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Melrob
2007-02-08, 11:53 AM
Seeing as all the lich topics have been coming thick I thought I'd ask a bit of advice :P

Shortly I'll be undergoing the 'standard' lich process and have been deliberating over the best ways to protect my phylactery. I've fought liches before and know that any sensible lich-hunt will do it's research and try it's utmost to discover the location/design of the phylactery before they even set out to kill the lich itself.

So any ingenious suggestions out there?

The best I've come up with thus far is casting sequester and (gah..at work the name escapes me but it basically allows you to summon the item unless it's being held - in which case you know that it's being held) on it. Putting it in a glove of storing, placing the glove on a simulacrum and casting imprisonment on the simulacrum in the middle of nowhere...burying both until I need to recast the above spells again.

Should the spot be found and the simulacrum freed the first thing it will do is bring forth the phylactery (at which point I will be made aware someone is handling it) and hurl it so that I may immediately summon it to my side. Of course I may just summon the simulacrum...not sure yet.

Can anyone think of anything better or embellish on the above at all? The succesfull lich is the careful lich =P

The_Werebear
2007-02-08, 11:56 AM
Make it into the coffin which will be burried to fake your death (of course, with a spell to mask it). In the coffin will be a copy of your spellbook, backup gear, and a scroll of teleport. Just make sure to refresh the scroll for the next time you die.

Illiterate Scribe
2007-02-08, 12:02 PM
I've heard good things about going taking a bag of holding, walking into an antimagic field, and putting the phylactery in. Then walk out. While the bag's not in an antimagic field, the phylactery will be unreachable, but when the bag is in an antimagic field, the phylactery won't be identifiable as one.

Rahdjan
2007-02-08, 12:04 PM
Spoiler alert for anyone reading "War of the Spider Queen" series.








The lich in that series (his name escapes me) put his phylactery inside a giant Iron Golem fashioned after a spider. Even though gromph was able to destroy it, it was still a pretty good idea.

mikeejimbo
2007-02-08, 12:06 PM
I'm not sure I remember correctly, what are the limits of the phylactery? Is it worthless if any part of it breaks, or are you all right as long as most of it is intact? Is there a size limit?

If possible, I have a funny idea: Make the Earth your phylactery.

hewhosaysfish
2007-02-08, 12:09 PM
One important thing is to agree with the DM where you will reappear once killed.
Because if you've done all that simulacrum imprisonment malarkey and then appear inside the imprisonment bubble then you'll feel really gutted.

Caelestion
2007-02-08, 12:16 PM
In 2nd Edition (which had SO much more information on the whole idea), a lich's phylactery can only possess bodies at up to 60 feet range and, while it can receive the soul at extraplanar ranges, it cannot allow the soul to possess corpses at extraplanar ranges.
(In 2nd Ed, a phylactery works by holding the lich's soul until a corpse ends up within 60 feet and then the lich can attempt to possess the body. If the lich succeeds, the corpse then alters to become identical to the lich's natural body.)

Gamebird
2007-02-08, 12:44 PM
Yes, discuss this with your DM beforehand, so you know how it works. It's important to know if you grow back slowly a la Xykon, or pop into existence all at once (with or without spells memorized).

Ideas off the top of my head:

-- Make the phylactery a gemstone and incorporate it into a trivial magical ring, something that anyone who killed you would probably sell to someone wimpier. Make sure to check with the DM about what Identify cast on such an item would reveal.

-- Put it inside of yourself in a difficult to access location, such as within the thigh bone or inside your skull (you're undead - you don't actually need marrow or a brain). This approach has its dangers, but benefits as well.

-- Put it on a gemstone, make the magic of it undetectable (Nondetection, Permanency, or research a variant), and sell it. Make no effort to keep track of it. On the up side, no one in the world will know where it is, which makes it difficult for divination to track it.

-- Disintegrate a shaft in an unused corner of your lair. At the end of it put ..

back later

Telonius
2007-02-08, 12:56 PM
I'm not sure I remember correctly, what are the limits of the phylactery? Is it worthless if any part of it breaks, or are you all right as long as most of it is intact? Is there a size limit?

If possible, I have a funny idea: Make the Earth your phylactery.
Unfortunately that's not possible. The lich has to make it himself.

SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm#theLichsPhylactery)says:


An integral part of becoming a lich is creating a magic phylactery in which the character stores its life force. As a rule, the only way to get rid of a lich for sure is to destroy its phylactery. Unless its phylactery is located and destroyed, a lich reappears 1d10 days after its apparent death.
Each lich must make its own phylactery, which requires the Craft Wondrous Item (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#craftWondrousItem) feat. The character must be able to cast spells and have a caster level of 11th or higher. The phylactery costs 120,000 gp and 4,800 XP to create and has a caster level equal to that of its creator at the time of creation.
The most common form of phylactery is a sealed metal box containing strips of parchment on which magical phrases have been transcribed. The box is Tiny and has 40 hit points, hardness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm#hardness) 20, and a break DC of 40.
Other forms of phylacteries can exist, such as rings, amulets, or similar items.

A nice idea would be to enchant a phylactery in such a way that destroying it brings significant harm to somebody. It's the center gem in a device that keeps the volcano from erupting; it's the magic item that's keeping the Big Evil Monster asleep and not eating the town; without it, the king dies of a foul poison. I would think that phylacteries can be further enchanted, just like other Wondrous items, so that could also mask the true nature of the phylactery.

Woot Spitum
2007-02-08, 01:02 PM
Make it part of a very nice magic item, one that anyone who picks it up will want to keep intact. If you can put it in an intelligent or cursed magic item that compells anyone who picks it up to do everything in their power to protect it, all the better.

Alex Kidd
2007-02-08, 01:15 PM
-- Put it on a gemstone, make the magic of it undetectable (Nondetection, Permanency, or research a variant), and sell it. Make no effort to keep track of it. On the up side, no one in the world will know where it is, which makes it difficult for divination to track it.

Good idea except nondescript gems tend to get cut when sold or put into jewelery, you'd have to make it something epic to stop anyone from cutting it. And a gem like that would likely be remembered.
Find a stable kingdom and make it out of currency, you'd want it durable so try to find a country where lead or something like adamantium is used. Many medieval civilisations had penalties for defacing coinage under lese majesty so it should be safe for a while. Maybe donate it to a greedy temple, with luck it will spend the next millenia or two in a treasury.

Make it resistant to acid and passing and throw it into a Tarrasque.

Telonius
2007-02-08, 01:18 PM
Minor flaw with that - you'd wake up inside the tarrasque, if you're defeated.

InaVegt
2007-02-08, 01:25 PM
Good idea except nondescript gems tend to get cut when sold or put into jewelery, you'd have to make it something epic to stop anyone from cutting it. And a gem like that would likely be remembered.
Find a stable kingdom and make it out of currency, you'd want it durable so try to find a country where lead or something like adamantium is used. Many medieval civilisations had penalties for defacing coinage under lese majesty so it should be safe for a while. Maybe donate it to a greedy temple, with luck it will spend the next millenia or two in a treasury.

Make it resistant to acid and passing and throw it into a Tarrasque.
Another idea would be to put the gem in a ring, and sell the ring.

Gezina van den Vechte, Fallen celestial, Champion of Hell

Indon
2007-02-08, 01:35 PM
How big is your Lich's keep, and how does he feel about bricklaying?

You could make a building magical simply to increase its' hardness and hit points (per inch?), or give it another more interesting ability. But make it minor, and make the walls _thick_.

And don't make it out of a precious metal. As strong as that +5 Adamantine Fort might be, the heroes are gonna wanna take it apart and pawn it off, which would be bad. Meanwhile, heroes generally just abandon stone dungeons when they're done with them.

A mildly magical building has the additional effect of playing around with Detect Magic spells in the area.

Gamebird
2007-02-08, 02:08 PM
Ah, where was I?
-- Disintegrate a shaft in an unused corner of your lair. At the end of it put ..

back later

Oh yes. Anyway, Disintegrate, Earth Swim or whatever to a remote location sealed on all sides by solid stone. Put into this chamber a copy of your spell book, some extra clothes, a minor magic weapon - whatever your character feels is indispensible but not so unique that he has to carry it. Study the location carefully. Then seal it up with multiple Wall of Stone or similar, then brick over the ending section exactly like it was before, using the same stone. Then leave it be. You can Teleport into the chamber anytime you need to refresh the materials.

-- Find another liche whom you trust with your life (yes, it is possible to find trustworthy Evil creatures, depending on your DM. If he's a dork about it, just take Leadership feat). Exchange phylactories with them and hide the replacement somewhere in your lair - hidden, but not impossible to find. So when you're murdered, your killers will locate a phylactory and destroy it, but meanwhile you're reforming at your friend's place. Your friend will have to make another phylactory (check with DM first to see if this is possible), but you can likely pay him off out of the loot you get off the bodies of your killers, after you track them down and attack them from surprise with your minions and allies.

YPU
2007-02-08, 02:45 PM
Keep track of political exchanges, when some kingdom is making a gift to another one, ad a nondescript gem. That way you will probably end up in the biggest collection of magic items around when you get killed.

elliott20
2007-02-08, 02:46 PM
for a second there, I thought the topic said a "Lice Phylactory".

I had some interesting mental images in my head then.

That Lanky Bugger
2007-02-08, 02:46 PM
Since your Lich now has a contingency in case he dies, why not use that to protect your Phylactory?

Dig various holes all over the place. Have a plain bag with a light source (like a stone with continual flame), a copy of your spellbook, and your Phylactory. Cast nondetection and other protective spells on this bag, and then seal it up. Now, cast Contingency with Teleport Object, stating that if anything but you moves within twenty feet of the Phylactory, the bag and it's contents will teleport to you. When the duration ends, the item will teleport to you anyway. You can then teleport back to the cave (or another like it) and reprotect the Phylactory at your leisure. Varying the location means you don't have to worry about a location being discovered. You can just pick a new location and keep things going.

Of course the contingency is just that: A contingency. The important thing is nobody discovering what your Phylactory looks like and where it can be located.

Mewtarthio
2007-02-08, 02:56 PM
Yes-- Put it inside of yourself in a difficult to access location, such as within the thigh bone or inside your skull (you're undead - you don't actually need marrow or a brain). This approach has its dangers, but benefits as well.

What benefits? The entire point of the phylactery is that anyone who wants to kill you has to destroy two targets. If the two targets are right next to each other, it's not very effective.

Turcano
2007-02-08, 02:57 PM
-- Find another liche whom you trust with your life (yes, it is possible to find trustworthy Evil creatures, depending on your DM. If he's a dork about it, just take Leadership feat). Exchange phylactories with them and hide the replacement somewhere in your lair - hidden, but not impossible to find. So when you're murdered, your killers will locate a phylactory and destroy it, but meanwhile you're reforming at your friend's place. Your friend will have to make another phylactory (check with DM first to see if this is possible), but you can likely pay him off out of the loot you get off the bodies of your killers, after you track them down and attack them from surprise with your minions and allies.

That's not really kosher, since most DMs will only allow a lich to have one phylactery. A lich cleric could conceivably work around that with true resurrection, but even that's a little iffy. Again, the DM might allow that, but don't count on it by any means.

If I were a lich, I would keep to the Evil Overlord List and keep my phylactery in a safe-deposit box at a major bank. (If necessary, get a large safe-deposit box that can be unlocked from the inside, along with your emergency stuff.) I would also make extensive use of decoys, perhaps even filling an entire room with thousands of identical phylacteries. Then I would scry on the room and laugh evilly while the adventurers waste hours upon hours destroying crateloads of worthless baubles.

DaMullet
2007-02-08, 02:57 PM
You could always go the "head of Vecna" route.

Create two objects. One is your phylactery, one isn't. Your choice as to what they are and which is which. Hire bards all around the land, through a series of underlings that can't be traced back to you, that your phylactery is one of them. Make no mention of the other item, which you will protect through it being your false eye or something.

Gamebird
2007-02-08, 03:22 PM
What benefits? The entire point of the phylactery is that anyone who wants to kill you has to destroy two targets. If the two targets are right next to each other, it's not very effective.

A creature's body is not harmed much in the course of taking hit point damage, as evidenced by fleshy mortal creatures surviving. You don't count as an object until after the attack that kills you. At that point, few adventuring parties will spend great effort to destroy the body, unless they believe the creature regenerates. Sure, there might be an extra attack or two "just to be sure" or out of spite and hate, but they won't disintegrate it (though if you were killed by Disintegrate to start with, then you're out of luck). Most likely they'll leave your undead corpse behind just like they left all the other bodies behind. If the body detects as magical that's hardly surprising - you were, after all, animated by pure magic and necromantic energies.

They loot your body and whatever they find nearby, then retreat to enjoy the proceeds/prepare for the next adventure/figure out where your phylactery is/wait for your inevitable revenge strike. All depending on the situation, of course. You regenerate in a convenient location. And until your death/destruction, you know exactly where your phylactery is and that no one else has gotten their hands on it.

Gamebird
2007-02-08, 03:24 PM
There is another option: Don't let people know you're a lich. Pretend to be a wight with wizard levels, or a vampire, or use a Hat of Disguise, suppress most of your supernatural abilities like cold emanation and go live among humans as a scholar and sage. Look like an elf if you need to explain your long life. This tact works best combined with an Amulet of Proof against Detection and Location, which will make you immune to Detect Undead and Detect Evil.

You can pair up that latter option with inventing a "spell" that turns on your supernatural abilities, and passing it off as magic. PC lich-in-disguise: "Okay, I'm casting Cold Aura now. It has a duration of one hour per level and is dismissable." Which is code to the DM that you're turning on the cold emanation ability. And so on.

mikeejimbo
2007-02-08, 04:07 PM
You can pair up that latter option with inventing a "spell" that turns on your supernatural abilities, and passing it off as magic. PC lich-in-disguise: "Okay, I'm casting Cold Aura now. It has a duration of one hour per level and is dismissable." Which is code to the DM that you're turning on the cold emanation ability. And so on.

That'd be awesome, you're a lich and the other players don't even know.

I just had another good thought: Put it at the bottom of the ocean, along with a waterproof chest of your emergency supplies. You know, tie it to an anchor or something.

You don't need to breath, so it shouldn't hurt you much anyway.

Jade_Tarem
2007-02-08, 04:42 PM
Why not space? Use force chest (the spell) to make sure that micrometeorites don't send it back down to the planet and all those anti-detection spells, plus nystul's aura, to make sure they can't just divine its location. Then, using your great intelligence, you can send your phylactery at the angle and velocity nescessary to put your phylactery into a stable orbit. You can have the rest of your stuff floating up there too. When you reform, telekinesis your stuff to you and teleport to wherever you wish to go. The majority of adventurers, in the course of hunting down the lich's phylactery, don't think to look 200 miles above them.

Arceliar
2007-02-08, 07:16 PM
Step 1: Make a phylactery of any type and become a lich.
Step 2: Genesis. Make a small plane as you see fit.
Step 3: On your Genesis-built plane, hide the phylactery under a mirror of opposition. (or inside a cube made of them).
Step 4: Make/Get an item that continuously functions as the Invisibility Purge spell, place it under the mirror with your phylactery.
Step 5: Plant a field of garlic that covers essentially your entire plane, but especially the phylactery.
Step 6: Cast or obtain someone to cast Forbiddance on every square foot of your plane, with the optional command word that only you (and the caster, if there's a person doing it for you) know. Immediately kill and destroy the soul of the person you higher to cast forbiddance everywhere.
Step 7: Do the usual stuff to alter the aura of everything magic, and set up several decoys and the usual mess of traps. Possibly build a temple or other such facility above your phylactery, with a small enough chamber within that you may reform your body and leave without opening any seal. Maybe throw a few golems or hoards of undead in there too, just for good measure.
Step 8: Speak the command word(s) to turn on your Mirror(s) of Opposition.

Essentially, the above creates a small plane, completely bars it from interdimensional travel. If the person DOES get into your plane (via spell resistance, etc--though I never have figured out if that allows them to bypass the forbiddance effect or just ignore the damage from being in your area), they have to face a mirror of opposition (which they probably aren't expecting) to get to your phylactery. If they happen to be invisible to avoid facing the mirror, the invisibility purge negates that. If they happen to be a vampire (and hence naturally lack a reflection) then the garlic should keep them at bay.

This is about the safest layout for phylactery storage that I've ever come up with in my workings. If nothing else, Genesis is a good place to start.

Stormcrow
2007-02-08, 07:22 PM
...Drop it down a well. Or hurl it into the ocean. You don't need to breathe :P.

Or get the Gem set into the sceptre/throne of the country's monarch. Good luck to the adventurer who convinces them to destroy it.

Meynolds
2007-02-08, 08:23 PM
But then you have the problem of being destroyed and recreated.

Personally, I would make it so small nothing can destroy it because nothing will hit it!

Central Dogma
2007-02-08, 08:37 PM
Something small like a old rusted dagger sitting in the corner of your holding cell in the basement of your castel.

Jothki
2007-02-08, 09:02 PM
There is another option: Don't let people know you're a lich. Pretend to be a wight with wizard levels, or a vampire, or use a Hat of Disguise, suppress most of your supernatural abilities like cold emanation and go live among humans as a scholar and sage. Look like an elf if you need to explain your long life. This tact works best combined with an Amulet of Proof against Detection and Location, which will make you immune to Detect Undead and Detect Evil.

You can pair up that latter option with inventing a "spell" that turns on your supernatural abilities, and passing it off as magic. PC lich-in-disguise: "Okay, I'm casting Cold Aura now. It has a duration of one hour per level and is dismissable." Which is code to the DM that you're turning on the cold emanation ability. And so on.

To improve further on that, don't actually be evil. You've already attained theoretical immortality, so there's really no point in making grabs for power. Even if lichdom doesn't satisfy whatever greed you have, there's no need to rush things, since everything will come to you given enough time.

That way, not only are people less likely to suspect you, even if they figure you out there's a chance that they'll let you live, since you're clearly not a threat and even if they want you dead keeping you down would be more of a hassle then it would be worth.

DaMullet
2007-02-08, 09:03 PM
Something small like a old rusted dagger sitting in the corner of your holding cell in the basement of your castel.
It works best if you stab a prisoner with it, and then leave it in the corpse. Nobody ever inspects the dead guy with a stick in him, except to see if he's a zombie.

Lapak
2007-02-08, 09:05 PM
Keep track of political exchanges, when some kingdom is making a gift to another one, ad a nondescript gem. That way you will probably end up in the biggest collection of magic items around when you get killed. This, this I like quite a bit. Putting into the treasury of someone else hides it in plain sight if it's an interesting amulet or a mysterious steel tablet or something along those lines, and even the most casual divination will be enough to keep track of the kingdom's coffers/state of invasion/whatever with enough warning to let you move it if necessary.

Arceliar
2007-02-08, 09:39 PM
Also lightly along the lines of my last post...

Genesis. Make a plane full of gravel or sand or something small.

Make your phylactery into an object of identical size. I don't think sand qualifies, but a small stone does.

Put phylactery (with magic aura altered) on the plane. It's like finding a stone needle in a haystack made of rocks.

Jaguira
2007-02-08, 10:25 PM
I would hide it in a Good-aligned dragon's hoarde without their knowalge. If worst comes to worst, you can always just kill the dragon when you regenerate in its layer. And no group of adventerers is going to kill a Good-aligned dragon unless they're evil (which is fairly uncommon), in which case I'd give it to an evil-aligned dragon.

Renrik
2007-02-08, 10:31 PM
Have an incredibly obvious phylactery, such as a crown, a box stored under your throne, or a giant hovering crystal thingy in a heavily warded chamber.

This is the false phylactery.

Have your REAL phylactery then something already thought of on this list.

Altertively, just make sure that when you become a lich you do so anonymously, without many people knowing. Make your phylactery a plain, simple object, like a pebble.
Put said pebble in an out-of-the-way location, where nobody would suspect a phylactery to be.

If all else fails, make your phylactery a needle. Hide said phylactery in a haystack.

SpiderBrigade
2007-02-08, 10:59 PM
I have to second the "fake-phylactery" plan, with the following addendum: have a way to make sure you're there when they destroy the thing, and some means of very convincingly faking your own dissolution. Complete with overdramatic "No, you fool! I AM INVINCIBLEEE........." line. Then when the adventurers have left you walk back in, sigh, and replace the "phylactery" with another just like it from a bin.

The real problem is, Liches can be a pain for a DM. I mean, they're unkillable except for one weakness, and can leverage the patience that immortality allows into victory over almost anything. Plus they're casters. So how does he put you in danger? You're obviously going to engage in all sorts of tricks to protect your only weakness...so he either can't overcome it, or he basically has to deus ex machina a way for the antagonists to find/destroy it...in which case you're 100% screwed. It's very hard to find a middle ground there, IMO.

I have given this a lot of thought, too, as I almost started up a game with a lich PC. I basically came to the conclusion that the game had to be about strategy and politics, with the opposition attempting to defeat the lich by foiling his plans, not by killing him.

iceman
2007-02-09, 12:05 AM
First, find a suitable spot to bury your phylactery, and bury it deep enough so that it wouldn't be affected by any pesky consecration spells or the like (not even sure if it would do anything, but just in case). Preferably, this will be in or near a town/city or someplace populated. Acquire the deed to the land on which your phylactery is buried. Then make a sizable donation to the church of your campains' sun god, including the deed, and asking them "to build a place of worship for the good people of this land."

While it is certainly not the safest plan mentioned it would probably win an award for being quite ironic.

If it suits you, you could further protect it using procedures/spells mentioned in earlier posts.

Jack_Simth
2007-02-09, 12:17 AM
Ah, where was I?

Oh yes. Anyway, Disintegrate, Earth Swim or whatever to a remote location sealed on all sides by solid stone. Put into this chamber a copy of your spell book, some extra clothes, a minor magic weapon - whatever your character feels is indispensible but not so unique that he has to carry it. Study the location carefully. Then seal it up with multiple Wall of Stone or similar, then brick over the ending section exactly like it was before, using the same stone. Then leave it be. You can Teleport into the chamber anytime you need to refresh the materials.Don't forget the Permanencied Private Sanctum, lead plating, and running water!

Fizban
2007-02-09, 12:50 AM
I've always liked the toss it into the deepest part of the ocean method. Assuming you have a magic-proof way of hiding it from divinations (some sort of mind blank effect should work, as mind blank beats even wish), and the pressure from the bottom of the ocean doesn't kill you again, it's great.

Alternatively: be a 15th level ghost. You can't fail the level check to re-form, and if your special reason for existing is "I don't want to go to the afterlife" or somesuch, you can't be peramanently destroyed, barring godly intervention. Make sure you put your corpse in one of the hiding methods presented in this thread, along with your 2d4 highly valued items. These items function normally on the ethereal plane, but are actually copies of the originals. If you lose the copy, just go back to your body, pick up the original and put it back, the copy will reappear at your side. The rules are sketchy, but if you want to be corporeal you should be able to just plane shift from the ethereal back onto the material. You'll be a generic undead guy with some spiffy powers, insert standard disguise method and you're set.

Melrob
2007-02-09, 03:03 AM
oooh some great ideas here. I'll get back to you shortly!

Wippit Guud
2007-02-09, 03:59 AM
Make it into a marble.
Donate it to an orphanage.

Melrob
2007-02-09, 04:13 AM
Right, to address some of the questions raised: my closest companions are 18-21 level so keeping from them the fact I am a Lich will only work for a brief time. Gentle Repose doesn't work on undead in our campaign and shapechange/poly/alter self will only work until one of the 3 priests casts true seeing. Then the game is up, but I'm prepared for that roleplaying scenario as my reasoning for becoming a Lich are well hooked, and should really hit a couple of them in the heart. I don't foresee them becoming my enemy and as I am the only high level arcane caster in the campaign: they really don't have anyone else to turn to for insane arcane/planar knowledge and firepower. So I doubt they'll kill me unless I begin to get ideas above my station and start messing with them.

On that note: I don't plan to start thwarting society and spreading evil and chaos across the land. My reasons are two-fold: my soul has been claimed by a demon-prince and upon my death I have an appointment with an eternity of pain. Also...I have a set goal which is, very simply, to observe and thwart the cult of Tharizdun for as long as my shell will sustain me. Albeit I will be ruthless, cold and calculated in this task, those in the know will still have little want to remove such a potentially potent and knowledgable enemy of their enemy. Through a deck of many things found in the RTTEE I was given a small keep, blessed by the big T, which attracts cultists of his madness. I have the beginnings of a very discreet opportunity for an operation of subterfuge. It's risky and insane, I know, but keeping tabs on them will be made much easier this way.

So my potential assailants will be cultists of varying power and do-goody types bent, in their ignorance, on removing my corpse from the food chain.

Some of the ideas you guys have come up with are superb :). I'm rather tempted to duplicate my phylactery many times over and use many of the ideas above possibly using the genesis spell (as suggested above) to create a demiplane with which to keep the real phylactery. Probably I will use in part my own idea above with genesis, sequester, instant summons etc and fill the plane with corpses to ensure my return. (we use the corpse-rule for liches).

Thanks again folks!! Some great ideas above and if you have anymore just fire away :P the more the merrier!

Caelestion
2007-02-09, 05:22 AM
Well, I used Al-Jaffir's Necrotic Touch for my lich Shadow Adept. This "spell" rings the caster's hand with chill energy, making it temporarily decay and imubing the caster's hand with a negative energy touch attack. On a critical hit, the caster can attempt to paralyse the target.

At least, that's what I claimed. Of course, it was just the lich pulling off his glove and dropping the disguise self from his hand...

Shadow of the Sun
2007-02-09, 06:46 AM
Step 1: Make a plane. You made it yourself, so now make it your phylactery
Step 2: ???
Step 3: Profit.

Ninja Chocobo
2007-02-09, 07:32 AM
Two ideas.
1. Geas/Quest or Suggestion traps. Plural. Geas has no save, Suggestion works better. Take your pick. Make the Geas/Quest/Suggestion something along the lines of: "Step away from the phylactery."
2. Step 1: Make it a dust particle, or grain of sand.
Step 2: Gust of Wind.

Jade_Tarem
2007-02-09, 04:24 PM
Make it into a marble.
Donate it to an orphanage.

Funny. The PC's arrive back in town after killing the lich...

PCs: We killed Nokyx the lich, where's our reward?
Mayor: You don't get jack! Just yesterday he burned down an orphanage out of nowhere and summoned a fiendish ogre to urinate in the public fountain!
PCs: What?

NecroPaladin
2007-02-09, 11:17 PM
Because Holy effects can't harm the Lich through his phylactery unless they destroy the object altogether, I had my Lich villain make his into a holy symbol and place it in the hallowed public church of a NG god. The PCs never found out and ended up just burying him (un)alive so he couldn't reappear at his phylactery and also couldn't cast spells to escape. I figured, "DM's like me already have a God complex, so why not be blasphemous?"

EDIT: The best part was that the fact that since it was a good holy symbol it was never thought of, and if the PCs thought it was in the church they'd have to cast detect whatever RIGHT ONTO IT or else it would be drowned out by not only its own spells to mask its purpose, but also every source of good/magic in the church (think; that's a lot of clerics and paladins, and there we're just talking the people who put off good and magic as a class feature).

EDIT2: Hmm, iceman had a similar method now that I read the rest of the thread...

Hephaestus
2007-02-09, 11:31 PM
In the Lich's base, make a well gaurded, well hidden room. Fill the room with traps and such. At the far end of the room, place a large glowing jewel on a pedestal, set up a continual flame spell inside some mirrors so a light is shining on the jewel while the rest of the room is pitch black. Carve the word "Phylatchery of X, please do not destroy. Thank you." onto the side of the gem. The phylatchery is the pedestal. Yeah, the group still hates me for that one...

Quietus
2007-02-09, 11:37 PM
I've got a little setup I've been planning on using on my epic-level True Necromancer, Keldarin; It involves the use of Genesis and potentially some specifically researched spells.

Step 1 : Learn Genesis.
Step 2 : Become a Lich.
Step 3 : Cast Genesis three times. One plane exactly sized to my phylactery, one 10x10x10 feet, and one that I let expand to it's maximum size.



Once that's complete, enchant my phylactery with a permanent, contingent Plane Shift. Set it so that the phylactery will reside in the plane specifically sized to fit it, and whenever Keldarin is being "reborn", it plane shifts to the 10x10x10 plane, drops me off, then plane shifts back.

Protections in the 10x10x10 plane : As much horrible elemental damage and negative energy as I can force to be in there. Give myself "Planar Asylum" there... I don't know if that's standard or a houserule thing, but it would mean that I am immune to the effects of the energy storms. Then turn the entire plane (remember, it's only 10 feet cubed) with a permanent Gate effect, with a specific key : "Not Keldarin or Keldarin's Phylactery".

The final plane : A complete airless vacuum. Find some way to negate magic in it, perhaps make it a Dead Magic plane, or cover it in permanent Antimagic Fields, or fill it with that area-effect Dimensional Anchor (the name escapes me), or something to that effect.


That sets up the following series of events :

Random person goes to destroy his phylactery. They discover the location, try to plane shift there - their plane shift fails, because there isn't room remaining on the plane to support them. They do their research, discover that his phylactery appears on the 10x10x10 plane at the exact moment he's going to be reborn.
They go to that plane to wait. The moment they arrive, they're hit with as much nastiness as I can pull off, before immediately being sucked off the plane. They arrive in the vacuum, and have just enough time to realize A) Vacuum sucks, B) They have no air, and C) They can't escape.


That being said, while this would be fun and mean, it'd also burn a LOT of exp. I like the irony of hiding it beneath the ground and building a holy temple above it.

Ivius
2007-02-09, 11:58 PM
Make it a block of air, you can't destroy air!

(I know there are ways, but just let me have my moment)

NecroPaladin
2007-02-09, 11:59 PM
That being said, while this would be fun and mean, it'd also burn a LOT of exp. I like the irony of hiding it beneath the ground and building a holy temple above it.

Exactly my point from earlier.

I also figured that, though it would be difficult to pull of without a lotta illusions, you could make it into an adventuring (good) cleric's holy symbol, which seems dumb but is so obvious that it's not. Not even paladins ever bother to check if their own holy symbol is evil, even when the lich magically appears right in front of them. You don't have to bother with nondetection spells, and if another good character detects it, then you could easily have a spell that warns you about that event, causing you to teleporting it to X location at your merest thought.

As an added bonus, the risk is WELL WORTH the majestic anarchy that is the all-out inter-hero brawl when the conclusion-jumping, holier-than-thou Paladin assumes that the easily-offended, holier-than-thou Cleric secretly worships an evil diety. :smallbiggrin:

Chances are the lich will have enough tries to kill them (if they haven't killed each other) before they guess ANYTHING to the effect of, "the holy symbol that a priest who SO WASN'T an altered and nondetected Lich pretending to be the High Priest gave to me." And appearing suddenly to attack the PCs will hardly be suspiscous, because any self-respecting lich knows teleport and any self-respecting champion of good knows that. This is negated by the gradual-regeneration method that some DMs use, though.

Jothki
2007-02-10, 02:30 AM
Step 1: Make a plane. You made it yourself, so now make it your phylactery
Step 2: ???
Step 3: Profit.

Constructing or hiding your phylactery in a way where destroying it would be highly cinematic is just asking for trouble. Making an entire plane your phylactery will eventually lead to you howling in rage and despair as your very soul detonates around you while the heroes gate out to safety, because anything else wouldn't be anywhere near as cool.

Shadow of the Sun
2007-02-10, 02:35 AM
I wouldn't mind- it would be incredibly cool, living in the thing that holds your soul and turning up to the earth every now and then because you are an evil prick. Also, I would want my players to kill the lich, but I would make it difficult.

Turcano
2007-02-10, 02:56 AM
Constructing or hiding your phylactery in a way where destroying it would be highly cinematic is just asking for trouble. Making an entire plane your phylactery will eventually lead to you howling in rage and despair as your very soul detonates around you while the heroes gate out to safety, because anything else wouldn't be anywhere near as cool.

Well, it sure beats the hell out of "You smashed the fourth nondescript pebble on the left! OE NOES!"

If you've got to die, you should at least go out in a blaze of awesome when you do.

Who
2007-02-10, 06:42 AM
Well, it sure beats the hell out of "You smashed the fourth nondescript pebble on the left! OE NOES!"

If you've got to die, you should at least go out in a blaze of awesome when you do.

"It's not whether you win or lose, it's how cool you look doing it"
Reference cookie up for grabs

Thomas
2007-02-10, 06:47 AM
That sounds like the old Cyberpunk 2020 rulebook, actually, but they were probably referencing something else.

Quietus
2007-02-10, 11:38 AM
"It's not whether you win or lose, it's how cool you look doing it"
Reference cookie up for grabs

True statement, however, if you were referring to this, you're a little off. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0392.html)

Bobbis
2007-02-10, 01:10 PM
Fine; assuming you have enough money, make your phylactery something small, now put it in a book. Following that, make a bunch (100+) vacuous grimoires. Stock a library with them, and put your book inside; now just cast nystul's magical aura and nondetection on the phylactery. You now have 101+ books in a library that all look like your phylactery within a book. Now the PCs must find your phylactery while making 200+ will saves or get stupified.

Alternatively, and make a gem type thing, permanant nondetection; polymorph any object: gem to sand: kingdom, class, related, intelligence. +9 mod, permanant. Now go drop it on the beach somewhere. Even if they use stuff like locate object, they're trying to find a grain of sand.

Mewtarthio
2007-02-10, 01:25 PM
Fine; assuming you have enough money, make your phylactery something small, now put it in a book. Following that, make a bunch (100+) vacuous grimoires. Stock a library with them, and put your book inside; now just cast nystul's magical aura and nondetection on the phylactery. You now have 101+ books in a library that all look like your phylactery within a book. Now the PCs must find your phylactery while making 200+ will saves or get stupified.

Or they could just realize how many cursed books are in your library and burn the thing to the ground. Worse: They may decide that perhaps there are a few valuable things in there, so they'll just disjoin the place (along with your phylactery) to get rid of the grimoires so they can read whatever journals you may have.


Alternatively, and make a gem type thing, permanant nondetection; polymorph any object: gem to sand: kingdom, class, related, intelligence. +9 mod, permanant. Now go drop it on the beach somewhere. Even if they use stuff like locate object, they're trying to find a grain of sand.

What's "permanent nondetection"? They can always use permancied arcane sight to look for any magic auras (if they know you're coming from the beach, they may expect your phylactery to be buried there). Even nondetection allows a CL check.

NEO|Phyte
2007-02-10, 01:26 PM
Make your Phylactery something that can fit between the pages of a book. Find a Book of Infinite Spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/artifacts.htm#bookofInfiniteSpells). Insert phylactery in book, use book until a page turns. Your phylactery is now hidden inside of an Artifact, with no means of getting to it short of the destruction of the artifact.

DaMullet
2007-02-10, 01:53 PM
Make your Phylactery something that can fit between the pages of a book. Find a Book of Infinite Spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/artifacts.htm#bookofInfiniteSpells). Insert phylactery in book, use book until a page turns. Your phylactery is now hidden inside of an Artifact, with no means of getting to it short of the destruction of the artifact.
That sir, is most certainly a fantastic use of an artifact. Sadly, finding a Book Of Infinite Spells isn't the easiest task.

Who
2007-02-10, 01:55 PM
True statement, however, if you were referring to this, you're a little off. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0392.html)

So I was:smallannoyed:, have a cookie

Mewtarthio
2007-02-10, 02:18 PM
Make your Phylactery something that can fit between the pages of a book. Find a Book of Infinite Spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/artifacts.htm#bookofInfiniteSpells). Insert phylactery in book, use book until a page turns. Your phylactery is now hidden inside of an Artifact, with no means of getting to it short of the destruction of the artifact.



Book of Infinite Spells

This work bestows upon any character of any class the ability to use the spells within its pages. However, any character not already able to use spells gains one negative level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#energyDrainAndNegativeLevels) for as long as the book is in her possession or while she uses its power. A book of infinite spells contains 1d8+22 pages. The nature of each page is determined by a dice roll: 01-50, arcane spell; 51-100, divine spell.
Determine the exact spell by using the tables for determining major scroll spells.
Once a page is turned, it can never be flipped back—paging through a book of infinite spells is a one-way trip. If the book is closed, it always opens again to the page it was on before the book was closed. When the last page is turned, the book vanishes.

Sadly, someone need only look at the Book of Infinite Spells and scream "Yay! Flipbook!", and that scream becomes your death knell.

By the way, does anyone else think the sentence "A book of infinite spells contains 1d8 + 22 pages" is a bit ironic?

DaMullet
2007-02-10, 02:58 PM
Sadly, someone need only look at the Book of Infinite Spells and scream "Yay! Flipbook!", and that scream becomes your death knell.

By the way, does anyone else think the sentence "A book of infinite spells contains 1d8 + 22 pages" is a bit ironic?

Don't forget, your phylactery is a piece of paper, or more likely a very thin sheet of Adamantine Foil. It won't dissapear, as it's not part of the book. It will simply be left alone. This method works best if there is a TN or LN wizard in the party who insists that he take the book for the purpose of casting spells, and therefore would go to great lengths to prevent it's use.

NEO|Phyte
2007-02-10, 02:59 PM
Sadly, someone need only look at the Book of Infinite Spells and scream "Yay! Flipbook!", and that scream becomes your death knell.
Vanish != destroyed.

Is a Talisman of Reluctant Wishes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/artifacts.htm#talismanofReluctantWishes) destroyed when it disappears, or does it just decide to teleport to a random location for the next adventurer to stumble over it?

Mewtarthio
2007-02-10, 03:03 PM
Vanish != destroyed.

Is a Talisman of Reluctant Wishes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/artifacts.htm#talismanofReluctantWishes) destroyed when it disappears, or does it just decide to teleport to a random location for the next adventurer to stumble over it?

Regardless of your interpretation, once the Book of Infinite Spells "vanishes," it should leave the phylactery behind. Anything left behind after the disappearance of a minor artifact warrants further investigation, meaning that they will likely discover its nature and destroy it.

NecroPaladin
2007-02-10, 03:21 PM
Well, it sure beats the hell out of "You smashed the fourth nondescript pebble on the left! OE NOES!"

If you've got to die, you should at least go out in a blaze of awesome when you do.

And this is exactly why I would gladly risk sacrificing my (un)life to pull of my aforementioned "all-the-good-characters-kill-each-other-without-the-lich-casting-a-spell" situation. It's a game, and honestly anything cool and explosive beats a game-breaking loophole.

Collin152
2007-02-10, 08:02 PM
Nah, heres what you do: When it comes time to make your Phylactery, dont do ANYTHING! Now, when its over, you should have made nothing. This nothing is now your Phylactery. Even if they could *find* this nothing, how do they intend to destroy it? Wherever they go, it cna't be there, as there is now *something* there rather than nothing. It's always where you can't be. If you reform by your Phylactery? Well....
Take Spell Mastery. Master Greater Teleport, Plane Shift, and so on. Gate, maybe. Cause Nothing is not a happy place to be.

Also, remember: Nothing is indestrucatble in this game.
Nothing can stop Pun-Pun
Nothing gets you Something for Nothing, therefore gets you anything for free.

DaMullet
2007-02-10, 08:05 PM
Nah, heres what you do: When it comes time to make your Phylactery, dont do ANYTHING! Now, when its over, you should have made nothing. This nothing is now your Phylactery. Even if they could *find* this nothing, how do they intend to destroy it? Wherever they go, it cna't be there, as there is now *something* there rather than nothing. It's always where you can't be. If you reform by your Phylactery? Well....
Take Spell Mastery. Master Greater Teleport, Plane Shift, and so on. Gate, maybe. Cause Nothing is not a happy place to be.

Also, remember: Nothing is indestrucatble in this game.
Nothing can stop Pun-Pun
Nothing gets you Something for Nothing, therefore gets you anything for free.
The trouble is, the Phylactery requires that you expend resources, thus acquiring something. Therefore, Nothing cannot be your Phylactery.

Collin152
2007-02-10, 08:06 PM
Expend resources? Sure! Just dont make anything. Throw it down a well!

Meynolds
2007-02-10, 08:11 PM
The trouble is, the Phylactery requires that you expend resources, thus acquiring something. Therefore, Nothing cannot be your Phylactery.

Just pay some random guy a copper piece for no reason!

Expending Resources =/= Acquiring Something

Problem solved.

Collin152
2007-02-10, 08:20 PM
Okay, regardless of whether or not you take my advice on creating nothing, you really should master those spells. You won't always have a spellbook handy, and getting to one REALLY helps.

DaMullet
2007-02-10, 08:23 PM
Okay, regardless of whether or not you take my advice on creating nothing, you really should master those spells. You won't always have a spellbook handy, and getting to one REALLY helps.

Ja, or be a Sorcerer. they're so much better for Lichery, fluff- and crunch-wise.

Wizards don't got what it takes.

Mewtarthio
2007-02-10, 08:23 PM
Just pay some random guy a copper piece for no reason!

Expending Resources =/= Acquiring Something

Problem solved.

Ah, but then you will make one random guy very confused as to why you gave him the money. Thus, his confusion will become your phylactery. In order to survive, you must continually make his life as zany and confusing as possible! I can see it now:

The adventurers bear down upon you. You are low on hit points and out of spells.
I use my Scroll of Sending!
Who are you contacting?
That guy I gave the copper peice to.
And the message?
"Colorless green ideas sleep furiously."
An evil grin spreads across your decomposing lips as you hear the phrase "What the Baator?" in response. As your atoms are torn apart by the Wizard's Disintigrate spell, you feel your vile life force being safely returned to its hiding place for revenge!

DaMullet
2007-02-10, 08:25 PM
That is one of the greatest pieces of metaphorical language I've ever seen.

I'm definitely stealing that. Of course, if the PCs find the guy and cast Calm Emotions on him, you're screwed.

Collin152
2007-02-10, 08:25 PM
Ah, but then you will make one random guy very confused as to why you gave him the money. Thus, his confusion will become your phylactery. In order to survive, you must continually make his life as zany and confusing as possible! I can see it now:

The adventurers bear down upon you. You are low on hit points and out of spells.
I use my Scroll of Sending!
Who are you contacting?
That guy I gave the copper peice to.
And the message?
"Colorless green ideas sleep furiously."
An evil grin spreads across your decomposing lips as you hear the phrase "What the Baator?" in response. As your atoms are torn apart by the Wizard's Disintigrate spell, you feel your vile life force being safely returned to its hiding place for revenge!
Funny, but not quite needed.
Give him a bag of platinum, and you have made him very happy. As long as he is happy, you have a phylactery. So put him in Temporal Stasis. He wont be able to lose that happyness ever.
But, sreiously, what do you get out of throwing money down a well? Nothing. Ta Da.

DaMullet
2007-02-10, 08:30 PM
One final thought regarding your Nothing defense-- A savvy PC (IE, a player taking any kind of Debate course, or Law) could make an argument that if it's Nothing, then merely standing there doing nothing would be kinky in the least and very damaging to one's Phylactery, were it nothing. Therefore, a PC could simply do nothing for a while until it's HP was gone. Note that in the description, it does stat a Hardness and HP for Phylacteries, even the ones that aren't there.

Collin152
2007-02-10, 09:05 PM
How do you intend to attack said Phylactery if you cant attack it without it moving?

DaMullet
2007-02-10, 09:14 PM
you're not attacking it, you're ravaging it.

Also, merely swinging your sword aimlessly should destroy it, as if you aren't attacking anything in particular then you must be attacking nothing.

Meynolds
2007-02-10, 09:19 PM
Also, merely swinging your sword aimlessly should destroy it, as if you aren't attacking anything in particular then you must be attacking nothing.


Clearly you are attacking the air, which is something, not nothing.

Collin152
2007-02-10, 09:32 PM
Too true. Besides, to know where it is, youd have to be looking for nothing. ANd sence you MUST be looking ofr the Phylactery, you will never find it. Besides, as I stated before, "nothing" is indestructible in this game (though originally that meant not anything, nothing is not anything, is it?)

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-02-10, 09:52 PM
I had a pretty funny idea once. I used my cohort for it, just in case the DM ruled against it.

Me: Okay, so my cohort's done with the process. He's a lich now, right?
DM: Yeah. You should probably hide that phylactery.
Me: I know, I've got this ready. My cohort puts his phylactery in my bag of holding.
DM: Alright but-
Me: Not finished. Now, I cut the bag of holding up.
DM: ...what.
Me: That means the phylactery is now lost forever, right? But it doesn't say anything about it being destroyed.
DM: ...that was clever.
Me: I know.
DM: It's also not happening. Figure something else out.
Me: Aww.

I ended up building a fortress for the phylactery and decking it out with several traps and golems. But the real kicker is that I didn't put the real phylactery there- just an imitation. The actual one was buried underground less then a quarter of a mile from the place.