Supplement Help

[IntenseWizardry]

Hello, I am going to be buying about 150 dollars worth of supplements in a few days. I already have the CRB, the APG, NPC Codex, and the Bestiary 1 and 2. I don't want to buy anymore bestiaries, so the list I have right now is this:
(Buying from Amazon, prices include shipping)

Ultimate Combat $27.42
Ultimate Magic $26.66
Ultimate Equipment $28.58
Game Mastery Guide $26.67
Inner Sea Guide $23.98
_____________________
$133.31 dollars
The exact amount I have is about 135 dollars.
What do you think?

[ArendK]

If you are a veteran DM, you could probably get away without the GM Guide for the most part; It's a very good read, and does have a lot of tips and tricks that GM's might overlook (like party dynamics at the table and such) just reading the rules themselves.

That being said, it's not a bad book. Personally, I'd look into the Advanced Race Guide. A lot of options for the core and the "featured" (unusual, but not ridiculous) races.

Inner Sea Guide is awesome especially if you are wanting to play in Golarion. It's a kitchen sink world, but I think it does it in a lot more appealing fashion than say Forgotten Realms. Most, if not all historical and fantasy archetypes have a place, and unique entities can easily have a little refluffing and be valid. By far my personal favorite setting next to Eberron.

Not missing out on much with the Bestiaries; some cool odd creature concepts, and some nice tributes (Cthulu in 4, for example). But nothing needed.

The Ultimate Series is good; if you are starting a game with new players, having those three might be like drinking from a firehose though.

[IntenseWizardry]

If you are a veteran DM, you could probably get away without the GM Guide for the most part; It's a very good read, and does have a lot of tips and tricks that GM's might overlook (like party dynamics at the table and such) just reading the rules themselves.

That being said, it's not a bad book. Personally, I'd look into the Advanced Race Guide. A lot of options for the core and the "featured" (unusual, but not ridiculous) races.

Inner Sea Guide is awesome especially if you are wanting to play in Golarion. It's a kitchen sink world, but I think it does it in a lot more appealing fashion than say Forgotten Realms. Most, if not all historical and fantasy archetypes have a place, and unique entities can easily have a little refluffing and be valid. By far my personal favorite setting next to Eberron.

Not missing out on much with the Bestiaries; some cool odd creature concepts, and some nice tributes (Cthulu in 4, for example). But nothing needed.

The Ultimate Series is good; if you are starting a game with new players, having those three might be like drinking from a firehose though.
I'm actually a first time GM, I've been playing for a year, but this is my first time GMing.

[Eldaran]

I'd recommend Ultimate Psionics if you're at all interested in that sort of thing. It's pretty expensive, but you get a ton of great new classes, an interesting subsystem, new races, tons of archetypes, and is just a very well made book overall.

[ArendK]

Then the GM guide might be a solid investment;

On the point about Ultimate Psionics, I wasn't even aware that was released. Shows how much I've been paying attention I guess.

[Xerlith]

I'd wait for Path of War and drop the Ultimate Equipment or another Ultimate book. As they're OGC, they can be found online on D20PFSRD. But that's me and I use laptop when GMing.

[IntenseWizardry]

I see where you guys are coming from, and I was looking at Psionics, but my OCD won't allow me to buy any 3rd party material before getting all the core books. I don't know why, stupid OCD.

[Keneth]

I'd buy Ultimate Campaign instead of Ultimate Equipment.

[jjcrpntr]

I'd wait for Path of War and drop the Ultimate Equipment or another Ultimate book. As they're OGC, they can be found online on D20PFSRD. But that's me and I use laptop when GMing.

I just read a bit of the path of war stuff. It's interesting. I loved the book of nine swords classes, especially the warblade. As a new DM myself I'd be worried about bringing these in as I'm still learning classes/rules of the game and I'd be wary of introducing new stuff. I will look for this when/if they release in book form.

[IntenseWizardry]

I am a bit of an Equipment junkie, but I will definitely get the Path of War when I finish the core books. So far the third party books I Want are

Thunderscape
Ultimate Psionics
Path of War

[Eldaran]

One point to consider, especially for Pathfinder, is how often you need to reference the book. Because nearly all the material is online on the SRD, you don't necessarily need a book that you're only going to look at rarely. Things like feats and items you generally don't need to check much (from my experience), whereas things like spells and classes you tend to reference a lot.

[IntenseWizardry]

One point to consider, especially for Pathfinder, is how often you need to reference the book. Because nearly all the material is online on the SRD, you don't necessarily need a book that you're only going to look at rarely. Things like feats and items you generally don't need to check much (from my experience), whereas things like spells and classes you tend to reference a lot.

I am familiar with the SRD, but I do not like electronics at my table, plus I love buying the books themselves. :D

[Keneth]

I do not like electronics at my table

How on earth do you survive in the 21st century without electronics at your table?

Perusing books takes forever, especially if you don't know where to look.

[IntenseWizardry]

How on earth do you survive in the 21st century without electronics at your table?

Perusing books takes forever, especially if you don't know where to look.

I meant as in I don't allow phones and laptops on my table usually because my players are easily distracted. I only allow them if we have a specific mechanics question. And for me, flipping through books is fun. Don't sue me, I'm weird.

[QuackParker]

I'd honestly say skip the Paizo books as the vast majority of their content is online at the Paizo site or D20PFSRD. Also, my personal belief is introducing Psionics is a death curse. Over complicates EVERYTHING. I would say invest in PDFs for any concept you don't think is well covered in the core books. For instance, I think the Witch PC is less than fully developed so I invested in PDFs on Witch feats, archetypes, hexes, and items. I've done the same for clerics to make them more robust. Books on ideas for treasure hoards, traps, items etc. can come in handy when planning a session. Only spend the big bucks on the Paizo hardcovers if you care about the pictures.

As for books at the table, I too like having the reference. But honestly, they have become an even bigger distraction than the electronics. "I want to summon a monster, can you pass Bestiary 3 so I can really mull over my options?" "I'm thinking of buying new equipment, can I see the Core, Ultimate Equipment, and the Race guide to waste a half hour looking at race-specific belts?" "Awwww sweet! Next campaign I'm going to use this Wizard achetype..." Take a no nonsense approach to players using their electronics for other things - Youtube, music, Facebook, gaming - and deduct experience. Increase the penalty substantially if it repeats. Like, "Tom, I see you are playing Monster hunter on your DS under the table, minus 4,000 XP for you."

[Keneth]

Over complicates EVERYTHING.

Psionics don't really complicate anything. The only annoying thing about psionics is that the rules are often written even more unclearly than those of Paizo, leaving the GM to do a lot of table rulings.

And XP penalties are a horrible idea, especially in PF where all players are expected to have the same amount of XP. Players not paying attention at the table is usually the GMs fault anyway.

[QuackParker]

Psionics don't really complicate anything. The only annoying thing about psionics is that the rules are often written even more unclearly than those of Paizo, leaving the GM to do a lot of table rulings.

And XP penalties are a horrible idea, especially in PF where all players are expected to have the same amount of XP. Players not paying attention at the table is usually the GMs fault anyway.

I contend all players should have AROUND the same amount of XP. Players that contribute more to role play and don't misbehave have more than earned attaining that extra level a session early. The GM is hardly always at fault for the inattention of sub par player behavior.

We had one very problematic player in our group who would constantly complain, do other activities on his laptop, and be a generally unpleasant person to be with. For each infraction - be it whining, arguing aggressively, or doing other things - he'd earn a tally. Each tally carried a 100 xp penalty. 10 in a session and he was out for the game. The system helped curb problems at our table tremendously.

Conversely, sometimes our players ignore the role play aspect, so we will routinely give the player that showed the most improvement in that department a bonus. Sometimes several if they went out of their way to engage in a plethora of unique ways. That way, not just combat is made worthwhile.

[Keneth]

Of course he was out of the game, you were punishing the character for the player's faults. You've failed to engage him in the game, instead relying on punishment that was sure to push him away.

Obviously, not every game is for everyone. Sometimes you just can't play well with certain people, but that's one of the worst ways of negative reinforcement you can come up with in a game.

And I simply cannot accept that promoting experience disparity between player characters could ever be a healthy thing in a game. Pathfinder removed XP costs and penalties for a good reason.

It's one thing to reward players for good roleplaying and another to make players feel obligated to do it just so that they don't lag behind. Do you also only award XP for kills to the character who killed the monster and not the rest? Because that's the same thing. Players should feel that active roleplaying is rewarding, but everyone should be equally rewarded for it. Plus, not everyone is comfortable with social interactions, not to mention there are plenty of character personality types that simply don't mesh well with that kind of game style. Sometimes you just want to play the quiet warrior and that should be okay. Let others do their thing and you will do your thing. A win for the party should be a win for everyone after all.

Don't get me wrong, everyone has their own way of running games. If it works for you, that's fine, but you shouldn't be so keen on recommending a system with glaring flaws without due consideration.

[QuackParker]

Of course he was out of the game, you were punishing the character for the player's faults. You've failed to engage him in the game, instead relying on punishment that was sure to push him away.

Obviously, not every game is for everyone. Sometimes you just can't play well with certain people, but that's one of the worst ways of negative reinforcement you can come up with in a game.

And I simply cannot accept that promoting experience disparity between player characters could ever be a healthy thing in a game. Pathfinder removed XP costs and penalties for a good reason.

It's one thing to reward players for good roleplaying and another to make players feel obligated to do it just so that they don't lag behind. Do you also only award XP for kills to the character who killed the monster and not the rest? Because that's the same thing. Players should feel that active roleplaying is rewarding, but everyone should be equally rewarded for it. Plus, not everyone is comfortable with social interactions, not to mention there are plenty of character personality types that simply don't mesh well with that kind of game style. Sometimes you just want to play the quiet warrior and that should be okay. Let others do their thing and you will do your thing. A win for the party should be a win for everyone after all.

Don't get me wrong, everyone has their own way of running games. If it works for you, that's fine, but you shouldn't be so keen on recommending a system with glaring flaws without due consideration.

I find this system to be fair, effective, and reasonable. XP disparities are a natural occurrence as every member of the party is not always doing the same thing. Take for example if the party's cleric goes into town and negotiates a peace treaty between two rival militias. Mr or Mrs Cleric has earned something in addition to the others for going above and beyond. Likewise, if Mr or Mrs Druid creates a negative atmosphere or behaves inappropriately, he or she has merited negatives. Your question about combat varies, my usual approach is any member participating in the combat wholeheartedly gains equal XP as the others. However, if one sits out or another engages in a solo duel, XP should reflect that.

Disparity is a healthy, competitive element that encourages participation. I continue to strongly encourage this system.

[Keneth]

If I were in your game, I would probably leave after the first session. I don't want to compete with my party members, I have the whole world to compete against. It only encourages participation in a specific brand of player.

[IntenseWizardry]

If I were in your game, I would probably leave after the first session. I don't want to compete with my party members, I have the whole world to compete against. It only encourages participation in a specific brand of player.

I have to say, I agree. Although my GMing knowledge is limited, I like to award equivalent XP to all players. In fact, I go beyond that and I don't count XP for the purpose of leveling up. I prefer to level up the players at moments that makes sense, after a quest arc or something. Also, thanks for the responses. What are your guys favorite 3rd party products?

[ScubaGoomba]

Since you prefer not having things digitally, I would suggest spending the money on Bestiaries. Having a book of monsters to reference while DMing is very handy and the information from the other books can be printed when you're prepping sessions. Definitely get them later, but the Bestiaries, I think, would be the best options for books to have hard copies of.

[AbsolutGrndZer0]

I think your current list is pretty good, although I agree you might switch out for Ultimate Campaign now, and get UE later. As for the GameMastery Guide, I agree it's great but I think also for veteran DMs as it has more than just tips and tricks. It's where they put the optional insanity rules and other such niche things, however those can be useful. For example, I am running a game tomorrow where one of the characters concepts is that she's a high level adventurer, however she was fighting the Old Gods and after being afflicted with the Nameless Dread Spellblight (somthing in Ultimate Magic) she now has permanent amnesia. So, shes level 1 again, as per the amnesia rules. :D Of course, the veteran DM in me is modifying the rules slightly in that even if she regains her memory she won't get the lost levels back (as written, if you were level 10, got amnesia and reverted to 1, then leveled back up to 10, if your memory is restored you jump to 20.. at least as I understand it, kinda crazy!)

As for the hardcopy vs. digital debate, I too prefer hardcopies, however with all the books I have and the fact that I rarely play at my house, even if I only bring the books I need, my Dodge Intrepid isn't big enough to carry all the books I might need, so as much as I hated to do so, a few months ago I canceled my subscription to the Pathfinder books and now for the most part just buy the PDFs, except for a select few like the Bestiarys (still need to get 4, both HC and PDF) and the new Inner Sea Gods I want in HC

Oh and also add Advanced Race Guide to your list too. Even if you don't use it to allow players to play exotic things, it makes for richer NPCs when you can throw a changeling who's mother is a sea hag at them in an aquatic campaign, just as an example.

[jjcrpntr]

If I were in your game, I would probably leave after the first session. I don't want to compete with my party members, I have the whole world to compete against. It only encourages participation in a specific brand of player.

as a player the individual xp thing doesn't bother me too badly although it does encourage people to go off on their own tangents trying to earn special xp. We had a few arguments at our table resulting from this. Example, we were attacked in the night by a giant boar. We all prepared for combat and the barbarian said "wait.. can't the druid just talk to the thing?" So the druid walked up, calmed and spoke to the boar. Fight avoided. The DM said he'd award us all xp as though we had won the fight. The barbarian argued (briefly) that he should get extra xp for roleplaying out the plan. So in that instance I hate it.

As a person now DMing pathfinder, i hate the concept of giving out individual xp. In general in our gaming group (both 3.5 and pathfinder) if you miss a session you are given the XP that everyone else got but none of the loot. That's not entirely fair and I'd like to stop doing it if people wouldn't flip their **** about it as personally I think if you aren't there you shouldn't get the XP. But it is MUCH easier to just keep everyone at the same XP, let the party level together and reward people who are there with more/better treasure.

[BWR]

The list you have looks pretty good.

In any case, I'd go for the Game Mastery Guide if you're a new GM.
There are lots of tips and tricks for everyone, but especially people new to GMing. Lots of the common questions that pop up are handled, like how to design adventures, where to find inspiration, how to handle problem players, various types of games (sandbox, etc.) linear vs. non-linear adventures, suggested resources etc, Not perfectly, obviously, but always with useful advice. It's one of the best introductions to GMing I've come across.

I'd also say that Ultimate Campaign is less useful for a first timer unless you want to have mass combat, downtime and domains and various other sorts of rules that traditionally don't show up immediately in a campaign's lifetime.

Ultimate Combat and Ultimate Magic have a lot of nifty stuff, and if you don't have a campaign setting in mind, you can do far worse than pick up the Inner Sea book (it's basically Pathfinder's version of Mystara).
Ultimate Equipment is nice but if you have easy internet access during game time it's pratically wasted money thanks to the PRD (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/), but lacking that I'd say it's more interesting and useful than the Advanced Race Guide, based on how my games have gone. And the most useful stuff of the ARG is the new mechanics for existing races, not new playable races. In either case, both are nice.

[Shinken]

I'd wait for Path of War and drop the Ultimate Equipment or another Ultimate book. As they're OGC, they can be found online on D20PFSRD. But that's me and I use laptop when GMing.

So is Path of War, so...