marrulurk la +1 -- how?

[rrwoods]

The first Junkyard Wars optimization challenge highlighted this interesting-looking race, with sneak attack +2d6 and some other interesting assassin-related abilities.

And +22 worth of ability adjustments, at Level Adjustment +1.

Am I missing something? This seems patently ridiculous. Even if we attribute all the class-feature-like racial traits and bonus feats to the three racial hit dice (which seems about fair), we still have +2/+6/+4/+0/+6/+4 for LA +1. Am I missing something? Is this simply not as powerful as I think it is? Or is this race just completely bonkers?

[Silva Stormrage]

The first Junkyard Wars optimization challenge highlighted this interesting-looking race, with sneak attack +2d6 and some other interesting assassin-related abilities.

And +22 worth of ability adjustments, at Level Adjustment +1.

Am I missing something? This seems patently ridiculous. Even if we attribute all the class-feature-like racial traits and bonus feats to the three racial hit dice (which seems about fair), we still have +2/+6/+4/+0/+6/+4 for LA +1. Am I missing something? Is this simply not as powerful as I think it is? Or is this race just completely bonkers?

It has 3 racial HD so its ECL 4. It has good stat adjustments and is actually one of the few monsters with racial HD that is worth playing frankly I think it would make a kick ass sword sage. But still I don't think it's overpowered I mean three racial HD is a lot to swallow on most builds and on any caster builds it's nigh impossible to recover from.

[OldTrees1]

Those 3RHD are not as good as 3 levels of Rogue since skill points suffer so much. That factored into the +1 LA for mere stats (instead of Hide in Plain Sight or something) makes it a good/great race (which is rare for a WotC monster race).

[rrwoods]

Oh right -- skill points. How does one determine the skill points a monster race has, and how does one determine the class skills?

[Techwarrior]

It's based off of the type (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#types) of creature. There's also a handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?207928-Urpriest-s-Monstrous-Monster-Handbook) for it. Basically, any skill listed in it's stat-block is a Class skill, and only those skills.

[CyberThread]

Do you think with a decent disguise score they could pass off as an exotic dog. To avoid the ahhh monster. That dm like to usesagainst unusual races.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Give it one level of the Half-Fiend Template Class (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031010a) (and you never have to spend more levels on it (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a)) to get the Outsider creature type among other benefits. Per the Half-Fiend template (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfFiend.htm) you keep your original type's BAB, HD, and base saves, but you get the Outsider's eight base skill points per HD. You can also use this variant (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630x&page=1) to base it off a naturally sneaky fiend (Babau) and get an expanded class skill list for those racial HD. You would also replace some of default half-fiend spell-like abilities with some that a Babau gets, such as See Invisibility and Dispel Magic.

That Marrulurk Half-Fiend 1 gets the following:
Small Outsider (Augmented Monstrous Humanoid)
3d8 HD of Outsider, which gives base saves Fort +1, Ref +3, Will +3, BAB +3, (8+Int)x6 skill points, class skills Bluff, Climb, Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Open Lock, Search, Slight of Hand, Spot, Survival, and Use Rope.
All the standard Marrulurk traits, with an additional +2 Dex, +1 natural armor, 2 claws at 1d3 damage, Darkvision 60 ft., and spell-like abilities: Darkness 3/day, Poison 3/day once you reach 7 HD, and Unhallow 1/day once you reach 13 HD, save DCs are Cha-based.
Level Adjustment +2

[CyberThread]

Extraplaner. Is it inherited or gained. Could qualify for lesser rules

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Extraplaner. Is it inherited or gained. Could qualify for lesser rules

Exraplanar depends entirely on what plane you're originally from. A creature native to the material plane, with the half-fiend template, is still native to the material plane.

[KillianHawkeye]

Extraplaner. Is it inherited or gained. Could qualify for lesser rules


Exraplanar depends entirely on what plane you're originally from. A creature native to the material plane, with the half-fiend template, is still native to the material plane.

Yes, every creature is native to a particular plane. Most creatures are native to the Material Plane, but Outsiders and Elementals (among other things) are usually not (except for Native Outsiders). Regardless of what plane you are from, whenever you go to a different plane you gain the extraplanar subtype. So humans are [Extraplanar] in Hell and devils are [Extraplanar] in Greyhawk, but neither is [Extraplanar] when it's where it's supposed to be.

Note that [Extraplanar] is not the opposite of [Native], since some people get confused about that. Native Outsiders like Aasimar and Tieflings are simply Outsiders who are mortal and native to the Material Plane; they gain the extraplanar subtype when traveling the planes just like a human does. Angels and devils are not Native Outsiders when on their home planes, they just lose their [Extraplanar] status.

[Lans]

Where was murrulurk from?

[Rubik]

Where was marrulurk from?Sandstorm.

[Lans]

Thanks, it looks quite nice compared to a 4th level rogue, what it looses out in skills points it looks like it will largely get back from its ability scores, with its bonus to strength and dex he gets a good hit bonus.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Thanks, it looks quite nice compared to a 4th level rogue, what it looses out in skills points it looks like it will largely get back from its ability scores, with its bonus to strength and dex he gets a good hit bonus.

You can buy off the level adjustment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm). After you gain three class levels (at ECL 7) you can pay 6,000 xp to remove that +1 LA. You can spend your next level to gain Half-Fiend 1 as I pointed out, which will retroactively change your skill points for those racial HD. After gaining three more class levels (at ECL 10) you can spend 9,000 xp to remove the +1 LA from that. Since you'll be lower level than the rest of the party you should catch back up in just a few levels.

[CyberThread]

retroactivily, you would gain nothing. Just like when you get more INT, you don't get to gain extra skill points in your past. Just becuse you get a higher points through a different racial type, you don't get extra skill points .

[OldTrees1]

retroactivily, you would gain nothing. Just like when you get more INT, you don't get to gain extra skill points in your past. Just becuse you get a higher points through a different racial type, you don't get extra skill points .

So you would have to start at ECL 5 (Marrulurk 3+1 / Half-Fiend +1) and buy off after 6 (ECL 11) and 9 (ECL 13) class levels

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

retroactivily, you would gain nothing. Just like when you get more INT, you don't get to gain extra skill points in your past. Just becuse you get a higher points through a different racial type, you don't get extra skill points .

When a template changes your creature type, if it would change a value for your existing hit dice then the change is retroactive. Becoming an undead creature changes all your existing hit dice to d12's. Becoming an outsider via half-fiend changes your base skill points per racial hit die to those of an outsider, for all racial hit dice possessed by the creature, per the half-fiend template.

[lunar2]

half fiend is an inherited template. without DM fiat, you can't gain the half fiend template after starting play. you certainly don't get to pick when you take the LA. also, only taking one level of a template class is a good way to get books thrown. you either are a half fiend, or you are not, there is no in between. RAW is, you have to take the entire monster class before you gain any class levels (unless you have no RHD, or your only RHD come from something like lycanthrope, in which case you get 1 class level), and template classes are a subset of monster classes.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

RAW is, you have to take the entire monster class before you gain any class levels...

Absolutely untrue, I already provided a link to this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a) (7th bullet point):
"Characters are not required to complete all the levels of a given template class in uninterrupted succession."

[CyberThread]

half fiend is an inherited template. without DM fiat, you can't gain the half fiend template after starting play.


Absolutely untrue, I already provided a link to this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a) (7th bullet point):
"Characters are not required to complete all the levels of a given template class in uninterrupted succession."


you missed Lunar more correct point, Biff.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

you missed Lunar more correct point, Biff.

I also provided this link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031010a) earlier, you can indeed gain Half-Fiend after you've started playing.

[CyberThread]

Some depraved mortals voluntarily subject themselves to evil power in hopes of becoming more like fiends, and occasionally such tampering results in a half-fiend. Such beings can advance in the half-fiend template class, just as natural-born half-fiends can if they wish to develop their powers more slowly. Because almost all half-fiends are evil, the DM is free to require that a good or neutral character who advances as a half-fiend become fully evil by the time she has completed the class progression.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Some depraved mortals voluntarily subject themselves to evil power in hopes of becoming more like fiends, and occasionally such tampering results in a half-fiend. Such beings can advance in the half-fiend template class, just as natural-born half-fiends can if they wish to develop their powers more slowly. Because almost all half-fiends are evil, the DM is free to require that a good or neutral character who advances as a half-fiend become fully evil by the time she has completed the class progression.

"Characters are not required to complete all the levels of a given template class in uninterrupted succession."

You never have to take more than the first level of the template class, and it's not until you take the fourth level of it that you would be required to switch your alignment to evil.

Why are you so insistent that there must be something wrong with what I've suggested?

[CyberThread]

Why are you so insistent that there must be something wrong with what I've suggested?

I didin't i posted the bit , that agreed with you.

[lunar2]

it's still a variant rule system, and one by SKR, at that. he apparently doesn't even know how ECL works, since he thinks becoming an afflicted wereboar only raises your ECL by 2. again, taking only one level of a template class is a good way to get books thrown, especially when you are doing it specifically because you only want the advantages of the creature type, which is the express reason why you have to finish a monster class before moving on to class levels. this is cheese of the stinkiest order. so yeah, i'm going to stick with primary source on monster classes here. you start a monster class, you finish a monster class.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

it's still a variant rule system, and one by SKR, at that. he apparently doesn't even know how ECL works, since he thinks becoming an afflicted wereboar only raises your ECL by 2.

The werecreature template classes come in two parts: The level-adjustment portion, and the animal hit dice portion. You have to scroll down the page to find the rest of it.

[lunar2]

The werecreature template classes come in two parts: The level-adjustment portion, and the animal hit dice portion. You have to scroll down the page to find the rest of it.

no, i'm talking about in the first article, where he said a ranger who gets bit by a wereboar goes from ECL 10 to ECL 12, completely ignoring the 3 RHD he gains in addition to the +2 LA. honestly, if you are going to forget one part of the template, forget the LA, not the RHD.