spamming summon elysian thrush

[ericgrau]

So I was thinking of a bardbarian build and while looking through low level spells I came across summon elysian thrush. It's supposed to be a utility spell that gives a trivial boost to natural healing via a colorful, magical tropical songbird. But it has an 8 hour duration. My very first thought is, oh then I can summon dozens of these... An elysium thrush has a +5 to hit with only 1 damage, but it does have an attack. And 5 hp. Besides going for lucky rolls to get damage, it could be used for aid another abuse both for AC and to hit. You could unload an entire 4500 gp wand right before a BBEG final fight to insure victory via sweet colorful flock of doom.

Besides aid and other and damage, I wonder if there is anything you could do with a ton of birds. I did do a forum search and the only mention of the spell I got was basically "wtf, I got a wand of summon elysian thrush, time to sell."

As a side note while spell sifting I also noticed the spell shock and awe. Whenever you get a surprise round you can give foes a -10 to initiative with a swift action. Seems like the best spell ever to put on a 25 gp scroll. Draw the scroll before the ambush to save the move action. It's effectively mass double nerveskitter. And it has no somatic component so it's armor-wearing-gish friendly.

[VoxRationis]

Well, whatever it's good for, it's not good for actually healing. It heals effectively for character level over a period of 8 hours. Cure moderate wounds, for the same level of spell, does 2d8 plus caster level in a round.

[ericgrau]

Well it heals everyone and it heals ability damage too. It's also interesting for mass rest effect stacking abuse and for fast healing. But ya, it's weak that way and I'm looking more for mass minion abuse.

[nedz]

You're a Bard — so buff your flock of songbirds.
DFI + regular Inspire should boost that +5 / 1 towards something useful.
It has quite a nice flavour too.

Ed: sp

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by ericgrau
....to insure victory via sweet colorful flock of doom.


Originally Posted by nedz
You['re] a Bard — so buff your flock of songbirds.
DFI + regular Inspire should boost that +5 / 1 towards something useful.

o gawd.

now I must do something with this image.

:smalltongue:

[Jack_Simth]

Your a Bard — so buff your flock of songbirds.
DFI + regular Inspire should boost that +5 / 1 towards something useful.
It has quite a nice flavour too.

Don't forget to add Words of Creation!

[Yorrin]

My mind went right to Bard as well.

Silverbrow Bard 8/Crusader 1

with Vest of Legends, Song of the White Raven, Song of the Heart, Dragonfire Inspiration, Words of Creation. You've got a +4 or so IC, doubled with WoC to +8. SotWR makes IC a swift action, so on turn 1:

Swift: IC
Standard: DFI
Move: Laugh like a maniac as your army of birds rush in with a +9/8d6+9 attack. Remembering that you're a 9th level character.

[Darrin]

Aid Attack/Aid Another. Wand of 50 charges = +100 to attack or +100 on a skill check.

[nedz]

I was wondering if you could so something with Imbued Summoning too, unfortunately Bard spells aren't too good for this purpose.

Invisibility Sphere would be amusing.

Resounding Voice (Heroes of Battle) could be used to extend the range of it's song to 100'/CL rather than 30' — which might be good for armies.

[JeminiZero]

I would like to note that it has a 10 minute casting time. Which means that to discharge an entire wand before storming the BBEG's room will take you 500 minutes or 8 hours and 20 minutes... by which point some of your birds would have started disappearing. You can probably only cast it at most 47 times, and then you have 10 minutes to use them before the earliest ones starts disappearing.

That's still a lot of birds though.

[Kennisiou]

I would like to note that it has a 10 minute casting time. Which means that to discharge an entire wand before storming the BBEG's room will take you 500 minutes or 8 hours and 20 minutes... by which point some of your birds would have started disappearing. You can probably only cast it at most 47 times, and then you have 10 minutes to use them before the earliest ones starts disappearing.

That's still a lot of birds though.

Or by RAW you can take the feat that lets you dual-wield wands, wield two wands of the spell, and take a full-round action to cast it once from each wand even though the casting time is longer. It reduces the casting time by a factor of a 100 and gives you 2 uses per cast.

Because I guess the people who wrote and errata'd that feat either forgot that spells with a casting time longer than full-round could be put in wands or decided that wand-users needed some love?

[dextercorvia]

Or, trap your spell component pouch with a resetting trap of Summon Elysian Thrush.

[Rubik]

A repeating, resetting trap of Summon Elysium Thrush followed by a trap of Polymorph Any Object to turn the birds into hydras?

[dextercorvia]

A repeating, resetting trap of Summon Elysium Thrush followed by a trap of Polymorph Any Object to turn the birds into hydras?

There is very little that can't be broken once players get a hold of the trap rules.

[Kennisiou]

A repeating, resetting trap of Summon Elysium Thrush followed by a trap of Polymorph Any Object to turn the birds into hydras?

http://www.popcults.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/hail-hydra-captain-america-the-winter-soldier-twitter-meme-11.jpg


Also on tangeant, I'm now imagining great things to trap spell component pouches with. Traps of heal, traps of clw on a spell component pouch are probably pretty great both for in-combat and out-of-combat healing and are pretty cheap...

[ericgrau]

My mind went right to Bard as well.

Silverbrow Bard 8/Crusader 1

with Vest of Legends, Song of the White Raven, Song of the Heart, Dragonfire Inspiration, Words of Creation. You've got a +4 or so IC, doubled with WoC to +8. SotWR makes IC a swift action, so on turn 1:

Swift: IC
Standard: DFI
Move: Laugh like a maniac as your army of birds rush in with a +9/8d6+9 attack. Remembering that you're a 9th level character.

Nice, why didn't I think of that? I should have mentioned that their actual damage is 1d2-5, but every attack does a minimum of 1 damage. If I understand correctly you'll end up with +14/8d6+4. Still nutso. About half should hit for about 32 damage a pop. So 10 birds or so should be plenty to win.

[TiaC]

Use Regal Procession (http://dndtools.eu/spells/spell-compendium--86/regal-procession--4084/) instead. It's one level higher, but lasts longer and summons more. The wand would cost 2.5 times as much, but each charge summons five light horses for 10 hours and doesn't take 10 minutes.

[ericgrau]

They're animals not magical beasts and don't know the command "attack" though.

OTOH elysian thrush doesn't say specifically that it attacks foes either, unlike summon monster. And they have an int 2. Maybe you'd have to use speak with animals with either spell.

[nedz]

Is an elysian thrush an animal then ?
(I don't have MoP)

[Jack_Simth]

A repeating, resetting trap of Summon Elysium Thrush followed by a trap of Polymorph Any Object to turn the birds into hydras?
They don't have the hit dice for that, sadly. You could probably do dogs (but not the riding variety) to make it so they don't provoke AoO's for attacking (and get their damage up slightly), but if you're planning on spamming the spell, you want as many of them as possible attacking at once... and you just exhaust enemy AoO's by attacking all at once.


Is an elysian thrush an animal then ?
(I don't have MoP)


Magical Beast

[Pathagaron]

You might want them to provoke AoO, though. Also, since they are smaller, you can fit more of them in a square. Something to watch out for though would be a BBEG with great cleave and some buff based on killing stuff or a cleric with consumptive field or something. Alternatively, a 5th level wizard mook with a fireball could ruin your day.

[Rubik]

They don't have the hit dice for that, sadly.The PAO spell apparently bypasses HD, since otherwise you could neither Polymorph a shrew into a manticore (too few HD), nor could you Polymorph a marionette into a human (no HD at all). The spell doesn't say that, but it'd have to for any of the examples to make any sense at all.

[BornValyrian]

You could use rapid spell to make the casting time one minute (I know there are ways to apply metamagic to wands, though I don't know the names of any at the moment). Alternately, you could have a runecaster friend scribe a permanent rune of Summon Elysian Thrush on your pouch.

[nedz]

The PAO spell apparently bypasses HD, since otherwise you could neither Polymorph a shrew into a manticore (too few HD), nor could you Polymorph a marionette into a human (no HD at all). The spell doesn't say that, but it'd have to for any of the examples to make any sense at all.

Since when have examples meant anything ?
Sorry, but we have far too many examples of examples being wrong that this is most probably just another example of an example being wrong.

[Rubik]

Since when have examples meant anything ?
Sorry, but we have far too many examples of examples being wrong that this is most probably just another example of an example being wrong.One of the primary functions of PAO is to turn a nonmagical, non-animated object into a living creature. There's literally no way to do that if the spell doesn't bypass those restrictions.

[Deophaun]

Since when have examples meant anything ?
Sorry, but we have far too many examples of examples being wrong that this is most probably just another example of an example being wrong.
The examples that are wrong appear in places removed from the rules that make them wrong. When an example is used right next to the rule it is highlighting, then the example is explanatory and RAW should be interpreted in light of the example given.

Doesn't necessarily apply in this case, though, as the rule is in the polymorph entry, not PAO where the example is, and those examples are in tables, which is trumped by text.

[Chronos]

More to the point, the rules don't apply because it's Polymorph Any Object, and no rules apply to that mess of a spell.

[ericgrau]

So mount is an animal, elysian thrush are magical beast. Both have int 2. No time to teach either to attack on command. Spells don't say they attack automatically. Unlike summon monster #. Summon monster also says those summons respond to commands if you can communicate with them somehow. Mount (and therefore regal procession) says "... to serve you as a mount. The steed serves willingly and well." Elysian thrush says nothing on directing the thrush.

Anybody know any rules on directing either one to attack?

The summoning rules don't say if you have absolute control over the summon, but they do imply that the summon might refuse to do certain things


Summoning

A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower. It is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can’t be summoned again.

When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire. A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have, and it refuses to cast any spells that would cost it XP, or to use any spell-like abilities that would cost XP if they were spells.

I imagine a bunch of low intelligence instictive horses or a flock of birds might panic and flee from a fight even when they have death flames shooting out of their nostrils. "Behold the might of my burning flock!! Our victory is certain. Hey, hey you! Where are you going? Get back here!"

Maybe some kind of psychic communication could work? PaO grants the intelligence of a new form but not necessary language. Maybe that could help creatures overcome instinctive fears?

[nedz]

More to the point, the rules don't apply because it's Polymorph Any Object, and no rules apply to that mess of a spell.
Yes, PAO does top this list of spells with the most dysfunctions.

One of the primary functions of PAO is to turn a nonmagical, non-animated object into a living creature. There's literally no way to do that if the spell doesn't bypass those restrictions.Polymorph Any Object See Dysfunctional Rules Thread 3 page 27 and Dysfunctional Rules Thread 4 page 12

[Rubik]

Polymorph Any Object See Dysfunctional Rules Thread 3 page 27 and Dysfunctional Rules Thread 4 page 12PAO shows up on neither of those pages.

[Chronos]

Hm, even if you can't get the thrushes/mounts to attack, how about Linked Perception (PHB2)? That just requires that the subjects be your allies, which both spells should count as. Never fail a Listen or Spot check again!

[nedz]

Thread 3 page 27 Posts 797-803

There is a slight error in the collection for the next one since it starts on page 11 Posts #322 though the discussion peaks on page 12 Posts #345-#356

[ericgrau]

Hm, even if you can't get the thrushes/mounts to attack, how about Linked Perception (PHB2)? That just requires that the subjects be your allies, which both spells should count as. Never fail a Listen or Spot check again!
Hmm, and they wouldn't fail a check either, making them even better as scouts. And trap bait while we're at it.

[Zaq]

Elysian Thrushes are actually good at healing, as long as you stack a few modifiers on top (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?189716-Boosting-Rest-Based-Healing-A-Microguide-3-5).

[Rubik]

Note that (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metamorphosis.htm) most shapeshifting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#wildShape) heals you (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm) as though you rested for a night. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#skinofProteus)

[Zaq]

Note that (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metamorphosis.htm) most shapeshifting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#wildShape) heals you (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm) as though you rested for a night. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#skinofProteus)

Oh. Oh dear. Dear me.

That makes the stuff in my rest-boosting microguide terrifying. It's probably good that I don't have an active 3.5 game right now, because the temptation to combine those would be . . . strong.

[Rubik]

Oh. Oh dear. Dear me.

That makes the stuff in my rest-boosting microguide terrifying. It's probably good that I don't have an active 3.5 game right now, because the temptation to combine those would be . . . strong.The psychoactive skin alone means you can heal yourself up at will. Also, note that for +1 LA you can take the divine minion template, which grants you wild shape (and thus, healing), also at will.

[Pinkie Pyro]

is there any way to lower the casting time of this to a full round action or less, so that you could apply quicken to it?

[dextercorvia]

is there any way to lower the casting time of this to a full round action or less, so that you could apply quicken to it?

Yes. It is weird though. Uncanny Forethought lets you spontaneously cast spells you have used Spell Mastery one as a standard action. So, you need a Wizard level, the ability to cast Summon Elysian Thrush (Prestige Bard is probably the easiest way to get this), Spell Mastery naming Summon Elysian Thrush, Uncanny Forethought, Quicken Spell, and Rapid Metamagic. While you are at it, since you have built your entire character around this one spell, you might as well take Arcane Thesis (Summon Elysian Thrush).:smallbiggrin:

[Pinkie Pyro]

Yes. It is weird though. Uncanny Forethought lets you spontaneously cast spells you have used Spell Mastery one as a standard action. So, you need a Wizard level, the ability to cast Summon Elysian Thrush (Prestige Bard is probably the easiest way to get this), Spell Mastery naming Summon Elysian Thrush, Uncanny Forethought, Quicken Spell, and Rapid Metamagic. While you are at it, since you have built your entire character around this one spell, you might as well take Arcane Thesis (Summon Elysian Thrush).:smallbiggrin:

Cool, now to get a 14th level spell slot using sanctum spell+chameleon abuse, innate spell, and boom, infinite uses quickened summon elysian thrush.

[Thugorp]

So mount is an animal, elysian thrush are magical beast. Both have int 2. No time to teach either to attack on command. Spells don't say they attack automatically. Unlike summon monster #. Summon monster also says those summons respond to commands if you can communicate with them somehow. Mount (and therefore regal procession) says "... to serve you as a mount. The steed serves willingly and well." Elysian thrush says nothing on directing the thrush.

Anybody know any rules on directing either one to attack?

The summoning rules don't say if you have absolute control over the summon, but they do imply that the summon might refuse to do certain things

I imagine a bunch of low intelligence instictive horses or a flock of birds might panic and flee from a fight even when they have death flames shooting out of their nostrils. "Behold the might of my burning flock!! Our victory is certain. Hey, hey you! Where are you going? Get back here!"

Maybe some kind of psychic communication could work? PaO grants the intelligence of a new form but not necessary language. Maybe that could help creatures overcome instinctive fears?

Yep, Simple D.C.:15 Handel Animal check to, "push a creature to do a task it isn't trained for." That gets it done right quick.

[Piggy Knowles]

This spell and the aid other trick were actually the basis for one of my recent showcases: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?583657-Optimization-Showcase-in-the-Playground-Gladys-Knight-and-the-Pips

I ended up scrapping Elysian thrushes for expeditious messengers (via summon marked homonculus) because I found it too difficult to reliably get their aid check as high as I needed it (Int 2 and magical beast meant most aura-type effects didn’t apply), but it’s still a cool idea, and I did talk a bit about ways to make the thrushes work. Do note that the thrushes are tiny rather than diminutive like the messengers though, so only four can share a space. That does provide an upper limit on your aid other shenanigans even if you do find a way to reliably boost their checks to always succeed.

[Roland St. Jude]

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