Help a noob make a Warblade?

[Preacher]

So I have very limited experience with DND but I am enjoying it quite a bit.

For the first time I am joining a group that's been running for quite awhile. This will be my 4th campaign ever and were going to be starting at level 18...Iv'e never had a character past level 6.....

Decided to give warblade a shot since it seems like a really fun warrior class that uses caster like mechanics. Just looking for advice on good maneuvers to pick, what magic weapons/armor I should ask for, good skills and what point to stop leveling said skills and which feats are a must.

Just to give more info on me my character concept and my group.

The DM is someone I know who can be very....stuffy, but he has really good story lines. He is however against using anything that's not in a printed book in front of him, min maxing of any sort and he also likes to put in random "logical" rules like for example he has stated that power attack cannot be used with diamond mind maneuvers since its a "reckless swing being used with a concentration based style"

However I have learned pretty quick to just accepts a dm's rules since its their story and their game and just have fun with it. He's also using some strange homebrew ruling where armor reduces damage so I don't have to worry too much about hitting the ac of most creatures and awesomely enough he has allowed emerald razor to bypass this damage reduction.

My character is going to be a lesser noble being accompanied by his trusty vassal/body guard (a stealth focused swordsage played by my friend). I would like to focus on diamond mind and iron heart but would also like to dabble in some white raven in order to coordinate with my assassin buddy in battle.

Once again since I have never had a character this high I am wondering what I should look like at the end. Are certain skills like tumble worth leaving after a certain spot? Are the weapon focus/specialization worth taking in order to grab melee weapon mastery or weapon supremacy? Attributes and items?

Sorry to be asking for so much I just feel really unprepared since I don't get to play this character and feel him out as I develop him.

Appreciate any input...

[Sith_Happens]

One of the (many) great things about martial adepts is they're probably the only classes in the game that are more-or-less noob-proof. That said:

1. Because of the way maneuver prerequisites and swapping work, there's no quick and easy way to pick a high level initiator's repertoire. You'll need to start with the maneuvers your character had at 1st level and work your way up, just like if you'd actually played it from 1st to 18th.

2. Avoid anything with a save DC not based on Strength.

3.

for example he has stated that power attack cannot be used with diamond mind maneuvers since its a "reckless swing being used with a concentration based style"

However I have learned pretty quick to just accepts a dm's rules since its their story and their game and just have fun with it. He's also using some strange homebrew ruling where armor reduces damage so I don't have to worry too much about hitting the ac of most creatures and awesomely enough he has allowed emerald razor to bypass this damage reduction.

Most Diamond Mind strikes aren't about actually attacking more precisely so much as focusing your senses to either spot openings and weak spots better or just do things really fast, so they should be entirely compatible with Power Attack. That said, if your DM doesn't buy into that argument and keeps the houserule, the main consequence is that Emerald Razor and the Nightmare Blade line are mostly useless (even with the former bypassing armor-as-DR, which incidentally there's a published version of in Unearthed Arcana), and Time Stands Still becomes much less attractive as well. The majority of your damage at this level will be coming from Power Attack (unless you're going for dual-wielding with Stormguard Warrior, but that lends itself to an entirely different discipline focus), so you want to stay away from anything that keeps you from doing so unless you're getting a useful secondary effect out of it.

4.

My character is going to be a lesser noble being accompanied by his trusty vassal/body guard (a stealth focused swordsage played by my friend). I would like to focus on diamond mind and iron heart but would also like to dabble in some white raven in order to coordinate with my assassin buddy in battle.

Those are pretty much the go-to disciplines assuming you'll be two-handing, though if there's going to be any more melee in the party than just you and the Swordsage I'd strongly recommend doing more than just "dabbling" in White Raven. The more melee you're teamed with, the better White Raven is.

5.

Once again since I have never had a character this high I am wondering what I should look like at the end. Are certain skills like tumble worth leaving after a certain spot?

You only need a +19 Tumble modifier to reliably pass one enemy on difficult terrain or three enemies on normal terrain, so that's as high as you need unless you plan on moving through enemy spaces and/or jumping from high places without Feather Fall a lot.

Keep Concentration maxed out, even if it's only for Moment of Perfect Mind (which you should have).

Balance and Jump should be at least five ranks for synergy bonuses and to not be flat-footed while balancing. Whether any more than five depends on how much you intend to use them (in particular, if your group has Rules Compendium you can charge through difficult terrain by jumping over it).

Put one rank in Martial Lore so you can use it in the first place, but beyond that it's pretty pointless except for flavor.

The social and Knowledge skills on your list are always good to have, especially since you're playing a nobleman, so that's where I'd throw any leftover skill points. Alternatively, at 18th level your cross-class rank caps are high enough to make Spot and Listen worth investing in, as well as Use Magic Device if you want to have some fun with wands.

6.

Are the weapon focus/specialization worth taking in order to grab melee weapon mastery or weapon supremacy?

No. Especially since you can't take Weapon Supremacy before epic in the first place.


Attributes and items?

Sorry to be asking for so much I just feel really unprepared since I don't get to play this character and feel him out as I develop him.

Appreciate any input...

General advice:

1. The following maneuvers are non-negotiable: Moment of Perfect Mind, Mountain Hammer (but not its upgrades), White Raven Tactics, and Iron Heart Surge. Time Stands Still would be on that list as well if it weren't for the no-Power-Attack-with-Diamond-Mind rule, but is probably still worth taking even with that restriction.

1a. Show Iron Heart Surge to your DM and ask how much debugging he thinks it needs. As written, it can't get you out of paralysis and similar (due to not waiving the requirement on page 38 that you must be able to move to initiate a maneuver), it blows away area effects completely rather than just rendering you personally unaffected (which is a cool image, but probably not this particular DM's style), and it requires a constant common-sense approach to what constitutes an "effect or other condition" else you end up with silliness like being able to turn off the sun. Your DM sounds big on common-sense approaches though, so that last part probably won't be much a problem unless he goes the other way and wants to be overly-restrictive on what you can shake off.

2. The standard formula for Lots O' Damage is Leap Attack (Complete Adventurer), Shock Trooper (Complete Warrior), and Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1 (Complete Champion). If a few hundred damage per round is too much for your group then leave out either Shock Trooper or the Barbarian level.

3. You want some way to move and full attack in the same turn. Thankfully Warblade already provides a few (most relevantly Sudden Leap, Quicksilver Motion, and Press the Advantage), as well as strikes so you can actually do respectable damage without full attacking in the first place (Diamond Nightmare Blade is normally the gold standard, but if you can't Power Attack with it then Strike of Perfect Clarity is better). For other options see this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?103358-3-X-Ways-to-get-Pounce-or-Free-Movement) list. If you do settle for Pounce then see above about how much damage is too much damage.

4. The Discipline Focus weapon enhancement is your best friend. Get it for every discipline you intend to frequently use, then dump it all into Power Attack since your attack bonus at this level should be outstripping enemy ACs already.

5. Pump Strength and Constitution as high as they'll go, and ask your DM if he'll let inherent bonuses (e.g. the kind from Wishes and Tomes/Manuals) stack to the normal +5 maximum so you can buy them in increments. Beyond that, it'd be helpful to know how you're determining base attributes and how much gold you have to play with (by-the-book should be 440000) before I can start talking items.

6. If you really want to get into the nitty-gritty of what's-better-than-what, the Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?176968-Masters-of-the-Sword-A-Warblade-s-Handbook-Under-Construction) has everything you need to know.

[Adverb]

All of the above advice is sound, though I find the Elder/Ancient Mountain Hammers to be worthwhile maneuvers.

The best news, Preacher? It is almost impossible to create a "bad" Warblade.

The only thing I would add is to take a good, hard look at the Stormguard Warrior feat. You can build an entire melee character around that.

[Sith_Happens]

All of the above advice is sound, though I find the Elder/Ancient Mountain Hammers to be worthwhile maneuvers.

They're definitely good in isolation, the problem is they have prerequisites and the rest of Stone Dragon is thoroughly meh compared to every other discipline.


The only thing I would add is to take a good, hard look at the Stormguard Warrior feat. You can build an entire melee character around that.

I knew I was forgetting something. I did very briefly mention Stormguard Warrior, but meant to bring it up again in more detail.

My advice: Take Stormguard Warrior, no exceptions. The Fight the Horde option will never come up (I've never seen anyone fight defensively and only once seen someone actually use their Combat Expertise), but the other two options are superb. Any time you're full attacking and don't think your third or fourth attacks will hit, throw them into Combat Rhythm for a damage boost next turn instead of wasting them. Channel the Storm pairs amazingly with Robilar's Gambit (PHBII), letting you deal out massive punishment to anything that thinks it can go mano-a-mano with you. Make sure to have a Minor Cloak of Displacement though, because enemies will hit you and hit you hard whenever you engage Robilar's Gambit.

Which reminds me, do you solely want to deal damage to things or are you interested in throwing some You Shall Not Pass action into the mix?

[Zweisteine]

The DM is someone I know who can be very....stuffy, but he has really good story lines. He is however against using anything that's not in a printed book in front of him, min maxing of any sort and he also likes to put in random "logical" rules like for example he has stated that power attack cannot be used with diamond mind maneuvers since its a "reckless swing being used with a concentration based style."

As Sith said, this really isn't that logical. Diamond Mind is based on you being able to very quickly see hole in your opponent's defenses, and aim at them. IF you use power attack, you're basically going "he isn't defending that hole between his breastplate and his pauldron, so I'll just take a strong swing at that hole." Also, just because you're sacrificing accuracy for damage doesn't mean you're making a reckless attack. If you take -8 out of a +18 bonus, you're still hitting with more accuracy than most other warriors in the world.

And here's the handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?176968-Masters-of-the-Sword-A-Warblade-s-Handbook-Under-Construction).

[CoffeeIncluded]

The two biggest maneuvers that can be easily abused by a Warblade are Iron Heart Surge and White Raven Tactics. They're absolutely fantastic maneuvers that you should take, but talk to your DM about them, and about what constitutes as abusing the maneuvers from his perspective.

[Preacher]

Really thanks for all the help guys. This community is pretty helpful.

He says I'm going to have a budget of 88000 gold. What should I buy with it? Gonna focus on 2handing whatever I feel like with a buckler!

Also my attributes are already done. I ended up with...

17 Str
14 Dex
16 Con
14 Int
9 Wis
12 Charisma

Any recommendations for what attributes to level up besides the obvious level 4 point into Str?

And last but not least what should I do with my skill points besides level up balance, concentration, tumble and diplomacy?

[Dienekes]

Are those stats totally finalized? Because, honestly, Wisdom is more important than Charisma. You really don't need Charisma.

[Preacher]

Are those stats totally finalized? Because, honestly, Wisdom is more important than Charisma. You really don't need Charisma.

I can finagle the bottom 2 stats a bit.

What makes wisdom a priority? I can replace will saves with concentration.

[Alex12]

I can finagle the bottom 2 stats a bit.

What makes wisdom a priority? I can replace will saves with concentration.

Unless you're planning on being the party face (You lack the skills for this in addition to your important stats, so don't do this) or have stuff that keys off Charisma (you don't), it's not really a useful stat for you. I mean, it's nice to have, in the sense that bigger numbers are always better, but unless you're keying something off Charisma somehow, Wisdom is almost always better.

EDIT: Also, the Will to concentration maneuver isn't always on. You make it in reaction to having to make a Will save, and then it's spent until you refresh maneuvers. Plus, some DMs will make secret Will saves for you against some types of effects (like non-combat Charm Person. You can get around this by periodically IHSing away potential mental influences, say after every conversation. Have your character make a habit of this even if you know he isn't charmed, and he won't say your metagaming when you do get charmed).

[Dienekes]

I can finagle the bottom 2 stats a bit.

What makes wisdom a priority? I can replace will saves with concentration.

Now, this is getting into some optimization. And I will just tell you flat out, if you picture your Warblade as a charismatic guy, then keep it as it is. It's not that big a deal.

But if you're trying to be as awesome as possible, Charisma is useful for 3 things: Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidation. And honestly, because of how most games I've been in work, you only need one guy to do that. He can lie for the group, intimidate for the group, and diplomat-ize? diplomaticalize? whatever, for the group. This will usually be your rogue like character. Now, if you want you can put some of your skill points with that nice Int modifier in Diplomacy and Intimidate just so you don't have to sit in the corner when all this is going on. But you're not going to be the big player, so buying a masterwork +2 item would probably be all you need. The important stuff you can't afford to lose in the social context will be either dealt with by the rogue or a mage with some mind control on him.

But Wisdom has a bit that's useful. Spot and listen checks come up a lot (Spot more for my groups), and your skill monkey might not get a chance to warn you if you fail. In addition, Sense Motive comes up a lot. Then there's the Will Save. True, you can replace it with Concentration, but only once until you need to refresh your maneuvers. Which is about once every 2-4 turns in my experience. If your enemies are smart they'll hit you with more than one Will save at a time. Higher Wis is definitely beneficial in that situation.


Or in short. You're a combatant, Charisma won't help you in or directly before combat. Wis can. But ultimately, it's not a huge deal so do what makes sense for your character.

[Adverb]

Warblades have a funny thing. If you read the text about them, they're all about being super flashy, but other than having a couple skills in-class, they have approximately no reason to ever have Charisma, which is the "I am flashy" stat.

The next time I'm running a campaign, I think I'm going to try out Crusaders with a d12 and make Zealous Will and Devoted Spirit fire off of Con, and make the Warblade's Int stuff fire off Cha instead. That seems to make more sense?

Anyway, you wanted stuff advice. If I was playing a Warblade 18, I'd probably get a weapon that was Holy and Martial Discipline (Diamond Mind), since I'd spend most of my time in Hearing the Air or Stance of Alacrity. A Heartseeker Amulet [MIC] is a gold-star must-have if your DM will allow you combine it with another throat-slot item.

A Crown of White Ravens type item can be used to get you any of the super important low level stuff - DM save counters, IHS, WRT. A ring of counterspells that you have a friend put Dominate Person/Monster in might be useful. If you're Diamond-Mind heavy, consider a Concentration-boosting item. Gloves of Fortunate Striking is a nice way to make sure that your White Raven Hammer doesn't miss.

[Fouredged Sword]

I want to point out the tunic of steady spellcasting. Why you ask, as you are not playing a spellcaster? Well, it doesn't do anything for spellcasting directly. What it does is add a flat +5 to any concentration check.

For a wizard that is a nice auto pass to cast a spell after eating some damage. For you this is +5 to a willsave or +10 to damage on an attack. Not bad for 2500gp.

[Adverb]

Yeah, if you want to be Concentration Guy, there's that and Third Eye Clarity, which is +10 Concentration for 10k, and the Steady Concentration feat (always take 10 on Concentration checks), the Headband of Conscious Effort (which gives you a Mind-over-Body equivalent once per day for 2k), and, uh... some other stuff?

But sticking to just the Tunic is usually the right call.

[Shining Wrath]

Be careful with dips. You can get pounce from Tiger Claw's Pouncing Charge maneuver, and WB 20 is an AWESOME capstone. I'd rather have two stances than the ability to pounce.

Given what your DM has house-ruled about Diamond Mind, your very favorite maneuver may be Adamantine Hurricane. Two attacks with full BAB against every adjacent target. And by the fluff you SHOULD be using Power Attack if you've got it. At +4 to hit. As a Warblade, you have tons of hit points and Improved Uncanny Dodge. Which means charging into the middle of a host of enemies, having them swarm you trying to flank (which IUD prevents), and then bringing the Hurricane upon their pathetic not-Warblade heads is perfectly in character. My DM played his mooks as not realizing that I couldn't be flanked until they'd tried it; after all, flanking is normally a very good strategy.

Add Combat Reflexes and Robilar's Gambit to this strategy, and you're hitting them as they attack you, unleashing the Hurricane, and then finishing off the terrified survivors as they try to flee using your combat reflexes. A winner, is you!

[Kuulvheysoon]

If you're investing in Concentration anyways, it might be worth it to become psionic (either race or feat), as you can blow your psionic focus for a "Take 15" option on any Concentration check.