. OoC you are a healer (allows you to be a trap springier as well), have spells, have maneuvers (not all maneuvers are pure combat related), and act as a party face.

4 base classes (1) and traditional prerequisites (2)
You have so much utility, but you are so spread out a single enervation may adversely affect your build. I liked the fact you went for a solid way into each PrC though.

3 abilities of the PrC used in combat (3) and able to use a conjuration healing spell enhanced to heal multiples for more than 40 hp at range as a swift action (2)
The ability to use all three of the RKV's abilities (sometimes requiring it to recharge your used maneuvers) indicates you took the PrC very seriously. DMM quicken is perhaps the best mod you can toss on a mass heal. Its arguably the only good party heal you will have.


Steven the Grim - Overall score 15/20
Human (0.5) , Unexpected Base Class (1), Combo 3+ different class abilities (2), and no cheese (1)
I can't believe you went healer, one of the worst caster classes made. I was more expecting DN or Paladin. The 3+ combo of skills comes from both of your martial adept classes and your KotR levels.
Tier 3 (2) and four out of combat / RP abilities (1.5)
Your build is t3, the healer's spells are not good enough for you to get bumped up a tier. OoC you are a healer via spells (allows you to be a trap springier as well), have maneuvers (not all maneuvers are pure combat related), and act as a party face.

3 base classes (1) and traditional prerequisites (2)
While level loss may not affect your build as much, you have just enough base classes that waters down your abilities - as a healer (not that it affects your power that much). A cool way to enter RKV.

3 abilities of the PrC used in combat (3) and able to use a conjuration healing spell to heal a large amount by touch, or use mass cure light for AoE heals (1)
You go for RKV 10 - which means you intend to use at least 3 class abilities. The issue is getting your big heals off without shaving on action economy and maintaining battle positions - you just can't do it.


Rahaella d'Jorasco, Mercy Knight - Overall score 16/20
Water Halfling (1) , Unexpected Base Class (1), Combo 3 different class abilities (2), and cheese platter (0)
Interesting, spirit shaman water halfling who goes into PrC Paladin and then goes RKV. Mounted combat + your stances and manuvers + buff spells can be very effective at wide area battles when running on foot isn't a good option.
Tier 2 (3) and four out of combat / RP abilities (2)
Your build is technically low t2, although you don't have lvl 9 spells, you have the sheer ability to grab any spell on the druid's spell list, plus the flexibility for being a martial adept. While some people will complain about this build being t2, I justify it in that combined with the t3 abilities of the crusader and the high t2 casting ability of the spirit shaman, even without the very strongest spells (lvl 9) you still have the raw power to break the game when you combine the two. OoC you are a healer, have spells, have maneuvers, and act as a party face.

2 base classes (2) and trading out prerequisites (1)
You have 3 base classes to give you the flexibility which adds to the power of the build, but you use a few reneg features which harms the ability to meet prerequisites - this is a major blow to your stability. The fact I still give you 1 point is because you trade the prerequisites back in, when you could have chosen something else more powerful, not that you needed power anyways.

3 abilities of the PrC used in combat (3) and able to use a conjuration healing spell to heal a large amount by touch, or use mass cure spells for AoE heals (1)
Again, you go for RKV 10 - which means you intend to use at least 3 class abilities. Other builds can get their big heals off without using an action - you still require one, you also are reliant on positioning for your heals, the AoE heals you do are not substantial enough to be seriously needed.


Timothy the Savior - Overall score 16/20
Human (0.5) , Unexpected Base Class (1), Combo 3 different class abilities (2), and no cheese (1)
Another healer - I personally think that healer is an underused class and needs to be loved more by builders! I see a few healing combos, complete with a follow up extra action from WRT to get an additional effect going.
Tier 3 (2) and three out of combat / RP abilities (1.5)
You are a high level martial adept, but lack the sheer power of a full caster class on the T2 or T1 line, thus you are tier 3. OoC you are a healer, have maneuvers, and act as a party face.

2 base classes (2) and meeting prerequisites naturally (2)
Using 2 base classes will be simpler in the long run!

2 abilities of the PrC used in combat (2) and able to use a conjuration healing spell to heal a large amount on multiple subjects at a distance with little action required (2)
Unlike others, you go for RKV 7 - which means you only really get 2 class abilities. You can get your major heal off with DMM quicken - no action emergency heal, nobody dies (from damage).


Evan Cleansedhand - Overall score 16/20
Human (0.5) , Unexpected Base Class (1), Combo 3 different class abilities (2), and no cheese (1)
Going straight for marital adept eh? And monk on top of that. Between your 4 base classes you can get an easy combo with all your different maneuvers and stances, while unarmed.
Tier 3 (2) and four out of combat / RP abilities (2)
You are a high level martial adept, and have high level spell power, but your PrC just can't cut it with other casters, thus you are low tier 3. OoC you are a healer, have maneuvers, spells, and act as a party face.

4 base classes (1) and meeting prerequisites naturally (2)
If we wanted versatile martial adepts, we got you. OTOH, I think 4 base classes is too much, you had to put monk in for the heck of it? (Actually monk provides a huge favor to the build with the extra feats and being able to do subdual damage at no penalty).

3 abilities of the PrC used in combat (3) and able to use a conjuration healing spell to heal a large amount on multiple subjects at a distance (1.5)
RKV 10, enough said. You can get your major heal off with a standard action - you instead do DMM persistant for all day party buffs, which is OK, but isn't quite on par with what we want from battle healing.


Mr. Margrave - Overall score 15.5/20
Human (0.5) , Unexpected Base Class (1), Combo 2 different class abilities (1), and no cheese (1)
Wow, only 1 Base class! That in it self is original. I can only see combos that crusader can set off by itself and with the help of RKV.
Tier 3 (2) and three out of combat / RP abilities (1.5)
You are a high level martial adept, and have high level spells, thus you are high tier 3. OoC you are a healer, have maneuvers, spell, but I see no ability to be a skill monkey or party face.

2 base classes (2) and meeting prerequisites naturally (2)
The only build with 1 base class.

3 abilities of the PrC used in combat (3) and able to use a conjuration healing spell to heal a large amount on a single target by touch (0.5)
RKV 10, like most of the other builds. Cure critical wounds, when buffed will meet my minimum qualifications, but what exactly are you going to accomplish healing only 40 HP with a standard action, sure you can do more with WRT, but you could be doing something much better. This is more like a tourniquet than a full heal.


The fist of Wee Jass - Overall score 17/20 (yes there is turning in this class - its from the mind's eye article)
An Abberation (1) , Unexpected Base Class (1), Combo 3 different class abilities (2), and no cheese (1)
Two base classes, but one is psionics! I can only see psi combos combined with stances and manuevers.
Tier 3 (2) and three out of combat / RP abilities (1.5)
You are a high level martial adept, and have some spells (and psionics), thus you are mid tier 3. OoC you are a healer, have maneuvers, and some spells but it is dubious that you can be the party face or the skill monkey.

2 base classes (2) and meeting prerequisites naturally (2)
It was a great idea to use an ACF from minds eye! That sygian path saves you from using tricky business to get your turns!

3 abilities of the PrC used in combat (3) and able to use a conjuration healing spell to heal a large amount on a several targets by range (1.5)
RKV 10, like most of the other builds. Mass Heal does well for you, but I can't believe you didn't go meta-magic quicken to make healing a non-issue.


Looks like a few are tied and others are close in total value despite having different scores. Maybe we need a 5th category next time because of this?

Afterthoughts - I liked all of the builds. A few completely met the goal of making healing doable in combat, with one actually getting to tier 2 in power. Only two used different races. I'm also happy to see healer get some love. I personally thought more people would go for the combat medic route. I also thought people would be gutsy and go divine + arcane casting with warweaver support. I saw so many martial adept focused builds though, and its hard to differentiate between martial adepts since they are fairly multiclass friendly (the point of ToB was to make melee / phys more friendly to multiclassing). I'm glad only one tried a rebuild - and no builds used nightsticks! I was surprised to not see dread necromancer, and I was also surprised nobody picked up Sacred Exorcist to get thier turns (could have made an arcane caster with it.

As for the build I enjoyed the most - regardless of rank, Ravima of Divided Faiths - for the pure integration of both the secret ingredient and making heals doable in combat. This is what a paladin should have been!

Thank you all for these fantastic builds.

Alas my Archivist 3 / Wizard 3 / Swordsage 1 / Sacred Exorcist 1 / Warweaver 5 / RKV / Mystic Thuerge build never panned out.

[justiceforall]

Forgive my ignorance, but I thought


Knight of the Raven

was from Ravenloft, and therefore considered third party and unusable?

Is there a quirk of the books I'm missing here?

[sakuuya]

Forgive my ignorance, but I thought


Knight of the Raven

was from Ravenloft, and therefore considered third party and unusable?

Is there a quirk of the books I'm missing here?

It's from the 3.5 update of Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, an official WotC product. It's not related to the 3rd-party Ravenloft supplements, confusingly enough.

[Muggins]

Indeed. It is the same deal as the Rokugan books, of which only Oriental Adventures is considered valid material.

As for scrapped builds, I was really thinking about submitting a crazy cat lady. She was a Tibbit, and her build was something like Druid 6/Death Delver 3/Crusader 1/RKV 10. Worshipper of Malar, she'd enter a city at night and slaughter its inhabitants using augmented, greenbound summoned cats.
Unfortunately, it became more of a minionmancer build than a healer build. There was also the matter that the common housecat was not a valid animal companion, and could only be gained as a familiar or mundane pet. I just couldn't find a way to work the other ingredient in there.


In other news:
Barring any interruptions or sudden dilemmas, I believe I will be judging this round. This will be my first time attempting such a thing. I shall provide my criteria Soon.

[Darkcouch]

Just as I suspected all of the components to the build I was thinking about were used by at least 2 other people. I was going to go Crusader 6/Deathdelver 2/ Divine Crusader 1/Ruby Knight 1/Contemplative 1/RKV +9. Not at all elegant and I couldn't think of a compelling reason to use daggers as my main weapon, but I get 9th in death and healing domain spells and a 9th a level maneuver so I can pick up Strike of Righteous Vitality.

[Telonius]

Scrapped build: didn't get to fully develop this in time, but ... Divine Bard 4/Crusader1/Death Delver1/RKV10/ (something - more Divine Bard?)4. Select several healing spells for Bard's spells known.

[Kazudo]

So far we've got 3 entries tied for third! As always, thanks for a swift judging NoAC. Once we have those two other judgings in, we'll have a good firat standings.

[vhfforever]

My scrapped build was some mix of Paladin, Shadowbane Inquisitor, Crusader, and RVK; but I just didn't have time to put it all down and lay it out into the proper formatting.

[Seerow]

I was wanting some way to make this work with Binder. The vestige that lets you use Turn Undead with a 4 round cooldown makes for excellent RKV ability fuel, and RKV only actually requires Turn Undead to enter, not divine casting. So it would have been something like Binder5-9/Crusader1-5/RKV10. But I couldn't figure out how to make it work and still get any sort of meaningful healing. Even dropping to Binder5/Crusader1 left 4 levels for some divine caster class, for caster level 12, barely snagging Heal. Not very good.

Post reveal I realize I probably could have worked in Divine Crusader and still wound up with 9th level spells, possibly even with enough room left over for a dip into another class for more turn undead uses.

Edit: I also considered a build going Elf Warblade into Eternal Blade to get the Devoted Spirit maneuvers to qualify for RKV... only Eternal Blade's first stance didn't come online until level 5, which meant losing out on far too much RKV to be worthwhile even for the gimmick. It would have been more efficient to dip Fighter for 2 levels and pick up Martial Study and Martial Stance.

[NoACWarrior]

I was wanting some way to make this work with Binder. The vestige that lets you use Turn Undead with a 4 round cooldown makes for excellent RKV ability fuel, and RKV only actually requires Turn Undead to enter, not divine casting. So it would have been something like Binder5-9/Crusader1-5/RKV10. But I couldn't figure out how to make it work and still get any sort of meaningful healing. Even dropping to Binder5/Crusader1 left 4 levels for some divine caster class, for caster level 12, barely snagging Heal. Not very good.

Post reveal I realize I probably could have worked in Divine Crusader and still wound up with 9th level spells, possibly even with enough room left over for a dip into another class for more turn undead uses.

Edit: I also considered a build going Elf Warblade into Eternal Blade to get the Devoted Spirit maneuvers to qualify for RKV... only Eternal Blade's first stance didn't come online until level 5, which meant losing out on far too much RKV to be worthwhile even for the gimmick. It would have been more efficient to dip Fighter for 2 levels and pick up Martial Study and Martial Stance.

I considered fitting it in my dual casting as well - but I couldn't get 9th level spells in arcane side so I lost interest in trying to make my basic build work.

The cool thing you can do with Tenab is get immunity to ability damage, drain, and enervation - and give everyone free OoC healing.

[Somensjev]

my build was going to be something like a human healer2/crusader5/soldier of light 3/rkv10

i was trying to make an exalted build that used the vows, and still have an interesting, but viable character, it wasn't ending well :smallsigh:

it was pretty fun trying to fit all of it though, hopefully i can submit something next round

[Jeff the Green]

I was wanting some way to make this work with Binder. The vestige that lets you use Turn Undead with a 4 round cooldown makes for excellent RKV ability fuel, and RKV only actually requires Turn Undead to enter, not divine casting. So it would have been something like Binder5-9/Crusader1-5/RKV10. But I couldn't figure out how to make it work and still get any sort of meaningful healing. Even dropping to Binder5/Crusader1 left 4 levels for some divine caster class, for caster level 12, barely snagging Heal. Not very good.

Post reveal I realize I probably could have worked in Divine Crusader and still wound up with 9th level spells, possibly even with enough room left over for a dip into another class for more turn undead uses.

Edit: I also considered a build going Elf Warblade into Eternal Blade to get the Devoted Spirit maneuvers to qualify for RKV... only Eternal Blade's first stance didn't come online until level 5, which meant losing out on far too much RKV to be worthwhile even for the gimmick. It would have been more efficient to dip Fighter for 2 levels and pick up Martial Study and Martial Stance.

Actually, I figured one out. I'm not on my main computer right now, but it was something like Binder 5/Crusader 1/Knight of the Sacred Seal 3/Divine Crusader 1/RKV 10. I abandoned it because I thought one turn undead every four rounds wasn't spammable enough and I couldn't figure out a way to get a regular turn pool without dipping a completely random class.

The one I abandoned it for was Sha'ir 4/Crusader 2/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 1/RKV 7. A really cool build because it's pretty much impossible to get Abjurant Champion and RKV on the same build and they have the cool synergy of autoquicken+useful swift spells+lots and lots of swift actions. And it would have literally been incapable of casting healing spells. :smallannoyed:

[Kazudo]

Man, those are some promising build stubs.

In other news, I hope Kuulv is doing ok :smalleek:

But we currently have one complete judging, with more on the way!

[dysprosium]

It's an interesting crop indeed.

I'm surprised at the lack of Archivist and Sacred Exorcist! My abandoned build was Archivist 7/Sacred Exorcist 3/Crusader 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 9.

[Muggins]

I feel like I'm doing something wrong because everybody's getting terrible scores. Judging is hard. :smallmad:

[dysprosium]

I feel like I'm doing something wrong because everybody's getting terrible scores. Judging is hard. :smallmad:

Judging is hard. Everyone has a different judging metric. Some are more forgiving than others. As long as your judging is consistent throughout there really should not be a problem.

[Kazudo]

I recall one (mock) judging in ICOCitP where someone judged the group based on whether or not they used Gnome Giant Slayer. It wasn't even the SI.

[Muggins]

I recall Tim Proctor pulling a similar stunt a couple of rounds ago. It's not his fault that nobody had levels in Slime Lord. :smallamused:

[Kazudo]

Ah! That was the one I was trying to recall!

[Kuulvheysoon]

Well, I've got to say - I'm doing better than I thought that I would,

[PraxisVetli]

I was wanting some way to make this work with Binder. The vestige that lets you use Turn Undead with a 4 round cooldown makes for excellent RKV ability fuel, and RKV only actually requires Turn Undead to enter, not divine casting. So it would have been something like Binder5-9/Crusader1-5/RKV10. But I couldn't figure out how to make it work and still get any sort of meaningful healing. Even dropping to Binder5/Crusader1 left 4 levels for some divine caster class, for caster level 12, barely snagging Heal. Not very good.

Post reveal I realize I probably could have worked in Divine Crusader and still wound up with 9th level spells, possibly even with enough room left over for a dip into another class for more turn undead uses.

Edit: I also considered a build going Elf Warblade into Eternal Blade to get the Devoted Spirit maneuvers to qualify for RKV... only Eternal Blade's first stance didn't come online until level 5, which meant losing out on far too much RKV to be worthwhile even for the gimmick. It would have been more efficient to dip Fighter for 2 levels and pick up Martial Study and Martial Stance.

I was gonna do a spellstitched Necropolitan human, Binder7/Crusader1/Urpriest2/RKV9.
But couldn't find the time to write it up.

[Muggins]

Foreword: I will be using a baseline of 3/5 for all categories of judgement. Points will be added and subtracted as appropriate, and I encourage any and all disputes.

Originality
This section represents the relative freshness of a build. The use of original races, classes and feats to create a formidable identity of its own. That said, with a new coat of paint or with some extra seasoning, even a familiar dish can be seen as unique. The use of tried-and-tested abilities, skills and/or cheeses will earn penalties in this category.

Power
This section represents the strength and flexibility of the build. Competence must be balanced with flexibility, both inside and outside of combat. If one trick is removed from their repertoire, do they still function? Are they legitimate forces both on the battlefield and off?

Build Stability
This section represents the simplicity, elegance and direction of a build. Does it multiclass and dip its fingers into every pie of even tangential relevance, or does it wear its Sunday Best even to the Superbowl? Builds must fulfil the requirements of their classes, feats and talents, and they should strive for a straightforward method to their madness. Lastly, does the build abuse sections of the rules?

Use of Secret Ingredient
This section represents the use of the two chosen ingredients and the avoidance of the forbidden ingredient. The secret ingredients should be made the focus of the build, not tacked-on additions so that the build is a valid submission for the contest. Builds should qualify for prestige classes and feats, should justify their selections and must specialise as required by any other secret ingredients.

Now, on to the judging!


Ravima of Divided Faiths:
Paladin was an expected method of entry and your only unique class. Worse, you're a by-the-book Human. -1.0

The build possesses sufficient fluff for the purposes of this contest. +0

You achieve:
+17 BAB. +0.25
Competent HP and Saves. +0.25
8th level maneuvers. +0.25
9th level spells. +0.25

Flexibility outside of combat is lacking. You can heal, but you lack any social, sneaking or creative skills to speak of. -0.5

You have levels in 4 base classes, 3 of which are single-level dips. Colour me unimpressed. -0.25

You've got average ability scores across the board, and you never state where your ability score increases from levels are going. Worse, you require a +6 charisma item so that you can cast your combat-viable spells. Item dependency is bad. -0.5

You do not qualify for Divine Crusader. To do so, your alignment needs to match the alignment of your deity exactly - but Pelor is Neutral Good, and Wee Jas is Lawful Neutral. Heretic of the Faith does not save you from this.

You can grossly violate your deity code of conduct, but not your class alignment restriction, without risk of loss of spells or class abilities.
Emphasis mine. This does not disqualify you from Ruby Knight Vindicator, but it does remove your access to any Conjuration [Healing] spells. -1.0

Ruby Knight Vindicator:
You take all levels of the prestige class, and it is is a logical progression from your previous classes. +0.5
You ignore Armoured Stealth, but Divine Recovery, Impetus and Fury are all used in the build provided. +0.5

Conjuration [Healing]
You do not possess any Conjuration [Healing] spells due to not qualifying for Divine Crusader. Automatic failure. -3.0


Steven the Grim:
Healer was an expected method of entry and your only unique class. Worse, you're a by-the-book Human. -1.0

The build lacks any fluff whatsoever, resulting in a poorly-presented dish. -0.25

You achieve:
+18 BAB. +0.25
Competent HP and Saves. +0.25
8th level maneuvers. +0.25
6th level spells. +0

Heal, diplomacy and Sense Motive give you numerous ways to be of use outside of combat, and Touch of Healing lets you mend up half of your teammates' wounds between fights. +0.5

You have levels in 3 base classes, 1 of which is a single-level dip. I was hoping for better. +0

You fail to provide references for any of your classes or feats beyond the Knight of the Raven prestige class. -0.25

Your current build fails to qualify for the Ruby Knight Vindicator prestige class. You take a 4th rank in Ride at level 4, but you can only have 2 ranks in a cross-class skill at level 4. While this can be solved by shuffling it around with a point in Tumble at level 5, the build which has been presented is invalid. -0.25
Revoked: Hide is a class skill for Swordsages. +0

Your lack of fluff prevents you from achieving the Special requirement of the Knight of the Raven prestige class. It's like forgetting to peel the potato, but with DnD. -0.5

Ruby Knight Vindicator:
You take all levels of the prestige class, and it is is a logical progression from your previous classes. +0.5
You ignore Armoured Stealth, but Divine Recovery, Impetus and Fury are all used in the build provided. +0.5

Conjuration [Healing]
You possess Conjuration [Healing] spells. +0.25
You are capable of casting spells in the midst of combat. +0.25
You have a caster level of 16, increasing to 17 when you cast Conjuration [Healing] spells. This is enough to hit the caster level cap on most Cure spells, and your Heal spells are no pushover. +0.25
You have given due emphasis to Conjuration [Healing] spells through the use of Practiced Spellcaster, Augment Healing and Healing Hands. +0.25
You are restricted to 6th level spells and only have a few of such spells per day. You may have difficulty healing the damage caused by an equal-CR threat. -0.25


Raphaella d'Jorasco, Mercy Knight:
Water Halfling, Spirit Shaman and Prestige Paladin made for a unique dish. +1.0

The build possesses sufficient fluff for the purposes of this contest. +0

You resort to the use of Prestige Paladin, Battle Blessing and Ruby Knight vindicator. This combination is a sample of well-known cheese. -0.5

You achieve:
+18 BAB. +0.25
Competent HP and Saves. +0.25
8th level maneuvers. +0.25
8th level spells from a large and flexible list. +0.5

Your skills outside of combat are lacking, to the point of being a wholly combat-centric character. -0.5

You have mixed the Ravenloft and Eberron campaign settings, thus earning yourself a deduction in elegance. -0.25
Expedition to Castle Ravenloft has an Eberron adaptation, in which it is a location rather than a separate campaign setting. +0

You have levels in 2 base classes, 1 of which is a single-level dip. It was also necessary for entry into Ruby Knight Vindicator. +0.25

Your use of flaws, traits and retraining rules earn you additional deductions here. -1.0

Your lacking fluff prevents you from achieving the Special requirement of the Knight of the Raven prestige class. She doesn't even meet with any members of the order. -0.5

You take an extra skill point at levels 3 and 5. If we assume these to be just extra ranks in UMD, then this doesn't affect your build and doesn't disqualify you from anything. However, it is still an error which should not be present and results in an illegal build. -0.25

Ruby Knight Vindicator:
You take all levels of the prestige class, and it is is a logical progression from your previous classes. +0.5
You ignore Armoured Stealth, but Divine Recovery, Impetus and Fury are all used in the build provided. +0.5

Conjuration [Healing]
You possess Conjuration [Healing] spells. +0.25
You do not have enough points in Concentration to cast spells in the midst of combat, resulting in a playstyle clash with your maneuvers and stances. -0.25
You have a caster level of 15. This is enough to hit the caster level cap on most Cure spells, and your Heal spells are no pushover. +0.25
You have placed no emphasis on Conjuration [Healing] spells beyond the powers of your Dragonmark, and most of its spells can already be found on your spell list. Greater emphasis is placed on her Swift paladin spells and general gishery. +0
You have access toþ€ñ:þÈy¶}åÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿ@
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D¨f·õÆPS¢r’1PA:rÓctions , compensating for your lack of Mass Heal. I'm calling this a wash. +0


Timothy the Saviour:
Healer was an expected method of entry, as was Combat Medic. Worse, you're a by-the-book Human. -1.0

The build possesses sufficient fluff for the purposes of this contest. +0

You achieve:
+15 BAB. +0
Competent HP and Saves. +0.25
7th level maneuvers. +0.25
8th level spells. +0.25

Your viability outside of combat is limited to healing, as it is the only ability which you have presented. He might've made a reasonable diplomancer too, but I guess we'll never know. +0


You have levels in 2 base classes, 1 of which is a single-level dip. It was also necessary for entry into Ruby Knight vindicator. +0.25

You fail to provide references for any of your classes or feats. -0.25

You do not provide a table or list of your known maneuvers. -0.25
You do not select any skills for levels 6-20. -0.25
You list 6 stat increases: +1 Strength, +4 Wisdom and +1 Charisma. Naturally, you should only have 5. -0.25

Your lack of fluff prevents you from achieving the Special requirement of the Knight of the Raven prestige class.-0.5

Ruby Knight Vindicator:
You do not fulfill the requirements for the Ruby Knight Vindicator prestige class due to lacking faith in any deities. Automatic failure. -3.0

Conjuration [Healing]
You possess Conjuration [Healing] spells. +0.25
You lack the points in Concentration needed to cast your spells in the midst of combat, resulting in a playstyle clash with your maneuvers and stances. Combat Casting and Defensive Casting help to remedy this deficiency somewhat. +0
You have a caster level of 20. This is more than enough to hit the caster level cap on most Cure spells, and your Heal spells are devastating. +0.25
You have given due emphasis to Conjuration [Healing] spells through the use of Practiced Spellcaster, Healing Hands and Healing Kickers. +0.25
You have access to 9th level spells, virtually every one of which is a Conjuration [Healing] spell. You also have plenty of spell slots and spontaneous heals. +0.25


Evan Cleansedhand:
Monk and Apostle of Peace were decidedly unexpected. While your other elements could be found elsewhere, you still get Gusto Points for surprising me. +0.5

The build possesses outstanding fluff, possessing a sense of character. +0.25

You achieve:
+14 BAB. +0
Competent HP and Saves. +0.25
9th 8th level maneuvers. +0.25
9th level spells. +0.25
Wait, what? Double ninths? +0.25

You're an orator, a keen-eyes diplomancer whose sermons reach out to Wee Jas herself. You have your uses outside of combat, even before you begin binding Solars. +0.5

You have levels in 4 base classes, 2 of which are single-level dips. -0.25

Vows are tricky, and there's no way around that. Other players may find them obstructive, but I think you've adequately explained yourself. +0

You do not qualify for the Knight of the Red Falcon feat. You lack levels in Cleric, Fighter or Paladin, and I can find nothing to suggest that Evan is a devout of the Red Knight. -0.5

Edit: You do not qualify for a number of maneuvers and stances. The initiator level of multiclassed martial adepts is calculated separately; for example, at level 20, you have IL 15.5 for Crusader, IL 15.5 for Swordsage and IL 14.5 for Warblade. This is a problem which persists throughout your build and locks you out of a few of your selections, some of which are core to your build. These are:
Rabid Wolf Strike(2.5), Baffling Defense(2.5), Shadow Jaunt(2.5), Cloak of Deception(2.5), White Raven Tactics(6.5), War Master's Charge(15.5), Time Stands Still(16). Deduction: -0.5

Ruby Knight Vindicator:
You take all levels of the prestige class, and it is is a logical progression from your previous classes. +0.5
You ignore Armoured Stealth, but Divine Recovery, Impetus and Fury are all used in the build provided. +0.5
However, you clearly prefer the use of Divine Metamagic: Persist to the use of these abilities. -0.25

Conjuration [Healing]
You possess Conjuration [Healing] spells. +0.25
You are capable of casting spells in the midst of combat. +0.25
You have a caster level of 10. As a result, you're not hitting the caps on most of your Cure spells and your uses of Heal aren't up to snuff. -0.25
You have access to 9th level spells, even if they are from a mediocre list and if you can't cast the ones that require materials or foci. These include the Cure line, Restorations, Heal and Mass Heal. +0.25
You place no emphasis on your Conjuration [Healing] spells; based on your proposed playstyle, I'd even suggest that they're just a sidenote. Rather than satisfying this secret ingredient, you'd much rather be directing swarms of bound outsiders at your enemies. -0.25


Mr. Margrave:
You take the straightforward approach. -0.5

The build possesses outstanding fluff, possessing a sense of character. +0.25

You achieve:
+19 BAB. +0.25
Competent HP and Saves. +0.25
9th level maneuvers. +0.25
4th level spells from a tiny list. +0

Your half-competent sneaking skills may find some narrow use, and intimidate can sometimes be useful. You can also fix up your buddies so they're at least at half HP before the start of a fight, but that's about it. +0.25

You only use one base class and (arguably) have no dipping, resulting in a clean build. It's also rather standard and bland, but that's the cost of an elegant dish. +0.25

The Player's Handbook provies the following definition for Damage:

A decrease in hit points, an ability score, or other aspects of a character caused by an injury, illness or magical effect.
I see no foul with your interpretation, but it may not fly in some groups. -0.25

Ruby Knight Vindicator:
You take all levels of the prestige class, and it is is a logical progression from your previous classes. +0.5
You found a use for Armoured Stealth! Divine Recovery, Impetus and Fury are also used in the build provided. +0.75

Conjuration [Healing]
You possess Conjuration [Healing] spells. +0.25
You are capable of casting spells in the midst of combat. +0.25
You have a caster level of 10. As a result, you're not hitting the caps on most of your Cure spells. +0
You only have access to 4th level spells, and you never get access to Heal or Greater Restoration (the big lifters of Conjuration [Healing] spells). You never get the Mass versions of your healing spells either. -0.25
Your Conjuration [Healing] spells feel like an afterthought, failing to mesh well with the rest of your build. The only job you're good at is damage control after the end of a combat, and you don't have many spell slots to begin with. -0.25


The Fist of Wee Jas:
I certainly wasn't expecting a daelkyr half-blood, nor psionics. You don't really go anywhere with either, though. +0.5

The build possesses sufficient fluff for the purposes of this contest. +0

You achieve:
+18 BAB. +0.25
Competent HP and Saves. +0.25
9th level maneuvers. +0.25
9th level spells (Kinda). +0
1st level power: Mind Thrust. Practically useless. +0

Outside of combat, the only thing you have going for you are some ranks in Intimidate. -0.25

You have mixed the Eberron and Forgotten Realms campaign settings, thus earning yourself a deduction in elegance. -0.25

You have levels in 2 base classes, 1 of which is a single-level dip. It was also necessary for entry into Ruby Knight Vindicator. [b]%°œô€øÿÿðÃd
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D¨f·ã˜PmqR¸a0œ¯PA:o‡lcasting or a code of conduct. -0.5

Secondly: Heretic of the Faith doesn't work that way.

If you have access to domains, you can exchange any one domain you have already selected for another domain outside those normally available to your faith.
You take this feat at level 6, without access to any domains; this invalidates the first section. You then attempt to change a domain you get after taking the feat, even though Heretic of the Domain can only change a domain which you already possess. As a result, you do not have access to the Healing domain. -0.5

Ruby Knight Vindicator:
You take all levels of the prestige class, and it is is a logical progression from your previous classes. +0.5
You ignore Armoured Stealth and Divine Impetus. You do note the uses of Divine Recovery, and Divine Fury meshes nicely with Law Devotion. +0.25

Conjuration [Healing]
As you do not have access to the Healing domain, you lack any Conjuration [Healing] spells. Automatic failure. -3.0

[Ikeren]

Alas my Archivist 3 / Wizard 3 / Swordsage 1 / Sacred Exorcist 1 / Warweaver 5 / RKV / Mystic Thuerge build never panned out.

I would have loved to see this. Balancing out the RKV/MT levels would have been brutal: Solve with Precocious apprentice cheese?

Wizard1/Archivist3/Mystic Theurge 4/Sacred Exorcist 1/Swordsage 1/War Weaver 5/RKV 5

You finish with Wizard10 and Archivist12...

I just don't think there are enough levels to mix MT, Warweaver, and RKV.

[Muggins]

I would have loved to see this. Balancing out the RKV/MT levels would have been brutal: Solve with Precocious apprentice cheese?

Wizard1/Archivist3/Mystic Theurge 4/Sacred Exorcist 1/Swordsage 1/War Weaver 5/RKV 5

You finish with Wizard10 and Archivist12...

I just don't think there are enough levels to mix MT, Warweaver, and RKV.
A Sha'ir might work for that purpose, what with being both arcane and divine spellcasters.

[Kazudo]

Every time I see or do one of these competitions I secretly hope that someone is going to take it to the cheesiest extreme. I think episode 3 is going to be a "Special Edition" episode with some kind of variant to the rules, then we'll get back to regularly scheduled programming.

[Muggins]

What about a 5-level prestige class? What about two 5-level prestige classes? :smallwink:

With two secret ingredients and one forbidden ingredient, I think it might just be possible. I also look forward to having creatures with the [Human] subtype as one such forbidden ingredient.

[Kazudo]

It's a thought. That's the idea, this game is supposed to be a bit more freeform.

Oh Muggins, one quick dispute for you.



Steven the Grim does qualify for RKV. The Able Learner feat (taken at level 1) allows you to spend one skill point per rank, even if it's cross-class. Hide is on the Swordsage's class skill list, which means the maximum number of ranks is character level + 3. (At level 4, that makes 7).

[Rakaydos]

If I had known about binder (I dont have that book) I might have tried a build that went for Binder5/Something 1/Crusader5/RKV 9 with some kind of self-damaging buff, it spams Strike of Rightius Vitality, getting the effects of Heal (a conjuration: Healing spell) without any caster levels at all.

[Seerow]

If I had known about binder (I dont have that book) I might have tried a build that went for Binder5/Something 1/Crusader5/RKV 9 with some kind of self-damaging buff, it spams Strike of Rightius Vitality, getting the effects of Heal (a conjuration: Healing spell) without any caster levels at all.

A smart way could have been pulling the Idiot Cruader trick, going Warblade4/Crusader1, so the Crusader ends up having Strike of Righteous Vitality (plus the other Healing devoted spirit strikes, because why not?) available every round, while you have all of your other maneuvers over on Warblade.

Would have been interesting at least, seeing an RKV without any casting at all.

[Muggins]

Steven the Grim does qualify for RKV. The Able Learner feat (taken at level 1) allows you to spend one skill point per rank, even if it's cross-class. Hide is on the Swordsage's class skill list, which means the maximum number of ranks is character level + 3. (At level 4, that makes 7).
Good catch. The erroneous -0.25 penalty has been removed from Steven's Build Stability section.

[Kazudo]

And one more for ya Muggins. I personally think it's great we're already in the disputes phase for a handful of judges. This judging criteria seems to go faster, so far, than the other OCs.



The chair specifically allowed for builds to follow faiths other than Wee-Jas --- I was trying to fluff it as close to accurate as possible --- though you're correct I misread the heretics of the faith feat. I intended to refluff everything for Heironius.

[NoACWarrior]

And one more for ya Muggins. I personally think it's great we're already in the disputes phase for a handful of judges. This judging criteria seems to go faster, so far, than the other OCs.

For that one - if the contestant also questions my score on that - is the fact that the feat doesn't gran't EXACTLY what he/she wants. But I think I instead gave a mark down for cheese. Its rather cheesy to refluff because you can't meet the requirements.

Also muggins, the fist of wee jas build doesn't lack conjuration healing spells - it has the whole domain worth of it.

[Kazudo]

I typically have a soft spot for prerequisites that require campaign setting specific things, like swearing fealty to a Greyhawk deity or joining an Eberron-specific group or speaking to a Faerun-specific individual.

However, I can see that being an issue for Build Stability due to the nature of the category.

[Muggins]

The chair specifically allowed for builds to follow faiths other than Wee-Jas --- I was trying to fluff it as close to accurate as possible --- though you're correct I misread the heretics of the faith feat. I intended to refluff everything for Heironius.
You're correct that the chairman allowed for faith variants. However, your build attempts no such thing. Ravima is repeatedly stated to be a follower of Wee Jas and Pelor, and Heironeous isn't mentioned once. Seems funny for someone who supposedly worships him as a Divine Crusader. Judgment stands.


For that one - if the contestant also questions my score on that - is the fact that the feat doesn't gran't EXACTLY what he/she wants. But I think I instead gave a mark down for cheese. Its rather cheesy to refluff because you can't meet the requirements.

Also muggins, the fist of wee jas build doesn't lack conjuration healing spells - it has the whole domain worth of it.
Actually, he doesn't possess the Healing domain. Wee Jas doesn't offer it, and he's used an incorrect reading of the Heretic of the Faith feat in order to obtain it. As a result, his build is both illegal and insufficient for the purposes of this contest.
Edit: Not to mention that he doesn't even qualify for Heretic of the Faith when he takes it.


I typically have a soft spot for prerequisites that require campaign setting specific things, like swearing fealty to a Greyhawk deity or joining an Eberron-specific group or speaking to a Faerun-specific individual.

However, I can see that being an issue for Build Stability due to the nature of the category.
Campaign settings can provide easy flavour. It only becomes a problem when a character somehow begins to exist between two realities at once. :smallconfused:

[Deadline]

So barring disputes, it looks like this is how everything shakes out with the two judges thus far:



Name of Build
Judge #1 Score
Judge #2 Score
Total Score
Avg Score


Evan Cleansedhand
16
14.75
30.75
15.375


Mr. Margrave
15.5
14.25
29.75
14.875


Raphaella d'Jorasco
16
12.5
28.5
14.25


Steven the Grim
15
12.5
27.5
13.75


The Fist of Wee Jas
17
10
27
13.5


Timothy the Savior
16
8.5
24.5
12.25


Ravima of Divided Faiths
15.5
8.25
23.75
11.75

[NoACWarrior]

Actually, he doesn't possess the Healing domain. Wee Jas doesn't offer it, and he's used an incorrect reading of the Heretic of the Faith feat in order to obtain it. As a result, his build is both illegal and insufficient for the purposes of this contest.
Edit: Not to mention that he doesn't even qualify for Heretic of the Faith when he takes it.


Good point / find! As for the healing domain, it is provided by heritic of the faith, but since HotF is taken BEFORE divine crusader, the choice of the healing domain can't be made. UNLESS a rebuild quest was done to change the choice of the domain for which the level 20 character now has a domain to qualify. The last issue is the prerequisite - I find that it is an issue of commas, where the prerequisites could be read as "Divine spellcasting" or "code of conduct" or "patron deity". If this was the assumption made by the builder, then by all means, it is possible to enter so long as the character worships said deity. Both of the above are OK in my book - in that the build qualifies for the feat and then re-chooses the domain with a rebuild quest.

But back to Rav - since what you said has validity and I really should have looked at that closer. So I ruled that using HotF could be refluffed - I instead meant that it would be modified so that instead of the word cleric - it would be expanded to all other classes (just a generous RAI ruling I took points away for cheese). Entry into Divine crusader CAN be achieved with a LG deity like hieroneous - then reneging on your faith, losing your abilities, gaining 1 level in whatever, taking a feat, and doing a rebuild quest. This just seems like a normal DnD campaign to me - things happen, you use rebuild quests to fix it. When Rav does the rebuild she/he/it learns that it wants to worship wee jas, and also has the right feat to do so without changing alignment.

This is my take on things that you brought up which I didn't originally think about. But the fact that they didn't type the above is kind of suspicious that it was a gray area that wasn't fully thought out.

[Muggins]

The last issue is the prerequisite - I find that it is an issue of commas, where the prerequisites could be read as "Divine spellcasting" or "code of conduct" or "patron deity". If this was the assumption made by the builder, then by all means, it is possible to enter so long as the character worships said deity. Both of the above are OK in my book - in that the build qualifies for the feat and then re-chooses the domain with a rebuild quest.
Actually, the prerequisite doesn't contain any commas at all.

Prerequisite: Patron deity and either divine spellcasting ability or code of conduct class ability.
The correct reading is therefore: Patron Deity AND (Divine Spellcasting OR Code of Conduct).


But back to Rav - since what you said has validity and I really should have looked at that closer. So I ruled that using HotF could be refluffed - I instead meant that it would be modified so that instead of the word cleric - it would be expanded to all other classes (just a generous RAI ruling I took points away for cheese).
Power of Faerun was first printed in 2006. Complete Divine was first printed in 2004. If they wanted the class ability to pertain to multiple classes, they could have used the term "divine spellcasting class" rather than "cleric."


Entry into Divine crusader CAN be achieved with a LG deity like hieroneous - then reneging on your faith, losing your abilities, gaining 1 level in whatever, taking a feat, and doing a rebuild quest. This just seems like a normal DnD campaign to me - things happen, you use rebuild quests to fix it. When Rav does the rebuild she/he/it learns that it wants to worship wee jas, and also has the right feat to do so without changing alignment.
That's great and all, except that there's the following passage from Complete Divine:

Ex-Divine Crusaders:
A divine crusader whose alignment changes to no longer match her chosen deity's alignment loses all divine crusader spells and abilities. She may not progress any farther in levels as a divine crusader. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see the atonement spell, page 201 of the Player's Handbook).
An ex-divine crusader cannot change her devotion to another deity in order to regain abilities and advancement potential. Once a crusader has failed one deity, no other deity trusts the character with these powers.
Emphasis mine. If he does change from Heironeous to Wee Jas, he loses access to all his Divine Crusader abilities and no longer possesses the Healing domain. Furthermore, the following text from Player's Handbook 2:

Feat Retraining: The Process:
You exchange one of the feats you previously selected for another feat. If the new feat has prerequisites, not only must your character meet them in his current state, but you must also be able to show that he met them at the time you chose the previous feat.
Regardless of whether or not the feat was retrained, he does not qualify for the feat when it is taken.


This is my take on things that you brought up which I didn't originally think about. But the fact that they didn't type the above is kind of suspicious that it was a gray area that wasn't fully thought out.
I'm judging the builds as they've been presented, to the best of my knowledge and skills. I don't consider it to be the judge's responsibility to choose a build's skill ranks or to hunt down its resources. I also believe that disputes are a way for contestants to justify their design choices and bring up flaws in a judge's scoring. Disputes are not a chance for contestants to add additional seasoning or to otherwise alter their presented builds, such as claiming that they worshipped an entirely different god than what is presented with no supporting evidence.

[Kazudo]

And actually I do agree. This will be a learning experience for some of our new competitors and judges for future competitions.

Beginning next time, I'll be writing out the opening post a bit better rather than hastily copy/pasting so that it can address not only a few lacking guidelines for judges (for other reasons, mind) but also a few other guidelines for the dispute process and submissions.

Anyone affected by this, please don't let it scare you off. This particular PO competition is still in its adolescence and is getting awkward smells, zits, and hair in places it didn't know it had places.

[Muggins]

After some reflection and mediation, I have revised some of my earlier judgings. Alterations have been made to the "fluff" portion of scoring. While this results in the highest possible originality score being 4.75/5, I believe this will sate some concerns over how "fluffy" and/or "flavourful" a build needs to be for the purposes of Junkyard Wars.

The resulting scores are as follows. I hope that Deadline doesn't mind me commandeering his well-crafted table.


Name of Build
Judge #1 Score
Judge #2 Score
Total Score
Avg Score


Evan Cleansedhand
16
14.5
30.5
15.25


Mr. Margrave
15.5
14
29.5
14.75


Raphaella d'Jorasco
16
12.5
28.5
14.25


Steven the Grim
15
12.75
27.75
13.875


The Fist of Wee Jas
17
10
27
13.5


Timothy the Savior
16
8.5
24.5
12.25


Ravima of Divided Faiths
15.5
8.75
24.25
12.125

[NoACWarrior]

Actually, the prerequisite doesn't contain any commas at all.

The correct reading is therefore: Patron Deity AND (Divine Spellcasting OR Code of Conduct).


Power of Faerun was first printed in 2006. Complete Divine was first printed in 2004. If they wanted the class ability to pertain to multiple classes, they could have used the term "divine spellcasting class" rather than "cleric."


That's great and all, except that there's the following passage from Complete Divine:

Emphasis mine. If he does change from Heironeous to Wee Jas, he loses access to all his Divine Crusader abilities and no longer possesses the Healing domain. Furthermore, the following text from Player's Handbook 2:

Regardless of whether or not the feat was retrained, he does not qualify for the feat when it is taken.


I'm judging the builds as they've been presented, to the best of my knowledge and skills. I don't consider it to be the judge's responsibility to choose a build's skill ranks or to hunt down its resources. I also believe that disputes are a way for contestants to justify their design choices and bring up flaws in a judge's scoring. Disputes are not a chance for contestants to add additional seasoning or to otherwise alter their presented builds, such as claiming that they worshiped an entirely different god than what is presented with no supporting evidence.

Ah, since I didn't dig the FR setting I never bothered to actually get the books, I just looked up the entry on another website which is known to have sometimes weird formatting for entries. Thanks for that reading.

As for the RAI for it, I allowed a different RAI than RAW with the inclusion of cheese - since when do you ever go to a different RAI unless it is for cheese.

For the issue with DC and the healing domain - people are using the healing domain provided by the feat, not by the class. A retrain of the class allows the user to repick choices, and even change their deity and sometimes alignment, but that wasn't mentioned very well in the build's passage which I gave the contestant the benefit of the doubt.

Given that this was an issue of sourcing the feat correctly - I would normally be more lenient. But your point that the feat was not able to be taken at that level deserves some recognition, I'll be adjusting my scores soon enough.

And lastly, while I enjoy the intricacies of reading and interpreting builds, fantasizing what each build can do, I do not enjoy having to come up with ways to justify a build's decision like I did previously, or search for how a decision was actually legal. The last build took me nearly an hour to figure out how the contestant got turning abilities with the divine mind class when they could have said up front - "using minds eye article to substitute in turning" - in an addendum of "cheese and ACF / choices". I think in the future we should make the addendum mandatory with a) race b) cheese choices c) ACFs d) choices by level e) deity and f) other vital stats if they apply.

[NoACWarrior]

Thanks Deadline for the table! I am altering Fist of WeeJas's score to reflect things seen in discussion - the stability drops by 2 full points to reflect that the feat prerequsites could never be met in the first place.

The rankings didn't change that much, just the raw scores.



Name of Build
Judge #1 Score
Judge #2 Score
Total Score
Avg Score


Evan Cleansedhand
16
14.5
30.5
15.25


Mr. Margrave
15.5
14
29.5
14.75


Raphaella d'Jorasco
16
12.5
28.5
14.25


Steven the Grim
15
12.75
27.75
13.875


The Fist of Wee Jas
15
10
25
12.5


Timothy the Savior
16
8.5
24.5
12.25


Ravima of Divided Faiths
15.5
8.75
24.25
12.125



Also, muggins what was your favorite build regardless of legality and / or score (I add that part because my favorite build has dubious legality)?

[Muggins]

I'm not sure who I'd give my honorable mention to. Among the four non-placing submissions, though, I'd probably give it to Timothy. Were this not a competition of both power and originality, his build would likely be the cleanest and closest to the two intended secret ingredients.



For the issue with DC and the healing domain - people are using the healing domain provided by the feat, not by the class. A retrain of the class allows the user to repick choices, and even change their deity and sometimes alignment, but that wasn't mentioned very well in the build's passage which I gave the contestant the benefit of the doubt.
We've actually got two separate issues here, both involving Heretic of the Faith to get the [Healing] domain on a Divine Crusader of Wee Jas. The first case is Ravima, who fails to qualify for Divine Crusader due to alignment conflicts. The second case is Fist, who fails to qualify for Heretic of the Faith due to lacking either divine spellcasting or a code of conduct. In both cases the result is a character who cannot cast any Conjuration [Healing] spells.

According to page 193 of the Player's Handbook II, retraining cannot be used to chance a character's deity. Furthermore, a Divine Crusader can never change their deity; doing so permanently forfeits their powers. Retraining is also incapable of changing alignment. For a complete, fixed table on what retraining can alter, see page 192 of the Player's Handbook II.


And lastly, while I enjoy the intricacies of reading and interpreting builds, fantasizing what each build can do, I do not enjoy having to come up with ways to justify a build's decision like I did previously, or search for how a decision was actually legal. The last build took me nearly an hour to figure out how the contestant got turning abilities with the divine mind class when they could have said up front - "using minds eye article to substitute in turning" - in an addendum of "cheese and ACF / choices". I think in the future we should make the addendum mandatory with a) race b) cheese choices c) ACFs d) choices by level e) deity and f) other vital stats if they apply.
Checking the List of Stuff (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1068066) or the List of Alternative Class Features (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1151316#338427906) would've produced an easy answer. Furthermore, Fist does actually reference the Mind's Eye article from which he gains the "Stygian Path" class feature on his build table. Maybe I'm just too well-versed in these things.

I will agree that it's nice to have these ACFs and race selections more clearly stated. We had a few builds which neglected to mention that they were human, the only indication of such being that they had two feats at level 1. It's not exactly a required component, though, and I'd hesitate to say anything like "one section of your build must contain all cheeses and ACFs, otherwise we'll punish you."

[Sian]

a flat unsorted Penalty for lacking (or having a halfbaked and incomplete) source table prehaps?

[NoACWarrior]

I'm not sure who I'd give my honorable mention to. Among the four non-placing submissions, though, I'd probably give it to Timothy. Were this not a competition of both power and originality, his build would likely be the cleanest and closest to the two intended secret ingredients.



We've actually got two separate issues here, both involving Heretic of the Faith to get the [Healing] domain on a Divine Crusader of Wee Jas. The first case is Ravima, who fails to qualify for Divine Crusader due to alignment conflicts. The second case is Fist, who fails to qualify for Heretic of the Faith due to lacking either divine spellcasting or a code of conduct. In both cases the result is a character who cannot cast any Conjuration [Healing] spells.

According to page 193 of the Player's Handbook II, retraining cannot be used to chance a character's deity. Furthermore, a Divine Crusader can never change their deity; doing so permanently forfeits their powers. Retraining is also incapable of changing alignment. For a complete, fixed table on what retraining can alter, see page 192 of the Player's Handbook II.


Checking the List of Stuff (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1068066) or the List of Alternative Class Features (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1151316#338427906) would've produced an easy answer. Furthermore, Fist does actually reference the Mind's Eye article from which he gains the "Stygian Path" class feature on his build table. Maybe I'm just too well-versed in these things.

I will agree that it's nice to have these ACFs and race selections more clearly stated. We had a few builds which neglected to mention that they were human, the only indication of such being that they had two feats at level 1. It's not exactly a required component, though, and I'd hesitate to say anything like "one section of your build must contain all cheeses and ACFs, otherwise we'll punish you."

ah the list of things! I was actually looking at it earlier too - I just didn't think to reference it for judging haha.

I'll agree with you that the two builds have seperate issues. But for Rav, retraining is a perfect opportunity to fix the issues caused by entering a PrC, losing the faith, finding Wee Jas, and picking up the feat. For the retrain - you'd instead REPLACE levels of DC with levels of DC matching that of your current deity. You'd still change your deity in game without a retrain. One issue I still see with Rav is the fact that the feat isn't taken immediately before DC, thus making it not possible to retrain into a DC focused on WJ. But at the same time its not possible to take HotF before DC to gain the healing domain. So basicly its a lose-lose. If you have to retrain to get your DC powers back, you can't have the different domain from HotF, otherwise you wouldn't be able to get into DC anyways.

I'm not saying that they have to have a section containing all the cheese / acf, I'm just asking that contestants provide it next time. I certainly didnt punish Fist for taking an hour to understand what was going on.

[WhamBamSam]

a flat unsorted Penalty for lacking (or having a halfbaked and incomplete) source table prehaps?I know some judges in Iron Chef penalize a lack of sources under Elegance. I'd think a judge would be within their rights to take points from Build Stability for lack of sources here if they were so inclined.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You see... and here I was going to go Bard with the ACF for massive bonuses to healing spells, tack on some turning with a PrC that grants (not advances) it, and then finish out with Crusader into RKV. If I had the feats left over, it would have gone into White Raven Song into... well... we all know where that ends up. However, being able to drop down 100+ points of healing per target out of a CLW:Mass is not too shabby.

The other option was Healer, but I found that Healer sucked even MORE than I had originally thought it had. While we did have a special dispensation from the Chair concerning alignment shenanigans, certain mechanics concerning the build never really gelled. The solution to that would have been the ACF from the D20SRD 'Spontaneous Divine', then picking up something like Sovereign Speaker from Faiths of Eberron for a whole boatload of domains that are then spontaneously cast from, but that would've likely ended up more 'stinky cheese' than Gouda.

[Muggins]

For the retrain - you'd instead REPLACE levels of DC with levels of DC matching that of your current deity. You'd still change your deity in game without a retrain.
Again, please look at the retrainin table in the Player's Handbook II and look at the Divine Crusader's entry in Complete Divine. You cannot change your class levels through retraining, as the only options are Class Feature, Feat, Language, Skill, Spell and Substitution Level. You cannot change your deity as a Divine Crusader, as this permanently loses your class abilities. Neither of the options you suggest are valid.

An ex-divine crusader cannot change her devotion to another deity in order to regain abilities and advancement potential. Once a crusader has failed one deity, no other deity trusts the character with these powers.
Oh well. I'll be dropping this now, since I I think it's been talked about plenty. Moving on..



You see... and here I was going to go Bard with the ACF for massive bonuses to healing spells, tack on some turning with a PrC that grants (not advances) it, and then finish out with Crusader into RKV. If I had the feats left over, it would have gone into White Raven Song into... well... we all know where that ends up. However, being able to drop down 100+ points of healing per target out of a CLW:Mass is not too shabby.
Impressive. I know there are a few feats and such which improve healing, so I'm sure it's possible. I'm actually quite surprised that nobody took Druid and Magic of the Land from Races of the Wild, but I suppose that could've been seen as the "easy" way out.


Is it time to start speculation on the next ingredient mix yet?

[NoACWarrior]

You see... and here I was going to go Bard with the ACF for massive bonuses to healing spells, tack on some turning with a PrC that grants (not advances) it, and then finish out with Crusader into RKV. If I had the feats left over, it would have gone into White Raven Song into... well... we all know where that ends up. However, being able to drop down 100+ points of healing per target out of a CLW:Mass is not too shabby.

The other option was Healer, but I found that Healer sucked even MORE than I had originally thought it had. While we did have a special dispensation from the Chair concerning alignment shenanigans, certain mechanics concerning the build never really gelled. The solution to that would have been the ACF from the D20SRD 'Spontaneous Divine', then picking up something like Sovereign Speaker from Faiths of Eberron for a whole boatload of domains that are then spontaneously cast from, but that would've likely ended up more 'stinky cheese' than Gouda.

I looked up healing hymn and found out that the errata limits the bonus to the additional healing of the spell provided by caster level. A shame really, since you could do a cure light wounds at 20th level for 28 base +1d8 healed without the errata. Is there something I am missing?


Again, please look at the retrainin table in the Player's Handbook II and look at the Divine Crusader's entry in Complete Divine. You cannot change your class levels through retraining, as the only options are Class Feature, Feat, Language, Skill, Spell and Substitution Level. You cannot change your deity as a Divine Crusader, as this permanently loses your class abilities. Neither of the options you suggest are valid.

Oh well. I'll be dropping this now, since I I think it's been talked about plenty. Moving on..

Impressive. I know there are a few feats and such which improve healing, so I'm sure it's possible. I'm actually quite surprised that nobody took Druid and Magic of the Land from Races of the Wild, but I suppose that could've been seen as the "easy" way out.

Is it time to start speculation on the next ingredient mix yet?

Ah I was using the wrong term all along - I meant rebuilding. But thats all water under the bridge.
I'll speculate that the next ingredient will be Stunning fist, with the forbidden class monk, and requiring the use of Tattooed Monk.

[Kazudo]

Speculation noted.

Let it be known that the next set of ingredients will be...unusual and that they have been decided. The current accuracy rating is:

COLD.

[Muggins]

COLD.
You heard the chairman, folks! Next round is Cloud Anchorite! :smallwink:

[Somensjev]

i look forward to the next one, hopefully i'll be able to submit a build it will be the first one i've submitted though, so don't expect much

[WhamBamSam]

I'm guessing it'll be something that moves away from ToB and full casting after this round. Maybe Incarnum or something from Tome of Magic. I'm going to guess ToM, and in particular, Truenamer will be involved, because having nice things two rounds in a row would just be ridiculous.

[Kazudo]

By the way, as a courtesy to myself, please don't include offensive language in your entrants. I'll be scrubbing them for anything that might be breaking forum rules a bit closer, but it would be nice if there wasn't anything there to scrub. Please and thank you!

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I looked up healing hymn and found out that the errata limits the bonus to the additional healing of the spell provided by caster level. A shame really, since you could do a cure light wounds at 20th level for 28 base +1d8 healed without the errata. Is there something I am missing? You're missing this:


You channel positive energy to cure 1d8 points of damage +1 point per caster level (maximum +25) in each selected creature.
Even with the errata (which, I admit, does really swing a nerf-bat at the lower-level uses), you're still looking at +25 from the spell level (which can be boosted pretty easily), and another +25 from Healing Hymn for a minimum of +50. You then proceed from there for some other healing boosters.

[Telonius]

Speculation noted.

Let it be known that the next set of ingredients will be...unusual and that they have been decided. The current accuracy rating is:

COLD.

Oooh, Rimefire Gazpacho? :smallbiggrin:

[Kazudo]

Oooh, Rimefire Gazpacho?

Wat.

To be fair, speculating with three potential ingredients is incredibly difficult considering that those ingredients could be a combination of any three potential terms.

The next one could be, for example, "Standard Actions" and "Move Speed", with the forbidden ingredient being any classes in the Player's Handbook.

...I might bookmark that one for use later.

[sakuuya]

Wat.

To be fair, speculating with three potential ingredients is incredibly difficult considering that those ingredients could be a combination of any three potential terms.

The next one could be, for example, "Standard Actions" and "Move Speed", with the forbidden ingredient being any classes in the Player's Handbook.

...I might bookmark that one for use later.

Could one make a character without standard actions? :smallconfused:

Anyway, I should get my judgings up later today. Is anybody else planning to judge? If not, I think we could start the next competition early (after a few days for disputes, of course) rather than waiting extra time.

[Muggins]

Could one make a character without standard actions? :smallconfused:

Anyway, I should get my judgings up later today. Is anybody else planning to judge? If not, I think we could start the next competition early (after a few days for disputes, of course) rather than waiting extra time.
If the secret ingredients were Standard Actions and Move Speed,it wouldn't be unreasonable to have the banned ingredient be Full-Round Actions or Spells. In which case, the focus of the challenge is making a character who can't full-attack into something useful.

If nobody has any complaints about it, I don't see why we couldn't end the judging early. Doing so would conveniently solve the matter of Scrapyard Wars and Iron Chef starting and ending on the same dates.

[Kazudo]

That wouldn't be too far-fetched of an idea, Sakuuya.

ANY PROSPECTIVE JUDGES who are still working on your judgings, please post in-thread sometime within the next two days to let us know you're still alive.

IF NO OTHER JUDGES SHOW UP, then the judging deadline will be shortened by 1 week to begin a new competition.

Anyone object?

Also, edit to nitpick


Doing so would conveniently solve the matter of Junkyard Wars and Iron Chef starting and ending on the same dates.

Fixed that for ya :smalltongue:

[Muggins]

I keep mixing those two up. Probably because we don't have Junkyards in Australia. Garbage/trash heaps and scrapyards, sure, but not junkyards. Not that I know of, anyway. :smallannoyed:

[Telonius]

I am so tempted to make (yet another) Hinjo pun...

[Kazudo]

I keep mixing those two up. Probably because we don't have Junkyards in Australia. Garbage/trash heaps and scrapyards, sure, but not junkyards. Not that I know of, anyway. :smallannoyed:

If it helps, it's actually based on a popular English/American TV show with the same title involving two teams building whatever the chairperson wanted. Then they competed with measurable metrics (and a guest Judge who was usually a prominent expert professional in that particular field) and whoever did best advanced to the next round of the competition. Sometimes it was stuff like "build me an unpowered glider" and sometimes it was stuff like "Build me a submarine that can repair underwater craft". Other times it was "build me the biggest, baddest tank you possibly could".

On a completely unrelated note, I think every third or so episode is going to be a special feature. :smalltongue:

[Muggins]

I've seen the television show, but that still doesn't help. :smallsigh:

Having a feat as one of the special ingredients sounds difficult. Most feats only do one thing, after all. It's like being given a battery that only works for the headlights, or a battery and only one wire. On the other hand: ambush feats, bardic music feats, Monkey Grip or Stunning Fist could produce some interesting things.

[justiceforall]

If it helps, it's actually based on a popular English/American TV show with the same title

The UK version was called Scrapheap Challenge if I recall correctly. And it was much better than the US copy, although that might have just been because the UK presenter was from Red Dwarf, and the US presenters were just damned annoying.

[sakuuya]

My Criteria

All categories start at 3, with each criterion being worth the indicated number of points in either direction.

Originality
Are the chosen race and classes surprising and/or unique to this competition? "Human" and "Crusader" won't net a bonus or penalty, and the score is based on whether other competitors used the same build elements. (+-1)

Does the build present a strong theme or concept beyond that implied by the Secret Ingredients? (+-0.5)

Does the build avoid cheese and well-known optimization tricks? (+-0.5)


Power
Can the build cast high-level spells? I'm considering 4th level spells the baseline, so as not to overly penalize half-casters. (+-0.5)

Does the build have any in-combat tricks besides those common to a Crusader/RKV? (+-0.5)

Does the build avoid relying on gear? (+-0.5)

Does the build have out-of-combat utility other than healing? (+-0.5)


Build Stability
Does the build qualify for all used feats, PrCs, etc.? (+-0.5)

Does the build flow well, and does the progression feel logical/natural? (+-0.5)

Does the build avoid excessive dipping and mulitclassing? (+-0.5)

Does the build avoid reliance on questionable rules interpretations and alternate rules systems? Nothing presented in adaptation/variant sections will count against you here. (+-0.5)


Use of Secret Ingredient

Failure to qualify for either secret ingredient (in this case, if a build can't cast any Conjuration (Healing) spells or has no levels in RKV) results in an automatic 1 in this category, regardless of how well or poorly the other secret ingredient was used.

Do Conjuration (Healing) spells feel like a core part of the build, rather than just some spells the build happens to have on its spell list? (+-1)

Are all the RKV’s features well-utilized? (+-1)




All scores changed due to disputes are marked dark red

Ravima of the Divided Faiths

Originality
Most of your classes were used by other competitors, but Paladin is unique, and grabbing the Holy Warrior ACF was an interesting choice. +0.25

Props for building a character around Heretic of the Faith rather than just going, "Eh, screw the fluff, he worships Pelor." +0.25

Nothing particularly cheesy. +0.5

3 + 0.5 + 0 + 0.25 = 4.25


Power
Because you do not qualify for Divine Crusader, you can't cast any spells. -0.5

Taking levels in all three ToB classes gives you a huge range of maneuvers, plus you also grabbed Improved Trip. +0.5

My issues with your gear reliance are (a) getting turning attempts for Quicken Spell, and (b) needing a Cha-increasing item to cast high-level spells. But since you don't qualify for Divine Crusader, neither of these things are actually going to come up. +0.5

You have half ranks in UMD, but you didn't say what in particular you're planning to do with them. +0

3 - 0.5 + 0.5 + 0.5 + 0= 3.5


Build Stability
You do not qualify for Divine Crusader (even with Heretic of the Faith, you need to be NG to become a Divine Crusader of an NG deity) and, therefore, also do not qualify for Contemplative. -0.5

I understand from a build perspective why you picked up Divine Crusader when you did, but it, along with the dips into the other ToB classes at the end, feel awkward. Taking metamatic feats as a non-spellcaster is technically allowed, but it's not very elegant. -0.5

You dip around quite a bit, though you avoid taking multiclass penalties. +0

I'm going to assume that the "if your DM allows it" caveat before the bit about WRT-ing yourself means that you intend it as a variant. If so, nothing questionable here. +0.5

3 - 0.5 - 0.5 + 0 + 0.5 = 2.5


UoSI
Because you do not qualify for Divine Crusader, you can't cast any Conjuration (Healing) spells. Automatic 1.

Of the RKV's four class features, you mention three of them, although you only explain how to use Divine Impetus, whereas Divine Wrath and Divine Recovery just get "Yep, this exists!" mentions.



Steven the Grim

Originality
Unfortunately, all the classes you used were also used by someone else. -0.5

A Wee Jas devotee who specializes in fighting undead is a concept that a few competitors used, and you don't do anything special with it. 0

Using Divine Impetus as a free action is both cheesy and not actually how that feature works. -0.5

3 - 0.5 + 0 - 0.5 = 2


Power
12th-level Healer casting nets you 6th-level spells, which is decent. +0.25

Swordsage levels give you more maneuver flexibility than an standard Crusader/RKV. +0.25

No strong reliance on gear. +0.5

You made a good party face with Diplomacy and Sense Motive, and your Tumble ranks aren't too shabby, either. +0.5

3 + 0.5 + 0.25 + 0.5 = 4.5


Build Stability
You qualify for everything you use. +0.5

Your build flows well +0.5

Minimal dipping with no multiclass penalties. +0.5

Using Divine Impetus as a free action is both cheesy and not actually how that feature works. -0.5

3 + 0.5 + 0.5 + 0.5 - 0.5 = 4


UoSI
Healer gives you a good range of healing spells, and Touch of Healing is a sweet feat for a healing character. The one downside is that you don't achieve the highest spell levels. +0.75

Of the RKV's four class features, you only mention using Divine Impetus. +0

3 + 0.75 + 0 = 3.75



Raphaella d'Jorasco

Originality
Water Halfling! Spirit Shaman! Prestige Paladin! +1

I found your concept to be a little slight, but it was very unique among the entries for this competition. +0.25

Fleshraker is a well-known optimized animal companion, but it's justified by fluff. Feat retraining to get around a PrC's requirement is pretty cheesy, though. -0.5

3 + 1 + 0.25 - 0.5 = 3.75


Power
Eighth-level spells with good flexibility. Nice. +0.5

Based on your description, you make good use of the maneuvers/stances from Crusader and RKV, but don't have any particular combat tricks outside of that. +0

Without Wis-boosting items, you lose two levels of spells. That's your only sticking point when it comes to gear reliance, though. +0.25

You have an excellent variety of spells thanks to Spirit Shaman casting and Domain Substitution, which should serve you well out of combat. +0.5

3 + 0.5 + 0 + 0.25 + 0.5 = 4.25


Build Stability
As per Muggins' comments, you do qualify for everything, though see the bit about Battle Blessing Below +0.5

It turns out Expedition to Castle Ravenloft is meant to be setting-independent, so no penalty for including it with an Eberron character.+0.5

You don't dip around much, but you do incur multiclass penalties from level 5 onward. +0

Flaws don't merit the automatic -1 deduction here that they do in IC, but they're still an alternate rules system. And your interpretation of Battle Blessing is also questionable.-0.5

3 + 0.5 + 0.5 + 0 - 0.5 = 3.5


UoSI
The SLAs gained from your Dragonmark are not spells, though they synergize nicely. You do get Conjuration (Healing) spells from your spellcasting, but don't do anything special with 'em. +0.25

You don't mention a single RKV class feature in your descriptions. You do pick up some Shadow Hand maneuvers, though. -0.75

3 + 0.25 - 0.75 = 2.5



Timothy the Savior

Originality
Hey, Combat Medic! I'm surprised this PrC didn't get more love, but you're the only one who used it. +0.5

Pretty standard, bare-bones fluff. +0

DMM is classically pretty cheesy, but using it to Quicken Mass Heals is definitely not. +0.5

3 + 0.5 + 0 + 0.5


Power
Eighth level Healer spells? Not bad at all. +0.25

I can't give you points here because I have no idea what maneuvers you're taking. Crusader is hard to screw up, but I need something to go on. -0.5

You appear to be gear-independent. Good for you! +0.5

As far as I'm concerned, assigning no skills from level 6 onward means that those skillpoints remain unassigned and don't help you in any way. -0.5

3 + 0.25 - 0.5 + 0.5 - 0.5 = 2.75


Build Stability
You don't meet the fluff prerequisites for KotR or RKV. I could ignore one or the other, but both prevents you from getting full marks. +0.25

The build flows well. +0.5

Minimal dipping with no multiclass penalties. +0.5

You seem to have an extra stat increase, and I can't figure out where it's from. +0

3 + 0.25 + 0.5 + 0.5 + 0 = 4.25


UoSI
Combat Medic gives you some great tricks to go with your high-level Conjuration (Healing) spells. +1

You don't mention any RKV class features, and I can't even give you points for using RKV to nab Shadow Hand maneuvers, because I don't know what maneuvers you take. -1

3 + 1 - 1 = 3



Evan Cleansedhand

Originality
Apostle of Peace, as you noted, is a weird, weird choice, and one I genuinely didn't expect to see in this competition. +1

Your fluff painted a strong picture of the character; working the fey-themed Exalted feats via a sex scandal was particularly clever. +0.5

I didn't notice anything cheesy here. And good for you for choosing the stricter interpretation of Vow of Poverty/Apostle of Peace. +0.5

3 + 1 + 0.5 + 0.5 = 5


Power
9th-level spells from Apostle of Peace. It's a pretty restrictive list, but your explanations on how to use it well were good. +0.5

You have a lot of flexibility from three classes worth of maneuvers. It seems like the Strikes conflict with your vows, which gives you fewer options, but you make a good case for how you're still an effective martial initiate. +0.25

Well, obviously you don't depend on items. +0.5

You make a good party face with Diplomacy and Sense Motive. +0.5

3 + 0.5 + 0.25 + 0.5 + 0.5 = 4.75


Build Stability
You don't qualify for the Knight of the Red Falcon feat. Additionally, as darkcouch pointed out, you calculate your IL wrong, which means that you don't qualify for several maneuvers at the level you take them. -0.5

The Monk and Death Delver dips don't feel like they fit in with the rest of your build; you don't seem to do much with them beyond DD's rebuking pool. +0

You're pretty dip-happy, though you avoid multiclass penalties. +0

Extra Turning only works on multiple turn/rebuke pools if the turn/rebuke pools affect different creature types. Since yours don't, the feat won't work like that for you. Otherwise, I think you're fine. +0

3 - 0.5 + 0 + 0 + 0 = 2.5


UoSI
You get 9th-level Conjuration (Healing) spells from Apostle of Peace, but don't do anything special with them. +0.25

You mention how you're using every RKV class feature except Armored Stealth. +0.75

3 + 0.25 + 0.75 = 3.75



Mr. Margrave

Originality

Unfortunately, all the classes you used were also used by other competitors. -0.5

Your fluff is pretty standard, given the SIs. +0

Nope, nothing cheesy. +0.5

3 - 0.5 + 0 + 0.5 = 3


Power
You do max out your Death Delver casting, but that only gets you 4th-level spells, and not many spells in general. +0

All the standard Crusader/RKV goodies, but nothing that really stands out. +0

You seem pretty item-independent. +0.5

Max ranks in Hide and Tumble plus half ranks in Move Silently plus Darkstalker plus Armored Stealth makes you pretty darn stealthy for a guy running around in plate armor. +0.5

3 + 0 + 0 + 0.5 + 0.5 = 4


Build Stability
You qualify for everything you take. +0.5

Very smooth-looking build. +0.5

Again, your build is very elegant, with very little multiclassing/dipping. +0.5

I'd probably allow your reading of Augmented Healing, but it is a bit borderline and should probably have gone in an adaptation section. +0

3 + 0.5 + 0.5 + 0.5 + 0 = 4.5


UoSI
Death Delver doesn't give high-level spells, but you really make the most of what you've got with your healing-boosting feats. +0.75

Oh, hey, someone finally remembered that Armored Stealth exists! And you touch on all the other RKV features, too. +1

3 + 0.75 + 1 = 4.75



The Fist of Wee Jas

Originality
Daelkyr Halfblood and Divine Mind were both surprises. +1

I like that you made your own heresy to explain some build choices, but I think you could've gone further with it. +0.25

I didn't see anything cheesy. +0.5

3 + 1 + 0.25 + 0.5 = 4.75


Power

You don't gain access to any spells, since you can't use Heretic of the Faith to swap out a domain you don't have. -0.5

You're not particularly optimized for intimidate shenanigans, but good Intimidate and Imperious Command do give you an extra option in addition to your Crusader/RKV stuff. +0.25

Item independent? Check. +0.5

Really, the only out-of-combat thing you've got going for you is Intimidate, which isn't much. +0

3 - 0.5 + 0.25 + 0.5 = 3.25


Build Stability
You don't qualify for Heretic of the Faith at the level you take it because you don't have any spellcasting ability yet. +0

The psionic bits of your build don't mesh with the rest of it. They're an interesting idea, but you just leave them hanging. -0.5

Minimal dipping and multiclassing. +0.5

You can't use Heretic of the Faith to swap out a domain you don't have. -0.5

3 + 0 - 0.5 + 0.5 - 0.5 = 2.5


UoSI
Because you do not qualify for Heretic of the Faith (and can't use it to swap out a domain you don't have anyway), you cannot cast any Conjuration (Healing) spells. Automatic 1.

Nice job with the synergy between Law Devotion and Divine Fury, but you don't mention any other RKV features.



And there we go! This was my first time judging, and I think the fact that the SIs were basically good made it more difficult. Anyhow, please feel free to hit me up with disputes (and also check my math). :smallsmile:

[Muggins]

Thanks for judging, Sakuuya!

You cast Spirit Shaman spells, not Paladin spells, and thus do not qualify for Battle Blessing. Other than that, though, you're fine. +0
A quick heads-up:

In general, any character who enters [Prestige Paladin, Prestige Ranger or Prestige Bard] should gain access to spells unique to that class' spell list from the Player's Handbook, at the same levels indicated for the standard class. At the DM's discretion, spells unique to that class' spell list found in other books may also be available, but on a case-by-case basis.
As with most things in Unearthed Arcana, this rule is rather vague. For example, we assume that these spells are added to the divine spellcasting class you use to qualify for Prestige Paladin, but that's never stated.
Raphaella has also taken the interpretation that these spells still count as "Paladin Spells" for the purpose of feats such as Battle Blessing. After all, they're not exactly "Spirit Shaman Spells" despite being added to her list (presumably). Others share this stance, and I believe there's a build on this very forum which has a Divine Crusader/Prestige Paladin/Prestige Ranger multiclass floating about.


New table!



Name of Build
Judge #1 Score
Judge #2 Score
Judge #3 Score
Total Score
Avg Score


Evan Cleansedhand
16
14.5
16.75
47.25
15.75


Mr. Margrave
15.5
14
16.25
45.75
15.25


Steven the Grim
15
12.75
14.25
42
14


Raphaella d'Jorasco
16
12.5
12.75
41.25
13.75


Ravima of Divided Faiths
15.5
8.75
11
39.75
13.25


Timothy the Savior
16
8.5
14
38.5
12.833


The Fist of Wee Jas
15
10
12
37
12.333



Talk about a shakeup. We've even got a change to third place from Raphaella to Steven!

[Darkcouch]

Spoilering this so no potential judges out there will be influenced:

I did not submit a build and I normally wouldn't say anything, but all 3 judges so far missed the fact that Evan Cleansedhands does not qualify for the last two maneuvers chosen. Because 2nd place is so close I would hate for them to lose out due to Power predicated on illegal maneuvers.

[Muggins]

In response to Darkcouch:
Keep in mind that stances count as maneuvers for prerequisites. The last two maneuvers chosen were Time Stands Still and War Master's Charge, although you may be referring to Ghostly Defense. Breakdown is as follows:

Time Stands Still requires 4 maneuvers of the Diamond Mind discipline. These are:
Sapphire Nightmare Blade: No requirements, taken at IL 4.
Action before thought: No requirements, taken at IL 4.
Emerald Razor: Requires 1 maneuver, taken at IL 4,
Stance of Alacrity: Requires 3 maneuvers, taken at IL 17.

War Master's Charge requires 4 maneuvers of the White Raven discipline. These are:
Leading the Charge: No requirements, taken at IL 1.
Douse the Flames: No requirements, taken at IL 1.
Leading the Attack: No requirements, taken at IL 1.
White Raven Tactics: Requires 1 maneuver, taken at IL 7.
Swarming Assault: No requirements, taken at IL 14.
White Raven Hammer: No requirements, taken at IL 16.

Ghostly Defense requires 3 maneuvers from the Setting Sun discipline. These are:
Counter Charge: No requirements, taken at IL 3.
Mighty Throw: No requirements, taken at IL 3.
Baffling Defense: Requires 1 maneuver, taken at IL 3.

[sakuuya]

Thanks for judging, Sakuuya!

A quick heads-up:

As with most things in Unearthed Arcana, this rule is rather vague. For example, we assume that these spells are added to the divine spellcasting class you use to qualify for Prestige Paladin, but that's never stated.
Raphaella has also taken the interpretation that these spells still count as "Paladin Spells" for the purpose of feats such as Battle Blessing. After all, they're not exactly "Spirit Shaman Spells" despite being added to her list (presumably). Others share this stance, and I believe there's a build on this very forum which has a Divine Crusader/Prestige Paladin/Prestige Ranger multiclass floating about.


I disagree with this interpretation - what "Paladin spells" are is never defined, but I interpret it to mean "spells cast with Paladin spell slots," not "any spell that happens to be on the Paladin list." Similarly, a multiclass Wizard/Sorcerer would only be able to use Sorcerer casting to cast spells it learned as a Sorcerer, despite its Wizard spells technically also being Sorcerer spells. What you're casting as matters more than what list the spells were originally on, essentially. And yeah, my way of looking at this feat makes it utterly incompatible with Prestige Paladin (since PP is meant to replace the regular Pally, which means Paladin spell slots are not a thing in a campaign where PP is used), but I don't expect developers to check to make sure their stuff is UA-compatible. It'd be nice if they defined their dang terms, though, so this kind of thing wouldn't come up.

EDIT: But thinking about it, it really falls under "questionable rules interpretation" rather than "does not qualify," so I bumped her Build Stability up half a point.

[Kazudo]

Wow. Judging by a previous gold medalist. Good stuff too.
If we hear from no more potential judges before, say, 11:59 PM GMT on Wednesday May 7th, we may close the polls and reveal and get the special Feature underway. (Get it? Feature? Because JWitP will be having its third episode?
In other news, I'm still scratching my head over a fourth episode. Thankfully I have a few weeks before I need to have an answer. The next episode may need more cooking time than anything, so any time taken off of this one may very well go onto the next one. Hmm.
Ah, preemptive bridge-crossing.

[Deadline]

Huh, this has been an interesting set of judgings.

[Kazudo]

While we're waiting,

Sakuuya and Muggins! A quibble!


EtCR specifically states that Barovia is a "a small valley nestled between the civilized heart of Karrnath and the forbidding mountains of the Mror Holds," so there's absolutely no contradiction with using an EtCR class in an Eberron built. It even gives rules for action points (basically, if you use one and fail anyway Strahd gets one of his own). In fact, despite the name of the castle, there's no option given to place Barovia in Ravenloft (due, I believe, to trademark issues).

Also, do we really need to detail things like going on that particular adventure? I'd think the principle of charity applies in this case, given that the chapel exists in Eberron and I didn't detail any of the other 266 encounters she'd have to have overcome to reach level 20. "She spent a night in Ravenloft's Chapel" is implied in "She took a level in Knight of the Raven," and unlike if I were to add in another feat, there's absolutely nothing anywhere in rules or fluff that suggests that would be difficult or even terribly unusual in Eberron.

[dysprosium]

Since you are thinking of ending this one early and I am working on judging for IC, it would appear that you do not need any judgings from me.

[Kazudo]

I just don't want to tax you too much, Dysprosium. IC had a huge batch this time around and adding JW to your plate might have been too much.

If you want to judge, please do so, we'll hold the polls open through the normal duration.

It's not that I don't need you! Honest!

[sakuuya]

EtCR specifically states that Barovia is a "a small valley nestled between the civilized heart of Karrnath and the forbidding mountains of the Mror Holds," so there's absolutely no contradiction with using an EtCR class in an Eberron built. It even gives rules for action points (basically, if you use one and fail anyway Strahd gets one of his own). In fact, despite the name of the castle, there's no option given to place Barovia in Ravenloft (due, I believe, to trademark issues).

Also, do we really need to detail things like going on that particular adventure? I'd think the principle of charity applies in this case, given that the chapel exists in Eberron and I didn't detail any of the other 266 encounters she'd have to have overcome to reach level 20. "She spent a night in Ravenloft's Chapel" is implied in "She took a level in Knight of the Raven," and unlike if I were to add in another feat, there's absolutely nothing anywhere in rules or fluff that suggests that would be difficult or even terribly unusual in Eberron.


I totally missed EtCR's adaptation section (FYI, Muggins, it's on p. 20), so you're right, it can be slotted into Eberron no probalo. I'll go update your score presently.

Regarding your second point, as I see it, the difference between encounters necessary for fluff requirements and other encounters is that fluff-requirement-encounters are are required, and it's always best to be explicit about meeting requirements. I'm fairly lenient about fluff prereqs (the only build I knocked for it lost a quarter-point for multiple instances), but I understand why a judge might choose to penalize an entry for not explicitly meeting 'em.

[Muggins]

My bad for not realising that Expedition to Castle Ravenloft was a setting-neutral book. I was under the impression that Ravenloft was a unique campaign setting controlled by the Dark Powers, rather than an environment which could be slotted into other settings. Score Alteration: -0.25 removed. Build Stability now at 1.5/5, for a total score of 13.


Also, do we really need to detail things like going on that particular adventure? I'd think the principle of charity applies in this case, given that the chapel exists in Eberron and I didn't detail any of the other 266 encounters she'd have to have overcome to reach level 20. "She spent a night in Ravenloft's Chapel" is implied in "She took a level in Knight of the Raven," and unlike if I were to add in another feat, there's absolutely nothing anywhere in rules or fluff that suggests that would be difficult or even terribly unusual in Eberron.
"She took a level in Knight of the Raven" is not in your fluff either. While this may sound pedantic and arbitrary, Raphaella never even meets with a Knight of the Raven or travels into Barovia. There is a historical basis for this in past optimisation challenges, and even so much as lip service would be enough for me.

Class flavour prerequisites are different from the various encounters a level 20 character has experienced during their career. For example, how can you take levels in Illithid Slayer if you've never even heard of an illithid?
As a metaphor: some people won't eat fish unless it's been doused with lemon juice. Even if it's otherwise their favourite fish, the taste is off.

[Kazudo]

As a metaphor: some people won't eat fish unless it's been doused with lemon juice. Even if it's otherwise their favourite fish, the taste is off.

Can you phrase this as an engineering or architectural metaphor? This ain't IC yaknow. :smalltongue:

[Muggins]

Can you phrase this as an engineering or architectural metaphor? This ain't IC yaknow. :smalltongue:
What do you think I am, an engineer or architect? :smallwink:

[sakuuya]

What do you think I am, an engineer or architect? :smallwink:

Wait, does this mean you're an actual chef??

[Muggins]

Wait, does this mean you're an actual chef??
Curiously enough, no. I know how to cook food without actually working as a chef. It's a talent of mine.

Most people eat on a daily basis. Designing buildings and complex mechanics isn't something quite as familiar to me.

[Kazudo]

Just demonstrating the potential disconnect between fluff requirements and crunch happenstance.

Poorly.

At any rate, in future iterations there might be an FAQ section as the second post having a lot to do with judging and character building like, for example, ensuring that any fluff requirements are met (or at least outlined) somewhere within the character build, and ensuring that the judges take those requirements as minimally required since they rarely if ever impact the crunch of the build.

[Darkcouch]

In response to Darkcouch:
Keep in mind that stances count as maneuvers for prerequisites. The last two maneuvers chosen were Time Stands Still and War Master's Charge, although you may be referring to Ghostly Defense. Breakdown is as follows:

Time Stands Still requires 4 maneuvers of the Diamond Mind discipline. These are:
Sapphire Nightmare Blade: No requirements, taken at IL 4.
Action before thought: No requirements, taken at IL 4.
Emerald Razor: Requires 1 maneuver, taken at IL 4,
Stance of Alacrity: Requires 3 maneuvers, taken at IL 17.

War Master's Charge requires 4 maneuvers of the White Raven discipline. These are:
Leading the Charge: No requirements, taken at IL 1.
Douse the Flames: No requirements, taken at IL 1.
Leading the Attack: No requirements, taken at IL 1.
White Raven Tactics: Requires 1 maneuver, taken at IL 7.
Swarming Assault: No requirements, taken at IL 14.
White Raven Hammer: No requirements, taken at IL 16.

Ghostly Defense requires 3 maneuvers from the Setting Sun discipline. These are:
Counter Charge: No requirements, taken at IL 3.
Mighty Throw: No requirements, taken at IL 3.
Baffling Defense: Requires 1 maneuver, taken at IL 3.


I'm actually referring to calculation of initiator level which is incorrect throughout the whole build, but only affects the final 2 choices. The Crusader initiator level is 15 at level 18 (14.5 for Warblade or swordsage) so Evan does qualify for 8th level maneuvers at that level; however based on the class choices the initiator levels are 15.5 and 16 at levels 19 and 20 respectively so he can't pick up 9th level maneuvers. If Evan went Crusader for levels 19 and 20 he would qualify for a single 9th at level 20, but since Crusader doesn't get a maneuver at 4th level Evan still couldn't get any 9ths.

Now that you mention it Evan qualifies for all his stances, but he shouldn't get one at lvl 19 as Warblade doesn't get their second stance until level 4.

EDIT: Taking a second look at it he doesn't qualify for quite a few maneuvers when he takes them(Initiator level at time he takes them): Rabid Wolf Strike(2.5), Baffling Defense(2.5), Shadow Jaunt(2.5), Cloak of Deception(2.5), White Raven Tactics(6.5), War Master's Charge(15.5), Time Stands Still(16)

[Jeff the Green]

Curiously enough, no. I know how to cook food without actually working as a chef. It's a talent of mine.

Most people eat on a daily basis. Designing buildings and complex mechanics isn't something quite as familiar to me.

What, you mean you cook your own food but you don't design your own house? It's all or nothing, man.

:smalltongue:

[Kazudo]

What, you mean you cook your own food but you don't design your own house? It's all or nothing, man.

:smalltongue:

I design MY food and cook MY house.

Wait.

[Telonius]

I've had some campaigns end up kind of like that.

[Kazudo]

Dahaha yes. So, it's looking like aside from Dysprosium we likely have no other judging candidates.

[Muggins]

Thanks for the pointers, Darkcouch. Alterations have been made, and we're currently looking at the following scores.



Name of Build
Judge #1 Score
Judge #2 Score
Judge #3 Score
Total Score
Avg Score


Evan Cleansedhand
16
13.75
16.75
46.5
15.5


Mr. Margrave
15.5
14
16.25
45.75
15.25


Raphaella d'Jorasco
16
13
13.75
42.75
14.25


Steven the Grim
15
12.75
14.25
42
14


Ravima of Divided Faiths
15.5
8.75
11
39.75
13.25


Timothy the Savior
16
8.5
14
38.5
12.833


The Fist of Wee Jas
15
10
12
37
12.333



Raphaella scores back bronze. Neato.

[sakuuya]

I also updated my scores to reflect Darkcouch's disputes--Evan's score dropped half a point, which I believe means he's still in first place, but hot damn is it a close race.

[Kazudo]

Hold on to those damns for one more dispute
To Sakuuya:



I did mention RKV class features. For one thing, maneuver progression is a class feature, and an important one both for the class and Raphaella. I also do obliquely mention Divine Impetus ("impressive number of buffs"), and honestly the use of Divine Recovery should be obvious when she has little else to use her turn attempts on and such good maneuvers. I'd also argue that, as SLAs are treated as spells but for a few exceptions, they ought to be treated as such in judging, but that is more of an opinion than anything.

[sakuuya]

I did mention RKV class features. For one thing, maneuver progression is a class feature, and an important one both for the class and Raphaella. I also do obliquely mention Divine Impetus ("impressive number of buffs"), and honestly the use of Divine Recovery should be obvious when she has little else to use her turn attempts on and such good maneuvers. I'd also argue that, as SLAs are treated as spells but for a few exceptions, they ought to be treated as such in judging, but that is more of an opinion than anything.

I acknowledged both the fact that you pick up Shadow Hand maneuvers (other RKV maneuvers could be grabbed just as easily by a single-class Crusader and are thus not really special to the SI) and that your SLAs, while not actually being an SI, were a nice bonus. Both of these things are reflected in your current score. As for the others, you do not mention RKV's non-maneuver features. "Impressive number of buffs" is too vague to get points, and not mentioning Divine Recovery is not mentioning Divine Recovery. I don't assume that just because a build reaches the appropriate level for feature X that feature X is an important component of the build.

Score stands, sorry.

[Kazudo]

Alright. Well, I'm waiting to see if we have any more judges or disputes. If not, I don't quite see the reason to keep the thread going without creating a new one for a new competition.

[Muggins]

Please do. I'm anxious to see the ingredients for round III. :smallsmile:

[dysprosium]

Mr Chairman you do not have to hold the polls open any longer than you want to for me. The IC judging and real life work have taken a hold of me.

You have quite a good showing here with contestants and judging by the way. Here's hoping I might get to actually compete in Round III!

You have quite a good thing going on here yourself!

[Kazudo]

Mr Chairman you do not have to hold the polls open any longer than you want to for me. The IC judging and real life work have taken a hold of me.

You have quite a good showing here with contestants and judging by the way. Here's hoping I might get to actually compete in Round III!

You have quite a good thing going on here yourself!

I wept. I wept tears of joy. Truly I have been honored by your showing, Dysprosium-Senpai.

Senpai has noticed me!

...Haha. Hah. hah. Anyway, now that that's over with, I think I'll likely go ahead and do so. Hopefully the next one doesn't scare anyone off, I have the feeling it might be TOO over the top. OH WELL. It'll be fun anyway!

And now for the reveal:

The Gold Medal goes to...WhamBamSam for Evan Cleansedhand!
The Silver Medal goes to...Deadline for Mr. Margrave!
The Bronze Medal goes to...Jeff the Green for Raphaella d'Jorasco!

There was no honorable mention this time around due to a lack of votes for it! Because of this, any of the following can still be nominated for honorable mention:

In 4th, Telonius for Steven the Grim!
In 5th, Ikeren for Ravima of Divided Faiths!
In 6th, vhfforever for Timothy the Savior!
in 7th, Kuulvheysoon for The Fist of Wee Jas!

Thanks for tuning in, folks. Since this episode set a precedent in ending somewhat early, I'll include an addendum in the next episode's opener to make sure that the possibility is covered.

A round of applause for not only our competitors, but also our judges! Until next time!

The next episode can be found here! Beware, there be dragons! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?347412-Junkyard-Wars-in-the-Playground-III&p=17440986#post17440986)

[WhamBamSam]

I can't believe I made that mistake on Initator Level. That's my fault for never actually carefully reading the whole way through ToB, and trusting what I see on forums and things. I probably could have re-worked it a bit and made it to 9ths to get those top few maneuvers somehow, but that's really annoying finding out that initiator levels don't stack between initiator classes. Ah well, it wouldn't really be a WhamBamSam entry if it didn't have at least one major glaring error.

Ah well. I shouldn't be a sore winner. Congratulations to Deadline and Jeff the Green as well.

I almost submitted a Death Delver build myself. It would have been something like Paladin 4/Swordsage 4/Death Delver 2/RKV 10 or Swordsage 4/Crusader or Hit and Run Fighter 1/Death Delver 2/Prestige Paladin 2/RKV 10/Swordsage +1 using Intuitive Attack, Shadow Blade, Serenity, and Insightful Strikes (Shadow Hand) to be as Wis/Dex SAD as possible.

Looking forward to the next round!

[Kuulvheysoon]

Yeah, I forgot to send the Chair my final build - in it, I had Heretic of the Faith at 9th level and Law Devotion at 6th (and since you select class features and such before feats, it made everything fit perfectly). Of course, I was stuck with a WF (Dagger), but I mentioned an adaptation about retraining.

Alas, I only noticed after Muggins judged (as The Fist did well with the first judge, so I assumed that all was well). Live and learn, I say.