OK, maybe i'm retarded but....

[enderrocksonall]

...I really don't see the downside of Monkey Grip.

I haven't read the millions of posts on why everyone hates this feat, but the general idea i get from everyone is this:

The -2 penalty is constant and not turn-offable.
The extra damage is only 2 points per hit.
The weapon weighs a lot.

Thats it? That's the only reasons you guys hate this feat? Also, I'm not sure where the calculation for an extra d6 comes to an average of 2. The whole idea of a d6 is an average of 3, or if you want to get really nitpicky, 3.5.

This is literally from my own experience playing a paladin who was using a large size +1 greataxe. My DM and I misinterpreted the rules on larger weapons and so my character was using it without monkey grip at a -4 but with monkey grip i would have been able to use it at a -2. Is it just me or does a 3d6 weapon that essentially is a -1 on AR seem like a really good trade off.

Think of it this way, if there were a power attack-like feat that gave an extra 1d6 for every point of BAB you subtracted from your roll, you would all jump up and down screaming in pleasure (please no one tell me that feat already exists, I know i haven't read every book out there).

So could you guys please explain your thinking to me. My paladin worked out so well even with the -4 penalty, that i'm thinking about going for large size weapons more often in my character concept.

[Bears With Lasers]

In the best case, Monkey Grip adds 3.5 damage (1d6). This is for a -2 AB penalty.

Using Power Attack with a normal-sized weapon for -2 AB would get you +4 damage. In the best case, Monkey Grip is worse than Power Attack. Yes, you could combine the two... but Power Attacking for your full AB is almost never a good idea, so you shouldn't. Just Power Attack for more.

-2 AB means less damage. When you miss, you do no damage. You will miss more often with Monkey Grip, and thus do less damage. This is also true for Power Attack, but Power Attack isn't on all the time. There are plenty of times when you don't want to use it! Many of the times you DO want to use it, you want to PA for more than 2 points.

Having Monkey Grip and Power Attack is wasting a feat. Not having Power Attack is a bad idea. Power Attack does what Monkey Grip does better, and doesn't hurt you some of the time (i.e. whenever Monkey Grip subtracts more damage than it adds), because you can turn Power Attack off.

[DaMullet]

Last I checked, the feat existed purely for Roleplayers who wanted a mathematically legit way to be Cloud Strife.

[enderrocksonall]

In the best case, Monkey Grip adds 3.5 damage (1d6). This is for a -2 AB penalty.

Using Power Attack with a normal-sized weapon for -2 AB would get you +4 damage.


This is the part i dont get. Doesn't PA give the same amount to damage that you take away in BAB? How are you getting +4 damage?

[DaMullet]

Power Attack grants double damage if you wield it 2-handed.

It's one of it's better-utilized functions by fighters without shields.

[Closet_Skeleton]

This is the part i dont get. Doesn't PA give the same amount to damage that you take away in BAB? How are you getting +4 damage?

In 3.5 Power attack deals double for two-handed weapons.

Seriously, why take out Critical stacking just to replace it with this monstrocity? Why gods why?

[illathid]

You get double power attack damage if the weapon is wielded 2 handed. So with a 2 handed sword (or greataxe, etc.) for -1 you take to your attack bonus, you gain +2 to your damage.

Wow, super ninja'd...

[Arceliar]

From the Power Attack Description...

Power Attack [General]
Prerequisite

Str 13.
Benefit

On your action, before......bonus on damage apply until your next turn.
Special

If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls.....

The frenzied berserker prestige class eventually gets supreme power attack, which is 2:1 for 1-handed weapons and 4:1 for two-handed weapons or a one handed weapon used in two hands.

Like mentioned before, it's essentially just for roleplaying aspects when you really get down to the numbers. At least for a medium sized character it is...

[enderrocksonall]

OK so you're saying that you deal .5 less damage using monkey grip as opposed to using an equivalent AR reducing PA. alright i get it now. I guess PA is better, but I still like MG for flavor and it really isn't THAT horrible. It's just not as good as a different feat.

[Misat]

Holy gods...I never knew that they changed it from 3.0 to 3.5 and I've been playing 3.5 since it came out. Why would they change that? I'm glad I never knew that little clause because it just sounds outrageous.

[Matthew]

You don't get to use it with Light Weapons now, either. Overall, I preferred the 3.0 Power Attack, though it does not import too well into 3.5.

[Piccamo]

If you want to say you're using a really big axe you can. You don't need a feat that says it, too.

[Wolf53226]

If you are using it for flavor reasons, then no, no one on the boards is going to say it's bad. Except maybe to make fun of you being a Cloud wannabe, but most of us would leave you alone. The talk of it being awful is from a best bang for the buck perspective, PA is better damage, Scalable with your BAB, and you can turn it off; all which make it better than monkey grip.

[Bears With Lasers]

OK so you're saying that you deal .5 less damage using monkey grip as opposed to using an equivalent AR reducing PA. alright i get it now. I guess PA is better, but I still like MG for flavor and it really isn't THAT horrible. It's just not as good as a different feat.

The problem isn't just that PA can give you more damage for the same AB penalty.
The problem is that PA can be used for more or less as the situation warrants. There are lots of times you don't want to Power Attack for 2 points; it's only at high levels or against particularily low-AC enemies that you want to be Power Attacking all the time. A lot of the time, Power Attacking for 2 points makes you do less damage overall... and when those times come up, if you have Monkey Grip, you're being worse than you would be without Monkey Grip. It's hurting you, i.e. making you actively worse, in those (frequent) situations.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

The extra damage is only 2 points per hit.
Actually, it's never really more than 1 point of extra damage.


Also, I'm not sure where the calculation for an extra d6 comes to an average of 2.
It's an extra d6 assuming a successful hit.

For a true calculation of average damage per swing (successful or otherwise), you have to account for misses where you do 0 damage as well.

For instance, if you have a +8 to hit and are facing an enemy with 19 AC, you successfully hit the creature on an 11 or above. That's a 50% success rate.

If you are fighting with a Medium greatsword and have an 18 Str, you deal 2d6+6 damage on a successful hit. That averages out to 13 damage, but only 50% of the time.

Now, your average damage total would be the damage you deal on a successful hit times the probability of a success plus the damage you deal on a failed hit (i.e. 0) times the probability of failure. That gives us:

(13 * 50%) + (0 * 50%) = 6.5 average damage per swing.

Now, let's say you were using a Monkey Gripped Large Greatsword instead. Since you take a -2 penalty to your attack roll, your chance of a successful hit is only 40%. However, a successful hit now deals 3d6+6 damage (average 16.5). Plop that into our average damage calculation for...

(15.5 * 40%) + (0 * 60%) = 6.6 average damage per swing.

So, by using Monkey Grip, you've increased your average damage per swing by 0.1.

It's not impressive at all. At least mathematically.

Conceptually—well, that's a matter of taste.

[NullAshton]

By my calculations, there is one area where it shines. One-handed weapons. Only a +2 to damage with power attack, while with a bastard sword you get an average of +3.5 damage. Good for those sword and board fighters with DMs that don't allow the animated shield enhancement(or don't have the money for that). Though a feat that gives you +1.5 to damage is still kind of disappointing.

[krossbow]

Eh, if you want the cloud strife feel, just get a balanced (magic enhancement increasing size) fullblade. it's a feat and a magic thing for 5 extra damage average (2d6 increases to 2d8 for 1 more damage, and then 2d8 to 3d8 for 4 more, average of 5 combined) , but eh, it's pretty cool.

[NullAshton]

Eh, if you want the cloud strife feel, just get a balanced (magic enhancement increasing size) fullblade. it's a feat and a magic thing for 5 extra damage average (2d6 increases to 2d8 for 1 more damage, and then 2d8 to 3d8 for 4 more, average of 5 combined) , but eh, it's pretty cool.

Huge Balanced Fullblade wielded with monkeygrip.:smallbiggrin:

[Yuki Akuma]

Huge Balanced Fullblade wielded with monkeygrip.:smallbiggrin:

I'm pretty sure those don't stack.

[Ebonwoulfe]

Actually, it's never really more than 1 point of extra damage.


It's an extra d6 assuming a successful hit.

For a true calculation of average damage per swing (successful or otherwise), you have to account for misses where you do 0 damage as well.

For instance, if you have a +8 to hit and are facing an enemy with 19 AC, you successfully hit the creature on an 11 or above. That's a 50% success rate.

If you are fighting with a Medium greatsword and have an 18 Str, you deal 2d6+6 damage on a successful hit. That averages out to 13 damage, but only 50% of the time.

Now, your average damage total would be the damage you deal on a successful hit times the probability of a success plus the damage you deal on a failed hit (i.e. 0) times the probability of failure. That gives us:

(13 * 50%) + (0 * 50%) = 6.5 average damage per swing.

Now, let's say you were using a Monkey Gripped Large Greatsword instead. Since you take a -2 penalty to your attack roll, your chance of a successful hit is only 40%. However, a successful hit now deals 3d6+6 damage (average 16.5). Plop that into our average damage calculation for...

(15.5 * 40%) + (0 * 60%) = 6.6 average damage per swing.

So, by using Monkey Grip, you've increased your average damage per swing by 0.1.

It's not impressive at all. At least mathematically.

Conceptually—well, that's a matter of taste.

You forgot the situation where you took a -2 to your to power attack with a regular greatsword. Now you have 2d6+10 that hits 40% of the time. On average, you do 17 damage * 40% = 6.8 damage per swing.

There's the rub - monkey grip is better than no feat, but inferior to power attack.

[Douglas]

No, it's Powerful Build that doesn't stack with Monkey Grip. Monkey Grip and Powerful Build let you use larger weapons. The Balanced property reduces the effective size of the weapon. A Huge Balanced weapon is considered Large with regard to the effort required to wield it, and Monkey Grip would let you wield that "Large" two-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon.

[Piccamo]

What book is Balanced from? I've never heard of it.

[Douglas]

It might have been reprinted somewhere else, but the source I know it from is the Arms and Equipment Guide.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

You forgot the situation where you took a -2 to your to power attack with a regular greatsword. Now you have 2d6+10 that hits 40% of the time. On average, you do 17 damage * 40% = 6.8 damage per swing.
You can tell I don't play fighters.

I still want to say, "0.3 extra damage per swing isn't impressive either."

Of course, then Power Attack really shines when you start out with near automatic hit before applying a penalty and can dump most of your BAB for a huge return with little risk anyway. I just gave this one a 50/50 starting shot, so there's not a whole lot gained compared to what you could potentially do at high levels.

And it's still 3 times the gain from Monkey Grip. :smalltongue:

[enderrocksonall]

Actually, it's never really more than 1 point of extra damage.


It's an extra d6 assuming a successful hit.

For a true calculation of average damage per swing (successful or otherwise), you have to account for misses where you do 0 damage as well.

For instance, if you have a +8 to hit and are facing an enemy with 19 AC, you successfully hit the creature on an 11 or above. That's a 50% success rate.

If you are fighting with a Medium greatsword and have an 18 Str, you deal 2d6+6 damage on a successful hit. That averages out to 13 damage, but only 50% of the time.

Now, your average damage total would be the damage you deal on a successful hit times the probability of a success plus the damage you deal on a failed hit (i.e. 0) times the probability of failure. That gives us:

(13 * 50%) + (0 * 50%) = 6.5 average damage per swing.

Now, let's say you were using a Monkey Gripped Large Greatsword instead. Since you take a -2 penalty to your attack roll, your chance of a successful hit is only 40%. However, a successful hit now deals 3d6+6 damage (average 16.5). Plop that into our average damage calculation for...

(15.5 * 40%) + (0 * 60%) = 6.6 average damage per swing.

So, by using Monkey Grip, you've increased your average damage per swing by 0.1.

It's not impressive at all. At least mathematically.

Conceptually—well, that's a matter of taste.

You're also forgetting to include crits in your math. I critical hit with that axe and dealt 61 damage, only 12 of which was str and magic. I wan't even using charging smite at the time.

[NullAshton]

Power Attack + Deep Impact psionic feat = killer power attack damage with core. Power attack as a touch attack, who wouldn't want that?

[Arceliar]

Power Attack + a Brilliant Energy weapon = Fun, without wasting a feat on it and you get a full attack.

Brilliant energy isn't quite a touch attack, but it's close and you can get a full attack with it.

[Mr Pants]

it is true that monkey grip < power attack, but only for large and smaller weapons. I play a large golem and use 2 huge balanced mauls (effective size: Gargantuan). Monkey grip for a huge weapon would increase its damage by 2 dice. Then again there aren't very many huge races out there.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

You're also forgetting to include crits in your math. I critical hit with that axe and dealt 61 damage, only 12 of which was str and magic. I wan't even using charging smite at the time.
Well, it was meant to be a basic math walk-through. Crits make the calculations a bit more complicated, since you also have to add in the confirmation roll. (Not that I can't do the math. Never would have gotten my damage comparator (http://h1.ripway.com/shhalahr/damageComparatorV2.php) working if I didn't. :smalltongue:)

Probably should have had a disclaimer about the lack of crits.

Actually, I did just plain forget about them. :smallredface:

[Lemur]

I'll admit I haven't seen much of the more recent publications, but from what I know you could use monkey grip to with a sized up spiked chain to get 15 feet of reach and threat area. This is using the weapon size changing from Savage Species, since it's the most detailed source on the subject of changing weapon size I've seen.

[Bears With Lasers]

Larger weapons no longer give you more reach.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Savage Species is 3.0, newer rules take precedence.

That includes the rule where reach weapons only double their wielder's reach rather than adding a specified value. So you cannot gain extra reach simply by wielding a larger weapon.

[Zincorium]

You're also forgetting to include crits in your math. I critical hit with that axe and dealt 61 damage, only 12 of which was str and magic. I wan't even using charging smite at the time.

Uh, you are aware that PA is also multiplied by a critical? 'Cause it is, basically any time you do more damage that isn't a seperate die, you'll also always do more damage on a critical.

For me, the biggest and worst disadvantage of monkey grip as opposed to PA is that power attack has so many thing which can be added to it to make it better: shock trooper, leap attack, combat brute, frenzied berserker, etc. But until epic, there is absolutely no addition you can make to monkey grip to improve it's usability.

[Jack Mann]

The only case in which monkey grip is really worth it is if you are, as I recall, huge or greater. At that point, you can do more damage with monkey grip than with power attack for that -2. You still have an inability to turn the ability off, but at least you're getting some benefit from the feat.

[Mr Pants]

The only case in which monkey grip is really worth it is if you are, as I recall, huge or greater. At that point, you can do more damage with monkey grip than with power attack for that -2. You still have an inability to turn the ability off, but at least you're getting some benefit from the feat.

yep i love my 6d8/attack :biggrin:

[LotharBot]

I hate monkey grip in about 98% of cases. I think most of the people using it are doing so for "munchkin" reasons -- they just want more/bigger damage dice (or better reach with a spiked chain, which, IIRC, it doesn't actually give.) They don't care about it for role-playing reasons. And, as it turns out, it's a crappy feat for a munchkin to take -- it's like a weak version of power attack that you can't even turn off.

If you're playing some kind of huge creature and you have a decent character reason for it, OK, sure, go ahead. But most of the time, it just doesn't make sense.

[Lemur]

Larger weapons no longer give you more reach.

All right. I was wondering if they had changed that. Serves me right for not keeping up to date :smalltongue:

[Mewtarthio]

I hate monkey grip in about 98% of cases. I think most of the people using it are doing so for "munchkin" reasons -- they just want more/bigger damage dice (or better reach with a spiked chain, which, IIRC, it doesn't actually give.) They don't care about it for role-playing reasons. And, as it turns out, it's a crappy feat for a munchkin to take -- it's like a weak version of power attack that you can't even turn off.

Er... How many people take Power Attack for roleplaying reasons? "Yes, my name is Jimaro, last fighter of my clan. Long have I spent my days hitting people really hard. And I mean really, really hard. Now, if only there was some sort of feat which let me hit people harder than normal..."

[jayphonic]

Plus, let us never forget that Cloud Strife's Buster Sword is but a pale imitation of the Dragon Slayer from the Sword of the Berserk Manga that started in 1988. The Dragon Slayer wielded by Guts is much cooler anyway.

[Bears With Lasers]

When I want my character to be a certain way, I roleplay it. The mechanics are separate from that. I don't need to take Weapon Focus just because my character focuses on one weapon, nor do I need to describe Power Attack as Swinging Real Hard.

[Rigeld2]

When I want my character to be a certain way, I roleplay it. The mechanics are separate from that. I don't need to take Weapon Focus just because my character focuses on one weapon, nor do I need to describe Power Attack as Swinging Real Hard.
QFT4TWBBQOMGAOLeleven

[LotharBot]

Er... How many people take Power Attack for roleplaying reasons?

I take it because it makes sense with my character... I like beating on stuff with swords. It makes sense that my big strong fighter should be able to beat on stuff VERY HARD with swords, and later, be able to cut through one guy into the next with my sword. It just fits with what I picture my fighter types doing.

Monkey Grip generally doesn't. "Look at me, I'm a human holding ogre-sized swords. That's totally how I pictured this character from the moment I started!" (OK, granted, sometimes people DO have something like that in mind; that's the 2% that remains.)

[Shhalahr Windrider]

When I want my character to be a certain way, I roleplay it. The mechanics are separate from that.
I'm gonna have a tough time accepting your 6 Charisma, 8 Wisdom character with no ranks in Diplomacy or Sense Motive as a Diplomat, no matter how you play it. In fact, I'd consider you a poor roleplayer if you continued trying to portray him as such despite the natural number of failures on the ensuing in-game mechanical roles, as it doesn't reflect the actual mechanical definition of the character.

The roleplaying and the mechanics are interdependent, not separate.

[Jack Mann]

But that said, it's possible to interpret the mechanics in many different ways. Just as a samurai does not have to belong to the samurai class (either of 'em), you can wield a weapon that's larger than most without needing to use monkey grip. Sure, you're not getting that extra d6 worth of damage, but you're not crippling yourself for what's essentially a roleplaying choice. If you're not asking for any mechanical, concrete benefit for the choice, I don't see why a DM should refuse you.

Similarly, you can easily describe Power Attack as aiming for more precise, vulnerable areas instead of simply hitting harder.