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Quietus
2007-02-08, 03:28 AM
I decided to run with an idea I've had for a while - a character who's permanently blind - and since we had a thread about average characters, I figured that I would post what this char's up to here, and see what everyone thinks, and if anyone can point out suggestions.


Currently, his charsheet is looking like :

Jacob Paloma, Human Monk level 1
Str 15
Dex 6
Con 13
Int 11
Wis 17
Cha 13

Skills (each has 4 ranks, there's a -4 penalty imposed on most str/dex skills for being blind) -
Balance : -2
Climb +2
Jump +2
Swim +6
Listen +14

Feats -
Skill Focus (Listen), Attentive Listener (variation on Alertness; instead of +2 spot and listen, this gives me +4 listen), Improved Grapple (Bonus feat), and Blind-fight (given as a free bonus due to the lack of eyesight)




Backstory - when Jacob was 8 years old, his hometown was attacked by a group known as the Ghoul Touched. During that attack, he was hit by a miscast Blindness/Deafness spell, which robbed him of his sight. No healer in the town knew how to fix his ailment, and both of his parents were killed in that attack, so he was taken in by a monk that lived there named Keri. Over the course of the next 15 years, she trained Jacob to do the best he could with what he had; Jacob still hates the Balance training she puts him through, as his blindness penalty and his natural clumsiness made such things incredibly difficult.

He's since finished as much training as Keri was willing to give him - she's instructed him to come and find her at a particular monastary several day's travel from his town once he's honed his instincts so he can better avoid attacks (in game terms, she's referring to the level 5 monk AC bonus). Since then, a woman named Viola (another PC) arrived in his town, looking for information on the Ghoul Touched. Since he has a personal score to settle with them, Jacob agreed to travel with her, figuring that the best way to build his intuition is in real-world situations.



It's worth noting that magic doesn't work quite so well on fixing his eyes as it should; We ran into another group of PC's in our small bit of travelling so far, and one of them was a cleric. They took it upon themselves to try and cast Remove Blindness/Deafness on Jacob, but my DM has ruled that because the spell's been in effect for so long, my blindness resists magic; The typical magical methods of fixing his blindness won't work, and even if they did, I as the player would resist it in every way possible. Will saves, for now, AND Jacob's Spell Resistance should he by some miracle reach high enough level. He'll be blind for his entire life.


I've spoken with my DM regarding the training that Keri will be putting the character through come level 5. Pretty much as I expect... it's something that should, by all rights, be near-impossible for a regular character to do, much less a blind one. And Jacob knows all too well how much Keri loves to test his balance... particularly since he HATES it.

I've been thinking; For skills, at level two, instead of raising Swim, I'm going to raise Tumble. Then for levels three and four, drop the Swim points AND the Jump points into Tumble - that'll give me a synergy bonus on Jump to catch up for the lost points, a synergy bonus on Balance (which means even with synergy and seven ranks, I'll finally be at like +3 balance at level 4!), and though Jacob does love swimming, he's already quite good at it. After level 4, I'll just continue maxing the skills I've been working on so far, leaving my Tumble at +1 total.

Feat-wise, the feats that I qualify for are limited... those dex and int scores really hurt me. Of those that are left, many, like Power Attack, don't make sense; Jacob tries his hardest, but he's really not that great a combatant. So I'm thinking... Endurance at level 3 (Viola's a Ranger, and will pick up Endurance at the same time, conveniently), and look at Diehard/Improved Initiative for levels 6/9. After that... who knows, probably the Save Bonus feats, starting with Lightning Reflexes. Oh, for my Monk bonus feats I'm thinking Deflect Arrows (which will only work if my opponent is within 10 feet per rank of listen I have), and Improved Trip.

I'm interested in hearing any ideas that you guys come up with - suggestions, comments, anything really.

oriong
2007-02-08, 03:48 AM
Honestly, he'll always be bad at combat until you get something that gives him blindsight. With a combination of great listen score, feats, and possibly whole new abilities you can eventually get him up to the level where he's mostly not crippled.

But all that means is that you've spent a whole lot of effort making him as powerful as he would have been anyway, except now he's got a lot fewer feats and usuable skill points.

I mean let's be honest, you've already spent two feats: one on the pseudo alertness ,one on skill focus. Both massive wastes from an effectiveness perspective. The blind fight feat was free, but all it means is that you're slightly less crippled, even though you could have been completely fine to begin with. Instead of being totally blind you now have the combat effectiveness of a one armed kobold and it only cost you two of your feats and a ton of your skill points. It's even worse that you chose to penalized dexterity, frankly you're just painting a bright red target on your chest that says 'kill me, I'm easy'.

you'll probably want to grab Hear the Unseen, since that'll at least give you an idea of the battlefield, but frankly you won't even come close to being combat effective until you've gotten ahold of a magic item of Blindsight, and that just means you've got a lot of useless feats now and had to spend money to remove this disability: so you're a monk, with less cash and less feats.

I understand that it often comes down to wanting to try out a specific flavor idea rather than raw effectiveness, however this is just the wrong game for it. There's a reason you don't play D+D as a quadrapalegic with a brain tumor. Being a blind character doesn't mean you become a badass blind master, it means you become a guy who swings and misses most of the time.

Now, here's some actual advice. From what I can see unless you bullied your DM into letting you be blind character he owes you a bit of slack. See if he'll let you create a custom PrC based around the idea of a blind master: something to give you blindsense as a class ability, maybe some intuition based AC boosts to make up for your poor dexterity and who knows, maybe even full attack and unarmed strike progression to go along with it. Blindness sucks more than enough to make up for it.

cupkeyk
2007-02-08, 04:15 AM
Take a race with a bonus to wisdom. I can only think of Aasimar though. At 19 Wisdom and Blindfight, he qualifies for Blindsight 5' (http://systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/featsList.html#blindsight-5-ft-radius) when he reaches BAB +4, likely at level six if aasimar or if he find a wisdom boosting item. Level 9 if he is any other race without a wisdom boost. Blindsight is in Deities and Demigods

Another is worshipping a one of the Abyssal deities, but you may need to be at least skewed towards evil, at best neutral. The Abyss Domain lets you see in magical darkness, darkness and well pretty much lets you see. It counts for two domains and is in the Planar Handbook as well as Spell Compendium. It actually makes a single level dip worth it.

Another is dipping in Sorc or Wiz(Wiz is better since you can swap out wisdom for Intelligence with the Carmendine Monk) and ask your bat(with blindsight, going tiefling and cloaking everything in darkness will be an awesome tactic, but later when you can communicate with him, also tiefling boosts your INT, you can get fiendish bloodline so you can cast darkness 3/day) or Raven to guide your attacks by telling you which square to attack. You suffer the 50% miss chance but is not as debilitated. You can then PRC as Enlightened Fist. This also let's you get Bloodwind as a spell and punch people with blasts of air.

As Carmendine Monk, go 17 INT. Serously, dump stat charisma instead and pump dex. Take one of the fighting styles from UA, particularly Denying Stance. Grappling an opponent lets you deal damage each round without an attack roll using a contested grapple roll instead. You need only worry about the initial touch attack.

Hey, wait, you are called quietus, So you are making an assamite? LOLz

Zeb The Troll
2007-02-08, 04:18 AM
I'm inclined to agree with Oriong. Blind in the game is a huge handicap. Having a 6 dex is almost as much. I think I'd try to swing the GM for the Skill Focus and/or Attentive Listener for free too. Try to recoup some of those losses.

Ninja Chocobo
2007-02-08, 04:21 AM
y'might want to take Blind-Fight. It's suboptimal, yes, but in your case it might make a fair bit of difference.

Edit: Whoops, didn't read the bit about blind fight being free.

Caelestion
2007-02-08, 06:13 AM
Get Mongoose's Quintessential Monk. That has the five-level Blind Master PrC, specifically for blind monks. I designed a character around such a principle - a blind man with monastic training who also has a Vow of Poverty.

Ikkitosen
2007-02-08, 06:37 AM
There's a stance in ToB that gives you blindsense, but it's 5th level. If you can find some way to pump your effective initiator level and take this (via the Martial Stance feat) it'd help. There may be one for blindsight but that's certain to be of higher level and thus an even greater problem.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-08, 06:41 AM
Why don't you just use the mechanics of a normal monk, but roleplay him being blind? He can't see anything, but use the combat mechanics for swinging without miss chance anyway. He can hear stuff, et cetera.

Central Dogma
2007-02-08, 09:18 AM
My friend did a blind ranger. He somehow got blinsight and could "see: just about anything in 120 radius.

ken-do-nim
2007-02-08, 09:22 AM
I see potential here ... potential to replicate the hero from Blind fury!
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0096945/

Go for it!

Melrob
2007-02-08, 09:49 AM
We had a monk years ago who had a vow of silence. We honestly thought he was just a lazy roleplayer as it lasted for almost two years solid.

Then one day he broke his vow, in a curdling scream of anger, as half the party were killed because one character wouldn't give a +1 ring to a dragon turtle. A measly +1 ring.

Beware of monks with disabilities...for they are portents of doooooooooom!

Telonius
2007-02-08, 10:07 AM
Okay, so you want to play Daredevil ... Possibly focus on things that will put everybody else in darkness, so you're fighting on an even keel.

There's only one PrC that I know of that gives Tremorsense: 6th level of Horizon Walker (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/horizonWalker.htm) can give you the Cavernous planar terrain, which grants you tremorsense 30.

You can get Blindsense from feats, but you'd have to be either a Shifter or a Druid.

silvermesh
2007-02-08, 10:24 AM
I would talk to the DM about getting scent as your free feat instead of blind-fight, and you can burn the feat on blind-fight yourself. having scent would allow you to make a few less skill checks in combat just to be effective.

as a DM I would allow scent as replacement for sight, and I'd probably give you a free bonus to listen checks as well. To me, it stands as reasonable to believe that this conditioned happened early enough in your childhood to alter your development. I would steal your free feat for being human, and throw in a "blind master" package that includes the blindness, a +2 listen bonus, scent, and blind-fight.

work towards a 19 wis so you can pick up 5' blindsight.

Gamebird
2007-02-08, 10:34 AM
I'm with Bears With Lasers. Play a normal monk and say he's blind. Maybe make it a vow of some sort, where he feels compelled to gouge out his eyes if the PCs (or anyone else) fixes them. You could work tragic stuff into his backstory about seeing something not meant to be seen, or somesuch. Then simply pretend your character can't see. Shouldn't be too hard, since you're already pretending to be a monk in a D&D game world.

Quietus
2007-02-08, 11:12 AM
A lot of good suggestions, but there's only one slight problem; I've already started playing the character, and he's got a bit of exp toward gaining level 2. It's a little bit late for a short dip in another class, or to start out as a different type of monk, or begin as an Aasimar, or Tiefling.

And I did try and nudge my DM into giving me something more... a listen bonus, or something to that effect. He didn't feel it was necessary, and figured that I could do just well enough without such a bonus; Hence the Skill Focus and Attentive Listener. My +14 Listen translates into me being able to almost always know where someone heavily armored is on the battlefield, and the DM assumes that Jacob is always taking ten on Listen unless he's listening for something specific- which means he can hear the sound of regular conversation at 240 feet, assuming no distractions.

In all honesty, unless a prestige class offers me something that will let me continue working toward my Monk bonuses, I don't think that it would be appropriate. He isn't adventuring for some grand quest, or to gain fame, he's out adventuring because his mentor told him to improve his insight. And once he's done that, his mentor is going to be moving somewhere else, high up in the mountains most likely, to a place that will require the Abundant Step class feature to get to. If I don't get that feature, I won't be able to continue that training, which is this character's entire point.

As for dumping charisma, I did think about that - but it just made sense to me that a blind character would be clumsy, as well. I knew full well it would maim my combat effectiveness, my total AC is like... 11. I am, indeed, a large red target. So far, I've been in a single fight with this character, and I ended up taking three crossbow bolts before I could grab hold of a kobold. Of course, once I did, it only took one elbow-shot to knock it out cold, so that was kinda nice. And he's done some other cool things... caught a halfling as he flew through the air over Jacob's head, I rolled over 30 on my listen check to place the body, 20 to grab it, passed concealment, and snatched the flying halfling out of the air, safely setting him on the ground. My thunder was stolen shortly afterward by Viola rolling three natural ones on heal checks and nearly killing the halfling's friend, however.

There's been quite a few good ideas here so far, though - the Scent or Tremorsense abilities would be excellent to get hold of, I particularly like the Tremorsense one - it suits Jacob quite nicely. I've been thinking about Blindsight 5', as well, and thinking that maybe rather than taking Diehard, I'd take that - Maybe I'll be able to convince my DM to let me take Tremorsense as a feat once I've reached the Abundant Step training ground, have Keri teach him to hone his senses that much better. I do like the roleplaying hooks behind that! By that point, we might have even dealt with the Ghoul Touched, leaving the way open for a quest to gain the Tremorsense ability.

The_Werebear
2007-02-08, 11:20 AM
Take Earth Sense from Races of stone.

It allows you to detect any creature within 20 feet if they are touching the ground, as well as opening you up to a couple of other feats that give you bonuses to attack if you are touching the ground.

Quietus
2007-02-08, 11:29 AM
Take Earth Sense from Races of stone.

It allows you to detect any creature within 20 feet if they are touching the ground, as well as opening you up to a couple of other feats that give you bonuses to attack if you are touching the ground.

Nice - I'll have to look into that. What's the prereqs on it?

Ramza00
2007-02-08, 11:33 AM
There is also a feat in Lords of Madness that allows you to sense creatures life force. Lifesense or something like that.

Person_Man
2007-02-08, 11:35 AM
I agree with Bears and Gamebird. You don't need to FUBAR your mechanics to roleplay an interesting character.

As a side note, I know a great deal about and have a close friend who is blind. He hates the whole blind martial artist stereotype, because it sugarcoats a serious disability and gives people a false view of what blindness is like. People who are blind don't have keener hearing or smell or touch. They have to go through years of training just to function at the level of a sighted person. There is no way in the world that a blind person could effectively fight in combat without magic of some sort, no matter how much martial arts training they have.

Having said that, Daredevil is still pretty cool, and there's no reason you couldn't pick up Blindsense from a prestige class (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060106a&page=2) and just roleplay yourself as being otherwise blind.

Yuki Akuma
2007-02-08, 11:37 AM
Play another tired cliche that isn't so crippling is the only advice I have.

KingRexII
2007-02-08, 11:40 AM
Blinded

The character cannot see. He takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class, loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any), moves at half speed, and takes a -4 penalty on Search (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/search.htm) checks and on most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/usingSkills.htm#skillChecks). All checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Spot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/spot.htm) checks) automatically fail. All opponents are considered to have total concealment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#totalConcealment) (50% miss chance) to the blinded character. Characters who remain blinded for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them.



I would lean on that last clause if I were you to try to get some of those penalties lessened. How long has your character been blind? I might say that every ten years (just making up a number here) you've had this affliction lessens some of the penalties by 1. And with active training to overcome the blindness, I would think it might take less time. I mean, look at Jean-Claude Van Damme in Bloodsport. It took him, like days.

Ramza00
2007-02-08, 11:47 AM
Blindsense
glaring eye, graft, Races of the Dragon
Scout 10 (blindsense), Complete Adventurer
Warlock 6, Complete Arcane, voidsense invocation, 30'
blindsense, wild feat, CV
Dragon Disciple 5 (ECL 10), DMG, 30 feet, 60 feet at level 10
Ardent Dilettante 9, ecl 14, Planar Handbook
Dragonborn template (mind aspect), Races of the Dragon, at 15 HD gain blindsense 30 feet
Sacred Fist 6, ecl 11, Complete Divine, 10 feet
Dungeon Delver 5, ecl 12, Complete Adventurer, 30 feet
Disciple of the Eye 5, ecl 10, Races of the Dragon, 30 feet or plus 30'
Atavist 5 (insightful spirit), ecl 10, Races of Eberron, 5'
Ardent Dilettante 9, ecl 14, Planar Handbook, 10 feet
Geomancer 9 (stage 5 drift), ecl 15, Complete Divine, 30'
Deformity (Tongue), vile feat, Heroes of Horror, 30'
Yrthank Mask, soulmeld, Magic of Incarnum, 10' or more, see text
Soulsight, incarnum feat, Magic of Incarnum, 5' or more, use as move action, see text
Elder Spirit, soulmeld, Dragon Magic, 5'/essentia
Voidsense, Dragonfire Adept invocation, ecl 6, Dragon Magic, 30'
Cyre Scout 7, ecl 10, Eberron: Dragonmarked, variable range and duration, see text
Focused Perception, feat, Complete Psionic, 60', see text

Special Mention
Lifesense, feat, Libris Mortis, living creatures provide points of illumination
Mindsight, feat, Lords of Madness (not really blindsense... arguably better, but requires telepathy)

Blindsight
combat awareness, feat, PHB2 - 5 feet
Eye of Gruumsh 5 (ecl 11), PrC, Complete Warrior, 5 feet, 10' at level 8
Henshin Mystic, PrC, Oriental Adventures
Shade Hunter 10 (ecl 15) , PrC, Champions of Ruin
Slime Lord, PrC, Player's Guide to Faerun
Blindsighted, weapon enhancement, Underdark
Scout 20 (CV), 30 feet
Blindfold of True Darkness, item, Arms and Equipment Guide, p.130, Grants 60' Blindsight and immunity to gaze attacks, but negates all other vision.
Tentacle whip, symbiote, Eberron Campaign Setting - the symbiote has blindsight 60 feet and can communicate what it "sees" telepathically
Cerebral hood, symbiote, Fiend Folio - see above
Shadow Mantle, soulmeld, Magic of Incarnum, 5' or more, see text
Shade Hunter 10, ecl 15, FR: Champions of Ruin, 30'
Orthos, vestige, ecl 17, Tome of Magic, 30'
Umbral Disciple 7, ecl 12, Magic of Incarnum, 10' per essentia
Scorpion Wraith 4, ecl 9, Eberron: Secrets of Xen'drik, 60' limited use, see text
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=662842

Tengu
2007-02-08, 11:47 AM
I agree with The Lo.... err, Bears With Lasers, Gamebird and Person_Man - just roleplay him as being blind, without any mechanical repercussions. His low dex wil give him a hard time anyway.

Ramza00
2007-02-08, 11:53 AM
If I were a player I would ask the DM to make being blind worth two flaws (and thus two feats). Of that list above Blindfold of True Darkness is very easy to get, it only costs 9000 gp and anybody with Craft Wondrous Item, Caster lvl 3, and See Invisibility can make it.

The_Werebear
2007-02-08, 11:54 AM
The prereqs for Earth Sense are 13 con and 13 wis, which you already have.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-08, 12:00 PM
Get goggles of continuous synesthete (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/synesthete.htm).

Quietus
2007-02-08, 12:03 PM
Ramza00 - Life sense isn't a bad option, either, however, I'd have to look at the feat itself - it may be something that seems like you do still "see", but you're seeing something else. Besides that, as Jacob stands now, I don't think it would feel right for him - tremorsense (or that Earth Sense feat, now that I've looked at it) would work just as well, in my opinion, and suits the character idea better.

::Edit:: Two flaws, eh? That... isn't a bad idea. I know I've read something involving flaws before, can't remember which book it was, but it would certainly be nice if I could talk to my DM and get him to sweeten the pot a bit by throwing me some Earthsense.

Person_man - I'm not intending to insult or belittle anyone's disabilities with this character. I know it's a stereotype, but aside from the blind-fight feat and the Alertness alteration, he hasn't really gotten anything "for free". Instead, he's worked for the past fifteen years to get to the level he's at now. Everything he has is a result of hard work, not handouts. Part of his personal code, in fact, is not to accept handouts just 'cause he's blind - he's put enough work into overcoming that weakness that he doesn't want special treatment.

King_RexII, I'm really not concerned about the skill penalties; They make sense to me. Things like the free blind-fight feat, and the amount of training he's put in, represent his "lessening of penalties", through training and accustomization. Maybe in the future, the DM will give me the 5' blindsight feat for free, if I'm lucky, but I'm not going to lean on him for it.

Also, someone mentioned gouging out eyes if his sight was restored - not quite. The DM and I spoke about that for a while, and it was determined that since he can't see, he wouldn't be able to know when to close his eyes against, say, a blinding sun. Should his magical blindness ever be broken, if at any point he spends time in the desert, he's going to have the blackness of the world go away, and instead see nothing but white everywhere. He carries a blindfold with him, though he doesn't use it, because he knows that some people are a bit creeped out by the way he seems to be staring ahead all the time; If ever his magical blindness was removed, he would put that on to cover the blinding brightness of the world. And if BOTH were somehow fixed, I can't imagine that he would really feel comfortable in a world he could see, any more. Being blind is so much a part of who he is, that if he weren't blind, his entire worldview would change - he'd rather just wear the blindfold at that point.

OzymandiasVolt
2007-02-08, 12:13 PM
To the people suggesting abilities that let you see in darkness and "see" life force: those won't work because he's BLIND. He can't see in the dark if his eyes don't work. Life force makes creatures glow. He can't see glowing creatures if his eyes don't work.

And while Yuki's comment was harsh, it was also exactly what I think every time I see this thread pop up on a board.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-08, 12:15 PM
To the people suggesting abilities that let you see in darkness and "see" life force: those won't work because he's BLIND. He can't see in the dark if his eyes don't work. Life force makes creatures glow. He can't see glowing creatures if his eyes don't work.

And while Yuki's comment was harsh, it was also exactly what I think every time I see this thread pop up on a board.

Hence, Synesthete.

Ramza00
2007-02-08, 12:17 PM
Flaws are located here.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm

And it wasn't life sense I was thinking of, it was mindsight (life sense requires no con score), it isn't a good idea for I just reread the feat and it requires telepathy.

Ramza00
2007-02-08, 12:18 PM
To the people suggesting abilities that let you see in darkness and "see" life force: those won't work because he's BLIND. He can't see in the dark if his eyes don't work. Life force makes creatures glow. He can't see glowing creatures if his eyes don't work.

And while Yuki's comment was harsh, it was also exactly what I think every time I see this thread pop up on a board.

Perceiving a bright light against a dark background isn't seeing :smallwink: You are still blind.

Quietus
2007-02-08, 12:36 PM
Haha... the flaws idea is amusing. Since I'd have to (essentially) give up more than I gain... the inability to see in combat is "balanced" by my free blind-fight feat, and all of those skill penalties I have would, by those rules, qualify me for a few extra feats... probably two more, since even among the skills I've taken, three of them are taking the penalty. It'd be tempting... I didn't realize, at first, that being blind gave those penalties, that was found when I was skimming the "Vision" section of the PHB. Thankfully my blind-fight feat negates any AC issues, but I did feel it appropriate to inform the DM that I just got a lot less impressive.

Maybe, given that, we'll be able to work something into the story... for now, my character's abilities have defined who he is. But since Jacob's meeting up with Keri at least two, probably three times over the course of his career (Hah, yeah right!), perhaps each time he meets her, she can pass along an ability to him? I particularly like that idea... do our questing, show up there, spend a week doing regular training (frigging balancing..) and teaching Jacob some new neat little maneuver that helps offset his blindness. That'd be awesome - aside from the blindsense/tremorsense that I'm interested in, what other abilities do you guys think would fit?

Indon
2007-02-08, 12:37 PM
Quietus, I don't know what your DM would think of homebrewed classes, but your character's plight reminded me of my entry in a homebrewed class creation competition centered around the senses (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31800), in which my entry was an order of monks who were blind that they could see greater truth.

The minimum level to enter the class is 5 (requires 8 ranks Listen), though.

OzymandiasVolt
2007-02-08, 12:44 PM
Perceiving a bright light against a dark background isn't seeing :smallwink: You are still blind.

SEEING a light against a dark background is. They LITERALLY shed light to you, as described in the feat in question. Meaning if you're blind you can't see 'em. Sorry.

Caelestion
2007-02-08, 12:55 PM
Obviously, that depends on degrees of blindness. Perceiving shades of light only is legally blind, but I'm assuming that most people treat D&D blindness as complete inability to see anything.

Ramza00
2007-02-08, 01:09 PM
Obviously, that depends on degrees of blindness. Perceiving shades of light only is legally blind, but I'm assuming that most people treat D&D blindness as complete inability to see anything.

Legal Blindness is 20/200 eyesight. That means a blind person has to be 20 feet away to see something a normal person can see 200 feet away (Imagine a billboard.) In other words under the legal definition you some people can still see things (not just shades of light) but its very very bad.

What you do in your D&D game is up to you.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-08, 01:13 PM
Legal Blindness is 20/200 eyesight. That means a blind person has to be 20 feet away to see something a normal person can see 200 feet away (Imagine a billboard.) In other words under the legal definition you some people can still see things (not just shades of light) but its very very bad.

What you do in your D&D game is up to you.

*revels in his 20/13 vision*

Quietus
2007-02-08, 01:19 PM
Indon - that's a VERY interesting prestige class, very tempting... though unfortunately, with a ten-level progression, it would preclude me from gaining the benefits of higher-level Monk stuff, namely the Abundant Step class feature that's so important to his advancement. And I doubt my DM would let me take one level of a homebrew class that would give me blindsense 60, blindsight 20, uncanny dodge, and +2 to all saves, before returning to ultimately become a level 19 Monk/level 1 Disciple of the sightless way. Seems a bit cheesy to me.

By the way, for the purposes of this character, "Blindness" is defined as a complete inability to see anything - the optic nerves connecting his eyes to his brain have been magically broken. For visualization purposes I assume he sees what I would percieve as complete blackness, but that's not because he's seeing it, it's because he isn't seeing anything. If he were to have a Remove Blindness/Deafness spell successfully cast on him, however, then he'd be able to make out distinctions in light... barely.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-08, 01:22 PM
Quietus--it's not "cheesy" if it's offsetting a completely crippling penalty.

Quietus
2007-02-08, 01:32 PM
For this particular character, no, it isn't really cheesy - but in general, any character that relies on striking their target with a weapon would love to take a single level outside of their usual class progression and gain those benefits - along with Blind-fight, which I already have.

And so far, being blind hasn't been nearly so crippling as you might believe it to be. I've only had one combat, admittedly, and I did get pelted with bolts, but that's because I played it stupidly - on purpose, since Jacob had never been in a real fight aside from those with his mentor before. Jacob currently has a +6 grapple modifier, which is pretty impressive for a 1st level character, so as long as he keeps away from big things, he won't have a problem. For the kobolds and animals that we'll be running into for the next little while (my DM LOVES kobolds....), that grapple check means as long as I can grab hold of something, I can fight it. You can't fail to hit something you're bear-hugging.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-08, 01:34 PM
And so far, being blind hasn't been nearly so crippling as you might believe it to be.

...you've never LARPed blindness, have you?

Also, I've made some Blindness Adaptation (http://www.corporation.walagata.com/fax/wiki/index.php/Disability_Feats) feats.

oriong
2007-02-08, 02:27 PM
And so far, being blind hasn't been nearly so crippling as you might believe it to be. I've only had one combat, admittedly, and I did get pelted with bolts

Maybe this is why?

If it's not crippling outside of combat that's because there aren't mechanics to cover the fact that you will continusly lose your way, run into things without a cane or other tool, get terribly confused, and can't read at all. Blindness is only 'not crippling' because you're not being forced to deal with it outside of combat.

Dude, in all honestly you're doomed in combat. DOOMED. If you don't die it's mostly because the DM is taking pity on you, and you will almost never contribute meaningfully except from lucky chance. And you know what? You can get a magic item that gives you dimension door you don't need abundant step.

I'm all for background and motivation but yours seems to translate into "kill this character ASAP"

Gamebird
2007-02-08, 02:56 PM
Dude, in all honestly you're doomed in combat. DOOMED. If you don't die it's mostly because the DM is taking pity on you, and you will almost never contribute meaningfully except from lucky chance. And you know what? You can get a magic item that gives you dimension door you don't need abundant step.

While what you say is true and in most cases I'm against the "My character has a horrible flaw that's totally negated by mechanics, yet I'm still ansty and cool because of it" syndrome, there is a possible fix to this.

If everyone playing takes a similarly gimped character (LA, poor stats, whatever), then the DM can just adjust downward the CR. Careful encounter design might work out. Admittedly they would have trouble with a lot of encounters standard for D&D, but wouldn't a totally blind adventuring group be sort of cool? I'm not sure what kind of encounters they could have, but the DM could challenge them just by sending them to the freaking general store to pick up bread, some yarn and a few wax tablets.

DM: "So, you're going down a flatish, gravelly area you believe is the road. You hear the sound of approaching hoofbeats, fast, as if the animal is panicked. What do you do?"
or
DM: "The shopkeeper hands you six coins as change. He tells you it's four silver and two copper."
or
DM: "You're walking along the road minding your own business when suddenly Bill is hit in the head with something... maybe a clod of dirt. Take 1 point of subdual damage. You hear a young boy snickering off to your left. What do you do?"

This could be the stuff of campaign gold!

Quietus
2007-02-08, 02:58 PM
Uhh... Fax, those Blind feats are seriously... wow. If I were to use those I'd want to make a Blind Human Fighter, ASAP. Level 3 with blindsight 60' and +20 Listen? YES, PLEASE! That seems incredibly powerful.

Oriong - The character concept came first, everything else followed. The only reason we haven't done much combat is because we've been in combat-light zones... we could've been in two more combats, both with kobolds (we had to go from my hometown, Kallen Moor, to a place called Emlac, which took us through a forest filled with kobolds), but my awesome hearing detected them preparing to attack us from well beyond their sight range. The only reason we had the one fight was because I rolled a natural 1 on that Listen check.

Yeah, it'd be a pain in the ass to get around normally - under normal circumstances, he'd have to pay a guide to get him where he needed to go. He can't tell where he's going otherwise. But as far as moving around towns goes, he's got a stick (his quarterstaff), he can tell where the edge of the roads are, and that's good enough. I know that my effectiveness is reduced in combat, but providing I don't roll a natural one on my Listen checks, I can still tell more or less where any non-sneaky character is, and so I'm only 3/4 as effective as a sighted Monk - I effectively have a 75% chance to hit. Plus, I'm immune to gaze attacks, and visual illusions. Plus, if I can make it to level 21, by that point have +10 wisdom and an item that gives +20 listen, I'll have a Listen mod of +71 (with the Epic SKill Focus Listen I'd take) - 9 or higher on a d20, and I can detect even auditory illusions as fake, because my hearing is just that good.


::Edit:: Gamebird - it really is a lot of fun to try and get around town blind. One of the things that Jacob did to improve his Balancing skills was Keri forced him to try and cross a 45 foot long log. DC 15 to balance on it while it's wet - it was over a river, with some drop below it (or maybe off a waterfall nearby, can't remember which right now). Normal person could manage it, after a while, with no training and average dex. Jacob, on the other hand, being clumsy and at the time untrained, had -6 Balance penalty... and where it would take a normal person three checks to get across (half speed while balancing), it'd take Jacob six, because you also need to go at half speed when you can't see. He'd have ... I believe I worked it out as a one in sixty-four million chance of rolling six natural 20's in a row to do it. Did I mention he HATES balancing with a passion?

When he griped about it, Keri would tell him to shut up and get back on the log... and if he went to leave, Keri would simply disappear (yay for high level monk sneakiness!), leaving Jacob alone in the wilderness. Bloody woman.. haha. Sure, it's something that most people would find annoying, but silly little things like that add flavor... and then, as you said, just trying to get around town is annoying. I knew my hometown perfectly, and it still took forever to get around.

The Great Skenardo
2007-02-08, 03:00 PM
Here's a thought for you; if you're concerned about the proliferance of kobolds with crossbows in the campaign, you may wish to consider asking your DM if Deflect Arrows can be altered moderately for the purposes of your character. something like, if you make a set DC listen check, you can use the feat (the check would be repeated for each usage). (This despite the Feat's caveat that you must be aware of the attack) something like a DC 25 might be appropriate at first to detect an incoming arrow or similar. The upshot of this is that as your Listen modifiers increase, it eventually becomes a given and you obtain full use of the feat (because I'm pretty sure you're not going to be taking Combat Reflexes as your 2nd-level bonus feat)

I disagree that playing a blind character is fraught with futility; it all depends on the environment that the DM is thrusting your character into. As long as you're not penetrating the Iron Keep of the Doom Devils or something, then I think this premise could make a good role-playing story.

A Note: Certainly the abilities of a Monk can be almost completely mimic-ed through magical means, but that's not the point; Low-level characters almost certainly don't have access to that kind of money, and even if they did, buying a magical item in lieu of training defeats the purpose of becoming a monk in the first place.

Quietus
2007-02-08, 03:20 PM
Skenardo - that's kind of how we were going to work things, except instead of using a Listen check (since my modifier for Listen is going to get very high, very quickly - by level four I'll be getting a minimum of 20 if I don't roll a natural one), we're basing it off of the number of ranks I have. If the ranged attack originates from within 10 feet of me per rank I have in Listen, then I'll be able to use Deflect Arrows to turn it aside. When I first gain Deflect Arrows, it'll work on anything within 50 feet - close enough for kobolds in trees, but if someone's a hundred feet away with a longbow, I won't be able to properly detect and react that a shot's been fired. I'm perfectly happy with that arrangement, it makes sense to me.

Quietus
2007-02-09, 01:22 AM
Well; Some discussion has been had with my DM. As expected, homebrew prestige classes won't be allowed, but through some rambling that happened, the idea of an exotic weapon came up. I've always been a fan of the Naginata - essentially, it's an oriental Glaive. Picture Here. (http://juicy.nuxit.net/_/kirmaha/p/naginata/naginata_metal.jpg)

Stat-wise, it would be treated much like the Katana is in comparison to the Bastard Sword, but using the Glaive as a base - it would be a two handed reach weapon, 1d10 damage, with a x3 multiplier. Given how we spoke about it, it would be considered a Monk weapon and I would gain proficiency in it for free, due to the special training I would be recieving. If I were doing this, I would certainly take some kind of feat that at the very least extends the range of my Blind-fight feat; My DM's suggested one that increases it's radius to 10 feet, while reducing the miss chance to 25% (and I'd still get to reroll). I'm thinking, if Jacob turns out to be more martial than I expected, I could pick up this weapon and that feat at level 6; Any suggestions for directions I can take things if I do this?

Gamebird
2007-02-09, 11:45 AM
Any suggestions for directions I can take things if I do this?

I have yet to understand why you've gimped your character by taking full penalties for being blind, when you could merely say you're blind and role play penalties when it fit the story.

Another issue is game balance. Are the other PCs being allowed to invent unbalanced weapons cooler than any in the PHB? How do they feel about blind-boy getting all the neat toys? If there are no other players, then whatever you and your DM work out is fine - he can say the tarrasque volunteers to be your seeing-eye dog and that would be kosher.

I suppose in your position I'd definitely take the weapon and aim at getting expanded critical later in life. A two level dip into Fighter at some later advanced level might be useful for the two feats to really make that weapon work. But usually with a straight class monk, getting distracted into any weapon other than your unarmed strike is a bad idea. At low levels it's okay because you're trading up a d6 unarmed strike for a d8 or in this case d10 melee weapon. At higher levels your unarmed strike outstrips that d10 with a x3 crit. As I think about it I'll reverse my earlier statement and say don't waste a feat on the weapon. Just take it and use it until your unarmed strike is better, then drop the weapon.

Quietus
2007-02-09, 12:53 PM
I'm doing it this way because roleplaying him as being blind, but not actually applying the penalties, wouldn't be treating him as though he actually WERE blind; Instead, it would be playing a monk who gimps himself when his player feels safe. Yes, mechanics-wise, he's a pretty poor choice; he's really just a normal guy who had an unfortunate run-in when he was younger, and has spent most of his life compensating for that. He's not really fit to be an adventurer, and he KNOWS that, but he's doing it anyway because he's tired of being treated differently due to his disability, and for better or worse, wants to prove that he is capable of handling things.

As for the "Unbalanced weapons" - what's so unbalanced about it? It's just a freakin' Glaive. I don't threaten anyone next to me with it, and as you said, my Unarmed damage will equal or outstrip it. I'll have to take a number of feats just to be able to use it effectively, as well, at the very least the Blindfight 10' that the DM created so that I can tell if people are AT the range I could hit them with this. Once they come into actual melee range, I'll be making unarmed strikes anyway. If it's because it's a weapon that isn't natural to a Monk, our group has a house rule - we gain one free proficiency, as it helps us to customize our characters slightly. Normally it's taken at first level, but that didn't suit this character. If this weapon feels like a proper fit when I reach Keri, then she'll give me the proper training to use it, and I'll take my proficiency then.

I'm afraid I just don't see where you get the idea that it's "Cooler than any in the PHB". Really, I could pick up a masterwork Glaive and do the exact same thing. I doubt I'll ever get the opportunity to use it in a flurry, anyway, so it wouldn't make much of a difference at all.

Gamebird
2007-02-09, 01:33 PM
I didn't know any of the monk weapons came anywhere close to d10, reach, x3 crit multiplier. Maybe I should reread them.

Honestly though, the main problem is I can't understand where you're going with the character, mechanics-wise. I can't give you story-based advice because I don't know the game world or your character's personality. Game mechanics advice has already been given - you'd be better off doing just about anything else than what you're doing. You agree. I think everyone else who has posted agrees. And you say you're going to stay the course that you've already started. Well - that's cool. I think every character I've played in 3.X was pretty f'd up from an optimization standpoint.

So if I can't persuade you to change to a more mechanically-favorable approach, and I don't know enough about the game world to say anything meaningful about it... then what should I do to be helpful?


Instead, it would be playing a monk who gimps himself when his player feels safe.

As opposed to a monk who gimps himself all the time? How is that better? If you really want to gimp yourself, how about you drop all the Listen bonuses and be deaf as well as blind. I'll bet that would be a very challenging, gimped character. (yeah, I know, sarcastic, but really I'm just confused about where you're headed with this. Something that might help me gage your situation a lot is knowing if this is a game that involves other players and what their reaction/input to the situation is.)

oriong
2007-02-09, 01:43 PM
d10 damage and x3 critical is far, far more powerful than any monk weapon by several degrees.

Honestly, if the DM is allowing you this 'improved blind fight' at 10 ft range and only 25% miss chance why not just ask him to drop the miss chance alltogether? Honestly. You'd still be spending a feat just for the opportunity to be somewhere on par with the other PCs and you would still have a net disadvantage.

Quietus
2007-02-09, 01:45 PM
Mechanics-wise, I don't have an actual direction. That's why I made this thread, because as I saw things, I would probably end up taking a pile of noncombat feats, and I wanted to see if anyone else had options that I hadn't thought of.

My character's goals, as they stand right now, are :

A) Find the Ghoul Touched, and get them to give us the information we need regarding Viola's father.
B) Hone his intuition until he can sense attacks more accurately (AKA gain level 5 monk)

Once B) is accomplished, he's going to make his way to the Glass Spire Monastary, where he'll meet up with his mentor, Keri. Jacob doesn't know what's going to happen there, only that she has more training for him - I personally happen to know it's going to involve a lot of crap he doesn't like, namely balancing training, and the potential addition of proficiency in the Naginata.


C) After accomplishing B, Jacob will set out once more to continue training. His next aim : Abundant Step. If they haven't finished with A) yet, they'll set out once more to accomplish that. Otherwise, there'll be something else my DM comes up with.

Oriong; That's why it would cost more. Glaive + 600 gold to make a Naginata. As for the damage, by the time I get it, my unarmed strike damage will be nearing 1d10, if not already there, depending on how many levels we gain in the meantime. The Reach and x3 crits seem to be the issue, but in essence, I'm also burning an Exotic Weapon Proficiency slot to get it.


::Edit:: From the Arms and Equipment Guide : Three section staff. 1d8, x3 multiplier, and monks are automatically proficient with it and can use it for a Flurry. I'm expending an Exotic Weapon Proficiency slot to be able to use the naginata, which is 1d10 with reach.

Gamebird
2007-02-09, 01:46 PM
Is there anyone else in this game with you?

purple gelatinous cube o' Doom
2007-02-09, 01:52 PM
I can understand you having Dex be that low due to being blind, but a monk with dex that low will be dead in no time. With the little to no armor avalible, a high dex is usually recommended. Personally, I would switch the scores for dex and charisma. If someone who's been blind almost all of their life, by the time they're grown they will have learned to adapt somewhat at least.

Quietus
2007-02-09, 02:01 PM
Gamebird - yes, one person. A half-elf Ranger named Viola. She's going with two-weapon fighting, I believe.

Purple; I considered that, at first. Frankly, I'm tired of having ugly characters with weak personalities. Yes, it's a nasty, nasty hit; That's -3 AC doing it the way I chose. However, when I was building the character, he was initially going to be a ladie's man, despite being blind. I altered that when the DM and I started talking about his past training, and changed his Diplomacy ranks out for Balance. He's still pleasant to be around, he just hasn't spent as much time working on his diplomatic abilities. Suits the character far better. His adaptation comes in the form of the skill ranks he's invested, so that he's not a complete stumbling retard. He's actually really surprisingly good at climbing, jumping, and swimming... he loves to swim, in fact.

Gamebird
2007-02-09, 02:03 PM
What does Viola's player think of your character's disability and its impact on their ability to adventure?

oriong
2007-02-09, 02:12 PM
I can understand that you seem to want to stick to your character's goals, and this percieved persona you have for them. But it's akin to someone with no arms talking about how they want to be a baseball player, not necessarily impossible but very, very unlikely.

You've got a pair team here, a crippled monk and a ranger. Neither are terribly masterful combatants at the best of time (especially a low-mid level ranger) but when the monk is blind it becomes...a problem. You've got two people on the team, no healer, and no real backup except one another. The only reason you'll survive to get your final goal is if the DM takes pity on your and fudges a lot of rolls.

It's your character and your choice but it seems kind of pointless to ask advice on this. You've already put a gun to the monk's head, and most of our advice seems unsuitable to you. So at this point it seems like we can pretty much just wish him a quick and painless death.

Quietus
2007-02-09, 02:12 PM
So far it hasn't been a problem. They've worked out a system for moving around; He can follow her by the sound of her voice (taking ten on Listen = DC 24 check, so as long as she's talking, he can follow her - he could probably even follow her by the sound of her footsteps), so he doesn't get lost. As far as combat goes, she's had no problems so far - as mentioned before, I managed to avoid a couple of combats due to hearing them long before we got there. He does have to move a bit more slowly, but aside from a speed reduction, so long as he has someone travelling with him, he's good. We simply assume that Jacob and Viola make small talk wherever they go when they're travelling. So far, we both have added to the team; She's got the travelling skills (high survival and the like), and Jacob is essentially the sentry. Even when he's sleeping, he adds 4 to his Listen checks.


::Edit:: Oriong - the DM I'm playing with isn't an idiot, he isn't going to send things at us that would be suited for a perfectly balanced party of 4 people. Yes, we're trying to do something stupidly hard for our group - we're ambitious. And yes, there's good odds we won't survive. But we're willing to TRY. I figure that when in combat, Viola will be doing most of the melee stuff that she can, while Jacob serves one of two purposes - either a backstop to her (fighting defensively while providing flanking, since with his blind-fight feat he does effectively threaten squares) to give her a potential +4 to strike, OR, finding the enemy spellcaster and pinning it so it can't cast.

Gamebird
2007-02-09, 02:30 PM
Tell me why you have the Listen-related feats and skills.

Quietus
2007-02-09, 02:35 PM
So that my character can function. Essentially, I treat everything in the world as being invisible - by using my listen skill, I can use audio clues to determine, generally, where things are, so long as they're making noise. For non-mobile things (roads and the like), I have my quarterstaff which I use as a modern-day blind man uses his cane.

Gamebird
2007-02-09, 02:51 PM
What do you mean by "function"? Your character could function fine without any of the Listen-enhancing feats or skill ranks. He'd be like any other blind person. You could still treat everything in the world as invisible, use audio clues to determine where they are... you just wouldn't be as good at it. Just like a blind monk isn't as good as a sighted monk.

purple gelatinous cube o' Doom
2007-02-09, 02:53 PM
having a low charisma doesn't mean your character is ugly or has a weak personality. It just means that he's doesn't have a lot of charm about him, nor are people drawn to him. Having a low charisma could mean he's shy, or just not much of a people person to name a few examples. But by no means does having a low charisma mean he doesn't have strong personality. If you really wanted to go for the ladies man thing, why not go for a bard. that would fit the character concept much better than a monk.

Quietus
2007-02-09, 03:02 PM
Gamebird - I'm well aware that he could "function" without the ranks in Listen - it was a poor choice of words on my part. The entire idea for this character was to give him this disability (hence the backing-it-up-with-mechanics portion), and then develop him so that despite that, he might still be capable of handling himself, even in rough situations. That, perhaps, is what would be the best description of what kind of advice I'm looking for is - given the restrictions I've put on my character, what sorts of things could he do to handle himself in a rough situation, and come out on top?

Purple : I know that some people follow the Charisma =/= Appearance stuff. However, my DM does, and I tend to lean in that direction myself. The high charisma fit the character idea far better than the low; People ARE drawn to him. He's a nice guy, and sure, he gets annoyed that people try to treat him differently if they notice he's blind (he can function well enough, due to his Listen bonus and such, that the less perceptive people around him sometimes don't). However, once he starts talking to people - something he has no trouble doing, and so shyness isn't part of the equation - he IS a little more interesting than the average joe. I decided to go for the roleplay/story hook than for the mechanically superior option, in this case, because I liked how it worked out for him.

oriong
2007-02-09, 03:10 PM
Well, honestly there just aren't mechanics to get your character anywhere up to par. They'll require pure houseruling and if you do that you might as well just ask for most of the penalty to be removed outright.

The only advice that we can give has been given already: get something to let you see. Whether it's an item of synethese or blindsight or what have you, just find some way to see. If you can do that then you really shouldn't be taking anymore feats either because they're simply vast wastes once you have sight. You will never be a great fighter since you've already lost two feats and have that 6 in Dex, but that's the best you can hope for.

If your DM won't allow a sight substitute, or you'd rather not do it, then the only thing I can reccomend is the feat 'hear the unseen' from complete warrior (I mentioned it on the first page or so). It still won't 'save' the character. He will never be effective, he might be lucky, he might survive but he will only win if his enemies are few and weak and his ally picks up his slack.

If the two of you face a single CR 4 opponent (probably a 'boss' level fight considering your party number and character levels) then you are, without help, probably doomed. A CR 3 opponent played intelligently could possibly TPK you.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-09, 03:13 PM
The entire idea for this character was to give him this disability (hence the backing-it-up-with-mechanics portion)

No, see, the mechanics are just numbers. A miss chance doesn't mean your character is blind--it just means he hits less often (the same effect as, say, having lower stats, or not having an optimized build) than he would without, mechanically (because, after all, HP is abstract, and attack rolls are abstract, and you can roleplay the course of a fight however you want while only using dice rolls to tell you the final outcome).

Quietus
2007-02-09, 03:36 PM
If your DM won't allow a sight substitute, or you'd rather not do it, then the only thing I can reccomend is the feat 'hear the unseen' from complete warrior (I mentioned it on the first page or so). It still won't 'save' the character. He will never be effective, he might be lucky, he might survive but he will only win if his enemies are few and weak and his ally picks up his slack.

It's actually in Complete Adventurer (just went and looked for it); I must have missed you typing that somewhere. And that's basically what we've been houseruling my character as being capable of doing - I technically don't meet the prerequisites yet, but still, that's pretty much it. So I suppose, in that case, that I did get two feats out of being blind; Blind-fight, and Hear the Unseen. Nice to know. :smallbiggrin:

As for a single CR 4 fight... yeah, we're two level one characters. If I were playing a character who wasn't crippled, we'd have a small chance of surviving that - VERY small. Two level one characters SHOULD have an incredibly tough time against a CR 4 creature. As things stand now, if we fought something like that, I'd expect to lose. I'd still try my best, however, and if things didn't go according to plan... well, that's a shame. Good job, Jacob, you did what you could.

Bears with lasers - I dont' see where you get the idea of roleplaying a blind character without actually giving them any sort of penalties, aside from maybe the inability to make spot checks. It wouldn't feel right to me, and my DM would call BS on me when I never missed in combat. I'm not playing Daredevil; I'm playing a blind guy. He isn't a superhero, he's just a stubborn man who refuses to let a lack of sight slow him down.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-09, 03:45 PM
Bears with lasers - I dont' see where you get the idea of roleplaying a blind character without actually giving them any sort of penalties, aside from maybe the inability to make spot checks. It wouldn't feel right to me, and my DM would call BS on me when I never missed in combat. I'm not playing Daredevil; I'm playing a blind guy. He isn't a superhero, he's just a stubborn man who refuses to let a lack of sight slow him down.

Here's where I get the idea: you can play a blind character in a systemless game. You can play a blind character in a rules-light system, including one like Wushu where you can describe what you want, mostly, and the die-rolling decides not the details of happens but the overall outcome.

Why do you need mechanical penalties to roleplay a blind character? How does a miss chance make him any more of "a stubborn man who refuses to let a lack of sight slow him down"? Could you not roleplay the same character in a different, more rules-light system, or without one entirely?
You're playing a monk. A first-level monk, apparently. "Never missing" won't be a problem. I don't see how missing, say, 50% more often (to pick a random number) somehow makes any difference in Roleplaying a Blind Guy. Isn't the important stuff the character and how he deals with things, and isn't hitting, picking random numbers, beating AC 14 60% of the time rather than 40% with your attack rolls pretty much irrelevant in that regard?
How often the dice say your attack roll beats the guy's AC doesn't have to translate into hits and misses, either. A fight in which you miss two times and hit five times, dropping your enemy, but get hit twice for five damage, total, could be described as a short scuffle where you take a hard shot to the ribs as you close in but then end the fight with two well-placed blows, or as a protracted affair where lots of glancing blows are struck before your opponent trips over his own feet, letting you kick him unconscious.

Quietus
2007-02-09, 03:54 PM
I'm not sure exactly what you're arguing. It seems to me like you're suggesting that simply roleplaying and picking a random miss chance is somehow superior to roleplaying and using the game's miss chance. I don't really see a difference there, aside from me letting the dice to the talking, instead of cutting a certain number of strikes out of those that hit. I can see some sense in what you're talking about, but I just don't see what, precisely, you think the difference would be from me saying "I land four blows, but one misses because I'm roleplaying a blind guy" and me rolling the dice and letting the 25% chance I miss come up randomly.

OzymandiasVolt
2007-02-09, 04:10 PM
Bears. In DnD, being blind gives mechanical penalties just like being blind IRL gives you mechanical penalties. If you were blind your entire life, maybe the DM will let you ignore some of them. But the mechanics aren't just "some thing" that hovers around ruining your fun. The mechanics are the physical representation of the universe you are in. If you fall off a building, you take damage. The roleplaying says you fall, the mechanics deal the damage.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-09, 04:12 PM
I'm suggesting you roll without the miss chance, and say that the ones that missed were because you're a blind guy (or describe fewer hitting, but do the same amount of HP damage). You're already playing an 8-dex monk, you don't need to make things any more difficult crunch-wise for the sake of roleplaying when the roleplay part can be, well, just roleplayed out.

Gamebird
2007-02-09, 04:31 PM
6 Dex, but yeah, same thing.

Here's the thing: you're in a two person party. A lot of things might float in a two person party that won't in a larger game, because you have fewer people to convince that you're not playing unfair. Let's imagine your blind monk is level 8 instead of 1, traveling with a level 1 sighted ranger. Your monk has a high BAB and due to extensive training and pseudo-magical hearing, can hit things statistically as often as a sighted person. Now due to a strange curse called plot-device-itis, you otherwise function as a level 1 monk. So you're blind, but statistically you fight as well as a sighted person.

How is this a problem?

To elaborate on Bear's scenario, let's say you are using your cane to tap out the road, walking along with Viola making small talk. A monster leaps out of the woods at the pair. A fight follows. You make your rolls normally - so does Viola. You conduct yourself in combat, statistically, like a sighted monk. You explain your ability to do so as the product of living with blindness for many years, undergoing supernatural monk training, investing your mystical energies in a better "feel" for the life energy and magical energies of the world around you. Your friend Viola hasn't done this, but she's not blind, so she performs, statistically, just like yourself in combat.

Your character doesn't know he's level 1. He doesn't know that after 5 or 10 or 15 years of monk training, he's level 1. Perhaps for him, becoming level 1 meant overcoming his disability. Perhaps for him, but not for other blind guys, he fights as well as a normal sighted person. This is a unique feature of the character. Think of it like this:

Blind, but not Stupid [Template]
Prerequisites: Character must be blind, a PC, and a monk [insert Listening feats here]
Affects: Character negates all penalties of being blind, except for abilities he would otherwise autofail such as Spot checks.
Level Adjustment: None.

Quietus
2007-02-09, 04:32 PM
That does make sense, on a great many levels; it would make the game much easier for me. However, then, what happens when, say, someone develops a Mass Blindness spell, and casts it on everyone in the party? Do I then start making normal miss chance rolls, because I got "more blind"? Or do I continue playing the way I have been, while everyone else has a 50% chance to miss?

I can see how your way would make things, mechanically, much better for my 6-dex monk. But it would bring up a number of issues in certain situations, and even though it's tempting to try and run with that, my DM wouldn't allow it. If I tried to suggest that sort of thing to him, he would laugh and inform me that if I don't like being blind any more, I can go and find someone to cast Remove Blindness on me.

Gamebird : Much as I'd like to do something like that, that also comes down to a DM thing. I'd LOVE to have something like that happen - but that still wouldn't make sense in some cases. For example, when jumping somewhere - it won't be long before I can make a 20-foot running long jump with ease (I'll have +8 to Jump as of level 3). How am I going to know how to land that jump? I wouldn't - because I can't tell where the roots, gravel, etc, happen to be there. Though, it would certainly be a tempting thing to speak to my DM about it. I don't expect he'd allow something like that, but maybe I could get lucky.

Gamebird
2007-02-09, 04:34 PM
You're just immune to visual affects. That's about equal to autofailing Spot checks, being illiterate and so on. If someone casts Blindness on you, there's no effect. Though if they cast Deafness on you, you'd take the penalties for being blind and deaf, because your ability to "see" depends on your sight.

Areas of magical silence will f you up.

Quietus
2007-02-09, 04:40 PM
Aye, areas of silence will certainly do a number on me. Which doesn't bode well for me; I know a few things about the world that we're in, and one of the DM's favorite places to send PC's is the Forest of Silence - if you're lucky, you might hear someone screaming in your ear as a whisper. That place has claimed a great many PC's before, including one of mine. Hopefully they don't get the bright idea to hang out in there... thankfully, that place is only a few day's travel from the monastary I'm supposed to go to.

oriong
2007-02-09, 04:47 PM
Yeah, seriously. the non-mechanical effects of being blind more than make up for it. Besides, you're a monk, how likely is it that you'll actually fail the will save against these things? All you get is immunity to something you'd be highly resistant to anyway. the one area you have a true advantage in is darkness, and even that's minor.

By the same token you have a ton of things to deal with even though you don't necessarily miss every time or become a rogue's whipping boy. You can't read, you can't recognize faces, you can't determine many important environmental features. etc. Not to mention like gamebird said, silence and so on will kill you (think incorporeal enemies)

Gamebird
2007-02-09, 04:47 PM
Gamebird : Much as I'd like to do something like that, that also comes down to a DM thing. I'd LOVE to have something like that happen - but that still wouldn't make sense in some cases. For example, when jumping somewhere - it won't be long before I can make a 20-foot running long jump with ease (I'll have +8 to Jump as of level 3). How am I going to know how to land that jump? I wouldn't - because I can't tell where the roots, gravel, etc, happen to be there. Though, it would certainly be a tempting thing to speak to my DM about it. I don't expect he'd allow something like that, but maybe I could get lucky.

Any check the DM deems would be an auto-fail, you'd still fail. Besides, nothing about being blind prevents you from jumping. It just means you're most likely to fall prone at the other end. Don't put any ranks in Jump - people without any ranks in it fall prone if they fail a jump, or something like that (assuming they don't plummet to their doom). Or if you do want to put ranks in it, just say that you fall prone automatically at the end of any jump.

Quietus
2007-02-09, 04:54 PM
OzymandiasVolt - somehow I missed your post in all of this! Sorry! Your point is kind of the way that I see it, and in a great many ways, I think that "roleplaying" yourself being blind, giving no penalties, and describing your low attack rolls as being due to the lack of sight is really just looking for a reason to ignore the penalties you should have. I knew full well going into this my attacking abilities would be crippled; I'll live with that. I think saying "Yeah, I'm blind! So, uh... I just get different descriptions when I miss!" is a little lame. I'm blind, and I'll take it like a man.

Oriong - I don't think that the Darkness thing is minor. I'd actually eventually like to get something that projects a sphere of darkness around me, after I get my blindfight 10' feat. I have a 12.5% chance of missing; My enemies have a 50% chance of missing and have major penalties to a lot of things. I'm used to it, hell, that darkness doesn't affect me in the least. My enemies, however... that's an entirely different story. Even if I can only use said item 3/day, that's still three fights where I go from being backup for the ranger to being the primary damage-dealer, because I'm the only one capable of handling myself in that situation.

Gamebird - I was actually planning on making it so that I take the same penalty on Jump as those who are untrained do. That is, if I fail by 5 or more, I fall prone. If the area at the end of the jump is particularly difficult, I might do so more than that. I can still jump far, but I have a harder time landing my jump if the ending area isn't optimal.