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Sploggle1
2014-04-19, 04:55 PM
I am a 3.5 Dm and player that uses 1e, and 2e elements, but besides that. I came across this newer RPG at Barnes and Noble. One of my players wants to try it out since they are tired of DND. From when I looked through it it seemed just okay but playable. Personally since they are hard core leaning toward final fantasy I would lean into making a final fantasy world for this game.
But what are yalls thoughts on anima beyond fantasy?

TheThan
2014-04-19, 07:34 PM
A friend tried to hook me on it.
I took a look at the rules and decided I wasn’t interested.
The system felt like it was trying to be two different types of systems, a skill based system, and a class based system. To me at least, it’s contradictory.

He and a few other friends actually played it for a few months, and it apparently suffers some translation problem as well as being extremely complicated; which is my major complaint. I don’t need five different methods of punching someone’s lights out, just one will suffice. Options are fine, but they should be up to the discretion of the DM as to whether they get used or not.

Maybe someone else can comment on it in greater detail.

Airk
2014-04-20, 06:33 PM
I haven't played it either, but the popular consensus seems to be that it's not very good.

If you're looking to go for a sort of Final Fantasy feeling, I might suggest Tenra Bansho Zero (http://kotodama.bigcartel.com/) instead.

Braininthejar2
2014-04-20, 06:48 PM
Tried it. After 5 games, a total of two people had any understanding of the rules, and the last game ended when they started arguing over rules interpretation in the middle of the fight.

Then we switched to Savage Worlds mechanics

Lord Raziere
2014-04-20, 07:34 PM
fluff:
really good. has a sense of mysticism and wonder that I don't find anywhere else, cool magic, the Nephilim are awesome things to play, and it has a really well thought out world.

Crunch:
its complicated. while I appreciate how different they make the magic from each other and none of the races or options feel samey, its math-heavy system where if you don't know how to balance your development points, you won't get good results, and all rolls involve d100, and its just not a system thats easy to learn.

Overall:
its a good setting, married to complicated mechanics- or at least complicated character creation mechanics, I never experienced how they work in play outside like a skill roll or two. however I wouldn't use something like FATE or Savage Worlds for it, because it would make everything way too samey. I'd instead use Mutants and Masterminds, which captures what they're going for without as much complexity.

katarl
2014-04-21, 01:32 PM
I'm a big fan of Anima (See my signature), I consider it my favourite of all systems, but it is not for everyone.

The plus side is you can build pretty much any kind of character you like, with insanely powerful abilities, even at low levels, and get up to the kind of shenanigans that high-powered anime shows portray (some of the abilities are ripped straight from DBZ, Bleach, Naruto, Tsukihime etc.). It's a d100 system with "Open" rolls, which combined with the huge array of abilities available, fights will be unpredictable, which is a major plus, and you're unlikely to ever run into a character who's basically the same as you.

The minus side is that it's very complicated, with charts, tables and page-flipping. There's a table for attacking, for counterattacking, for armour value/attack comparisons, there's seven types of armour class, eight attributes and six hundred development points to spend. This makes creating a character slow, and gives the game a steep learning curve. The setting is also pretty generic, there are various places the rules don't make any sense, and there are balance issues everywhere (power-wise, it's heavily weighted towards magic and ki powers, a straight weaponmaster is near unplayable).

If creating very customized anime-themed characters, complex, unpredictable combat and using incredibly over-the-top powers at all levels appeals to you, and you don't mind investing the time to master the system, then I'd recommend Anima to you.

If you want a more casual experience, but want an Anime-style game, I'd recommend BESM to you instead.

CombatOwl
2014-04-21, 03:15 PM
Its okay. The rules are problematic, especially putting competition between combat ability and noncombat skills. You end up being really good at combat or really good at a handful of skills. Its... playable, but not good.

katarl
2014-04-21, 04:08 PM
Its okay. The rules are problematic, especially putting competition between combat ability and noncombat skills. You end up being really good at combat or really good at a handful of skills. Its... playable, but not good.

Knowing where to put your development points is part of the learning curve. When you first make your character, it's difficult to know what's 'good' and what isn't. However, having the choice to play a pure skill-jockey without combat in a game is a plus, not a minus.

You may not know that the most you can put into combat is 60% of your points (360pts), so that leaves 40% for skills, which isn't bad at all. The reprinting of Anima gave Natural bonuses to a mental and a physical secondary skill, and five +10 bonuses to any secondary skill, so if you're not playing a hybrid class, you can have plenty of skills.

Airk
2014-04-21, 06:57 PM
Knowing where to put your development points is part of the learning curve. When you first make your character, it's difficult to know what's 'good' and what isn't. However, having the choice to play a pure skill-jockey without combat in a game is a plus, not a minus.

I general, this is referred to as 'system mastery' and it is often regarded as an undesirable trait. You can have a system in which you can have a "skill junkie with no combat skills" WITHOUT having "Good" and "bad" character building choices.

Can you build a character who is crippled by making decisions that seem good in theory? Then it's a bad system, and the fact that you can learn how not to do that does not mitigate the badness.

zabbarot
2014-04-22, 03:29 PM
I general, this is referred to as 'system mastery' and it is often regarded as an undesirable trait. You can have a system in which you can have a "skill junkie with no combat skills" WITHOUT having "Good" and "bad" character building choices.

Can you build a character who is crippled by making decisions that seem good in theory? Then it's a bad system, and the fact that you can learn how not to do that does not mitigate the badness.

From what I've played of it the only real way to build a 'bad' character is to spread yourself too thin, which is pretty easy, but honestly if you're doing that you're probably already aware that it isn't going to be optimal :smalltongue: Everything that can be focused on is good in it's own right.

I honestly wouldn't even go so far as to say that the rules are all that complicated, it's just the book is layed out very, very poorly. It's the sort of book where you need a physical copy marked up with tabs so you can jump around to reference things. Character creation is a monster because it's the first thing you'll try to do and because it's spread across the whole book in a way that makes sense but doesn't flow well. It's like the rules were put in in the order they were thought of instead of sorted into chapters at the end.

The actual game play is really straight forward though. There is some math, but everything is multiples of 5 and percentages. It's about as easy as math gets.

Tengu_temp
2014-04-22, 05:06 PM
Anima is built like a 90s RPG - lots of rules, lots of math, lots of different abilities, very little mechanical self-consistency, a class-based system with a huge amount of classes which all work in different ways. It's a bit of a cluster****, personally I prefer more streamlined games.



If creating very customized anime-themed characters, complex, unpredictable combat and using incredibly over-the-top powers at all levels appeals to you, and you don't mind investing the time to master the system, then I'd recommend Anima to you.

If you want a more casual experience, but want an Anime-style game, I'd recommend BESM to you instead.

I'd recommend Mutants and Masterminds over BESM. It can do all the same things, but better - I know what I'm talking about, most if not all of my M&M games were heavily anime-inspired. M&M also has the bonus of being relatively easy to learn, fast to play, and letting you build precisely the type of character you want, without class-based limitations. It also lets you easily build your own powers.

katarl
2014-04-23, 07:26 AM
I general, this is referred to as 'system mastery' and it is often regarded as an undesirable trait. You can have a system in which you can have a "skill junkie with no combat skills" WITHOUT having "Good" and "bad" character building choices.

Can you build a character who is crippled by making decisions that seem good in theory? Then it's a bad system, and the fact that you can learn how not to do that does not mitigate the badness.

More freedom in a rpg is good for experienced players because it means you can try something different and do more, but bad for new ones, as it can be confusing, and they can easily make mistakes. Think of it as a spectrum, you have the simple, easy to understand games at one end, and the complex, difficult games at the other, with most of the others in between. Neither is innately 'better' than the other, but one may be better for the kind of game you have in mind.

In this case, other posters have suggested Mutants and Masterminds, which is a very good game, a simple, versatile system particularly for a comic-book style game, but for Final Fantasy, I'd recommend BESM over it, and Anima over BESM for the reasons I gave in previous posts. Anima is worth the extra effort.

Airk
2014-04-23, 09:11 AM
More freedom in a rpg is good for experienced players because it means you can try something different and do more, but bad for new ones, as it can be confusing, and they can easily make mistakes. Think of it as a spectrum, you have the simple, easy to understand games at one end, and the complex, difficult games at the other, with most of the others in between. Neither is innately 'better' than the other, but one may be better for the kind of game you have in mind.

No, you've missed the point.

"Rewards system mastery" is not the same as "punishes people who don't know what they're doing."

Let me reiterate: If a game allows you to create bad characters by making decisions that seem good, that game is badly designed.

That is not the same as: "The game rewards people who know how to make good decisions during character generation."

Also, in no way does EITHER of those correlate to flexibility. You can make extremely flexible systems without huge lists full of traps.



In this case, other posters have suggested Mutants and Masterminds, which is a very good game, a simple, versatile system particularly for a comic-book style game, but for Final Fantasy, I'd recommend BESM over it, and Anima over BESM for the reasons I gave in previous posts. Anima is worth the extra effort.

Honestly, in the list you gave, the only real reason that stands out is "you'll never run into a character that's basically the same as you" and even that's not a particularly remarkable strength these days. Also, to be truthful, lots of your reasons don't seem to jive very well with "for Final Fantasy" - why is it relevant if you can do ridiculous DBZ-like powers? Those aren't really part of the FF milieu.

katarl
2014-04-23, 02:02 PM
No, you've missed the point.

"Rewards system mastery" is not the same as "punishes people who don't know what they're doing."

Let me reiterate: If a game allows you to create bad characters by making decisions that seem good, that game is badly designed.

That is not the same as: "The game rewards people who know how to make good decisions during character generation."

Also, in no way does EITHER of those correlate to flexibility. You can make extremely flexible systems without huge lists full of traps.

Honestly, in the list you gave, the only real reason that stands out is "you'll never run into a character that's basically the same as you" and even that's not a particularly remarkable strength these days. Also, to be truthful, lots of your reasons don't seem to jive very well with "for Final Fantasy" - why is it relevant if you can do ridiculous DBZ-like powers? Those aren't really part of the FF milieu.

I don't think I'll gain anything arguing this, your mind is already made. If you think it's a bad game, then the answer's obvious- don't play it.

However, I'd encourage the OP to try Anima, it has a steep learning curve, which has put the above posters off, but it's worth it. The Ki system I mentioned may not scream FF, but the magic system certainly does (some of the abilities, such as the Great Beast summons, are flat out lifted from FF), and I don't think there are any other systems that cater to the FF crowd as specifically in setting, art-style and mechanical content as Anima does.

Mutants and Masterminds is good, but it's more geared to the comic book crowd, and you'll have to do a lot of work, or find a fan project to play a FF themed game, whereas Anima would play as is, with just a setting change.

Tengu_temp
2014-04-23, 02:44 PM
I played a crapload of anime-style M&M games. Do you know how much change do you need to apply to it to make it fit?

Literally nothing. It already fits perfectly.

Anima is a different kind of system (and one that doesn't appeal to me for various reasons), but BESM is worse in every way I can think of than M&M, unless you absolutely must have a HP and MP system in your game.

CarpeGuitarrem
2014-04-23, 02:52 PM
M&M seems like it'd work just fine, because anime/manga are essentially superhero games, at least on the level that M&M works at. Plus, it has all of that "you can build any character you want" flexibility along with a healthy helping of "rewards system mastery", and it's easy to get into. I think that's the key with a learning curve: it should have a low entry barrier, but reward progressive mastery of the system.

(That said, Tenra Bansho Zero, as mentioned above, is also a rad game that taps into a lot of the same spirit of Anima, but with an easier-to-grasp system and lots of neat and diverse character types.)

katarl
2014-04-23, 03:24 PM
I played a crapload of anime-style M&M games. Do you know how much change do you need to apply to it to make it fit?

Literally nothing. It already fits perfectly.

Anima is a different kind of system (and one that doesn't appeal to me for various reasons), but BESM is worse in every way I can think of than M&M, unless you absolutely must have a HP and MP system in your game.

There's a sourcebook for Mutants and Masterminds (2nd ed) for Anime style games, called Mecha and Manga, so the designers obviously thought you could play anime-themed games with their product, but you will have to come up with rules for all the new content FF has. Depending on the FF number we're talking about here, that could be quite a lot of work (chocobo, moogles, gunblades, magic systems?).

Of course, if you know of a FF fan content site, you could just pinch whatever they made, but quality varies.

The same could really be said of Anima too really though, there's no chocobos in Gaia, so you'd need to do some serious work either way (though I know there is at least one FF conversion for the game).

Lord Raziere
2014-04-23, 05:51 PM
There's a sourcebook for Mutants and Masterminds (2nd ed) for Anime style games, called Mecha and Manga, so the designers obviously thought you could play anime-themed games with their product, but you will have to come up with rules for all the new content FF has. Depending on the FF number we're talking about here, that could be quite a lot of work (chocobo, moogles, gunblades, magic systems?).

Of course, if you know of a FF fan content site, you could just pinch whatever they made, but quality varies.

The same could really be said of Anima too really though, there's no chocobos in Gaia, so you'd need to do some serious work either way (though I know there is at least one FF conversion for the game).

:smallbiggrin: your think we're talking 2e M&M! thats adorable.

*cracks knuckles*

Buster Sword
Strength-Based Damage, Reach 1, Removable, 9 points, rank 10

Gunblade
Removable -1 per 5 points
Damage, 8 points, rank 10
Damage Ranged, 16 points, rank 10

White Magic
Healing, Resurrection, 10 alternate effects, 40 (30) points, rank 10
AE:
1. Protection, Sustained, Affects Others, Ranged, 30 points, rank 10
2. Enhanced Strength, Affects Others, 30 points, rank 10
3. Damage, Area (Cone), Limited to Undead, Multiattack, 30 points, rank 10
4. Nullify (Black Magic), Area, Selective, 30 points, rank 10
5. Healing, Area, 30 points, rank 10
6. Healing, Energizing, 30 points, rank 10
7. Healing, Restorative, 30 points, rank 10
8. Healing, Ranged, 30 points, rank 10
9. Enhanced Stamina, Affects Others, 30 points, rank 10
10. Enhanced Awareness, Affects Others, 30 points, rank 10

Black Magic
(Fireball) Damage, Ranged, Area (Burst), 10 alternate effects, 40 (30) points, rank 10
AE:
1. (Lightning Bolts) Damage, Ranged, Multi-Attack, 30 points, rank 10
2. (Quake) Damage, Area (Burst), 20 points, rank 10
3. (Tornado) Damage, Ranged, Area (Cylinder), 30 points, rank 10
3. (Tidal Wave), Damage, Ranged, Area (Line), 30 points, rank 10
4. Weaken (Strength), Ranged, Area (Burst), 30 points, rank 10
5. Affliction (Sleep) (Fatigued/Exhausted/Asleep), Ranged, Area (Burst), 30 points, rank 10
6. Weaken (Intelligence), Area (Perception, Sight), Selective, 30 points, rank 10
7. Four Empty Slots for whatever other magic you want.
8.
9.
10.

Chocobo:
Medium-Sized Ground Vehicle
Speed: 5
Strength: 4
Toughness: 5
Defense: 0
Point Cost: 9

Moogle Sidekick: (10 point cost)
Flight, Wings, Innate, 6 points, rank 5
Shrinking, Innate, 9 points, rank 4
35/50 Sidekick Points Remaining

You Are A Moogle:
Flight, Wings, Innate, 6 points, rank 5
Shrinking, Innate, 9 points, rank 4

Heal Materia
Healing, Removable, 16 points, rank 10

Fire Materia
Damage, Ranged, Removable, 16 points, rank 10

Airship:
Gargantuan Sized Air Vehicle (3 points)
Speed: 10
Strength: 12
Toughness: 11
Defense:-6
Post Cost: 13

anything I missed? this all took like, mere minutes dude.

Tengu_temp
2014-04-23, 08:13 PM
Since when was I talking about a Final Fantasy games? I'm talking about anime in general.

But due to how M&M works, building pretty much any Final Fantasy character, creature, item, spell or whatever in it is piss-easy. And it has the bonus of not being restricted by classes or pre-made powers, so you can build a fully unique character instead of assembling one from pre-made powers and abilities.

Grinner
2014-04-23, 09:11 PM
Final Fantasy-style games, hmmm....?

I'll just toss this little number (http://www.valentgames.com/console.shtml) out there.

Lord Raziere
2014-04-23, 10:06 PM
Since when was I talking about a Final Fantasy games? I'm talking about anime in general.

But due to how M&M works, building pretty much any Final Fantasy character, creature, item, spell or whatever in it is piss-easy. And it has the bonus of not being restricted by classes or pre-made powers, so you can build a fully unique character instead of assembling one from pre-made powers and abilities.

anime in general you say!?

also easily arranged.

Catgirl
Senses (Ultra Hearing), 1 point, rank 1
Feature (Tail), Innate, 2 points, rank 1

Sunglasses of Kamina
Enhanced Trait (Presence), Removable, 8 points, rank 5
Enhanced Trait (Stamina), Removable, 8 points, rank 5

I Believe In My Nakama!!
Immortality (Weakness: doesn't work if you have no friends), 20 points, rank 10

Mecha.
Large Sized Vehicle (1 point)
Ground Speed: 2 (2 points)
Air Speed: 6 (7 points)
Strength: 8 (4 points)
Toughness: 7
Defense: 1 (3 points)
Powers:
Damage, Ranged, 20 points, rank 10
Damage, Removable, 8 points, rank 10
Total Cost: 1+2+7+4+3+20+8= 45 points

Magical Girl Transformation
- 1 Activation, Removable
Enhanced Strength,15 points, rank 10
Leaping,7 points, rank 10
Speed,7 points, rank 10
Protection,7 points, rank 10
Damage, Ranged, 16 points, rank 10
Total: 62 points

Hadoken/Kamehameha
Damage, Area (Line), 20 points, rank 10

Flurry of Fists
Damage, Multi-Attack, 20 points, rank 10

Flash Step Technique
Teleport, 8 points, rank 4

Really Big Sword
Strength-Based Damage, Reach 1, Removable, 9 points, rank 10

Deadly Finger Poke
Damage, Penetrating 10, 20 points, rank 10

Inner Senses Unleashed
Senses (Danger Sense, Radius) 3 points, rank 2



anything missing?

katarl
2014-04-24, 08:23 AM
I'd check the original post again.

Airk
2014-04-24, 08:51 AM
I don't think I'll gain anything arguing this, your mind is already made. If you think it's a bad game, then the answer's obvious- don't play it.

You're right. I'm not going to play it; That's already decided. But I would like this discussion to usefully inform the OP on the pitfalls of the game. After all, it was his question, not mine.



However, I'd encourage the OP to try Anima, it has a steep learning curve, which has put the above posters off, but it's worth it. The Ki system I mentioned may not scream FF, but the magic system certainly does (some of the abilities, such as the Great Beast summons, are flat out lifted from FF), and I don't think there are any other systems that cater to the FF crowd as specifically in setting, art-style and mechanical content as Anima does.

How about you check out my suggestion and get back to me. :)



Mutants and Masterminds is good, but it's more geared to the comic book crowd, and you'll have to do a lot of work, or find a fan project to play a FF themed game, whereas Anima would play as is, with just a setting change.

Dunno; I'm not familiar with M&M, because I don't generally look at products with caped heroes on the covers, but folks are right - anime is often a superhero game sans capes. I don't think Final Fantasy is any particular exception to this.

Also, why on earth do you think Chocobos and moogles (and gunblades) need special rules? I think that's the root of the issue here - you seem to think there needs to be rules to make this stuff different, when, really, this stuff... isn't very different, mechanically, just fluff-wise.

Dusk Eclipse
2014-04-24, 09:22 AM
re: Gunblades; There are rules for gunblades (and lance-riffles and mace-cannons) in the Dominus Exxet, they are an Ars Magnum, Leo to be specific; I currently have a character who dual wields them.

TheThan
2014-04-24, 01:18 PM
That’s the problem with making a game based off of anime. Anime is not a genre in itself, instead it’s a medium, and as such you can depict any sort of genre with it. Therefore it’s probably impossible to fit everything that could be considered anime into an RPG system. Something will slip through the cracks. For example, Anima: Beyond Fantasy doesn’t cover science fiction at all.

The only way to really cover everything is to go with something that’s intentionally vague such as BESM or even Mutants and masterminds. Which are very open and loose and vague in order to accommodate just about everything. In these games you don’t have the XP328 hyper Beam Cannon, instead you just have a big gun that you call the XP328 Hyper Beam Cannon.

Now I’m not saying that these two games can replicate everything perfectly. Which is why I think people should ook for games that fit into the sort of anime game they want to run. There are a lot of different games out there that fit into most of genres of media that exist. Since we can fit any genre into anime, we shouldn’t be too caught up with rules that “make the game anime” instead, that should be left up to the players and Dm.

Anima: Beyond Fantasy seems to try to replicate some specific anime shows and genre perfectly, which means it may not be a fit for your game.

katarl
2014-04-24, 03:25 PM
That’s the problem with making a game based off of anime. Anime is not a genre in itself, instead it’s a medium, and as such you can depict any sort of genre with it. Therefore it’s probably impossible to fit everything that could be considered anime into an RPG system. Something will slip through the cracks. For example, Anima: Beyond Fantasy doesn’t cover science fiction at all.

The only way to really cover everything is to go with something that’s intentionally vague such as BESM or even Mutants and masterminds. Which are very open and loose and vague in order to accommodate just about everything. In these games you don’t have the XP328 hyper Beam Cannon, instead you just have a big gun that you call the XP328 Hyper Beam Cannon.

Now I’m not saying that these two games can replicate everything perfectly. Which is why I think people should ook for games that fit into the sort of anime game they want to run. There are a lot of different games out there that fit into most of genres of media that exist. Since we can fit any genre into anime, we shouldn’t be too caught up with rules that “make the game anime” instead, that should be left up to the players and Dm.

Anima: Beyond Fantasy seems to try to replicate some specific anime shows and genre perfectly, which means it may not be a fit for your game.

This is perfectly true, I wouldn't fancy running an Evangelion game with it (even with my sci-fi rules), but I think FF is well within Anima's purview, it's one of the things the writers used for inspiration.

Tengu_temp
2014-04-24, 05:21 PM
anime in general you say!?

also easily arranged.

Catgirl
Senses (Ultra Hearing), 1 point, rank 1
Feature (Tail), Innate, 2 points, rank 1

Sunglasses of Kamina
Enhanced Trait (Presence), Removable, 8 points, rank 5
Enhanced Trait (Stamina), Removable, 8 points, rank 5

I Believe In My Nakama!!
Immortality (Weakness: doesn't work if you have no friends), 20 points, rank 10

Mecha.
Large Sized Vehicle (1 point)
Ground Speed: 2 (2 points)
Air Speed: 6 (7 points)
Strength: 8 (4 points)
Toughness: 7
Defense: 1 (3 points)
Powers:
Damage, Ranged, 20 points, rank 10
Damage, Removable, 8 points, rank 10
Total Cost: 1+2+7+4+3+20+8= 45 points

Magical Girl Transformation
- 1 Activation, Removable
Enhanced Strength,15 points, rank 10
Leaping,7 points, rank 10
Speed,7 points, rank 10
Protection,7 points, rank 10
Damage, Ranged, 16 points, rank 10
Total: 62 points

Hadoken/Kamehameha
Damage, Area (Line), 20 points, rank 10

Flurry of Fists
Damage, Multi-Attack, 20 points, rank 10

Flash Step Technique
Teleport, 8 points, rank 4

Really Big Sword
Strength-Based Damage, Reach 1, Removable, 9 points, rank 10

Deadly Finger Poke
Damage, Penetrating 10, 20 points, rank 10

Inner Senses Unleashed
Senses (Danger Sense, Radius) 3 points, rank 2



anything missing?

Building general-use items in M&M like that is missing the point if you ask me. The game is all about building items and powers that are specific to your character, or at least to your setting.

Sidenote: when was the last time you saw an anime with catgirls in it? Western anime fandom is obsessed with them, but in actual shows, catgirls stopped appearing on a routine basis around the nineties and now it's extremely rare to have a show with one. Same with hyperspace mallets.

Yuukale
2014-04-24, 10:09 PM
Guys, I'm about to enter a campaign and I've been reading about how Ki/Magic/Psionic is overpowered and stuff... I'd like to know "exactly what" is overpowered? By the same measure, I've read that Magic sucks (except for almighty Creation path).

Additional question: Is "nemesis" worth it? Would it be nice to have both a weapons-guy or Ki or Psionic or Magic-user + Nemesis ?

Lord Raziere
2014-04-24, 10:10 PM
Building general-use items in M&M like that is missing the point if you ask me. The game is all about building items and powers that are specific to your character, or at least to your setting.

Sidenote: when was the last time you saw an anime with catgirls in it? Western anime fandom is obsessed with them, but in actual shows, catgirls stopped appearing on a routine basis around the nineties and now it's extremely rare to have a show with one. Same with hyperspace mallets.

never! I have never seen a catgirl in an anime that I recall.

but they are still there.

in my heart. :smallsmile:

and while they're often setting-specific, everything has commonalities. they are good blueprints to build off of in case I do want to customize them. its just good sense. I have already made a chassis, a general design if you will, that if I want to come back to later, I can further refine it to a specific situation, and therefore I have already done half the work that I might some day do. its the same way I do my OOTS art, or my character sheets. I make a general blueprint first, then when I feel like it, I can come back to it and just use that to work out the details. its just efficient.

Grinner
2014-04-24, 10:28 PM
never! I have never seen a catgirl in an anime that I recall.

but they are still there.

in my heart. :smallsmile:

I saw one last week. :smallamused::smallbiggrin:

katarl
2014-04-25, 06:41 AM
I saw one last week. :smallamused::smallbiggrin:

Witchcraft Works had Tanpopo, and aired last season, but that's just off the top of my head. I dunno if you count Inugami-san or Acchi Kocchi, but catgirls are still around, just not as obvious as they were before.


Guys, I'm about to enter a campaign and I've been reading about how Ki/Magic/Psionic is overpowered and stuff... I'd like to know "exactly what" is overpowered? By the same measure, I've read that Magic sucks (except for almighty Creation path).

Additional question: Is "nemesis" worth it? Would it be nice to have both a weapons-guy or Ki or Psionic or Magic-user + Nemesis ?

Considering Ki/Magic/Psionics covers most of the core book, it'd might be better to say that combat and secondary skills are underpowered...

Magic does not 'suck', certainly not! Every path is amazing in it's own right (except illusion, sadly), I can tell you the best spells in any path, but you'll need to have a good zeon regeneration to not have to spend weeks in downtime. I recommend a good zeon battery, a high MA, with Superior Zeon Recovery. Arcana Exxet will help you here.

Nemesis is powerful, but expensive. Shutting down enemies Zeon and Ki isn't all that great, but incorporeality and immunity to criticals is fantastic. Don't bother taking both Nemesis and Ki Abilities, focus on one, and remember, you can buy MK on a 1:1 basis, up to 10% of your total DP, and Tai Chi/Velez can pump your MK up.

katarl
2014-04-25, 06:44 AM
re: Gunblades; There are rules for gunblades (and lance-riffles and mace-cannons) in the Dominus Exxet, they are an Ars Magnum, Leo to be specific; I currently have a character who dual wields them.

Oops, totally forgot about that.

Dusk Eclipse
2014-04-25, 09:23 AM
Guys, I'm about to enter a campaign and I've been reading about how Ki/Magic/Psionic is overpowered and stuff... I'd like to know "exactly what" is overpowered? By the same measure, I've read that Magic sucks (except for almighty Creation path).

Additional question: Is "nemesis" worth it? Would it be nice to have both a weapons-guy or Ki or Psionic or Magic-user + Nemesis ?

Ki magic and psionics are all overpowered in their own right, which means they are kind of balanced between each other, baring a severe disparity in system mastery your technician should be upstaged by Wizards or Psions and vice-versa, though there is a stupidly overpowered combo that mentalist wizard (literal translation from Spanish, I don't have the English book so I'm not sure how it is officially translated) can do, which allows to get around 8 or so guaranteed open rolls.

Having said that since Ki is such a versatile and open ended system I believe technicians have the biggest ability to surprise you, since techniques can be so varied

On the other hand Nemesis IS SO MUCH FUN, I had a technician who spent most of his MK in Nemesis abilities and it was a blast, hella expensive though, but it was soooo worth it.

Lord Raziere
2014-04-25, 09:36 AM
....hey I'm curious, how did he play out Nemesis abilities morality-wise? aren't they kind of like, the Dark Side of the Force or something? or was it an evil campaign?

Dusk Eclipse
2014-04-25, 09:43 AM
It isn't necessaries the Dark side of the Ki, it is actually described as an existential void, neither good, neither bad, so my character just thought of it as tools in his proverbial toolbox, having said that my character was an spy, saboteur and a Pirate so he wasn't a paragon of morality either.

Yuukale
2014-04-25, 12:35 PM
I'm building an archer for my first campaign, he's going to be a shadow (but this is changeable) and I'd like to invest in nemesis as well. Do you think I can build an optimum char doing this or I should choose between: either I'm good at archery or good at nemesis ?

CombatOwl
2014-04-25, 06:26 PM
Knowing where to put your development points is part of the learning curve. When you first make your character, it's difficult to know what's 'good' and what isn't. However, having the choice to play a pure skill-jockey without combat in a game is a plus, not a minus.

Useful... until your inability to dodge means you take several telekinetically thrown greatswords to the face. Non-combat characters are fine in games that aren't about combat, but making that seems like a playable option when it really isn't most of the time is just a waste of time.


You may not know that the most you can put into combat is 60% of your points (360pts), so that leaves 40% for skills,

I am well aware of the rules. How much you can actually put in depends greatly on your class. If you're playing a wizard, for example, you will have almost no skills whatsoever because what DP doesn't get eaten up by your magic will go into getting your dodge score high enough to survive. If you're playing a wizard-mentalist, you literally have no DP leftover for either skills or combat (though fortunately you don't really need much out of combat at that point). Even with 40% of your starting DP in skills, unless you focus heavy on a handful of skills, you'll never be good enough at them to use them reliably. The only way out of that trap is to take jack of all trades, which is 2/3 starting CP. It's a pretty hefty investment to be reliably good with skills, to the point where characters who are good at skills usually aren't any good at actually surviving the adventures they're likely to be going on.

katarl
2014-04-26, 05:34 AM
I'm building an archer for my first campaign, he's going to be a shadow (but this is changeable) and I'd like to invest in nemesis as well. Do you think I can build an optimum char doing this or I should choose between: either I'm good at archery or good at nemesis ?

This should be doable, it's the Martial Knowledge that you can't split effectively. Unfortunately, this *does* makes it more difficult to take Ki Control and have some good techniques to boost your ranged attacks up, however your survivability will benefit.

One option I'd recommend is shooting for Agnitum: Absolute Eye, taking a bit of Hide/Stealth and make use of the Nemesis powers that improve your maneuverability, as well as Undetectable, to stack with your shadow class abilities. It means sniping, anywhere in your range, regardless of obstacles, at a bonus, no penalty, and magic/ki can't find you.

Edit- oh, and taking Tai Chi and Velez will give you more Dodge and MK, and doesn't count towards your attack/dodge maximum (just the combat maximum).


Useful... until your inability to dodge means you take several telekinetically thrown greatswords to the face. Non-combat characters are fine in games that aren't about combat, but making that seems like a playable option when it really isn't most of the time is just a waste of time.

The skill/combat balance of the game you're playing depends on your group and dm, not the system. You'll hopefully know that during character creation. A prudent player will cover his bases even if he's told it's a skill-game.


I am well aware of the rules. How much you can actually put in depends greatly on your class. If you're playing a wizard, for example, you will have almost no skills whatsoever because what DP doesn't get eaten up by your magic will go into getting your dodge score high enough to survive. If you're playing a wizard-mentalist, you literally have no DP leftover for either skills or combat (though fortunately you don't really need much out of combat at that point). Even with 40% of your starting DP in skills, unless you focus heavy on a handful of skills, you'll never be good enough at them to use them reliably. The only way out of that trap is to take jack of all trades, which is 2/3 starting CP. It's a pretty hefty investment to be reliably good with skills, to the point where characters who are good at skills usually aren't any good at actually surviving the adventures they're likely to be going on.

Firstly, as an aside, I've never seen someone take lots of dodge as a pure wizard. Most paths come with a shield, which you use with Magic Projection. You can only get a +50 bonus anyway, as Attack and Defense can only be 50 points different. Most players tend to take Perfect Shield, an all-day deterrent, with a few points in dodge as insurance, though I personally prefer to avoid that, simply because it's what most people do, and have a familiar/sheela/incarnation do the actual defending for me.

Second, this was a problem, as many players just dumped secondary skills to play hybrid classes, in contrast to the pre-made characters, that were more balanced, but it's already been mitigated by the reprint.

All classes get another +10 per level to five secondary skills and two natural bonuses, one to a mental, and one to a physical skill, so it won't cost much to get them to a respectable level. If you aren't using skills often enough to justify taking skills with these bonuses, then it's a problem with how the dm is running the game, not the system itself.

Jack-of-all-Trades is very nice, but only really worth it for the skill-jockeys, which I've usually played as being half-combat, half-skills, with the CP spent to make buying skills cheaper, which ends out more efficient than spending all your points in skills.

Remember that the secondary skills get REALLY crazy at levels beyond almost impossible, like swimming up waterfalls and riding a beam of light, so with the right dm, they're not just useful but kinda like magic in their own right, and will completely change the power-dynamic.

And if you do NOT take notice as a skill, then your character will probably soon die, regardless of class, as many very nasty techniques from Dominus will suddenly surprise you.

Yuukale
2014-04-26, 06:16 AM
This should be doable, it's the Martial Knowledge that you can't split effectively. Unfortunately, this *does* makes it more difficult to take Ki Control and have some good techniques to boost your ranged attacks up, however your survivability will benefit.

One option I'd recommend is shooting for Agnitum: Absolute Eye, taking a bit of Hide/Stealth and make use of the Nemesis powers that improve your maneuverability, as well as Undetectable, to stack with your shadow class abilities. It means sniping, anywhere in your range, regardless of obstacles, at a bonus, no penalty, and magic/ki can't find you.

Edit- oh, and taking Tai Chi and Velez will give you more Dodge and MK, and doesn't count towards your attack/dodge maximum (just the combat maximum).


Unfortunately, going tai-chi and velez, although good for my Dodge, it's also bad for my MK, since Nemesis can't replace Ki stuff (http://cipher-studios.com/AnimaBB/index.php?topic=576.msg30341#msg30341) :/

Is "Armor of Emptiness" and "Noht" worth it? and last but not least: how many points should I invest in a secondary skill that I'm good, at creation?

Say, I have +30 in bonuses to hide at 1st level, how many points should I put here? 10? 20? are they enough to beat enemy perception at this stage?

katarl
2014-04-26, 03:01 PM
Unfortunately, going tai-chi and velez, although good for my Dodge, it's also bad for my MK, since Nemesis can't replace Ki stuff (http://cipher-studios.com/AnimaBB/index.php?topic=576.msg30341#msg30341) :/

Is "Armor of Emptiness" and "Noht" worth it? and last but not least: how many points should I invest in a secondary skill that I'm good, at creation?

Say, I have +30 in bonuses to hide at 1st level, how many points should I put here? 10? 20? are they enough to beat enemy perception at this stage?

This is true, though if you wanted to take the Ars Magnus mentioned, you'd need Use of Ki anyway, so the difference would be Presence Extrusion. Doing that would be expensive, but may be worth it for higher levels, as the Ars and Ki Abilities are worth it, even without the Techniques.

For someone who is paying the upfront 70mk to gain access to Nemesis powers, Armour of Nothing and Noht may be more useful to you than the equivalent of buying 50DP worth of dodge, it's more useful against low damage weapons however, and won't save you against two handed axes.

One trick you may consider is combining Noht with the Ki Ability Physical Shield. Physical Shield gives you a Damage Barrier of your Presence, which blocks all damage beneath that number. Noht reduces the base damage of any attack that lands, so at level 1, the enemy would have to use 60 damage weapons or more to hurt you at all, and would reduce the damage by 30 in any case.

A more powerful version of this would be to combine Noht with some other method of Damage Barrier, such as the Blood of the Great Beasts for Damage Barrier 100, which effectively becomes Damage Barrier 130, enough to stop nearly any physical attack.

As to how much Hide you need, I'd recommend at least a final +80, if not more. Level 1 Bandits start at +50 notice, and you'd want to be able to reliably beat basic bandits at the start. It's your most important skill, so don't worry if your other skills aren't as good as a result, but make sure to get at least 5 points in at least 5 secondary skills to take advantage of the bonuses and not take the -30 penalty.

Yuukale
2014-04-26, 03:28 PM
Now, a tricky question: My DM already allowed me to go full Duk'Zarist. Do you think that the +3 levels will hurt me more than all the goodies I get (+1 to all characteristics? whoa!) ?

tbh, my choice for duk'zarist wasn't motivated by powergaming, but from my desire to belong to a "pure" race, instead of being a mix'n'match of human body+ duk soul. After seeing what I get, it got even harder to give up on this idea xD

katarl
2014-04-26, 05:08 PM
Now, a tricky question: My DM already allowed me to go full Duk'Zarist. Do you think that the +3 levels will hurt me more than all the goodies I get (+1 to all characteristics? whoa!) ?

tbh, my choice for duk'zarist wasn't motivated by powergaming, but from my desire to belong to a "pure" race, instead of being a mix'n'match of human body+ duk soul. After seeing what I get, it got even harder to give up on this idea xD

There's no real comparison, a +3 levels cost outweighs any bonuses the race gives you, from a powergaming perspective. Further, you are obligated to take the Gift or Psychic Access, which as a Shadow, you are poorly placed to take advantage of. It's all cost and no real benefit, unfortunately.