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dehro
2014-04-19, 05:56 AM
...spontaneously combusting??:furious::furious::furious:

My dad bought himself a new laptop and it came with windows 8. I'm the go to guy when he has problems with it. Not that I'm a computer wiz, but I do understand a fair bit about them and definitely more so than him.
I like to think of myself as an adaptable kind of guy.

I'm not adapting.

This forum's smileys don't cover the extent of headbanging and rabid bile that trying to find things and find out how they work induces in me.

the simple fact of not of having all your programmes listed in the start menu (there IS no start menu!!! :smallfurious::smallfurious:), not being able to do everything from the desktop, therefore having to somehow navigate/browse through the pointless "applike looking" things.. which aren't apps but like to pretend they are, is enough for me to want to build a catapult and use the laptop as ammo.
It doesn't help that my dad is aging and not too healthy, and seems to be reverting to not knowing how to do basic things on the computer, things that he's been doing for the last 20 years... so I find myself trying to calmly explain them to him only to realize that now half those things are hidden somewhere out of sight, or have otherwise changed place, procedure or tool..
aaaaaaaarrrgghhh!!!
there.. I had to vent a little FRUSTRATION!

factotum
2014-04-19, 11:15 AM
The most useful keyboard shortcut you will ever know in Windows 8 is [Windows Key] + X, which opens a handy menu containing links to things like Control Panel that are otherwise very difficult to find. And no, I don't know why there isn't a GUI equivalent of that either.

Zrak
2014-04-19, 12:44 PM
Is there really no option to just make it display like an older version, the way XP and 7 can be set to "classic" mode?

Emperor Ing
2014-04-19, 01:05 PM
You can download freeware programs like Classic Shell (http://www.classicshell.net/) to give you back your start menu. I use it for my Windows laptop which unfortunately, also shipped with Windows 8 (Yes, I, too, would like the individual whom the English language is insufficient to describe my dislike for who is responsible for Windows 8 to spontaneously combust as well) and it's upgraded my laptop significantly from "Rotten, festering pile of $800 scrap metal" to "Usable."

AdmiralCheez
2014-04-19, 01:08 PM
It's things like this that make me so very glad I insisted on Windows 7 when I was helping a family member upgrade last year. Salesperson kept trying to get us to buy 8, but I stood my ground. Since I would inevitably be the one to help them with tech issues, having to figure out 8 would probably have resulted in a small town being destroyed from the resulting rage explosion.

CarpeGuitarrem
2014-04-19, 01:27 PM
I would love to see people time-travel back to the emergence of 95. :smallbiggrin:

"WHAT THE FLIP IS THIS 'START MENU CRAP'??? WHERE IS MY PROGRAM MANAGER????"

Togath
2014-04-19, 01:48 PM
I really don't get what it is that bothers people about windows 8... Isn't the tile layout(with 20-30 things) better than having 4-5 programs on the start menu?

AdmiralCheez
2014-04-19, 02:07 PM
It's probably because it's different, and adjusting to change can be frustrating. Admittedly, my experience with Windows 8 is limited to demos in stores, so I haven't had too much time to play around with it. But from what I've heard, people that just want a regular desktop experience have to change a bunch of settings and possibly download other third-party programs to prevent it from booting into the touch-screen interface. That's what I really don't like about it. My computer does not have a touch-screen, so why is the default interface designed specifically for them, and why should I go out of my way to avoid it?

Mystic Muse
2014-04-19, 02:25 PM
I really don't get what it is that bothers people about windows 8... Isn't the tile layout(with 20-30 things) better than having 4-5 programs on the start menu?

Not for me it sure isn't.

factotum
2014-04-19, 02:28 PM
I really don't get what it is that bothers people about windows 8... Isn't the tile layout(with 20-30 things) better than having 4-5 programs on the start menu?

If you only ever had 4-5 programs on your start menu then sure, Windows 8 tiles are probably OK. I think that might be a slight exaggeration on your behalf, though!

Togath
2014-04-19, 02:33 PM
If you only ever had 4-5 programs on your start menu then sure, Windows 8 tiles are probably OK. I think that might be a slight exaggeration on your behalf, though!

That wasn't an exaggeration?
Still, 20-30 is better than.. 10? could you have 10 on a start menu? I'd thought they capped at 5.

Then again, I also don't get what people mean by "touch screen interface".. maybe it's because I don't have a smartphone/tablet/etc, and therefore don't see them commonly, but the menu from the boot-up/windows key just seems like a normal tile menu to me.

Gnoman
2014-04-19, 03:59 PM
You are incorrect. There is no "cap" on the number of items you can pin to the Win7 start menu, and the 10 items that show in the main section of the start menu are what you have been running lately. There is also the "All Programs" item, which when clicked gives links to every program on your computer that was installed via an installer. All of which takes up an extremely tiny rectangle on your desktop until you decide you want to look at it, allowing you to see your desktop wallpaper and the carefully selected desktop items that are the programs most important to you, not some unholy abomination of an interface that was spawned in the blackest pits of hell.

INDYSTAR188
2014-04-19, 05:40 PM
Hello, User Experience Designer here! I want to start by saying I cannot and DO NOT speak for Microsoft, so I can't answer any questions as to their intent. Having said that, I believe that Microsoft was attempting to be 'revolucionary' and on the 'forefront of innovation'. Belive it or not, Microsoft spends a lot of money on user experience research and development.

Invariably they were receiving feedback from users that indicated this was a good idea...

Interviewee: "You know what would be cool? If windows worked like my smart phone!"
UX Researcher: "Mobile technology is everywhere and ubiquitous computing is becoming realistic/affordable, we gotta be on the forefront of that!"

I promise you, my fellow playgrounders, there had to have been supportive responses from surveys, interviews, and all sorts of user testing throughout the product development lifecycle. Technology is leaping forward and in the rush to own the 'Internet of Things' I think it can be easy to overlook the simple stuff.

Just my two copper pieces of course.

ShadowFireLance
2014-04-19, 06:07 PM
Just update it to 8.1. That's what I hear.

Codex
2014-04-19, 07:43 PM
Let's solve this (hefts an large bomb with a wicked gleam in his eyes) Kobold style.

MLai
2014-04-20, 12:49 AM
What about, if in the near future (say 2014) I need to buy a new gaming PC? Should I get Win7 or Win8?
I already know I would like to have a Start menu, and everything as close to WinXP as possible. What I'm saying is, do I have to worry about games being incompatible with Win7 within the next several years?

mythmonster2
2014-04-20, 01:48 AM
Getting Windows 8, even if you love the Start Menu, isn't the end of the world. You can always just download Classic Shell or one of the many Start Menu replacements and have everything good to go, and it's what I've done for my PC.

factotum
2014-04-20, 02:24 AM
Invariably they were receiving feedback from users that indicated this was a good idea...


That's the point, though: they weren't receiving feedback like that. A large number of the people who participated in the Windows 8 public betas pointed out that the tile interface is flawed for a mouse and keyboard user. That wasn't so much of a problem in the beta because it was actually possible to use a Registry hack to bring back the old Start menu, but Microsoft removed that from the shipping product--which probably counts as their biggest mistake ever, IMHO.

Basically, Microsoft wanted to gain penetration for Windows Mobile, and they thought the best way of going about this was to use the same interface between the phone and the PC so everyone would be used to it. They ignored the fact this isn't what Apple did with the iPhone, or what Google did with Android, and yet both seemed to manage to get popular regardless! Fact is, Windows 8 has largely been a disaster for Microsoft--we're a year and a half after release now, and yet 8 is still only installed in a little over 10% of the world's PCs. Windows 7 has nearly 50% and is actually still rising, because people coming off XP will often choose 7 over 8 due to its familiarity.

Togath
2014-04-20, 02:58 AM
Wait, how is the tile layout bad for use with a mouse?
How is it any different from pushing a button with a mouse?

Firemage
2014-04-20, 03:01 AM
I don't mind the tiles in the main menu per se.
What I hate is the apps and their GUI:

All Apps always start at full screen, no way to resize! And that with ever increasing monitor sizes for desktop PCs!
A very hidden way to actually close an app. There's no familiar "X" at some corner of the screen. Instead you are supposed to drag the top of the screen to the bottom, with no indication whatsoever that you could do so.
Menus are hidden. You have to hover your pointer to one of the corners/edges for them to appear. And even then there are much fewer options than on the previous windows versions.
The design is very flat. With Windows 7 you always knew what could be clicked. In Win 8 apps you don't really.

Of course, there is also a desktop mode in Win8 with the familiar windows. But at first it boots you up to the tile menu.

Fortunately Win 8.1 and its updates correct all those one by one. So it's finally getting usable again.

But I agree: Win8 was the attempt to make an OS for both desktop PCs and mobile devices - and concentrated wholly on the mobiles, while ignoring what their differences where.

Togath
2014-04-20, 04:20 AM
about the boot menu.. it's one click to get to the desktop. one click. one click that takes a fraction of a second.
and what do you mean "no way to close an app"? documents, programs, and browsers all use the same layout they always have.
and about menus.. how so? just open the libraries page like with every edidtion of windows going back a decade.

georgie_leech
2014-04-20, 04:26 AM
about the boot menu.. it's one click to get to the desktop. one click. one click that takes a fraction of a second.
and what do you mean "no way to close an app"? documents, programs, and browsers all use the same layout they always have.
and about menus.. how so? just open the libraries page like with every edidtion of windows going back a decade.

Probably the bit where they don't use the familiar "minimise/maximise/close bar" in the top right. It is somewhat jarring to be used to that for so long for it to no longer be a feature. It's one of the reasons I stick to Desktop, where most things are still where I remember them being.

Togath
2014-04-20, 04:32 AM
Ok.. Maybe I'm missing something. when I look at it, it has that bar.
Am I missing something?
Or is it really that a lot of people are too lazy to hit the desktop display button if they restart their computer?
I mean.. no offense to people who do have an issue with pushing that button.. but that seems like just hating the system for the sake of hating something?

georgie_leech
2014-04-20, 04:45 AM
Ok.. Maybe I'm missing something. when I look at it, it has that bar.
Am I missing something?
Or is it really that a lot of people are too lazy to hit the desktop display button if they restart their computer?
I mean.. no offense to people who do have an issue with pushing that button.. but that seems like just hating the system for the sake of hating something?

The complaint was about the apps, not the Desktop. :smalltongue:

To be fair, Windows 8 does everything it can to encourage app use over the Desktop. Unless you change it, it defaults to the app screen, and everything from pdf files and photos to movies and IE open their app rather than in a window by default. It can be frustrating having to switch everything over manually, especially when there doesn't seem to be much point from the user's perspective. The App system works great for mobile devices, but it's not especially easy to use with a mouse and keyboard. I'm told that Windows 8 is supposedly one of the most efficient OS's in terms of resources needed, but I haven't noticed any real improvement over 7. In other words, it feels like change for the sake of change, and it seems like it's change in a direction that most people didn't appreciate, given that a lot of patches and updates seem to be about turning it more Windows 7-like.

Togath
2014-04-20, 04:48 AM
I always right click and select open.. and get normal layouts for them.
I take it most people double click?

georgie_leech
2014-04-20, 04:56 AM
I always right click and select open.. and get normal layouts for them.
I take it most people double click?

That would be my guess. Again, that's what previous OS's have used, to the point that it's second nature for a lot of people. I agree that it's not earth-shatteringly terrible to have to get used to new ways of working with computers, but I find myself left with the question of "why?" Why is the default so different from what I'm used to? What exactly is the benefit of doing it this other way? Am I actually getting something worthwhile out of this OS that I couldn't get out of Windows 7?

Which, incidentally, is also why I'm still using Windows 8 instead of switching my OS back to 7. My new laptop came with 8, and I don't think the difference in user experiences is great enough to justify the hassle of changing everything over.

factotum
2014-04-20, 07:13 AM
Wait, how is the tile layout bad for use with a mouse?
How is it any different from pushing a button with a mouse?

Larger tiles means you have to move your mouse further to click, or even have to scroll the tiles to find what you're looking for--and that simply isn't as easy when you're moving a mouse cursor as it is when you're just tapping or swiping a screen with your finger.

Togath
2014-04-20, 03:58 PM
Larger tiles means you have to move your mouse further to click, or even have to scroll the tiles to find what you're looking for--and that simply isn't as easy when you're moving a mouse cursor as it is when you're just tapping or swiping a screen with your finger.

But you only need hit a single button to turn things into the desktop mode.
I mean.. Seriously? How can you be so adamant about not moving your hand half an inch? Especially when you only need to do it when you restart your computer.

D_Lord
2014-04-20, 04:10 PM
Here is something funny, Microsoft doesn't use window 8 themselves. When they we showing off at a show, one the demistaters mis-clicked and showed they were running their fancy windows 8 show off of windows 7.

Mystic Muse
2014-04-20, 06:14 PM
But you only need hit a single button to turn things into the desktop mode.
I mean.. Seriously? How can you be so adamant about not moving your hand half an inch? Especially when you only need to do it when you restart your computer.

Part of the problem with mine is, using the mouse pad, it will randomly switch back to whatever app I was using last, and I'm not sure what to google to turn this damn thing off.

georgie_leech
2014-04-20, 06:23 PM
Part of the problem with mine is, using the mouse pad, it will randomly switch back to whatever app I was using last, and I'm not sure what to google to turn this damn thing off.

By mouse pad did you mean the little touch pad some laptops use, or do you mean actually using a mouse? If it's the latter, you can use Fn+F7 to turn off the track pad. If the former, moving your finger quickly from the left side right will switch between active apps. In that case I highly recommend getting a mouse so you can use the above shortcut. :smallbiggrin:

Togath
2014-04-20, 06:37 PM
Part of the problem with mine is, using the mouse pad, it will randomly switch back to whatever app I was using last, and I'm not sure what to google to turn this damn thing off.

I've.. never heard of that. Could you have a computer virus? It doesn't sound at all like what I've encountered, so it's likely not intentional.

Mystic Muse
2014-04-20, 06:38 PM
By mouse pad did you mean the little touch pad some laptops use, or do you mean actually using a mouse? If it's the latter, you can use Fn+F7 to turn off the track pad. If the former, moving your finger quickly from the left side right will switch between active apps. In that case I highly recommend getting a mouse so you can use the above shortcut. :smallbiggrin:

Well darn. I'm not sure where a mouse is, and I don't feel like buying one.

Solse
2014-04-20, 11:29 PM
Part of the problem with mine is, using the mouse pad, it will randomly switch back to whatever app I was using last, and I'm not sure what to google to turn this damn thing off.

This always happened to me as well. I don't care about checking my Outlook account that I only made so I can download apps, I just want to use desktop mode damnit!

Granted, every now and then, I liked to browse the forums using the touch screen in full-screen IE11 but it doesn't compensate for all of Windows 8's flaws.

pendell
2014-04-21, 09:53 AM
I would love to see people time-travel back to the emergence of 95. :smallbiggrin:

"WHAT THE FLIP IS THIS 'START MENU CRAP'??? WHERE IS MY PROGRAM MANAGER????"

I was there. I had no problems adapting to the start button, and on the whole considered windows 95 a major step up from Windows 3.1, especially since plug-and-play meant I could forget about config.sys and autoexec.bat.

My one complaint was that it broke all my games. But compatibility mode and dosbox solved that, for the most part.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

INDYSTAR188
2014-04-21, 08:06 PM
That's the point, though: they weren't receiving feedback like that. A large number of the people who participated in the Windows 8 public betas pointed out that the tile interface is flawed for a mouse and keyboard user. That wasn't so much of a problem in the beta because it was actually possible to use a Registry hack to bring back the old Start menu, but Microsoft removed that from the shipping product--which probably counts as their biggest mistake ever, IMHO.

Basically, Microsoft wanted to gain penetration for Windows Mobile, and they thought the best way of going about this was to use the same interface between the phone and the PC so everyone would be used to it. They ignored the fact this isn't what Apple did with the iPhone, or what Google did with Android, and yet both seemed to manage to get popular regardless! Fact is, Windows 8 has largely been a disaster for Microsoft--we're a year and a half after release now, and yet 8 is still only installed in a little over 10% of the world's PCs. Windows 7 has nearly 50% and is actually still rising, because people coming off XP will often choose 7 over 8 due to its familiarity.

I don't want you to think I'm arguing with you on your point. I have very little exposure to Win 8 and can't really (nor do I have any desire to) defend the interface and UX. But could you provide a source for your claim that "a large number of people..."? What people, how many, how many did they have participate in the beta overall, what did the others say? See what I'm saying? There are people of all sorts of opinions and preferances shouting at the 5E developers, they can't listen to everyone. You SHOULD expect an industry leader like Microsoft or Wizards to listen to their users and be able to infer the essential, important stuff.

IMO, as I stated earlier, I think Microsoft was trying to own the 'Internet of Things' race. Google has email, maps, search, VOIP, social media, hell even your thermometer and such (Nest), etc etc. All of Googles interfaces and accounts run fairly smoothly together and are similarly styled. I believe this was Microsofts attempt to match that, but they might have failed.

Nightraiderx
2014-04-22, 06:58 AM
If you are going to live with it, some tips:
I believe if you right click on the tile a few options come up:
Delete it, make it smaller, turn it off.

I have usually just turned off most of the apps as they slow down the computer.
The REAL problem with the Apps IMO is that they act just like Ipod apps and take
a period of time to set up/turn off, you feel better off using desktop-only stuff over it.
Feels clunky to me, but since I don't really use the menu: (I actually just use the file app and navigate that way).

dehro
2014-04-22, 07:11 AM
The most useful keyboard shortcut you will ever know in Windows 8 is [Windows Key] + X, which opens a handy menu containing links to things like Control Panel that are otherwise very difficult to find. And no, I don't know why there isn't a GUI equivalent of that either.

you might just have saved my dad's laptop from being fired out of the window.

I would love to see people time-travel back to the emergence of 95. :smallbiggrin:

"WHAT THE FLIP IS THIS 'START MENU CRAP'??? WHERE IS MY PROGRAM MANAGER????"

I'd rather have the old Program Manager back than this current fad.
and yeah, I was there for the transition, and it went a whole lot smoother than this one.

what I mainly lament is that I have a hard time "managing" the programmes.. moving them around, change a thing or two or even find stuff that I don't want to clutter my desktop (that is, the app desktop).. and can't seem to find on my regular desktop (the old one).
Time and time again, it seems to keep everything I need, want or am looking for at any given moment just outside reach, and making me feel stupid in the process.

and yeah, the "app" structure is very much optimized for touchscreens, something most PCs haven't got.
I'm sure over time these changes will be "absorbed" and I'll know my way around windows 8 just like I know it now around windows 7.. but I can't shake the feeling that half these changes have very little if any purpose other than justifying some people's salary.

btw, apparently I'm not the only person who got frustrated by windows 8 (http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/borowitzreport/2014/02/gates-spends-entire-first-day-back-in-office-trying-to-install-windows-81.html)

Tyndmyr
2014-04-22, 07:17 AM
I really don't get what it is that bothers people about windows 8... Isn't the tile layout(with 20-30 things) better than having 4-5 programs on the start menu?

Perhaps this is true if you are the sort of person who only has 4-5 things in your start menu. Realistically, everyone immediately mashes "programs", and selects from a very long list of things.

Windows 8 makes plenty of sense on a touchpad. Big buttons, several windows you flip between, sure. With a mouse and keyboard? Not so much.

And yeah, I was around for the transition to 95. It was great. We loved it. 3.1 was kind of a pain.

Bovine Colonel
2014-04-22, 09:20 PM
btw, apparently I'm not the only person who got frustrated by windows 8 (http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/borowitzreport/2014/02/gates-spends-entire-first-day-back-in-office-trying-to-install-windows-81.html)

Nitpick: the author is the New Yorker's humour writer.

AgentPaper
2014-05-14, 01:04 PM
Now you know how old people feel. ;)

Seriously though, this is exactly how I felt when I used windows 8 for the first time as well. Also when I used a Mac for the first time. Now, windows 8 fees fairly natural, and while I don't use the app page much, I didn't really use the start menu much either, for the same reasons.

Sean Mirrsen
2014-05-14, 02:26 PM
I was so hesitant to ever have to interface with Windows 8 that when I was going to purchase a tablet I almost immediately ruled out all tablets that run Windows 8 as possible options.

The chiefest problem of Windows 8 is that it's a hybrid OS, but it doesn't have a way of being an OS of just one kind.

If you're on a desktop PC, you have no way to lock out all of the touch-control features of the OS (at least without programs like Classic Shell), and some very important settings and controls are hidden back in the cumbersome touchscreen interface, and unavailable in the usual Control Panel.

If you're on a tablet PC, you... pretty much are required to interface with the Desktop sooner or later, for viewing various files, and indeed accessing things like the Control Panel, and the design of the Desktop is perhaps even less suited to being manipulated with fat greasy fingers, than the tile interface is for keyboard and mouse. An alternative is getting the RT version, but then you pretty much lose all advantages of Windows. Not to mention the windows themselves.

Fortunately, I found a way around it. There's exactly one kind of device that Windows 8 can be comfortably used on without acclimatization from Windows 7. Hybrid PCs. It makes sense, it's a hybrid OS. In the end, I chose a Samsung convertible tablet/UMPC, the one with a built-in Wacom stylus for drawing and fine manipulation. Honestly, there is no better match for Windows 8 than this device. I feel that on anything else, Windows 8 would be a massive chore to operate until you got used to it. But here you have the touch controls when you need them, and the precision controls when you need them as well, so there is no clunkyness in not being able to stick to just one.

I think that in failing to make a good OS for either desktops or tablets, Microsoft actually succeeded in making a great OS for hybrids.

I personally don't mind it at all. ^_^

(the only downside is, I've gotten too used to it now. I catch myself trying to tap-select something, or calling up the sidebar, on my regular laptop, because that is darn handy. True, I almost don't use the app screen at all nowadays, especially after ClassicShell, but there's still something to be said for having some touch-optimized apps and games for when you don't have anywhere to put the keyboard :) )

bluewind95
2014-05-14, 02:59 PM
btw, apparently I'm not the only person who got frustrated by windows 8 (http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/borowitzreport/2014/02/gates-spends-entire-first-day-back-in-office-trying-to-install-windows-81.html)

That's hilarious! :smallbiggrin: I don't care if it's true or not. It's believable!

Frankly I HATE Windows 8. "Oh but the desktop is only a few clicks away". Yes, well, I know that. It's a click or two away. A click or two when all that I was doing is hidden away by that over-saturated FULL SCREEN MENU. Which throws me off what I was doing in the first place. And hey. If I want to check what I had open in order to see what I need to open next (Which DOES happen), then I need to go back to the desktop and check. And BAM! Full-screen menu again! Which, due to compartmentalization of the brain, makes it more likely I will forget (again!) what I wanted to open. Kind of like walking through a door. And the full-screen "apps" are horrible for multi-tasking! Let's say I'm having an I conversation with someone. I need to manually switch to the app to actually see if the person's replied! I don't mind if my phone does a thing like that. It's small and it's not really made for multi-tasking. But even then it has the all-important notification area! You know. Like the task-bar they removed from Windows when you have full-screen apps!

Oh and then there's that ugly new look to the top of the applications. The title bar. Here in Windows 7, I have a lovely purplish and transparent look to my task bar and my title bars. It looks nice and it has a gradient that makes it mesh well with my screen. I go to windows 8? It has harsh colors that look JUST like I downgraded to Windows 3.1! Why are we going backward in terms of design?

That's not even going into the gestures, which render part of the screen or touchpad inoperable. REALLY? Gestures with the TOUCHPAD? The amount of times I have accidentally closed what I'm doing is staggering. And in the week I was forced to use Win8 (cos my Win7 laptop was undergoing maintenance) had me see my application being closed or something else being opened far more times than this happens in a year with Win7 (usually the result of accidentally double-clicking the x button when several things are open, but that's the only way I can do that). It was the most annoying thing ever.

I am actually pleased that the OS is the same between tablets and laptops. The idea is awesome! Installing the same programs you use on your laptop to your tablet is really wonderful. Makes the tablet so much better. But thing is, people don't use a laptop the same way they use a tablet (even if some programs are wonderful to have on both, ESPECIALLY since some programs are great in the laptop and awful in their mobile versions. SKYPE I AM LOOKING AT YOU.) I think there SHOULD be a desktop mode and a tablet mode. And hey, if people want to deal with the desktop mode in their tablet or vice-versa, more power to them. I probably would go fully desktop mode, personally. And, for the sake of the gods and the alien overlords and the goodness of mankind, PLEASE let the colors in that godawful "metro UI" be editable. The colors are over-saturated and it's horrible for my eyes.

The Random NPC
2014-05-14, 10:14 PM
Ok.. Maybe I'm missing something. when I look at it, it has that bar.
Am I missing something?
Or is it really that a lot of people are too lazy to hit the desktop display button if they restart their computer?
I mean.. no offense to people who do have an issue with pushing that button.. but that seems like just hating the system for the sake of hating something?

I still have no idea how I'm supposed to close my apps, I just use alt-f4. Furthermore, I keep forgetting what can be clicked on, and that the Charms menu is a thing. In case it wasn't obvious, this is a bad thing.

P.S. I want to second that the apps are horrible for multitasking.

bluewind95
2014-05-14, 11:17 PM
the Charms menu is a thing.

THAT'S RIGHT! THE CHARMS MENU! :smallfurious:

Seriously, who thought it was a good idea to hide the command to turn off your computer... IN THE SETTINGS?!

The Random NPC
2014-05-15, 12:18 AM
THAT'S RIGHT! THE CHARMS MENU! :smallfurious:

Seriously, who thought it was a good idea to hide the command to turn off your computer... IN THE SETTINGS?!

I know what you mean, I had to make a script to do it, I didn't find out how I was supposed to turn off my computer until I had it for 3 months. Now I use my script because it's so much easier.

georgie_leech
2014-05-15, 12:37 AM
I know what you mean, I had to make a script to do it, I didn't find out how I was supposed to turn off my computer until I had it for 3 months. Now I use my script because it's so much easier.

I'm no Windows 8 fan, but surely that solution was only a Google search away. :smallconfused:

Telok
2014-05-15, 12:37 AM
So I've ended up being the 'computer guy' of my family (seriously, I recently fixed my in-law's printer by plugging the power cable back in) and since I've been using linux distros for the past fifteen years I've missed out on much of the Windows drama. But recently my in-laws bought a new computer, with Win8. Of course I got to set it up.

One thing I discovered with their old off-brand webcamera was that if Win8 doesn't auto-detect hardware, and you don't have a manufacturer's driver install program then there's apparently no way to manually add hardware or install drivers. I did eventually get the camera auto-detected, but only on one of the two USB ports on the front of the computer. The other front port and the ports on the back or on the monitor won't work. No explanation, I got nothing.

Then comes the whole reason behind the webcam, Skype. They have have a Skype account for a couple years now, the webcam works, and Win8 comes with Skype pre-installed. All good? Nope. Apparently the Win8 version of Skype (or maybe it's just a Win8 thing) requires some sort of Microsoft online account in order to log into your Skype account. I can't find a way to just get them into their existing Skype account without signing them up for a Microsoft account. It's annoying because I can access Skype through a linux distro, my wife can access it straight through her phone, my mother can access Skype from an Apple, and the in-laws used to be able to access Skype through their old Windows box. So yet another login, yet another password, yet another database to add their email address and computer specs to, just to access something that they never had any problems with before "upgrading".

I also can't find a way to get a Skype shortcut onto the old style desktop that they prefer to use. It just doesn't seem to be possible with the way Win8 is designed. Every time I have to deal with Win8 make me happier I ditched it for linux where I can tell the computer what to do and it does it.

factotum
2014-05-15, 02:00 AM
As far as Skype is concerned, I suspect the one that's "built in" is the W8 app version--you should be able to download and install the normal desktop version as well, have you tried that?

dehro
2014-05-15, 02:28 AM
I'm no Windows 8 fan, but surely that solution was only a Google search away. :smallconfused:

fair enough.. but why complicate something simple? steps forward in software development should aim to make at least the basic functions easier and more accessible, not the other way around.

The Random NPC
2014-05-15, 02:34 AM
I'm no Windows 8 fan, but surely that solution was only a Google search away. :smallconfused:

I literally didn't think to Google the solution for 3 months. After about an hour of searching my computer for how to turn it off, my first thought was to find a way to put an off button in my start menu... where it should have been all along.

dehro
2014-05-15, 03:29 AM
I literally didn't think to Google the solution for 3 months. After about an hour of searching my computer for how to turn it off, my first thought was to find a way to put an off button in my start menu... where it should have been all along.

you have a start menu? :smallbiggrin:

The Random NPC
2014-05-15, 03:56 AM
you have a start menu? :smallbiggrin:

I never remember the new names for the things, start screen maybe?

georgie_leech
2014-05-15, 08:48 AM
fair enough.. but why complicate something simple? steps forward in software development should aim to make at least the basic functions easier and more accessible, not the other way around.

And thus why I'm no Windows 8 fan. :smallbiggrin:

supermonkeyjoe
2014-05-15, 10:17 AM
THAT'S RIGHT! THE CHARMS MENU! :smallfurious:

Seriously, who thought it was a good idea to hide the command to turn off your computer... IN THE SETTINGS?!

The same people who thought it made sense that to shut down you first had to click Start? :smallbiggrin:

They've actually fixed that now in 8.1 update 1, the power option sits in the top right of the start screen.

The Random NPC
2014-05-15, 12:09 PM
The same people who thought it made sense that to shut down you first had to click Start? :smallbiggrin:

They've actually fixed that now in 8.1 update 1, the power option sits in the top right of the start screen.

Oh, hey, so it does. I didn't realized that button existed/was clickable. Which is another thing that I hate about Windows 8, if a button is clickable, it should look clickable.

Gandalf
2014-06-10, 06:04 PM
I had to borrow a computer that used Windows 8 for homework. I had to use a lot of tabs to work on it. In the realm of sanity, it is easy to control and resize tabs, if you have one page that requires a lot of room and one that requires little room. Sometimes three pages at once can be used. On windows 8, all I could do was split screen. It took hours (I am not exagerating) longer than it would have on other OSs.

I also found that some things I had to access from the desktop, some from the app menu.

It would also take minutes of jamming the mouse at the side of the screen to access important controls.

The app menu in general is a bad on laptops. The desktop is much easier to sort because you just click and move. This app screen goes against the basic goal of creating interfaces, make it easy to translate the human's will into machine activity.

The advantage that laptops have over tablets and phones is that they are easier to control. It is easier to type on a laptop, easier to click, being larger allows the user to manage more activities and controls at the same time. Windows 8 seems to be doing everything possible (short of being a chrome-book) to eliminate these advantages.

It severly weakens itself in the home turf of Windows (regular computers) for a slim shot at its rivals territory (tablets). This is a big mistake.

Max™
2014-06-10, 08:14 PM
The advantage that laptops have over tablets and phones is that they are easier to control. It is easier to type on a laptop, easier to click, being larger allows the user to manage more activities and controls at the same time. Windows 8 seems to be doing everything possible (short of being a chrome-book) to eliminate these advantages.
Have you used one? If you can do it on chrome on another system you can probably do it on a chromebook, you want multiple activities? Tab Scissors, Splitscreen, or Splitview should work fine.

Want to use full programs? Put Crouton on and hit the shortcut to load up a full linux distro and do your stuff on there.

Could also plug in an hdmi monitor and use it as a dual monitor system.

Yes, I know, microsoft insists that there isn't any way to do anything useful on a chromebook, but they're not really the most trustworthy source here.

Visivicous
2014-06-10, 10:32 PM
I don't understand why so many people have a problem with Windows 8. On the other-hand, I totally understand flaming the 'metro' UI.

I've been running Win8 or 8.1 on my gaming desktop since shortly after it was released. I also run it on my gaming laptop. Once you customize the OS, it will run just like Win7. There are a ton of guides out there, just run a search on Google such as 'windows 8 run like windows 7', and bam, there you go. I would highly recommend using Classic Shell over some of the other programs, and do recommend that you invest some time in learning the options Classic Shell (or whatever shell you choose).

Once you’ve fully customized the OS, acquired all updates, and installed your favorite programs (I’d leave out any weighty software, like games – too large) I’d offer the following piece of advice:
MAKE YOUR OWN RECOVERY MEDIA!
I prefer the Macrium Reflect Free Edition, though there are a number of good alternatives.

If you find yourself asking 'why switch to windows 8', especially concerning a gaming rig, the answer is simple: resource management. After stable drivers came out, and I was sure that my games would run, I did a small test. I broke up my raid array, and only connected one hard-drive at a time. One drive I installed Win8, the other, Win7. On each drive I installed all updates and drivers, as well as all of the programs that I use (regularly or rarely), and my favorite games (old and modern). Comparing the two, Win8 was the clear winner for these reasons: used less memory and CPU cycles at idle, faster response time from programs, much faster cold boot, faster warm boot, slightly better frames per second in most games, slightly less lag in most games, and overall better stability (though Win7 was already very stable).

YMMV, but I have had nothing but good times with Windows 8 (once all the bull **** that Microsoft tried to shoehorn in there was disabled... I'm looking at YOU metro UI, you unholy piece of ****!).

dehro
2014-06-11, 12:59 AM
Don't "use Linux instead" and "make it look and act like it's windows 7" kind of defeat the purpose of having a new version?

I still think windows 8 creators should make like a lemming and jump off a cliff.

factotum
2014-06-11, 01:19 AM
I still think windows 8 creators should make like a lemming and jump off a cliff.

In a way, he did--Steven Sinofsky, who was the head of the Windows division at Microsoft, left his job in 2012 shortly after Windows 8 was released; the suspicion is obviously that he was politely asked to leave due to the disastrous W8 launch, although that's never been confirmed.

BananaPhone
2014-06-11, 01:34 AM
Yes. I agree entirely with the OP. After the easy, pleasant joy that Windows 7 was, Windows 8 was like getting tea-bagged by a Mordor Troll.

Wings of Peace
2014-06-11, 06:01 AM
This may have already been mentioned (I skimmed) but something I found made Windows 8's attempts to force the Metro gui down my throat less abrasive was right clicking the taskbar and going Properties -> Navigation -> [Check] "When I sign in or close all apps on a screen, go to the desktop instead of Start"

kenrodas
2014-06-11, 10:52 AM
I think yes people responsible for creating windows 8

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Gandalf
2014-06-11, 12:20 PM
Have you used one? If you can do it on chrome on another system you can probably do it on a chromebook, you want multiple activities? Tab Scissors, Splitscreen, or Splitview should work fine.

Want to use full programs? Put Crouton on and hit the shortcut to load up a full linux distro and do your stuff on there.

Could also plug in an hdmi monitor and use it as a dual monitor system.

Yes, I know, microsoft insists that there isn't any way to do anything useful on a chromebook, but they're not really the most trustworthy source here.

I meant because they are so small, they don't have the advantage of a large keyboard and plenty of room to work with. Plus its Google so, you know, avoid like the plauge if you value not living in the Matrix.


Something I forgot to mention. How do you stop the thing from randomly switching around when you touch the mouse-pad?

Max™
2014-06-11, 02:57 PM
Eh, of all the evil overlords we could have, Google is better by far than most.

AdmiralCheez
2014-06-11, 03:16 PM
I think the point still stands that if you have to change a bunch of settings and install new software to make it run like a different operating system, or at the very least, not piss you off, then it doesn't matter how efficient it is, it's not what people wanted.

Max™
2014-06-11, 07:29 PM
Something I forgot to mention. How do you stop the thing from randomly switching around when you touch the mouse-pad?
Missed this, do you mean chromebooks? There is a lot of hardware variation among them, the C720 I've had the most experience with and it seems to register the difference between a wrist or palm and deliberate fingertip inputs, it might also turn down the sensitivity due to the usb bluetooth dongle for a real mouse being plugged in, not sure there.

factotum
2014-06-12, 01:42 AM
I think the point still stands that if you have to change a bunch of settings and install new software to make it run like a different operating system, or at the very least, not piss you off, then it doesn't matter how efficient it is, it's not what people wanted.

I only partially agree. Yes, if you have to install third-party software to bring the thing to some semblance of usability then something is clearly not right, but if all you have to do is change settings provided in the OS itself, that's fine--that's giving the user a choice about how they work, and it was Windows 8 on its first release not giving any such choice that was the main issue. 8.1 has helped that somewhat--it's still not perfect, but it's certainly an improvement!

Jan Mattys
2014-06-12, 03:01 AM
The most useful keyboard shortcut you will ever know in Windows 8 is [Windows Key] + X, which opens a handy menu containing links to things like Control Panel that are otherwise very difficult to find. And no, I don't know why there isn't a GUI equivalent of that either.

Or you can just right click in the bottom-left corner. No need to know the shortcut.
:smallwink:

Visivicous
2014-06-12, 04:38 AM
It seems like Microsoft could have avoided all (or nearly all, there will always be some) negative reactions with a simple option when first signing in to the OS:

1. Would you prefer a Windows 7 like experience (Select this option if you are primarily using a keyboard/mouse)

2. Would you prefer to try the new 'Metro' User Interface (Select this option if you are primarily using a touch interface)

Either way, the metro UI was far too limited to be very useful. Just my opinion.

As far as customizing the operating system through built in options or third party programs, I've been doing that since '95. I don't see why it is such a big deal or hassle for some folks to do this with Win8. Other operating systems are similar in this respect. Just look how many distros there are for Linux!

dehro
2014-06-12, 05:56 AM
it becomes a hassle when you were doing just fine with windows 7 (but it applies to previous versions too) and are forcefed the new release, maybe even obbliged to pay for stuff you didn't need to "upgrade/update" in the first place.

AdmiralCheez
2014-06-12, 11:46 AM
I only partially agree. Yes, if you have to install third-party software to bring the thing to some semblance of usability then something is clearly not right, but if all you have to do is change settings provided in the OS itself, that's fine--that's giving the user a choice about how they work, and it was Windows 8 on its first release not giving any such choice that was the main issue. 8.1 has helped that somewhat--it's still not perfect, but it's certainly an improvement!

I'll agree on the built-in settings things. As long as the option for customization is there, it's fine. But I still can't figure out how Windows 8 made it all the way to release with two different interfaces and no easy way to customize which one you prefer. Windows has always been about customization, so it just doesn't make sense that they would suddenly change that philosophy at the same time they introduce a brand new style of interface. Clearly, it didn't work. It's good to hear that 8.1 was actually partially useful, though. The computers I tried to fix a while back didn't have that, and left me frustrated to the point where I'll just wait until Windows 9.



As far as customizing the operating system through built in options or third party programs, I've been doing that since '95. I don't see why it is such a big deal or hassle for some folks to do this with Win8. Other operating systems are similar in this respect. Just look how many distros there are for Linux!

For someone experienced with computers, yeah, it should be no problem. But your average grandmother, who has trouble figuring out how to underline things in Microsoft Word, shouldn't need to go through options menus and install unknown programs just to get the darn thing to work. Just the quick option you suggested would have saved a whole lot of trouble. It's baffling that no one thought of that in development.

Sallera
2014-06-12, 12:12 PM
I would venture a guess that someone did think of it - probably several someones - but management decided that keeping costs down by sticking to a single configuration was more important than pleasing everyone who preferred the old interface. If everyone uses the system the same way - regardless of what machine they're using it on - bugs get found and fixed faster, and maintenance costs are lower. Now, obviously, in hindsight, that was a terrible idea (try to please all of the people all of the time, no one ends up happy), and Microsoft knows it, as evidenced by their frantic backpedaling on the issue, but it's not hard to see why they did it in the first place. As a developer, it can be tempting, when you think you have a great new idea, to try and convince everyone else you're right, and they don't need the old ways any more. Occasionally, you're right. Most of the time... well, you get Windows 8.

Now, personally, Visivicous's comments have given me hope that I at least won't need to spend the extra money on a spare copy of Win7 when I replace my laptop. If the mod environment's progressed enough to ignore the Metro UI entirely, the performance improvements are probably worth the trouble.

factotum
2014-06-12, 02:56 PM
I would venture a guess that someone did think of it - probably several someones - but management decided that keeping costs down by sticking to a single configuration was more important than pleasing everyone who preferred the old interface.

It wasn't anything to do with costs. What Microsoft wanted to do was get a foot in the lucrative mobile phone market, and the logic went "Well, if everyone using the desktop Windows has the same UI that they'd get on a mobile, they'll already be used to it and will thus be more likely to get a Windows phone". This completely ignored that Apple and Google didn't do that to get their phone OSes to be the market leaders, of course, and also ignored that Microsoft's main problem in the mobile space was that the earlier versions of Windows Phone were really rather bad. I understand Windows 8 on mobile is actually rather good, but they have to overcome the negative reputation before they have a chance of gaining any traction.

GloatingSwine
2014-06-12, 06:10 PM
Protip for using Windows 8.

Type the name of the thing you want.

Windows will produce it using magic.

The start menu was, to me, functionally dead as soon as I realised I could type a few letters and get absolutely anything I wanted like I can with Spotlight. The start screen just does that a bit better.

Gnoman
2014-06-12, 06:51 PM
You can do that just fine in 7, you just have to hit the Windows Key first.

Gandalf
2014-06-12, 08:27 PM
Missed this, do you mean chromebooks? There is a lot of hardware variation among them, the C720 I've had the most experience with and it seems to register the difference between a wrist or palm and deliberate fingertip inputs, it might also turn down the sensitivity due to the usb bluetooth dongle for a real mouse being plugged in, not sure there.

No, windows 8. I would be in an app or normalish program and touch the mousepad and it would randomly take me elsewhere.

georgie_leech
2014-06-12, 09:04 PM
No, windows 8. I would be in an app or normalish program and touch the mousepad and it would randomly take me elsewhere.

I noticed with my laptop swiping from the side would switch between any apps (and the desktop is considered a single app) I had open. Does it happen when you only have a single app open? I don't mean on screen, but running at all.

Avilan the Grey
2014-06-13, 12:50 PM
Install Windows 8.1.
Uninstall all apps and replace with desktop versions.
Set Windows to always boot in Desktop mode.

Profit.

Windows 8.x has one big benefit, it is the first OS MS has made that takes LESS resources than it's predecessor. That is amazing and should be applauded to the point of sending them flowers. It is also very very stable.

The design decisions? Made by a drunken monkey.

factotum
2014-06-14, 03:08 AM
Install Windows 8.1.
Uninstall all apps and replace with desktop versions.
Set Windows to always boot in Desktop mode.

You do still have to visit Happy Fun Tile Land if you want to run an application that you don't have icon on the taskbar or desktop for, unfortunately--I think Microsoft are working on an actual Start menu for the next update, but it ain't here yet.

Razanir
2014-06-14, 04:48 PM
It's not that Windows 8 is a bad OS. It's actually quite nice. The main problem is that it's not designed for keyboard-and-mouse users. Sure, on a phone or tablet, it makes sense to have options just off the screen. But I like having a menu bar with that. Sure, on a phone, it works fine to have full-screen apps. But when you get up to 20-30" screens, it starts to get excessive.

I use Kubuntu, and to be honest, it feels like a better Windows 8 than Windows 8. The desktop environment (KDE) is obvious Windows-inspired. Except it adds features like being very customizeable, being able to split the screen into quarters, and using BASH for a command line.

Max™
2014-06-14, 04:59 PM
I've been having a problem with KDE recently due to some of my old favorite plasmoids running away with CPU usage due a refreshing glitch so the desktop jumps up to 35 or 40 percent use and sits there for a few minutes now and then. Swapped over to XFCE for now until I figure out what was doing it, I do miss my nvidia card monitor though, can't find one for XFCE that does a similar job yet, though I guess I could just try to get a conky working that has it.

noparlpf
2014-06-14, 06:28 PM
One of the computers at work apparently runs on 8. I don't like it. I pulled up the calculator because one of the doctors couldn't figure out how to do exponents or roots on her iPhone. And then I couldn't figure out how to make it go away. There's no convenient X button. What are these stupid full-screen smartphone-style apps? What happened to the windows in Windows?

Razanir
2014-06-14, 08:56 PM
One of the computers at work apparently runs on 8. I don't like it. I pulled up the calculator because one of the doctors couldn't figure out how to do exponents or roots on her iPhone. And then I couldn't figure out how to make it go away. There's no convenient X button. What are these stupid full-screen smartphone-style apps? What happened to the windows in Windows?

'Tis a strange day when you have more windows in Linux than in Windows.

Gandalf
2014-06-16, 01:05 PM
I noticed with my laptop swiping from the side would switch between any apps (and the desktop is considered a single app) I had open. Does it happen when you only have a single app open? I don't mean on screen, but running at all.

I am not sure. I always had the desktop open, and I think it sometimes took me from there to the app screen.

georgie_leech
2014-06-16, 08:40 PM
I am not sure. I always had the desktop open, and I think it sometimes took me from there to the app screen.

Hm. Alas, my laptop has come down with a sudden case of broken, so I can't check, but it wouldn't surprise me if having only a single app open and swiping brought you to the app screen. If you have a mouse, I think it was Fn+...F7 I think that locks the track pad, so you don't need to worry about it.

Avilan the Grey
2014-06-18, 02:53 AM
Windows 8.1 makes Windows 8 functional.
You can set it to default boot at desktop mode.
You get the start button (though it still only shows the grid) and they add the power option directly in the grid screen.

As long as you uninstall anything "App" or "App related" it will work nicely.

dehro
2014-06-18, 03:54 AM
it seems to me that the longstanding tradition of alternating good OS with crap ones is well and truly cherished by the denizens of Redmont.

Tengu_temp
2014-06-18, 04:21 AM
I can understand being frustrated with a ****ty, ass-backwards operation system. But do you really wish people who made them died? Come the **** on. Have some perspective.

dehro
2014-06-18, 05:00 AM
I can understand being frustrated with a ****ty, ass-backwards operation system. But do you really wish people who made them died? Come the **** on. Have some perspective.

That was clearly meant as a hyperbole. I didn't think anybody actually thought I would wish anybody dead.
which I don't.

tzukisan
2014-06-18, 06:17 AM
Aren't you sure you don't not want them dead?
:smallbiggrin:

Max™
2014-06-18, 06:46 PM
Yeah, I mean, I'm pretty rabidly pro-linux and I don't want them dead... perhaps just exiled to somewhere dark and terrible, a place of nightmares and shattered dreams, somewhere awful like... Ohio.