Cityscape City Guards

[pwykersotz]

I can't find the thread this was relevant to, so I thought I'd just post anew.

In Cityscape, they have 5th level warriors as standard guards and 10th level warriors as veteran guards. They have similar builds for burglars and merchants. I recall that most people here thought that guards in a town (outside specific guards for the king) shouldn't be higher than level 2 or so. Would anyone consider using these pre-statted guards/thieves/merchants in their own game?

[BowStreetRunner]

It really depends on your game world. Honestly, in a world where the guards are generally level 2, there aren't going to be a lot of cities left standing. The number of high-level threats out there would simply wipe out most civilizations eventually.

If you are running a 20-level game world, then you should stat out the guards accordingly. In an E6 campaign, I can see the guards being level 2. In a 20-level campaign having 5th and 10th level guards makes a lot more sense.

If you think of the world defined as a pyramid in which there are a small number of 20-level characters on top, those will be the truly elite, heroic figures in your world. Each tier under that will have a few more characters, but a bit less responsibility. 10th level is right in the middle and since the majority of the population is going to be lower level than this (remember it is a pyramid, not a square, so 10 is the median and not the average) then veteran 10th level guards will be able to handle most threats. The 5th level guards are going to be more the average, even if they are well below the mean, so will still be a useful deterrent.

If you are guarding something that high-level characters are likely to target however, you will start to consider investing in 15th level guards.

[Cicciograna]

I always thought that the level of guards and soldiers should be commensurated to those of the threats they have to face.

Thus a border village, frequently under the threat of wolves, orcs and other rampaging monsters will have guards of a higher level than those of a quiet hamlet situated in a fertile valley where nothing never happens; the guards of a metropolis riddled with thives' guilds, where crime activity is high, or where the population has reasons to riot will be of a higher level of those of a metropolis where the crime is almost non existant and the population is happy and quietly accepts and obeys the laws.

(Incidentally, this could be good even for other classes. A wizard living in a big center, where he has access to libraries, magical academies, meetings with peers and other magic users could potentially be higher level than the humble dabbler in magic who acts as the alchemist in a quiet and remote town.)

[Afgncaap5]

I wouldn't use those rules for Eberron. But I *would* use those rules for guards if one of the members of the party was a level 8 ranger in the style of Aragorn. (Or an 'at least' level 8 ranger.)

[VoxRationis]

I'm firmly of the belief that a standard soldier/guard/mercenary/thug should stand a reasonable chance of dying if hit by an ordinary weapon from an ordinary opponent they could expect to face, simply because it wrecks verisimilitude when all the NPCs take half a dozen arrows to the head before going down.

[awa]

i always dislike when they give regular people so many levels if the basic guards are level 5 why would anyone bother hiring a level 1 adventurer. It also makes most threats look dumb orcs go from being savage marauders to a nuisance unless in overwhelming numbers. Dragon raiding the country side just all the city guard to arrest him.

Its just bad game design


I wouldn't use those rules for Eberron. But I *would* use those rules for guards if one of the members of the party was a level 8 ranger in the style of Aragorn. (Or an 'at least' level 8 ranger.)

by that logic aragorn one of the greatest warriors of his world is less competent then a veteran city guards men?

[nyjastul69]

i always dislike when they give regular people so many levels if the basic guards are level 5 why would anyone bother hiring a level 1 adventurer. It also makes most threats look dumb orcs go from being savage marauders to a nuisance unless in overwhelming numbers. Dragon raiding the country side just all the city guard to arrest him.

Its just bad game design



by that logic aragorn one of the greatest warriors of his world is less competent then a veteran city guards men?

I think it's because adventurer's are expendable, city guards are not.

[OldTrees1]

I structure my city guard based on the higher of the NPCs the law enforcement would regularly encounter or the monsters/NPCs the city would regularly encounter.

I usually structure my campaigns such that the PCs start above the average but below the maximum for the non-unique population.

Since I usually like levels 8-12, 10th level guards are not unreasonable but I would probably use 6th level instead.


Summary:
Desired PC growth range
=determines> Campaign structure
=determines> encounters guards face
=determines> guard levels

[Gavinfoxx]

I actually had these guys statted out for a firearms-using game:

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=667934

It was a lot of work finding a class that actually had the class features to, you know, do the basic job of watch / guard / soldiers / etc.

[Vertharrad]

I think it's because adventurer's are expendable, city guards are not.

So why wouldn't the city guards take the adventurers place and get the better pay? While the adventurers take their place and not have to worry about dying to the dragon that the city guard could pimp slap? Why would I go out and risk my life when I know the cops could kick my butt soundly and do my job better? Answer I wouldn't. Theres a reason adventurers are needed. Theyre courageous, skilled, reckless, and brave. But if a beat cop can take them down theres no reason to keep adventuring...

[nyjastul69]

So why wouldn't the city guards take the adventurers place and get the better pay? While the adventurers take their place and not have to worry about dying to the dragon that the city guard could pimp slap? Why would I go out and risk my life when I know the cops could kick my butt soundly and do my job better? Answer I wouldn't. Theres a reason adventurers are needed. Theyre courageous, skilled, reckless, and brave. But if a beat cop can take them down theres no reason to keep adventuring...

My guess would be that the city guard like getting a regular wage while not having to deal with the danger of 4 level appropriate encounters per adventuring day. Adventurers risk life and limb for irregular pay and no bennies.

[Vertharrad]

Your missing the point. If me the peoples champion can be curb stomped by a beat cop, much less the dragon, why don't I just become a cop myself and get the same "safe" wage. Heroes are supposed to be legendary, if they can be beat by Bob the guard why would I go fight a creature much deadlier? When the cop could more efficiently deal with such creature?

[OldTrees1]

Your missing the point. If me the peoples champion can be curb stomped by a beat cop, much less the dragon, why don't I just become a cop myself and get the same "safe" wage. Heroes are supposed to be legendary, if they can be beat by Bob the guard why would I go fight a creature much deadlier? When the cop could more efficiently deal with such creature?

1st level street urchin has a sickly relative. He/She is not powerful enough to qualify for the safe city guard position. So he/she heads out to explore the dangerous dungeon nearby. If lucky the street urchin will be able to get in and out with enough money to care for his/her relative.

Thus was a hero born.

Eventually the hero gets powerful enough to qualify for the city guard. However by then he/she has become involved in matters that cannot be dropped. Unlike normal civilian, the hero find they must continue to make the sacrifice for the good of others. So he/she turns his/her back on the safer city guard position and continue the sacrifice of the hero.

Thus was a legend born.

[Vertharrad]

Yeah the sickly child was lucky enough to steal enough treasure needed to save their relatives...but the creature they couldn't come close to killing finds their stuff taken and with the righteous need to make someone responsible tracks the culprit back to the city. The city gets attacked the relatives along with the child and other people are killed. The city guard were able to deal with the threat, but have taken casualties too, seeing adventurers as a threat to the peoples well being they outlaw adventurers and take up the mantle of protectors adventuring out themselves to keep the peace and needing their ranks filled so that the city isn't defenseless itself.

Why would I sacrifice myself when theres someone ready to billy club me to the ground that has more training and experience?

The bigger question here is why do you need guards that can stomp your adventurers into the ground? If their making too much trouble while in town take the player aside and have a talk with them or the whole group if it's more than 1. Don't escalate issues. Now if the area theyre in is that dangerous fine make a distinction on how robust your guards or city npcs need to be to survive in their environment.

Your asking people to play a game where it's their PC that's supposed to feel competent and heroe like...instead of like second rate npc's themselves.

[OldTrees1]

Let's start with this first

Your asking people to play a game where it's their PC that's supposed to feel competent and heroe like...instead of like second rate npc's themselves.
As I described above, I plan my campaigns such that PCs start as above average and grow to legendary. You do not need to design your campaigns to be based on the hero's path. However please understand us that do use the hero's path.


Yeah the sickly child was lucky enough to steal enough treasure needed to save their relatives...but the creature they couldn't come close to killing finds their stuff taken and with the righteous need to make someone responsible tracks the culprit back to the city. The city gets attacked the relatives along with the child and other people are killed. The city guard were able to deal with the threat, but have taken casualties too, seeing adventurers as a threat to the peoples well being they outlaw adventurers and take up the mantle of protectors adventuring out themselves to keep the peace and needing their ranks filled so that the city isn't defenseless itself.
The guards have better training, greater numbers and more favorable terrain (fortifications instead of trapped ground). The guard may suffer injuries and maybe 1 fatality(extremely rare given the advantages). So I do not expect the predicted social change to occur. [Sidenote: Who said the street urchin(not a sickly child) wasn't lucky enough to kill the creature?]



The bigger question here is why do you need guards that can stomp your adventurers into the ground? If their making too much trouble while in town take the player aside and have a talk with them or the whole group if it's more than 1. Don't escalate issues. Now if the area theyre in is that dangerous fine make a distinction on how robust your guards or city npcs need to be to survive in their environment.

1) I do not advise stomping.
2) Guards are in game, they are not there for out of game problems.
3) Yes, the environment/criminals the guard faces should determine the guard level. (and thus vice versa)

But I have not answered your question yet. What benefit would guards of similar level (slightly higher to slightly lower) have on a campaign?

Stealth missions are meaningless if there is no challenge. The player that likes stealth missions will sit bored if there is no chance of failure. The same is true for any meaningful opposed checks. If the player likes encounters around that kind of opposed check, the worst thing you can do is punish then by skipping over it via pushover opponents. [Note: Sometimes the players accidentally do this to themselves by choosing opponents that are too weak. In those cases they need to sleep in the bed they made.]

[awa]

Stealth missions are meaningless if there is no challenge. The player that likes stealth missions will sit bored if there is no chance of failure. The same is true for any meaningful opposed checks. If the player likes encounters around that kind of opposed check, the worst thing you can do is punish then by skipping over it via pushover opponents. [Note: Sometimes the players accidentally do this to themselves by choosing opponents that are too weak. In those cases they need to sleep in the bed they made.]

You are confusing city guards and guards. A level 11 characters is according to legend lore a legendary figure if they are doing a stealth mission it should be against equally impressive foes elite forces secret orders not the generic peace keeping force of any given city. Stealth missions against the city watch should be reserved for low level against level 1-2 guards with guard dogs if you want to make it real challenging.

This basically assumes that every single police Sergent or guard captain is on verge of being a legendary warrior whose name is far and wide. Now i could see settings where this is the case but default fantasy setting no, it breaks immersion. I have played in games where npc level scaled with pc level without regard to logic and have found few things more frustrating.

[OldTrees1]

You are confusing city guards and guards. A level 11 characters is according to legend lore a legendary figure if they are doing a stealth mission it should be against equally impressive foes elite forces secret orders not the generic peace keeping force of any given city. Stealth missions against the city watch should be reserved for low level against level 1-2 guards with guard dogs if you want to make it real challenging.

This basically assumes that every single police Sergent or guard captain is on verge of being a legendary warrior whose name is far and wide. Now i could see settings where this is the case but default fantasy setting no, it breaks immersion. I have played in games where npc level scaled with pc level without regard to logic and have found few things more frustrating.

So if I put the level 11 PCs in a legendary city where the guards have to deal with legendary challenges, I am playing D&D wrong? I must put the level 11 PCs in some middle of nowhere mundane village? No? Then why the hostility?

Remember the "default fantasy setting" (Conan, Arthur, Aragon, ...) you refer to is E6 not level 11.

Sidenote: In our discussion, you were the first to name the level. I was merely arguing the general case that it is not unreasonable to stage a campaign in an enviroment/social situation such that the PCs start at lower level than the guards start.

[Urpriest]

Let's say we have a large city of 20,000 people. This is the kind of place with 40,000gp magic items for sale, so at least some of the merchants have access to the wares produced by a 12ish level caster. Indeed, there are 12 or so casters with that kind of power in the city. We can assume that a few of the merchants who interact with them are similarly powerful.

The highest level warrior in the city is somewhere between 11th and 17th level. There are three people like that, so we can think of those as the veteran members of the city guard, the people who are in command or who are sent out on the most dangerous assignments. There are then six or so characters of 5th to 8th level, and twelve of 2nd to 4th. You'll maybe get another round of up to twenty-four 2nd level guards if the levels are high, but probably not.

Most of the city's warriors are first level. They comprise 5% of the remaining population after high level characters and PC classed characters are taken into account. That's 1000 people, or close to it.

The thing is, not all of those people are going to be guards. Much more likely, they'll be soldiers, or thugs, or just rough-and tumble laborers, or former conscripts who still remember a bit of what it was like in the last war.

In a modern city, there are about 2 policemen per 1000 inhabitants, and we have much higher expectations regarding the rule of law than a D&D city would. 2 guards per 1000 citizens gives us 40 guards total. Considering that high level warriors make more sense as guards than soldiers, that suggests that most of the guards are actually mid to high level. The guards are 5th level warriors not because this is a high level world, but simply because there just aren't enough guard jobs to hire many low level characters.

This also explains why the guards aren't going out and solving problems. It's 50 guys, and they have jobs at home. They're warriors, so they don't have the class features for adventuring anyway. Unless you're saving the city (and if you're saving a city of this size, you'd better be at least 11th level yourself) the guards don't have reason to get involved.

[awa]

So if I put the level 11 PCs in a legendary city where the guards have to deal with legendary challenges, I am playing D&D wrong? I must put the level 11 PCs in some middle of nowhere mundane village? No? Then why the hostility?

Remember the "default fantasy setting" (Conan, Arthur, Aragon, ...) you refer to is E6 not level 11.

Sidenote: In our discussion, you were the first to name the level. I was merely arguing the general case that it is not unreasonable to stage a campaign in an enviroment/social situation such that the PCs start at lower level than the guards start.

you seem to have misread some posts the level 5 for basic guards and level 10 for veterans is straight from the opening post. I never said you were doing it wrong i said a city where every single beat cop is a elite commando able to slaughter a half dozen orcs single handily is not standard. You can run that game if you want it's not wrong but you cant pretend its the default.

Again you seem not to grasp that level 11 pc should not be fighting the town guard in a normal fantasy game they should be fighting elite guards not the people who grab pick pockets. So no i'm not saying they should be in the middle of nowhere im saying the guys that legendary heroes face should be worth there time.

Originally there was no hostility intended but since you did not actually read my post there is a bit. Not much mind you but i am a tad annoyed that i need to repeat the same points you actually quoted.

[OldTrees1]

you seem to have misread some posts the level 5 for basic guards and level 10 for veterans is straight from the opening post. I never said you were doing it wrong i said a city where every single beat cop is a elite commando able to slaughter a half dozen orcs single handily is not standard. You can run that game if you want it's not wrong but you cant pretend its the default.

Again you seem not to grasp that level 11 pc should not be fighting the town guard in a normal fantasy game they should be fighting elite guards not the people who grab pick pockets. So no i'm not saying they should be in the middle of nowhere im saying the guys that legendary heroes face should be worth there time.

Originally there was no hostility intended but since you did not actually read my post there is a bit. Not much mind you but i am a tad annoyed that i need to repeat the same points you actually quoted.

A few things.
1) I replied to the OP within the specific context of the level 5 & level 10 guards. I replied to you in the general context of PCs starting as lower level than guards. (See posts 12-13) I supported this with the concept of the hero's path (which is common in normal fantasy).

2) As Ur Priest showed via population statistics, guards being mid-level is normal.

3) I never claimed anything as default.

4) I apologize for reading too much into what you were saying. You did not intend to be hostile so I must have misinterpreted what you wrote.

5) Why would there be Elite guards that are better than the city guards? They could just take the easy safe city guard position.

[Seharvepernfan]

I can't find the thread this was relevant to, so I thought I'd just post anew.

In Cityscape, they have 5th level warriors as standard guards and 10th level warriors as veteran guards. They have similar builds for burglars and merchants. I recall that most people here thought that guards in a town (outside specific guards for the king) shouldn't be higher than level 2 or so. Would anyone consider using these pre-statted guards/thieves/merchants in their own game?

I think the logic is that, in a D&D world, people are more likely to be experienced via dealing with D&D world threats. Consider that the people of a D&D world have been dealing with orcs/dragons/undead/demons/mindflayers/chimeras/whatever for thousands and thousands of years. There's probably a decent number of leveled people. In real-life, it's almost exclusively people vs. people (with a few rare cases of people vs. animals), and 99% of us don't have to do that, ever.

So, yeah, I would consider using those stats. I probably wouldn't use them specifically; I'd build my own 5th/10th level guards/thieves/merchants.