Nergal's snake

[jere7my]

Now that it's been confirmed, both in-strip and on the forum, that vampires in OotS have a demon in the driver's seat, I wonder if we have an answer to the question of Malack's species. It's a common thread in vampire lore for very long-lived vampires to take on some of the physical characteristics of their occupying demon—see the Master on Buffy, e.g.—and Hel refers to Malack, or the demon within him, as "Nergal's snake." It could be that Malack, once upon a time, was a perfectly normal lizardfolk, but centuries of occupation by a snake-demon caused his limbs to shrink and his skin to blanch. This would explain the fact that he referred to himself as a lizardfolk while looking unlike any lizardfolk we've seen, without having to introduce yuan-ti or ophidians or somesuch.

[zimmerwald1915]

Now that it's been confirmed, both in-strip and on the forum, that vampires in OotS have a demon in the driver's seat, I wonder if we have an answer to the question of Malack's species. It's a common thread in vampire lore for very long-lived vampires to take on some of the physical characteristics of their occupying demon—see the Master on Buffy, e.g.—and Hel refers to Malack, or the demon within him, as "Nergal's snake." It could be that Malack, once upon a time, was a perfectly normal lizardfolk, but centuries of occupation by a snake-demon caused his limbs to shrink and his skin to blanch. This would explain the fact that he referred to himself as a lizardfolk while looking unlike any lizardfolk we've seen, without having to introduce yuan-ti or ophidians or somesuch.
How does this jive with Durkon's vampire-spirit, as seen in Durkon's headspace, being shaped more or less like Durkon?

[Gift Jeraff]

I like the idea that his species or subspecies is extinct ("...a tribe that no longer exists.").

[jere7my]

How does this jive with Durkon's vampire-spirit, as seen in Durkon's headspace, being shaped more or less like Durkon?

Well, if Hel is closely affiliated with dwarves, she might have dwarf-shaped spirits to hand. Or that might not be the spirit's true form; it might be mimicking Durkon now, and shift to something more terrible as the years progress. Certainly the spirit wasn't born looking like Durkon's dark twin, right?

[zimmerwald1915]

Well, if Hel is closely affiliated with dwarves, she might have dwarf-shaped spirits to hand. Or that might not be the spirit's true form; it might be mimicking Durkon now, and shift to something more terrible as the years progress. Certainly the spirit wasn't born looking like Durkon's dark twin, right?
Hel is the god of undeath for the entire Northern pantheon, not merely the keeper of the dishonored Dwarven dead. And she made Durkon's vampire-spirit; it wasn't just hanging around or waiting to be summoned. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?339912-Vampire-question-settled&p=17327934&viewfull=1#post17327934) Though that might be an explanation. The death god making the vampire-spirit can give it any shape he or she wishes, so there doesn't have to be a consistency of shapes across cases.

[Kish]

Well, if Hel is closely affiliated with dwarves, she might have dwarf-shaped spirits to hand. Or that might not be the spirit's true form; it might be mimicking Durkon now, and shift to something more terrible as the years progress. Certainly the spirit wasn't born looking like Durkon's dark twin, right?
Ah, the next vampirism schism is here.

Anyone who is not Rich can only guess, but my guesses are:
1) The spirit was, indeed, born looking like Durkon's dark twin.
2) The spirit is hours old.
3) If Malack had not drained Durkon's blood, the spirit would never have been born at all.
4) When the Order stakes the High Priest of Hel, the spirit will be destroyed.
5) The spirit Malack looked, had we ever seen behind his eyes, just like Malack, was ~200 years old, and was born within three days of the day a certain unnamed lizardfolk shaman died. Now that spirit is destroyed and gone; efforts to contact him would be futile and, depending on what method was used, might wind up being redirected to the True Neutral afterlife, to encounter the spirit of a lizardfolk shaman who bears no love for Malack or any of his allies.

[ti'esar]

Interesting theory, but it's a bit circular. Malack's physical form was snakelike and referred to as such by several characters, so it's natural enough to assume that's what Hel meant.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Interesting theory, but it's a bit circular. Malack's physical form was snakelike and referred to as such by several characters, so it's natural enough to assume that's what Hel meant.

This is pretty much what I thought. I thought that "snake" was meant to be an insult to Malack (and Nergal), referring to his snake-like body.

[zimmerwald1915]

2) The spirit is hours old.
Be fair, it's been three days since Durkon got vamped.

[jere7my]

Hel is the god of undeath for the entire Northern pantheon, not merely the keeper of the dishonored Dwarven dead. And she made Durkon's vampire-spirit; it wasn't just hanging around or waiting to be summoned. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?339912-Vampire-question-settled&p=17327934&viewfull=1#post17327934) Though that might be an explanation. The death god making the vampire-spirit can give it any shape he or she wishes, so there doesn't have to be a consistency of shapes across cases.

I'm not married to the theory, though I've been curious about Malack's species for a while. But these spirits could have a natural form they begin to revert to over the centuries; they get squeezed into a mold that's shaped like their victims at creation, and over time the mold begins to weaken.

I do think the red eyes and albinism are probably a change from the shaman's appearance; otherwise it's a bit on the nose.

[Emperordaniel]

There's a Lizardfolk serving as a judge in the Empire of Blood who looks pretty similar to Malack shown here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0734.html) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0735.html). I've always assumed he's of the same species/subspecies/variety as Malack was.

[zimmerwald1915]

There's a Lizardfolk serving as a judge in the Empire of Blood who looks pretty similar to Malack shown here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0734.html) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0735.html). I've always assumed he's of the same species/subspecies/variety as Malack was.
What with the robe and the bench covering almost everything except the head and shoulders, the judge's lower body might look like anything.

[Emperordaniel]

What with the robe and the bench covering almost everything except the head and shoulders, the judge's lower body might look like anything.

True, but that won't stop my inner wild speculation about how the judge is secretly the grandson of Malack's father's brother's uncle's cousin's former roommate on his mother's side, twice removed. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :smalltongue:

[Keltest]

What with the robe and the bench covering almost everything except the head and shoulders, the judge's lower body might look like anything.

His tail is sticking straight up, almost behind his head in one panel. Unless he has an incredibly long tail and likes uncomfortable positions, he has legs.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

His tail is sticking straight up, almost behind his head in one panel. Unless he has an incredibly long tail and likes uncomfortable positions, he has legs.

He and Malack could be from a closely-related species then. Or perhaps the resemblance is there because there are only so many ways to draw lizards. :smalltongue:

[Kish]

The judge might also be a vampire.

If the Empire of Blood's justice system is vampires who drink the Blood of the Condemned all the way down, that would go some ways to explaining the "everyone gets convicted and sentenced to death" thing, wouldn't it?

[Peelee]

Now that it's been confirmed, both in-strip and on the forum, that vampires in OotS have a demon in the driver's seat, I wonder if we have an answer to the question of Malack's species. It's a common thread in vampire lore for very long-lived vampires to take on some of the physical characteristics of their occupying demon—see the Master on Buffy, e.g.—and Hel refers to Malack, or the demon within him, as "Nergal's snake." It could be that Malack, once upon a time, was a perfectly normal lizardfolk, but centuries of occupation by a snake-demon caused his limbs to shrink and his skin to blanch. This would explain the fact that he referred to himself as a lizardfolk while looking unlike any lizardfolk we've seen, without having to introduce yuan-ti or ophidians or somesuch.

Can you extrapolate more on this "common thread in vampire lore?" I've never heard of the attribute that makes the body look like the spirit.

Also, why does everyone assume that The Giant's vampirism works just like the Buffy vampirism? Is it so difficult to think that maybe he has his own vampirization method that has a similar ideal (evil spirit in the driver's seat) without taking other aspects of it? It's not like Buffy is the be-all end-all definitive sourcebook for all things vampire..y.

[jere7my]

Can you extrapolate more on this "common thread in vampire lore?" I've never heard of the attribute that makes the body look like the spirit.

Well, I already mentioned the Master, whose makeup was designed to be batlike on the theory that the demon within had corrupted his body over the millennia. But it's pretty common for the head vampire of the nest to be a) ancient and b) somehow creepy in appearance, because their humanity has been leached away over time. This lets you fill the movie with humanoid vampires, then still have a big scary monster reveal in the closing scene.


Also, why does everyone assume that The Giant's vampirism works just like the Buffy vampirism? Is it so difficult to think that maybe he has his own vampirization method that has a similar ideal (evil spirit in the driver's seat) without taking other aspects of it? It's not like Buffy is the be-all end-all definitive sourcebook for all things vampire..y.

I don't think I'm assuming anything; I think I'm proposing a theory to answer the question, "Why doesn't Malack have legs?" His facial structure looks just like Gannji's (and the judge's, as someone pointed out), but he has no legs. Why? Is he a different species (despite calling himself a lizardfolk)? Was he just born legless? Were legless lizardfolk more common a long time ago, and most of the legless lizardfolk died out? Or was he born with legs, and centuries of occupation by a snake-demon caused his body to alter?

We don't know the answer, but given that "corruption of the body by the demon inside" exists in the world of vampire lore, I don't see any reason to write it off as a theory.

[zimmerwald1915]

Well, I already mentioned the Master, whose makeup was designed to be batlike on the theory that the demon within had corrupted his body over the millennia. But it's pretty common for the head vampire of the nest to be a) ancient and b) somehow creepy in appearance, because their humanity has been leached away over time. This lets you fill the movie with humanoid vampires, then still have a big scary monster reveal in the closing scene.
I can't speak for Peelee, but as an ignorant layman interested in exploring the topic (and consuming ever more media), I'd like to hear some specific examples besides Buffy.

[jere7my]

I can't speak for Peelee, but as an ignorant layman interested in exploring the topic (and consuming ever more media), I'd like to hear some specific examples besides Buffy.

I've seen a lot of vampire movies, and it's hard to keep straight which makeup F/X went with which vampire, but: Barlow in the first adaptation of Salem's Lot was an ancient master vampire who'd grown to be Nosferatu-ish, unlike the younger vampires. Sylvia Marsh in the movie adaptation of Lair of the White Worm was the ancient master vampire, and was also more snakelike than any of the other vampires, though she could also conceal herself as a human. (Incidentally, that's well worth watching to see the new Doctor, Peter Capaldi, playing bagpipes in a kilt.) Night of the Cobra Woman isn't strictly speaking about vampires, but the titular cobra woman required the blood of the living to maintain her human form against the influence of the snake demon within her.

Anyway, this seems like a digression. As long as we have at least one concrete example, it's a legitimate entry in the lore of vampires. (Heck, even if we didn't have any examples, it could still be something Rich thunk up himself.)

[Peelee]

As long as we have at least one concrete example, it's a legitimate entry in the lore of vampires. (Heck, even if we didn't have any examples, it could still be something Rich thunk up himself.)

"A legitimate entry" does not make a "common thread." Your examples do help (I've never seen Buffy and have no intention to change that, so the additional context you gave was also helpful), but I think I'm still of the opinion that Malack was simply a more snake-like lizardfolk than Gannji or other legged lizardfolk.