Alchemist with beginners (mostly Fighter)

[Spore]

Greetings playground,

I mention my character first so that you can see how it relates to the group. I'm playing a Oni-Spawn Preservationist Alchemist 2 with a Nodachi and the Maw alternate racial trait. I am pulling a melee build because bombs are limited but I can hit stuff with it. My stats are: 18/14/14/15/12/6 so my character is somewhat socially inept and stays his downtime researching new formulae and brewing potions.

My fellow players are completely new to PF and D&D. Our group composition is the following:
Dwarf fighter, Sword & Board: The problem ATM is not that he doesn't do enough damage but he has no way to reach the enemies before I kill them. Superior AC, very slow. I am thinking about battling around him providing him with flanks.
Half-Elf ranger, Archery: He is actually pulling quite nicely, having the best range and on par damage with me. He has skill points allocated nicely and is prepping for her animal companion.
Protean Sorcerer: He is also getting along well but the spell selection could need some mid/long range spells as color spray is rewarding but dangerous non-theless. When we're not about dealing damage, he pulls ahead with "downed" enemies for sure.
Human Holy Gun: The only player experienced enough to play very smartly and he can even downplay himself.

My problem here is: Most stuff is dead when our Dwarf enters the fray. I am fearing my DM will introduce a big monster which complements the high AC of the fighter. Right now I am charging in and killing stuff (side effect, getting almost killed myself). I have the Infusion discovery already as I wanted to get some milage out of my extracts without using up my actions and spicing up our group's combat with free usables.

My questions:
1) Which infusions to give to the fighter?
2) Which infusions are like GOLD for other classes?
3) Should I rebuild more towards bombs? (keep in mind changing the Tiefling subtype is quite hard to convince my DM now).
4) How can I enter social play without falling out of the role? He is an uncharismatic book worm and quick to anger.
5) Seeing how badly fighters end up, should we advise him to multiclass?

I feel like the general debuffing, skill utility, after-combat healing, and damage is pretty much dealt with. I can do anything and nothing so I figured I go damage since this is always needed (Note, that I will get Feral Mutagen by 4 but improving a feature available 1/day right now seems kinda stupid).

Too long, didn't read:
My Alchemist feels like a damage dealer and is quicker than the fighter killing all his monsters. How should I react?

[deuxhero]

Yeah, he choose what is probobly the worst fighting style for an inexperienced player (Not great for an experienced player, but you can pull some things like Shield Master removing ALL penalties), while the ranger has one that is hard to screw up (Not very many bad archery feats in PF. Plenty of bad "pick a weapon" feats you can take with a bow, but the archery feats are overall fairly solid)

I think giving him extracts would compound his current issues, as instead of charging/double moving, he will drink and single move. Ask the GM to throw him a magic item that boosts his speed. They can come fairly cheep (Boots of Striding and Springing without the acrobatics bonus should only be worth 1750 GP I think).

As for multiclass, it's hard to know without his feat choice if he is salvageable without retraining. Power Attack, Step Up and Steel Soul would be much easier to fix than Shield Focus, Weapon Focus (longsword) and Combat Expertise.

Out of curiosity, how'd you get Nodachi proficiency? Feat? Heirloom weapon?

[Sayt]

What level are you guys at? It's relevant to spell/infusion selection and retraining costs.

And what is the dwarf's problem specifically? Is that by the time it's come to his initiative step, everything is dead, or is that he takes forever to get to where people are fighting? The first he can remedy with Imperoved Initiative, the second you can ameliorate with infusions like Expeditious retreat.

Furthermore, Defensive fighters should always be at the top of the marching order. If you're moving into enemy territory, most of the time, most enemies are going to be appearing in front of you.

And on the subject of Sword and Board, what variety of sword and board is he playing? Is it the "I am going to swing my sword while holding a shield", or "I am going to introduce my Spiked Bashing Heavy Sheild to your face and my shortsword to your guts" variety? The first should be relatively trivial to get out of, with fighter feats being swappeable every fourth level, and I'd suggest him towards a two handed sword.

On the other hand, if they plan to use their shield offensively and defensively, it might just be that he's got a build with a slow burn and it's not quite operation yet.

Against melee monsters which aren't obviously specialised for charging (Rhioceroses, large cats, etc), consider not charging in, and total defensing and letting them charge. Especially once your fighter friend hits +6 Bab, he should be happier, as they'll get more attacks than if he'd charged.

Also, at mid levels, point the sorcerer towards the spell Telekinetic charge, as it lets the fighter charge out of his turn and still get to make his beatings on his.

Fighter's still aren't wizards in Pathfinder, but they're better than they were, and can be quite competent at breaking heads with the right help accessing their enemies.


As for re-speccing to bombs... I wouldn't, to be honest. THey do some pretty nice damage, but it's very nova, and encourages the ten minute adventuring day. Like, with the fast bombs discovery, TWF and rapid shot, you can empty your bombs per day in two rounds or so, and while they might do some nice damage, I'd focus on other forms of combat.

As for social stuff, the Student of Philosophy trait lets you substitute intelligence for charisma for bluff checks to make people believe something, and you can pick it and something else with the Additional Traits.

And I'd talk to your party as a whole about composition and what they envisage themselves doing, and what you each feel the party might be lacking. You've got Arcane support, Damage, Damage/Skills and Damage/Tank, so it almost feels like you're a little heavy on the pure damage side, and could do with another support character.

[Spore]

I think giving him extracts would compound his current issues, as instead of charging/double moving, he will drink and single move. Ask the GM to throw him a magic item that boosts his speed. They can come fairly cheep (Boots of Striding and Springing without the acrobatics bonus should only be worth 1750 GP I think).)

We talked and he wants to give him the Boots already. I will give him a hint with the "partial boots".


As for multiclass, it's hard to know without his feat choice if he is salvageable without retraining. Power Attack, Step Up and Steel Soul would be much easier to fix than Shield Focus, Weapon Focus (longsword) and Combat Expertise.

As far as I know the setup, Weapon Focus and Power Attackhave been picked. I don't know about the 2. level choice.


Out of curiosity, how'd you get Nodachi proficiency? Feat? Heirloom weapon?
Errat'd Heirloom weapon gives you proficiency with one weapon (but no longer gives any other advantages or buys you a MW weapon). You can choose between +2 on a combat maneuver, proficiency and +1 for crit confirmation.

They wanted to remove the risk of loosing the weapon = loosing a trait and cutting its power down a notch.

@ Sayt

We're Lv 2 and the Dwarf has BOTH problems. We had a surprise round followed by his initiative being 3. He didn't even reach anything in time. We are not playing for long but this looks like it could become a pattern. He plays the "I hold a Shield to not get killed" style. But honestly I like it the way it is. He should just be the first thing the enemy sees.


And I'd talk to your party as a whole about composition and what they envisage themselves doing, and what you each feel the party might be lacking. You've got Arcane support, Damage, Damage/Skills and Damage/Tank, so it almost feels like you're a little heavy on the pure damage side, and could do with another support character.

That's what I am feeling but I didn't want it to be the 4th group where I play the somewhat divine guy defending everyone's lives. We have a quite strict city setting or otherwise I would've introduced a blasting druid (to kind of diminish the power gap between me and the group).

[jaydubs]

This is more advice for your DM, but:

Crank up the difficulty. I've had one campaign where "everything is dead before I get there" was a problem for any player, and it was because the combats were way too easy. We were literally scrambling over each other to get to enemies, because none of the fights were real threats. As you've mentioned, this might cause problems for your character. But, your character could always just decline to charge ahead during the more difficult fights.

Start combat closer, so that the dwarf reaches combat in the first or second round. Now, don't always do that, because it's annoying for archers. But you should occasionally have to fight indoors.

Add more enemies. They don't have to be powerful, but extra mooks can draw out battles so the dwarf can make it to the front lines.

Add (possibly custom) enemies with more hitpoints. Creatures that aren't offensively more dangerous than what you're used to facing, but have double or triple those hitpoints.

I'd advise mixing and matching from the above, to keep things interesting.

[Spore]

I think he intentionally began easy because it's the first D&D for most. And technically we're in "training camp" so no hard encounters are expected.

[Sayt]

I agree with jaydubs, to a certain degree. The fact that the combats are over before he gets in means either combats are too far away, or to fragile. A dwarf in any sort of armour can full move/charge 40' or run 60', which should be enough to to get you into melee on most fights, I'd hope.

And honestly? I'd point him towards a shield bashing build. Eventually, 2 ac just isn't worth the damage loss from having a shield. I'd actually point him towards the shield style Ranger, maybe Urban, which gains early access to all kinds of goodies for Shield fighting, and lets your dwarf friend get around possible attribute array snafus. He'll have to give up the full plate, but that's deal-able with, especially with a shield.

[Aergoth]

My problem here is: Most stuff is dead when our Dwarf enters the fray. I am fearing my DM will introduce a big monster which complements the high AC of the fighter. Right now I am charging in and killing stuff (side effect, getting almost killed myself). I have the Infusion discovery already as I wanted to get some milage out of my extracts without using up my actions and spicing up our group's combat with free usables.

My questions:
1) Which infusions to give to the fighter?

This question is probably also answered by #2 but there's a couple specifically that your fighter could do with for a massive, "alpha-strike" style charge. True strike is great since you guys haven't hit itteratives yet. Expeditious retreat could be used to catapult him into combat, and enlarge person sees a lot of use on my group's fighter to fairly devastating effect(two-handed, granted but the damage step and strength increase are pretty nifty).



2) Which infusions are like GOLD for other classes?

Some of these you won't have yet but a solid opportunity for later levels when you get there. As far as first level, your holy gun and archer could benefit from longshot. CLW is always something you're going to want to have to hand since your group doesn't have a lot in the way of healing. Shield and shock shield work well for your ranged classes as well and I'd even recommend it for the dwarf since it applies against incorporeal stuff.
For anything with an intent to do something other than spellcasting, haste is pretty damn good and has started to see a lot of use in our group, especially by our own archer-spec'd ranger. Any of the X's Y stat buffs, bull's strength and the like are great to have on hand. Blur, Invisibility, also pretty nifty.



3) Should I rebuild more towards bombs? (keep in mind changing the Tiefling subtype is quite hard to convince my DM now).

Alchemists are funny like this. You can aim towards specializing in bombs without rebuilding the entire character. One of the things you're going to want to do is use your discoveries to diversify the damge of your bombs. Dispel bombs are very nifty, and shifting to shock or frost bombs will give you options in case you wind up fighting one of the many creatures with fire resistance or immunity. The extracts/infusions on the alchemist's formulae list labelled "Admixture"? Those apply to your bombs and some of them are pretty damn cool.

You could also go all out with things like mutagens and be a combat monster, not something I'd advise at the moment given your misgivings regarding the fighter. You could specialize in other alchemical items at this level as well. If you can get access to a way to cast alchemical tinkering you'd be ahead by buying alchemist's fire and converting it to smokesticks and tanglefoot bags. Alchemical allocation (disgusting though the description is) is also going to be a good way to get mileage out of potions. Maybe focus a little more on delivering infusions to assist the rest of the party. The familiar discovery is great for this since it can deliver infusions via touch.



4) How can I enter social play without falling out of the role? He is an uncharismatic book worm and quick to anger.

Intimidate is the skill for you, I think. As far as entering social play, you're an INT based character to some extent, you get knowledge skills that (depending on your DM) you could leverage in social play. You're probably not going to be the party face at any point, but running good-cop, bad-cop with the paladin should be well within your limits.



5) Seeing how badly fighters end up, should we advise him to multiclass?

Fighters honestly aren't that badly off in pathfinder. No one shines perfectly at first level. Depending on the kind of stats the character has, maybe advise him into a two-handed heavy armor build and watch him turn into a wrecking ball. Feats like vital strike are pretty nifty for increasing his damage and if something can increase his speed he'll probably do pretty well.

I feel like the general debuffing, skill utility, after-combat healing, and damage is pretty much dealt with. I can do anything and nothing so I figured I go damage since this is always needed (Note, that I will get Feral Mutagen by 4 but improving a feature available 1/day right now seems kinda stupid).


Too long, didn't read:
My Alchemist feels like a damage dealer and is quicker than the fighter killing all his monsters. How should I react?
You're in the early levels of play. When monsters start to have more hitpoints than you can deal damage with bombs, the fighter is going to have a better chance to shine and will enjoy the opportunity for flanking assistances you can provide. Focus on keeping your party members on their feet and in the game if you'd like, they'll appreciate the assistance if they have any sense.

[Sayt]

Aergoth, I...just... Words do not describe how bad a feat Vital strike is. I'd pick up Greater Weapon Specialisation before I picked up Vital strike. At least that's applicable whenever I swing my weapon of choice. In a choice between making a Vital strike and making a full attack, a full attack should always, always be a fighter's choice.

[Barstro]

He plays the "I hold a Shield to not get killed" style. But honestly I like it the way it is. He should just be the first thing the enemy sees.

I'm not well versed in any of this, but is there any sort of weapon or stance that would allow for this without the boring "stand your ground" part? More of an offensive defense?

Houserule a shield that produces vulgar imaged to whomever looks upon it. Then, even if he rolls a low initiative, the enemies will want to attack him first.

Otherwise, I'd say use bombs for battlefield control, but it sounds like you consider that to be a boring play style.

[Spore]

Kind of update now: I offered the Dwarf Fighter an extract of Expeditious Retreat. After no-so-politely declining the speed potion and then running around a large room chasing fleeing people through the room he obliged and suddenly he really really wants my supporting concoctions. I stayed with my melee build now and changed a bit of feats and discoveries up and pushed Infusion back for Feral Mutagen.

We're third level now and I think the group will go along just nicely. We're still vastly behind WBL (3rd level, about 400 GP and a masterwork weapon to our names) and the sorcerer is kind of frustated with his narrow spell selection and overwhelmed with picking spells.

Any tips again? My ideas are: Giving the sorcerer some non-magical explosives to toss around, the dwarf gets potions of expeditious retreat. Ranger and Holy Gun are pulling just fine but I still worry about my parts in social play (as with standard craft rolls my characters is likely to be the whole day in his lab - THIS TAKES AGES).

[jaydubs]

Wealth: Ask your DM if he is trying to keep wealth low, or if he's just letting it play out depending on what the players do. If it's the latter, you can actively go about looking for paying work.

Sorcerer: Refer him to one of the many spell choice guides out there, rather than picking out of the entire list if he's not experienced picking spells. For instance (https://docs.google.com/document/d/17S3pYy0wk8uUTJ3RFaIDk5vz29WYmOXuhWiOKHO2E_M/edit?pli=1).

Alchemist and social situations: Alchemical items aren't really essential for the alchemist class, as odd as that sounds. Think of it as something to sink your extra hours into, rather than a priority. When you're setting up camp, before bed, during breaks, etc. your character pulls out his portable lab and does a little work. When anything interesting is going on, he puts it aside.

It's definitely not worth missing out on huge swaths of game sessions for an extra alchemist's fire.