"rogue is tier 0"

[Seppo87]

I had this argument with a guy. His reasoning was the following:
-A rogue can use scrolls, therefore he's got full access to tier1 potential. If a wizard can do it, a Rogue can as well.
-Rogues by default get more HPs, more BaB and more weapon damage than wizards, insane skill points, and passive features that grant survivability, therefore, assuming equal buffs, the Rogue will outperform the Wizard in every area
-Hide + easyly available ways to prevent divination = you can sneak and kill every mage in the universe
-Gold is not a problem for a class that's specialized in acquiring money

He also said this definitely applied to core, while he admitted that "all sources" might give different results because of "developer mistakes".

What do you think of it? Why is UMD not considered part of a class potential? Is really the rogue just as good as a core mage with spells, "potentially"?
Is it true, basically, that "if the wizard can, a rogue can as well, better" ?
What about a Factotum?

[eggynack]

-Gold is not a problem for a class that's specialized in acquiring money

This thing right here is the issue. Rogues don't really get much in the way of class features that let them acquire money in a particularly efficient way, and covering the entirety of the game is wealth by level. Using wands and scrolls costs money, and it costs a lot of money. Casters can do for free what you're spending your entire character on, and you can't reach anywhere near the same level of proficiency at magic. You also face the intrinsic limitation of wands, that they only go up to level 4, and the intrinsic limitation of scrolls, that they're even more expensive than wands. You're also usually running a lower caster level on your "spells", though that's of low relevance. The fact that you can't really make your own items is additionally problematic.

Anyway, that's the basic issue. UMD isn't magic, and it can never really be magic. If a wizard can do it, then yes, a rogue can technically do it as well, but a wizard can do it, and a second thing, and a third thing, and still be raring to go the next day, while a rogue cannot. Artificers do this shtick at actual tier 1 competency, and warlocks are alright at it, though only at high level. Gold is always a problem, is the thing, and it's often the biggest problem.

[Thanatosia]

The Rogue may have the ability to use scrolls, but he can't create them. If he wants to cast Timestop, he has to find a wizard or sorceror to make the scroll for him. Even if the money isn't an issue (it usually is), the dependance on another to access his 'full power' certainly is.

Another issue is that AFAIK, Scrolls cannot be used as a swift action, wich means rogues have no quickened spells, or Celerity.

[Spore]

-Gold is not a problem for a class that's specialized in acquiring money

No problem != infinite money.

Seriously. I know how to play a seriously good UMDing rogue pushing it far into T3. But if you need scrolls for EVERYTHING you are pretty poor pretty quickly. Also spending an entire session's worth to get to pay for ONE scroll while the wizard just prepares his 30+ spell slots seems to make that argument foolish.

[Vrock_Summoner]

A wizard can make gold better than a Rogue ever could. UMD doesn't cover the possibly biggest strength high-op casters have in the form of Contingent Celerity. Another problem is that Rogues UMDing scrolls and stuff can't utilize metamagic as far as I'm aware, which is huge for all the T1s except Artificer. And even if Rogues WERE by some miracle better at getting money than T1 casters (they're not; casters are king, especially since some of them can quite literally Genesis an entire demiplane of gold into existence) the fact that every spell you cast costs money AND relies entirely on having somebody else make magic items for you means Rogues have many native disadvantages compared to full casters.

Edit: Swordsage'd.

[ryu]

I had this argument with a guy. His reasoning was the following:
-A rogue can use scrolls, therefore he's got full access to tier1 potential. If a wizard can do it, a Rogue can as well.
-Rogues by default get more HPs, more BaB and more weapon damage than wizards, insane skill points, and passive features that grant survivability, therefore, assuming equal buffs, the Rogue will outperform the Wizard in every area
-Hide + easyly available ways to prevent divination = you can sneak and kill every mage in the universe
-Gold is not a problem for a class that's specialized in acquiring money

He also said this definitely applied to core, while he admitted that "all sources" might give different results because of "developer mistakes".

What do you think of it? Why is UMD not considered part of a class potential? Is really the rogue just as good as a core mage with spells, "potentially"?
Is it true, basically, that "if the wizard can, a rogue can as well, better" ?
What about a Factotum?

A rogue can buy spells and comes with a slighly better combat chassis. A wizard can buy spells and comes with more spells, available sooner, at higher CL, and with natural access to spellcasting and crafting related feats. This is before we even bring prestige classes and magic bonus feats the rogue can't have, not to mention the various wizard ACFs. Now tell me which of these things looks like a more credible type of class to succeed at world domination?

[Lord Raziere]

Now tell me which of these things looks like a more credible type of class to succeed at world domination?

wizard, until you realize that all of the so-called "wizards" in the real world have made weapons that can destroy cities, but it is the guys with all the charisma and under-handedness still running the show....

[icefractal]

Technically, at the highest level of optimization, he's kind of correct. Because a Rogue can use a Scroll of Shapechange, thus achieving the same level of power as a Wizard (that power being "all of it").

But in terms of practical optimization you'd actually use in a campaign, actual casters have the edge, even in an "infinite money, unlimited shopping" environment. Reasons:
1) Better DCs than scrolls, essential for SoD effects.
2) Ability to use metamagic and PrC abilities to boost their spells.
3) Better action economy. In core, scrolls take an action to retrieve. Outside of core, there's stuff like Arcane Spellsurge.

Also, most campaigns are not actually "infinite money", and even with decidedly above average wealth, casting the half-dozen or more buffs a caster tosses on every morning gets expensive when you use scrolls.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

-A rogue can use scrolls, therefore he's got full access to tier1 potential. If a wizard can do it, a Rogue can as well.
-Rogues by default get more HPs, more BaB and more weapon damage than wizards, insane skill points, and passive features that grant survivability, therefore, assuming equal buffs, the Rogue will outperform the Wizard in every area
-Hide + easyly available ways to prevent divination = you can sneak and kill every mage in the universe
-Gold is not a problem for a class that's specialized in acquiring money

A magic item (scroll) takes one day per 1,000 gp of its base price to create, with a minimum of one day. A 7th level Wizard gets ten base spells/day not counting cantrips, specialization, or bonus spells for a high Int score. That means there needs to be a minimum of ten spellcasters who are devoted entirely to making scrolls so just one Rogue can compete with spellcasters. That's ten 7th level Wizards each creating a scroll every day for one 7th level Rogue who wants to pretend he's a Wizard. Also keep in mind that those Wizards cannot sustainably provide for that Rogue, as they're spending XP on each scroll and will have to go adventuring every so often just to replenish it. Then consider what might happen if every Rogue in the setting is played how he thinks they should be played, they would be assassinating each other constantly just to reduce the overwhelming demand for the severely limited supply of scrolls.

All of the Rogue's advantages can be replaced: d6 vs d4 is an average of 1 hp/level, replaced by Improved Toughness. Ring of Evasion replaces Evasion. Skill points are irrelevant as most of what Tier 1 characters accomplish is done without even rolling any type of check. You need cover or concealment to hide and magical senses that thwart this make hide checks impossible, i.e. they automatically see the rogue and he fails to sneak attack them.

The point about gold is not even valid. Tell him to try doing this in an actual game and see how it works out, until then he can keep his armchair D&D to himself.

[eggynack]

wizard, until you realize that all of the so-called "wizards" in the real world have made weapons that can destroy cities, but it is the guys with all the charisma and under-handedness still running the show....
Perhaps, but then you recognize that wizards are the crazy weapon wielders, and also the charismatic underhanded guy, all in one. I mean, you didn't think for a second that that guy with the awesome suit and enough connections to destroy someone in an instant wasn't an ice assassin or mind rape victim, did you?

[Seppo87]

This is not about being a wizard everyday all day, which is of course excessively expensive, but only when needed.
The question is - is there something a Rogue can't do, provided he's got preparation time?
If there's nothing he can't potentially do, while being also proficient at fighting and skills, why isn't his potential regarded as a tier1 -or better-?
I'm asking because I couldn't answer this.

(he also kept insisting that we should play a game together and then he'd show me how easy it would be to kill or disable my wizard or his book. whatever.)

[Vrock_Summoner]

This is not about being a wizard everyday all day, which is of course excessively expensive, but only when needed.
The question is - is there something a Rogue can't do, provided he's got preparation time?

(he also kept insisting that we should play a game together and then he'd show me how easy it would be to kill or disable my wizard. whatever.)

Two characters fighting each other proves approximately nothing except that one build (not even overall class, just build) can defeat another in the right circumstances. It says nothing of what matters, namely what challenges those characters can overcome in a practical environment.

What you say about them being able to do everything given preparation is absolutely true. The better question is, how is that any different from all the other T1's? (Uh, except StP Erudite. He does everything whether or not he has preparation time. But the other ones.)

[ryu]

This is not about being a wizard everyday all day, which is of course excessively expensive, but only when needed.
The question is - is there something a Rogue can't do, provided he's got preparation time?
If there's nothing he can't potentially do, while being also proficient at fighting and skills, why isn't his potential regarded as a tier1 -or better-?
I'm asking because I couldn't answer this.

(he also kept insisting that we should play a game together and then he'd show me how easy it would be to kill or disable my wizard or his book. whatever.)

Ah yes but how much preparation time? A wizard who is legitimately trying to be powerful rather just competent can solve the vast majority of problems in literally the span of a single thought. What can't be solved in that time should still be doable in a single round or something is very wrong. How much preparation does the rogue need again?

[eggynack]

This is not about being a wizard everyday all day, which is of course excessively expensive, but only when needed.
The question is - is there something a Rogue can't do, provided he's got preparation time?
If there's nothing he can't potentially do, while being also proficient at fighting and skills, why isn't his potential regarded as a tier1 -or better-?
I'm asking because I couldn't answer this.

(he also kept insisting that we should play a game together and then he'd show me how easy it would be to kill or disable my wizard or his book. whatever.)
Tier isn't determined by what you're able to do once, and never again. In fact, I can name exactly a thing that a rogue can't do with sufficient preparation time. In particular, let's assume some challenge that requires all of a rogue's wealth to defeat, and then assume a second identical challenge the next day. A wizard would have little difficulty defeating this compound challenge, while a rogue would fail horribly. The issue at hand is your friend's definition of tier, because it is mistaken. Tier is meant to measure actual power in actual play, so if your character acts at an effective tier 1 for a day, before collapsing to tier 5 because they're now a cashless rogue, then you're not looking at a wizard level character.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Gold costs aside, casting spells from items usually has minimum CL and DC. CL can be raised with gold, DC can be raised with Enhance Item but you need to craft it yourself (which the rogue can't do).

The rogues abilities don't provide all that much survivability. Reflex saves are generally the weakest and any competent caster won't bother with them against a rogue anyway.
The difference in hit dice is minimal once you factor in HP from Con.
Skill points aren't much of an argument either. There's PrCs like Unseen Seer for that, so you can be both a wizard and a rogue at once.
Hide & MS + Darkstalker is pretty effective. It won't get you through a prepared wizards defenses though. It's also not exclusive to rogues.

Also, assuming equal buffs means that any money the rogue spent on scrolls, wands, etc. is also available to the wizard, who can spend it on survivability, more spells, minions like golems, zombies and hirelings and whatever else he feels like. Because he gets his spells for free.

When it comes down to PvP the wizard will win, simply because his higher CL dispels the rogues buffs while protecting him from the rogue dispelling his.

[Madhava]

Measuring a class's ability based on items that it could potentially have, is kind of like saying that Monk is tier 0, because a Monk could obtain [powerful-artifact-X], & make use of it for the evulz.

And by your friend's logic, any class could take the skill knowledge feat from UA, or a level of Human Paragon for adaptive learning, & effectively become 'tier 0' by maxing UMD also, no? A charisma-based class, or any class with better HP & saves than Rogue, would probably make for a better chassis.

[Sith_Happens]

All I'm going to say is, someone infamously made the exact same argument about Monks a number of years back.

[emeraldstreak]

In particular, let's assume some challenge that requires all of a rogue's wealth to defeat, and then assume a second identical challenge the next day. A wizard would have little difficulty defeating this compound challenge, while a rogue would fail horribly.

The rogue would gain the treasure for the first encounter. The reality of encounter treasure vs consumable costs is that it's easy to abuse UMD and still make profit.

That being said, I don't see how this makes the rogue "better" than the wizard. The rogue's losses in gold over an entire adventuring career (even if under the treasure gains) are far higher than the gold a wizard would need to spend to match the rogue's meager advantages in hit die and skill points.

Per usual, UMD remains one of the most important non-spellcaster gateways to some true power, but it doesn't make the rogue equal to the wizard.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

This is not about being a wizard everyday all day, which is of course excessively expensive, but only when needed.
The question is - is there something a Rogue can't do, provided he's got preparation time?
If there's nothing he can't potentially do, while being also proficient at fighting and skills, why isn't his potential regarded as a tier1 -or better-?
I'm asking because I couldn't answer this.

(he also kept insisting that we should play a game together and then he'd show me how easy it would be to kill or disable my wizard or his book. whatever.)

Characters fighting against each other is completely irrelevant, the tier system is meant to represent how effectively characters can overcome challenges, not each other. You can't counterspell with scrolls, have their party go up against a BBEG Lich and its hoard of undead. Or have them track and chase a Gith pirate across the planes, with all manner of extraplanar opponents ambushing them along the way. Or just have a few Ethereal Filchers sniff out this Rogue's stash of scrolls, but they won't even consider taking the Wizard's spellbook because it's not magical.

[Vrock_Summoner]

Or just have a few Ethereal Filchers sniff out this Rogue's stash of scrolls, but they won't even consider taking the Wizard's spellbook because it's not magical.

I agree with the rest of your post, but even in very low-op games, most wizards have at least a few magical protections on their spellbooks at all times. Of course, when the optimization level is cranked back up, the wizard's book becomes far beyond the EF's capabilities to steal, but it will still probably try.

[ryu]

I agree with the rest of your post, but even in very low-op games, most wizards have at least a few magical protections on their spellbooks at all times. Of course, when the optimization level is cranked back up, the wizard's book becomes far beyond the EF's capabilities to steal, but it will still probably try.

Multiple completely redundant spellbooks hidden inside the walls, and I do mean the WALLS of various personally made and heavily trapped castles on personal demiplanes, and various places even on the prime, Naturally the ''treasure rooms'' each have an otherwise perfectly mundane book enchanted to the gills to be virtually undetectable, indestructible, and will not open barring obscene force or password. Also there's a copy shrunken down to below fine and animate objected swimming around in the wizards bloodstream. All books are up to date completely and utterly.

[Eldariel]

Magic tends to be by far the most efficient means of creating valuable things too. So no matter how much Rogue sneaks and steals, a spellcaster can generate more gold simply by making permanent Walls, conjuring creatures that can provide whatever services and indeed, selling spellcasting services (if your level 17 Wizard sells spellcasting services to mooks at the market price and gets to spend even half of his daily spell allotment, he'll be very rich).

[Vrock_Summoner]

Multiple completely redundant spellbooks hidden inside the walls, and I do mean the WALLS of various personally made and heavily trapped castles on personal demiplanes, and various places even on the prime, Naturally the ''treasure rooms'' each have an otherwise perfectly mundane book enchanted to the gills to be virtually undetectable, indestructible, and will not open barring obscene force or password. Also there's a copy shrunken down to below fine and animate objected swimming around in the wizards bloodstream. All books are up to date completely and utterly.

I already mentioned the books being far beyond the EF's capabilities to steal when the optimization was cranked back up, what more do you want? :smalltongue:

Though as far as this board is concerned, that hardly even qualifies as optimized protection.

[eggynack]

The rogue would gain the treasure for the first encounter. The reality of encounter treasure vs consumable costs is that it's easy to abuse UMD and still make profit.

They could recoup some of the losses, certainly, but I'm pretty doubtful that they'd be able to pick up enough cash to remain at parity. We're talking about a character that's basically nova'ing through all their cash, every encounter of the day, facing challenges both massive and difficult. We're talking, ultimately, about a rogue attempting to emulate a wizard, all the time, forever. It's not going to last, and there's certainly not going to be a profit, if we assume this level of consumable use.

[Lord Raziere]

Perhaps, but then you recognize that wizards are the crazy weapon wielders, and also the charismatic underhanded guy, all in one. I mean, you didn't think for a second that that guy with the awesome suit and enough connections to destroy someone in an instant wasn't an ice assassin or mind rape victim, did you?

impossible, wizards need a high intelligence score, not a charisma score, and therefore won't invest that at character creation. any wizard obsessed enough to go through all this probably isn't the most social of people and would actually degrade his charisma as he spends all his time either studying or fighting monsters, as well as his wisdom. the rogue however will just wait until the wizard is too obsessed over his spells, then trick him into a death trap before he gets too powerful while selling him "totally legit" spells that are actually forgeries, as well as replacing his spellbook with a good forgery.

your talking about an ivory tower academic trying to take over the world, book smart =/= street smart, or social smart, or anything like that. Einsteins are not world-conquerors, or they're horribly bad ones.

[Kurald Galain]

And an argument that hasn't been mentioned yet,

At lower levels, as in the levels many campaigns actually play at, the rogue can't reliably activate wands yet.

A level-5 rogue has an UMD of +8 (skill ranks), +3 (charisma), +2 (if you want to spend one of your two feats on it) and +2 (MW item, which is not guaranteed to exist). Grand total of +15 at a considerable investment. Using a wand is DC 20, using a scroll is more difficult, and you can't take 10 on it. Good luck enjoying a 20% failure chance on every spell you cast.

[~xFellWardenx~]

And an argument that hasn't been mentioned yet,

At lower levels, as in the levels many campaigns actually play at, the rogue can't reliably activate wands yet.

A level-5 rogue has an UMD of +8 (skill ranks), +3 (charisma), +2 (if you want to spend one of your two feats on it) and +2 (MW item, which is not guaranteed to exist). Grand total of +15 at a considerable investment. Using a wand is DC 20, using a scroll is more difficult, and you can't take 10 on it. Good luck enjoying a 20% failure chance on every spell you cast.

Being super technical here, but one of those +2s should be +3 because a rogue has literally no reason to take Magical Aptitude unless they just have an extra feat laying around after they took Skill Focus: Use Magic Device. :smalltongue:

And of course, the opposing argument stands that at these low levels the wizard's spells aren't really anything world-rending yet and the rogue has the versatility of getting scrolls/wands from multiple caster lists. Don't know the validity of that argument, but people will argue it.

[ryu]

impossible, wizards need a high intelligence score, not a charisma score, and therefore won't invest that at character creation. any wizard obsessed enough to go through all this probably isn't the most social of people and would actually degrade his charisma as he spends all his time either studying or fighting monsters, as well as his wisdom. the rogue however will just wait until the wizard is too obsessed over his spells, then trick him into a death trap before he gets too powerful while selling him "totally legit" spells that are actually forgeries, as well as replacing his spellbook with a good forgery.

your talking about an ivory tower academic trying to take over the world, book smart =/= street smart, or social smart, or anything like that. Einsteins are not world-conquerors, or they're horribly bad ones.

You can't forgery someone with read magic that easily accessible. You also have no means of lying at low levels with all the easy lie detecting available.

[Averis Vol]

All I'm going to say is, someone infamously made the exact same argument about Monks a number of years back.

Oh man, those were some good times. I feel like another user also came along that was basically a perfect reincarnation of that guy. I'll be honest; I think he made a new account for that one and came back for a glorious, laugh filled week.

[Lord Raziere]

You can't forgery someone with read magic that easily accessible. You also have no means of lying at low levels with all the easy lie detecting available.

so the wizard has used up two their spells on spells and scrolls he has no reason to think is fake? unless your paranoid to the extreme, there is no reason to always check, as its a waste of resources. and again, your thinking that bookworm academic has the social awareness and social energy to think of that. so unless the hypothetical wizard your talking about is perfect in every way, as it does not matter how many tools you have on hand if you don't have the mind to use it right, I don't see how the rogue loses.

we're talking about a person who thinks its a good idea to spend years and years to master the simple ability to shoot fire out of their hands only twice a day and that ability to detect magic, four times a day. while wearing no armor and using probably not a very good back up weapon. no would-be world conqueror would think that is practical starting out, probably because a lot of people wouldn't consider their powers practical, without the full list like you have. the only ones who would develop it, would be the guys interested in developing it for the sake of developing it, and not really on being socially savvy or being incredibly paranoid.

heck, a lot of people in reality thought at first the TV wouldn't catch on. the people who developed it, developed it despite various costs and setbacks while everyone laughed around them, and when the invention finally got done and got sold, they didn't get a single cent for it. spells are the same: people will just look at the weak low-level stuff and think "oh, thats all it can do? it'll never catch on" and the people who are actually interested will do it for the sake of doing it, and never consider using it to conquer the world, because yes, we might think of it because we nerds, and they might think of it because they're nerds- but they'd never go through it. they'll just continue tinkering with the spells without actually using them to do anything world-conquering. because what nerds do, is make not for the sake of any ulterior motive, but make for the sake of making. and even if they consider it, social forces is stronger than you think. or heck, pleasure is stronger than you think. once your a badass wizard with so much power well.....why bother taking over the world? if your level 20, you probably have already achieved everything you want in life and gotten everything you could possibly desire.

that and thinking you can take over the world by yourself is pretty much the highest of all possible hubris, pride out of the wazoo. such people are probably not in a good mental state of mind? and if they aren't thinking clearly, then what makes you think they'll pick upon a rogue's clever trick to get rid of them? I mean....your imagining some kind of person with extreme paranoia, a lot of pride, probably a big ego, and a total obsession with obtaining power purely through magic here. thats more flaws than strengths there. and people like that are more manipulable than not. your not talking about a perfect paragon of reason wizard, your talking about a wizard who is borderline insane at best.

[Amphetryon]

impossible, wizards need a high intelligence score, not a charisma score, and therefore won't invest that at character creation. any wizard obsessed enough to go through all this probably isn't the most social of people and would actually degrade his charisma as he spends all his time either studying or fighting monsters, as well as his wisdom. the rogue however will just wait until the wizard is too obsessed over his spells, then trick him into a death trap before he gets too powerful while selling him "totally legit" spells that are actually forgeries, as well as replacing his spellbook with a good forgery.

your talking about an ivory tower academic trying to take over the world, book smart =/= street smart, or social smart, or anything like that. Einsteins are not world-conquerors, or they're horribly bad ones.

The obvious counter-argument here is that Eagle's Splendor is a spell that exists, and can be persisted if the Wizard decides that's necessary.

[Eldariel]

Actually, while not necessary, a high Charisma is a nice luxury value for Wizards who do Charming, Planar Binding, etc. Such spells involve Charisma-checks and as such, it's not all that out there for a Wizard to prioritise Charisma. Indeed, I'd expect a Wizard to have a Charisma comparable to a Rogue; Rogue needs very high Dex and high Con & good Int. Wizard needs very high Int, good Dex, good Con. Both have a similar amount of points to invest in Charisma and both are more likely to invest in Charisma than in Wisdom or Strength (though Rogue of course needs Wisdom a bit more if he doesn't want to be the one getting conned all the time; he also lacks the inherent Will-saves so sacrificing Wis can be risky in the sense of getting mindraped by any prodigal Wizard seeking useful lackeys).

As such, I don't think a Rogue has an advantage on that front even before accounting for the buff spells the Wizard has to improve the goods. Also, inspecting goods you buy is always a very good idea for the simple reason of Nystul's Magic Aura; it's very simple for any Wizard to market non-magical items as magic items and it's practically impossible for non-casters to tell the difference without getting to try them out. In other words, even with just level 0 and 1 spells Wizards are far ahead in the conmanship game. Also, Wizards are naturally really good at Forgeries even spending just that one cross-class rank in there (I always take one rank of all Int-based skills that require training to use as a Wizard since my native bonuses are so high I can actually make a lot of checks that way), so that's not necessarily an advantage for a Rogue until later on and even only if he's so inclined. Wizard has little reason to accept second-hand sources for scrolls too since whenever doing scroll purchasing, it's quite cheap to use that Read Magic, a cantrip which lasts 10 min/level and lets you inspect any number of scrolls.


The big difference between nuclear weapons and Wizards is that while Wizards have the world-shattering power, they more importantly have subtle, pinpoint accuracy power. They can mind control people, they can create fake and real goods more or less at will, they can move at speeds higher than the speed of light, they can generate loyal underlings of many persuasions with little effort, they're actually able to run a whole government. Indeed, the whole government might just be their puppets. A rogue can just manipulate; Wizard can do that and then some. And with spells, it's quite possible to do anything a Rogue can do better.

[~xFellWardenx~]

Wow. I'll say that this is the first time I've seen somebody suggest that wizards don't have the minds to think of something. Weird, but not totally unwarranted here I suppose.

I disagree with the fundamentals of what you're saying, Raziere, though the conclusion I can kinda get with. First of all, yeah, apprentices aren't meant to be totally impressive. Level one characters aren't, and NPCs should expect that. Apprentice (Level 1) wizard can just shoot a little fire and increase how fast he runs? Whoopie, and a Fighter can swing a sword okay-ish when he has to. You don't expect newbies of any profession to be terribly competent. As soon as 3rd level, a wizard can do things like turn invisible, create extremely realistic and convincing illusions, summon swarms of vermin, and even change shape into pretty much any humanoid a person who hasn't picked their first class level yet would know about. It's a powerful business, and it's already been done. It's not like a TV, where nobody has seen its usefulness yet; wizards have come and gone and risen to powerful positions many times already in most worlds.

Also, not all wizards are crazy socially-inept geeks who care about nothing except the pursuit of their art. That is but one trope among wizards, and a rather rare one in practice. Sure, wizards are usually a little socially inept, and some are pretty oblivious to social norms, but the idea that they're strong and other people might want them dead is a foreign concept only to the most naive of wizards. The vast majority will take at least a precaution or two against every guy with a dagger up their sleeve being able to kill them with no muss or fuss.

I will agree to the idea that the party Rogue in most normal groups that I've experienced would have no trouble giving the wizard forged items, tricking him, and in the right moments killing him, though. But that's not because the wizard is so careless that he never checks anything out, or because he's so naive and focused on his magic that he thinks every gift he receives from everyone ever is genuine. Nor is it because he's so socially dense that he can't comprehend the idea of murder plots.

It's because in most parties, the wizard and rogue are friends.

Do you take every gift you receive from your best friends on your birthdays to professionals to make sure they're not counterfeit products? Do you turn down apology gifts from your college buddy after a fight if you've already forgiven them? Do you take a metal detector to every person you invite over for dinner or a reunion party? Do you make sure never to keep your back to the guy who served in your platoon in the war, who saved your life numerous times and whose life you saved an equally numerous amount of times, for fear that he'll slip a knife in your spine?

No. You trust those people. Most people don't expect their loved ones who they've been through thick and thin with to try to hurt them, or kill them, or give them fake gifts that will backfire on them. It's called being a trusting and rational human being. That's pretty much as socially normal as it gets, by the way. You trust your friends; that's how friendships work.

I think that "super socially savvy" rogue of yours would be rather shocked if his adventuring buddy of several years and many life-threatening experiences tried to murder him out of nowhere, too.

[Lord Raziere]

and? a wizard is still an Einstein, an academic. this myth that a guy can conquer the world with just a big brain and some spells is ridiculous. the person would have be INSANE to think of all this, as in paranoid, prideful, narcissistic, completely obsessed with a single avenue to power, forgetting pretty much everything else for this one thing they are not sure might actually work, probably jumping at their own shadow and checking their shoes every they wake up for magical traps, they'd be so filled up with neuroses and thinking so unreasonably that they wouldn't be a functional member of society. forget conquering the world, people would label them as crazy and they'd get sent off to the dungeons were you keep the mentally ill and not the dungeons where you fight monsters.

[~xFellWardenx~]

Hey, no problems, Raziere. I think that any wizard who thinks his spells are enough to crush the entire world under his boot and dominate it in one fell swoop is totally crazy, too; I wasn't one of the people making the argument that a wizard could do so back there. I just wanted to point out that most wizards aren't as irrational as you describe.

As a side note, wizards can do the clever subversion thing too. Where Rogues have Diplomacy and Bluff and high Charisma, wizards have disguised Charm spells and honest dialogue and ways to make an economy depend on him and probably a few connections of his own that the rogue would have trouble befriending, though the rogue has these of his own as well. A wizard interested in acquiring political power has plenty of tools to go about it intelligently, even if the rogue might have a few better tools in his kit specifically made for the job. And the high Int means they won't be completely oblivious to political maneuvers, though they might not be any good at appealing to a person's emotions.

(Don't get me wrong, I still think rogues are better at the job than wizards, wizards just aren't too shabby at it if they put forth the effort.)

[Lord Raziere]

well, most wizards are probably those guys who stay in guilds and quietly study and make a living out of say, using prestidigitation to perform parlor tricks or enchanting amulets with protection from X or something , or if they're evil, just find a rich person and using charm person to convince them to let their new friend stay over one more day, every day and spend a little more money on them....

what I'm protesting against is the conceit that there would actually be a wizard out there who would think there could actually do all this stuff and pull it off, the probability of such a wizard existing would be incredibly low, and its far more likely the wizard that tries it is dangerously mentally unbalanced and is in no position to conquer anything.

[~xFellWardenx~]

well, most wizards are probably those guys who stay in guilds and quietly study and make a living out of say, using prestidigitation to perform parlor tricks or enchanting amulets with protection from X or something , or if they're evil, just find a rich person and using charm person to convince them to let their new friend stay over one more day, every day and spend a little more money on them....

what I'm protesting against is the conceit that there would actually be a wizard out there who would think there could actually do all this stuff and pull it off, the probability of such a wizard existing would be incredibly low, and its far more likely the wizard that tries it is dangerously mentally unbalanced and is in no position to conquer anything.

I think you stereotype character classes too much. Not much more than most on these boards, but still.

Ignoring that, though, two things. One, plenty of dictators haven't let the crazy stop them from being successful to a large degree, and conceit is a pretty common trait anyway.

Two, not all conquerors are even crazy, and they didn't have to be wizards to get where they got. Alexander the Great took over a continent and a half's worth, and he didn't even fight directly. Imagine what a competent wizard could have accomplished in his shoes? The results would be staggering. And that's for a low-mid level wizard. Imagine a high-level one? A 15th-level wizard who has prepared himself and his own army properly for an invasion would seem to the unfortunate victims very similar to a pit fiend marching an army out of hell.

As an added note: Yeah, probably 95% of wizards are going to sit there making a decent living and not doing much of anything impressive. Like 95% of warrior-types will become town guards or average mercenaries and never accomplish anything relevant aside from reaching the next good paycheck, and 95% of rogue-types will be pickpockets and thugs and everyday burglars... Heck, even 95% of Clerics will sit in a church doibg charity stuff and praying their whole lives.

The 5% are where it's at. The 5% are the people who do important stuff, the adventurers, the heroes, the conquerors or the freedom fighters, the wizards who can look at bigger goals while staying realistic. D&D is very nice in at least one way: The characters who take the big risk almost always have big rewards in for them if they make it through.

Perhaps you think striving for bigger things is conceited and foolish in general? A legitimate train of thought, though not one I'd agree with. Or maybe it's just the "take over the world!" example? In which case I'd say a rogue trying to do so is equally conceited.

But hey, sometimes it works out. Sometimes the adventurers are successful and do big things. Sometimes the cultists go through with the summoning ritual. Sometimes the fighter raises the rebellion and frees the world from the evil dictator.

Maybe it's unlikely that the wizard can conquer the world, and he sure as hell won't succeed if he's stupid about it. But hey, nobody ever accomplished anything without trying. Who knows?

I think we've gotten a bit off-topic, though. If you'd like to continue this discussion, we may do so over PM.

[Telonius]

and? a wizard is still an Einstein, an academic. this myth that a guy can conquer the world with just a big brain and some spells is ridiculous. the person would have be INSANE to think of all this, as in paranoid, prideful, narcissistic, completely obsessed with a single avenue to power, forgetting pretty much everything else for this one thing they are not sure might actually work, probably jumping at their own shadow and checking their shoes every they wake up for magical traps, they'd be so filled up with neuroses and thinking so unreasonably that they wouldn't be a functional member of society. forget conquering the world, people would label them as crazy and they'd get sent off to the dungeons were you keep the mentally ill and not the dungeons where you fight monsters.

"paranoid, prideful, narcissistic, completely obsessed with a single avenue to power" - I work for a science journal, and I have definitely encountered scientists whose personalities match this description. Not a lot of them, by any means, but they do exist.

The actual Einstein was a very, very charismatic man. So were Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Edison, and half the other scientists whose names you know. You know those names because they were able to be socially adept enough to make friends with the people who had power. In this universe, smarts does not necessarily equal power. But imagine if Newton had actually been able to turn lead into gold, or what eldritch horrors Nikola Tesla would have summoned up if it had been possible. Instead of just designing a nuclear weapon, Oppenheimer would have been even more of a game-changer.

[Necroticplague]

Two, not all conquerors are even crazy, and they didn't have to be wizards to get where they got. Alexander the Great took over a continent and a half's worth, and he didn't even fight directly. Imagine what a competent wizard could have accomplished in his shoes? The results would be staggering. And that's for a low-mid level wizard. Imagine a high-level one? A 15th-level wizard who has prepared himself and his own army properly for an invasion would seem to the unfortunate victims very similar to a pit fiend marching an army out of hell.

Give it a few levels, and the wizard could literally (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Gate) have demons out of hell the abyss marching. Or has been doing so for several levels with planar binding.

[Svata]

All I'm going to say is, someone infamously made the exact same argument about Monks a number of years back.

At least it is a class skill for rogues.

[eggynack]

impossible, wizards need a high intelligence score, not a charisma score, and therefore won't invest that at character creation. any wizard obsessed enough to go through all this probably isn't the most social of people and would actually degrade his charisma as he spends all his time either studying or fighting monsters, as well as his wisdom. the rogue however will just wait until the wizard is too obsessed over his spells, then trick him into a death trap before he gets too powerful while selling him "totally legit" spells that are actually forgeries, as well as replacing his spellbook with a good forgery.

your talking about an ivory tower academic trying to take over the world, book smart =/= street smart, or social smart, or anything like that. Einsteins are not world-conquerors, or they're horribly bad ones.
What are you talking about? My reasonably explicit argument was that our uncharismatic wizard doesn't care about how uncharismatic he is, because he has the ability to, say, planar binding a succubus, thus gaining access to a creature with 26 charisma. And then, look at that, the wizard is super charismatic. Probably even more than the rogue is.

That's just me running a really simple version of this. The comment you responded to supposed that the wizard either mind rape someone with a high charisma, or otherwise create someone with high charisma from whole cloth. What's the difference between a character that has high charisma, and a character that has control of someone with high charisma? The big ones I can see are that the charisma controlling guy is insulated from harm if the charismatic efforts go up in smoke, and that the charisma controller isn't spending their own time on this. In fact, on the latter count, the wizard could be controlling a number of people simultaneously, thus having many times the charismatic achievements of his charismatic counterpart.

[Adverb]

I think there's some truth to this argument in that being extremely clever, and having access to a lot of powerful magical stuff, can solve a huge host of problems.

This is perhaps less than surprising?

[Curmudgeon]

This thing right here is the issue. Rogues don't really get much in the way of class features that let them acquire money in a particularly efficient way, and covering the entirety of the game is wealth by level.
No, that's really not true. Wealth by Level is a chart you can use to create characters starting at levels higher than 1st and give them average resources. It's not a call to DMs to micro-manage PC resources by stealing from them if they're "too wealthy". Rogues can be made, and played, to stay comfortably above that WbL average. Gaining extra wealth takes some extra work, of course. While the party Wizard is required to rest and prepare their spells (9 hours, every day) the Elf Rogue can be out (possibly with other, non-spellcasting PCs) doing that. Just as in real life, having a second full-time job will greatly increase your income.

Logistically there might be some push-back. The Wizard might be annoyed that the Rogue is out making money bodyguarding some wealthy noble instead of sitting around guarding the Wizard (for no money) while they sleep and prepare. The Wizard's player will likely resent the time the DM spends on the nighttime adventures of the Rogue (and other PCs) while the Wizard is unavailable for action. However, there's nothing at all, from a rules perspective, that the Wizard player can point to and say that's "wrong". The Wizard player chose a Tier 1 class knowing that they'd have lots of powerful character options; they also chose their character's class knowing its time constraints. The Rogue doesn't have either the "Easy button" Tier 1 magic power or those time requirements. And if they choose to be an Elf, they have 5 hours every day (starting at level 1) when they don't need to rest while the Wizard is unavailable. Upon gaining reliability with Use Magic Device that instead becomes 9 hours daily, at the cost of 15 gp for one charge from a wand to alleviate fatigue from not trancing. 35 extra hours at low levels, and 63 extra hours at higher levels, makes for plenty of earning time each week.

Solo or small group adventuring is more dangerous than going out with a larger party, especially with limited spellcasting support. The Rogue is incurring extra risk for their extra reward. Occasionally it may not work out: the Rogue might burn through consumables (potions, scrolls, wands) to cover a need for magic and end up spending too much that way to make a profit. Or they could end up dead. But, practically speaking, the Rogue needs considerably more wealth than the Wizard to handle situations the Wizard's magic covers. There's nothing "fair" about keeping the Rogue to the same wealth as the Wizard, when you're not doing anything else to keep the characters "fair" in terms of relative power. Having unequal wealth is more "fair" here.


Getting to the OP's "Tier 0" claim, I think that's too much of a stretch. I'm pretty good at building Rogue characters so they can keep up with the spellcasters in the party, but I'd still peg my optimization results at roughly Tier 2 equivalent, assuming the spellcaster players are also trying their best. I think the only way to really do better is to drag the spellcaster characters down by stealing from them. While that's eminently possible, I've never played a Rogue like that; the risk is too high if you're giving a spellcaster incentive to metamagic up and dump a zillion save-or-die effects on you — as opposed to just grumbling that you're not providing free nighttime watch service for them.

[eggynack]

Snip
I suppose that's somewhat logical, though as I pointed out later, wealth by level is not a restriction you want to relax if you want rogues to be stronger than casters. Those methods you've listed for faster GP acquisition are a pittance compared to what magic can do. As for the rogue having more gold being more "fair", perhaps, but it's somewhat irrelevant. If rogues need more help than casters, that's a tacit acceptance of the fact that casters are more powerful, so the argument for rogue superiority vanishes in a puff of smoke.

[HaikenEdge]

If it turns into a monetary arms race, the Wizard will beat the Rogue. Wall of Salt is a 4th level spell, available to a Wizard at 7th level, and given the value of Salt is given in the SRD, I think a Wizard who casts Wall of Salt once a day and sells it at half listed price will consistently make more money than a rogue who steals every night.

Edit: For the math (somebody should double check these calculations):

Caster level 7, meaning 7 x one 5-ft. square/level, 7 x 1 inch/level thickness (let's round down to 6 inches, to make the math easy, so we can just divide by 2). (5 x 5 x 7)/2 = 175/2 = 87.5 cubic feet

A cubic foot of NaCL (table salt) weighs 72 pounds per cubic foot.

Therefore, by these calculations, a single casting of Wall of Salt, by a 7th level wizard, will yield more than 6300 pounds of salt. Now, salt, as a trade good, is listed as 5 gp/pound, but since we're selling at half price, that's 2.5 gp/pound. 2.5 gp x 6300 pounds = 15750 gp, and this is excluding the extra inch, which, let's assume for argument's sake was lost during the portioning of the salt for sale, or due to theft, or whatever.

WBL listed for a 7th level character is 19k; therefore, with a single 4th level spell, a 7th level Wizard can produce just under 83% of his total WBL.

[Necroticplague]

Main problem i find with this is that any option the rogue has access to, so does the wizard. Heck, the wizard doesn't need to make a UMD check for most of it, so it does those options even better. The difference in chassis is so marginal of a benefit that it barely enters into it (Hide life:I now have infinitely more life-points. to-hit:touch attacks are really easy to land). Also, what class features does a rogue have that let him make the money to support this consumption? For wizards, I can at least see Wall of Iron, Wall of Salt, Wall of Fire, Creation (Minor or True), Fabrication, PaO, Gate, Genesis. And even given the proper wealth and UMD to do all of this, the rogue only has his power due to being lent it by the wizards/artificers/archivists who bother to craft things for him. Whereas the wizard's power is its own to use.

And as to being charismatic: that is a valid point. Except for things like various polymorphing magic, summoning magic (why talk to foolish mortals when you can have a greater succubus do it for you), mind-control (talking to someone without rushing takes a minute. Casting Necrotic Cyst then Necrotic Tumor takes 2 rounds.), skill-enhancing, or simply lack of needing (why do you need other suckers? Anything they can do, you can do.).

[eggynack]

If it turns into a monetary arms race, the Wizard will beat the Rogue. Wall of Salt is a 4th level spell, available to a Wizard at 7th level, and given the value of Salt is given in the SRD, I think a Wizard who casts Wall of Salt once a day and sells it at half listed price will consistently make more money than a rogue who steals every night.
When I last ran the numbers, the price of the salt from a 7th level casting came out to approximately 25,250 GP. This is at list price, rather than half price, but that's a reasonable thing as salt is a market good.

[Lord Raziere]

"paranoid, prideful, narcissistic, completely obsessed with a single avenue to power" - I work for a science journal, and I have definitely encountered scientists whose personalities match this description. Not a lot of them, by any means, but they do exist.

The actual Einstein was a very, very charismatic man. So were Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Edison, and half the other scientists whose names you know. You know those names because they were able to be socially adept enough to make friends with the people who had power. In this universe, smarts does not necessarily equal power. But imagine if Newton had actually been able to turn lead into gold, or what eldritch horrors Nikola Tesla would have summoned up if it had been possible. Instead of just designing a nuclear weapon, Oppenheimer would have been even more of a game-changer.

fine whatever, you win, again. I hate tiers and what the kind of discussion they cause. I am really starting to wish I had the time and the mechanical skill to make some kind of roguish class that can beat a wizard or something, cause these discussions are always make me grumpy, don't know why I bother.

[HaikenEdge]

When I last ran the numbers, the price of the salt from a 7th level casting came out to approximately 25,250 GP. This is at list price, rather than half price, but that's a reasonable thing as salt is a market good.

Edited my post to include the math, but I think our numbers are fairly close, but I think it just further shows that a caster will generally be ahead of a rogue who has to go steal stuff, if it turns into a race of money.

[eggynack]

Edited my post to include the math, but I think our numbers are fairly close, but I think it just further shows that a caster will generally be ahead of a rogue who has to go steal stuff, if it turns into a race of money.
Yeah, by my recollection, the big barrier to perfect wall-pricing accuracy is determining the density of salt. I went with coarse salt, because it leads to the lowest price, but other densities are reasonable as well.

[Zweisteine]

wizard, until you realize that all of the so-called "wizards" in the real world have made weapons that can destroy cities, but it is the guys with all the charisma and under-handedness still running the show....
Do you mean to imply that bards run everything? Because glibness + charisma-based class = politician.
Also, if you look again, you'll see that those guys with Int 10, and Cha 18 are being controlled by the guys with Int 18 and Cha 10.

[HaikenEdge]

Yeah, by my recollection, the big barrier to perfect wall-pricing accuracy is determining the density of salt. I went with coarse salt, because it leads to the lowest price, but other densities are reasonable as well.

Your numbers probably aren't wrong; I went with pure salt (which I Googled), but since the spell doesn't actually specify what kind of salt it is, it really could go either way.

I think the more important point we were both trying to make is just how easy it is for a wizard to increase their wealth with minimal effort.

[Lord Raziere]

Do you mean to imply that bards run everything? Because glibness + charisma-based class = politician.
Also, if you look again, you'll see that those guys with Int 10, and Cha 18 are being controlled by the guys with Int 18 and Cha 10.

where? politicians are controlled by corporations. who runs corporations? guys obsessed with money who will do any underhanded means of getting it, or y'know, ROGUES.

if your talking about statistics influencing their decisions, thats purely the wizard dutifully using scrying for the bard and the rogue for them to make the decisions upon from the results, all the wizard has done is shown them the truth, the rogue and the bard are the one making the decisions here and therefore are the ones in power.

[eggynack]

where? politicians are controlled by corporations. who runs corporations? guys obsessed with money who will do any underhanded means of getting it, or y'know, ROGUES.

if your talking about statistics influencing their decisions, thats purely the wizard dutifully using scrying for the bard and the rogue for them to make the decisions upon from the results, all the wizard has done is shown them the truth, the rogue and the bard are the one making the decisions here and therefore are the ones in power.
This isn't the real world. The rogue isn't some perfect corporation guy analogue, and the wizard isn't some perfect politician analogue, or scientist analogue, or whatever. This is because the wizard can assert perfect control of your rogue at sufficiently high levels, and at low levels, he can gain access to a creature with just about the same skill set as your rogue. The real world doesn't have magic, so any power that you assert that a given person has will come in the form of influence, often subtle, often not, but rarely perfect and absolute. This world we're talking about does have magic, so the situation is completely different.

[Lord Raziere]

and I've already said that you won, congratz.

I still want to someday make a rogue that can stab a wizard in the heart with an ordinary dagger and yell "WHERE IS YOUR ARCANE MAGIC NOW!?" as they bleed to death. :smallannoyed:

[~xFellWardenx~]

and I've already said that you won, congratz.

I still want to someday make a rogue that can stab a wizard in the heart with an ordinary dagger and yell "WHERE IS YOUR ARCANE MAGIC NOW!?" as they bleed to death. :smallannoyed:

It's more common than you'd think. A lot of people care more about playing/running fun PCs/NPCs than actually playing them to their maximum potential. (Well, some people find the playing them to max potential part more fun than anything else, but I mean as a generalization) You generally won't find those people in a thread dedicated to questioning the tier placement of a particular class when optimized to a given capacity, though.

[HaikenEdge]

and I've already said that you won, congratz.

I still want to someday make a rogue that can stab a wizard in the heart with an ordinary dagger and yell "WHERE IS YOUR ARCANE MAGIC NOW!?" as they bleed to death. :smallannoyed:

Good luck with that when the Wizard is astral projecting from their own demiplane that the rogue cannot gain access to. Only chance to do that is at extremely low levels.

That said, as an addendum to what was said previously about charismatic characters, having high charisma itself isn't enough to be manipulative and controlling; those characters also need ranks in Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate and Sense Motive. Sure, a Rogue gets those as class skills, but a Wizard can too, and the Wizard has sufficient Intelligence to have the skill points to power these skills.

[squiggit]

This isn't the real world.

Even if it was I'm pretty sure most politicians have class levels in bard or rogue anyways.

I feel like the analogy is backwards, because the public face needs to be the charismatic one (hence the term 'face' in tabletops), the guy behind the scenes can freely dump charisma because he's never intending to take center stage in the first place.

[HaikenEdge]

Even if it was I'm pretty sure most politicians have class levels in bard or rogue anyways.

I'd bet they have levels in expert.

[Lord Raziere]

Good luck with that when the Wizard is astral projecting from their own demiplane that the rogue cannot gain access to. Only chance to do that is at extremely low levels.

That said, as an addendum to what was said previously about charismatic characters, having high charisma itself isn't enough to be manipulative and controlling; those characters also need ranks in Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate and Sense Motive. Sure, a Rogue gets those as class skills, but a Wizard can too, and the Wizard has sufficient Intelligence to have the skill points to power these skills.

no, I'm talking about stabbing that image and having the PAIN travel through it to kill the wizard himself, I'm talking about sneaking into the plane with pure stealth and guile, I'm talking about every single spell and enchantment and plan FALLING APART AS I STAB HIM, OVER AND OVER AGAIN AS I YELL "SUFFER NOT THE WITCH TO LIVE!" and then burning all that he has wrought into ashes, in a class designed so that the wizard's downfall will be assured!

this "wizard always wins" discussion is literally driving me crazy, and making me want to find some videogame where I can make a witch hunter or something and just go around killing witches and wizards with a dagger and just kill them, over and over again, no story.....just death.....just death....I don't care how it happens, I just want them to lose, to die, to finally teach them that magic doesn't solve everything through the final lesson, taught through my little sharp dagger through their neck....:smallsmile: I don't even care if its not 3.5 anymore, I just want the wizards to die. for the witch to be burned.

[Vrock_Summoner]

You know, some people might consider it a problem that you have a drive to commit genocide over other peoples' professions. That said, I'll be sure to PM you first if I run any witch-hunting games, Razzie :smallwink:

[Grod_The_Giant]

I don't even care if its not 3.5 anymore, I just want the wizards to die. for the witch to be burned.
Yeah... you're probably going to need a non-3.5 game. Any non-3.5 game should work. It's kind of frustrating, but that's the mechanical nature of the game we're playing here. (Any probably why we've been using so many roleplaying arguments in this thread)

[HaikenEdge]

no, I'm talking about stabbing that image and having the PAIN travel through it to kill the wizard himself, I'm talking about sneaking into the plane with pure stealth and guile, I'm talking about every single spell and enchantment and plan FALLING APART AS I STAB HIM, OVER AND OVER AGAIN AS I YELL "SUFFER NOT THE WITCH TO LIVE!" and then burning all that he has wrought into ashes, in a class designed so that the wizard's downfall will be assured!

this "wizard always wins" discussion is literally driving me crazy, and making me want to find some videogame where I can make a witch hunter or something and just go around killing witches and wizards with a dagger and just kill them, over and over again, no story.....just death.....just death....I don't care how it happens, I just want them to lose, to die, to finally teach them that magic doesn't solve everything through the final lesson, taught through my little sharp dagger through their neck....:smallsmile: I don't even care if its not 3.5 anymore, I just want the wizards to die. for the witch to be burned.

Then it sounds like 3.5 isn't the game you want to play anyways, and you should look to another system for the games you want to play. As is, it really comes off as a tantrum and a bit of missing understanding of how wizards operate, because, I'm pretty sure you won't be able to sneak into the plane at all, you won't be able to guile your way in, and I'm fairly certain the Wizard won't care about the pain if you stab him anyways, since he'll probably have Masochism on regardless.

[~xFellWardenx~]

What the... 3.5 works just fine for the kind of game Raziere wants to play! :smallannoyed: 3.5 has mechanical flaws, that's for sure, and optimizers capitalize on those flaws daily, but just because you can optimize something to make it a certain way does not mean that's what the system was designed for. Because it really isn't, not even a little bit. And telling someone that they're playing the wrong system because they're playing it the way the designers intended instead of your (totally viable, but not all-inclusive) alternative take on what the system works best for is as ridiculous as telling someone they shouldn't like burgers because they prefer traditional hamburger and ketchup while you prefer steak burger with relish. Actually, more accurately, it's like telling them they shouldn't like burgers because they like the same burger but cooked differently. It's just... Silliness.

3.5 is a fabulous system usable for a lot of different playstyles. And you may disagree with that assessment, but you shouldn't tell someone they're "playing the wrong game" or that they have a problem with "childishness and lack of system mastery" just because they play differently from you.

Because, really, making claims like that is what's childish.

[Necroticplague]

If the system wasn't "designed" for play that makes mundanes mere peons to the spellcaster, why would most of the material for such be in the very beginning of the game, with minimal modification later? Lets ignore masochism, hide life, wall of salt. Lets ignore everything except for Core, attribute it all to power bloat. Now explain what kind of crack makes genesis, astral projection, planar binding, iron body, and shapechange allow for a game where the rogue can sneak up and shank the wizard, killing him? Regardless of what they intended to make, what they made was far different.

Or to use an analogy as I see it:
1:I want to drive a car!
2:you might not want this then. It blows up if you press the gas, so its not really much of a car.
1:but it should be more like a car!
2:whether it should be is irrelevant, its pretty much a bomb.
3:yes, but they meant for it to be a car, not a bomb, so its fine if you try driving it like a car.

[Vrock_Summoner]

If the system wasn't "designed" for play that makes mundanes mere peons to the spellcaster, why would most of the material for such be in the very beginning of the game, with minimal modification later? Lets ignore masochism, hide life, wall of salt. Lets ignore everything except for Core, attribute it all to power bloat. Now explain what kind of crack makes genesis, astral projection, planar binding, iron body, and shapechange allow for a game where the rogue can sneak up and shank the wizard, killing him? Regardless of what they intended to make, what they made was far different.

Or to use an analogy as I see it:
1:I want to drive a car!
2:you might not want this then. It blows up if you press the gas, so its not really much of a car.
1:but it should be more like a car!
2:whether it should be is irrelevant, its pretty much a bomb.
3:yes, but they meant for it to be a car, not a bomb, so its fine if you try driving it like a car.

I agree with most of what you're saying, but Planar Binding is completely irrelevant to what you're saying and you listed three 9th level spells. That... Isn't really the realm normal gameplay takes place in. Also, a Genesis-made demiplane actually isn't too hard for a Rogue to get into assuming he's equally high level with appropriate magic items (not even necessarily scrolls and the like with UMD, just magic items). The problem most developers didn't expect was wizards finding loopholes that made it possible to make the only way to your demiplane to go through another demiplane that could have time traits applied to it, and similar things.

Not saying the game is balanced for it, but if you use the spells and items only for their most basic intended purpose, the game doesn't tend to shake itself apart quite so badly. We're gamers, though; using the minimum basic intention is hardly our style. :smalltongue:

[Grod_The_Giant]

It's not that you can't play 3.5 as a low-magic, swords-and-sorcery type game; it's just that the system is an exponentially-growing high-fantasy superhero thing, and using it for a different purpose is... well, it's like using a truck to drive your kids to school. Sure, it works, but you're dealing with a whole lot of inconveniences along the way, and it'd probably be easier using a sedan.

[Seppo87]

Even if it was I'm pretty sure most politicians have class levels in bard or rogue anyways.
As a native Italian, I can tell for sure Silvio Berlusconi has both

[ryu]

I agree with most of what you're saying, but Planar Binding is completely irrelevant to what you're saying and you listed three 9th level spells. That... Isn't really the realm normal gameplay takes place in. Also, a Genesis-made demiplane actually isn't too hard for a Rogue to get into assuming he's equally high level with appropriate magic items (not even necessarily scrolls and the like with UMD, just magic items). The problem most developers didn't expect was wizards finding loopholes that made it possible to make the only way to your demiplane to go through another demiplane that could have time traits applied to it, and similar things.

Not saying the game is balanced for it, but if you use the spells and items only for their most basic intended purpose, the game doesn't tend to shake itself apart quite so badly. We're gamers, though; using the minimum basic intention is hardly our style. :smalltongue:

Minimum basic intent is blaster wizards. Any system whose basic assumption is that the simplest and most straightforward tactic will be used almost to the exclusion of all else on a class based around intelligence and planning both by fluff and crunch is already wrong on a basic level and deserves all the breaking it gets in result.

[Vrock_Summoner]

That's just not true. Even blasters often end up using more than basic intent. You're misapplying terms. Those other spells aren't just there to look pretty on the page; wizards are expected to use them. What I mean is simple usage. Genesis by itself isn't broken; Astral Projection by itself isn't broken; the individual pieces are generally not too bad. (Except Time Stop. What the hell, WotC?) It's when it all comes together that things get messy.

Eggs are good, lobster is good, and milkshakes are good, but they don't come together so well. It's like that.

[Necroticplague]

I agree with most of what you're saying, but Planar Binding is completely irrelevant to what you're saying and you listed three 9th level spells. That... Isn't really the realm normal gameplay takes place in. Also, a Genesis-made demiplane actually isn't too hard for a Rogue to get into assuming he's equally high level with appropriate magic items (not even necessarily scrolls and the like with UMD, just magic items). The problem most developers didn't expect was wizards finding loopholes that made it possible to make the only way to your demiplane to go through another demiplane that could have time traits applied to it, and similar things.

Not saying the game is balanced for it, but if you use the spells and items only for their most basic intended purpose, the game doesn't tend to shake itself apart quite so badly. We're gamers, though; using the minimum basic intention is hardly our style. :smalltongue:

Planar binding is to solve two different problems:1.You have to sleep eventually. And in that time, the wizard will have a paid demon to kill any sneaky rogues for him (see invisible and darkvision make him hard to sneak up one). and 2.astral projection is a level 9 spell. Planar binding a Nightmare to do it for you, however, is a level 6 and a level 3 spell.

Also, what loopholes? I'm just using a few spells in one of the most straightforward way possible: make your own demiplane (after plane shifting to the ethereal), summon a few creatures, cut a deal with one for protection of said demiplane, and the other for a use of its at-will ability. Also, how's a rogue getting into the ethereal without a wizard's help? Nevermind,figured it out, candle of invocation works. .

[ryu]

That's just not true. Even blasters often end up using more than basic intent. You're misapplying terms. Those other spells aren't just there to look pretty on the page; wizards are expected to use them. What I mean is simple usage. Genesis by itself isn't broken; Astral Projection by itself isn't broken; the individual pieces are generally not too bad. (Except Time Stop. What the hell, WotC?) It's when it all comes together that things get messy.

Eggs are good, lobster is good, and milkshakes are good, but they don't come together so well. It's like that.

Excuse me? Astral Projection isn't broken on its own? The spell that renders you virtually impervious to harm even if you aren't on your own demiplane, allows you to use multiply the effect of consumable items by getting free uses of them, and other such nonsense isn't broken? What? As for genesis making an entire plane out of pure gold and fabricating chunks out to sell isn't broken? As a matter of fact lets look at fabricate. If you can't think of simple methods of economy breaking using that spell and no other magic I don't even know what we're talking about here.

[georgie_leech]

Excuse me? Astral Projection isn't broken on its own? The spell that renders you virtually impervious to harm even if you aren't on your own demiplane, allows you to use multiply the effect of consumable items by getting free uses of them, and other such nonsense isn't broken? What? As for genesis making an entire plane out of pure gold and fabricating chunks out to sell isn't broken? As a matter of fact lets look at fabricate. If you can't think of simple methods of economy breaking using that spell and no other magic I don't even know what we're talking about here.

This. These are all effects that can make for a good story; an epic act of creation literally forming substance from nothing; projecting your consciousness into the world to act remotely; bending time itself to your will to gain the upper hand. Trouble is, these are default abilities of the class, rather than unique story elements or needing epic quests in and of themselves to achieve. If creating a demiplane required (not just loosely) adventuring into the depths of the Astral Sea to find the Waters of Life, Original Stone, Breath of Inspiration, and Fires of Creation in order to impose some order on a localised area of the astral plane, Genesis would be a little more reasonable as an effect. Likewise, if Planar Binding required an arduous journey into the lower planes to find the forgotten library that contained the True Name of the being you hope to summon, it would be a little less broken. Unfortunately, while other stories include these limitations, 3.5 glosses over them and upon killing your 87th giant rat or something suddenly you can call upon the Outer Planes for minio-I mean, assistance.

[Vrock_Summoner]

Astral Projection by itself leaves the possibility of your body being found. Can't really protect yourself when your consciousness is elsewhere. Genesis for a plane of gold is hardly universally agreed upon as RAW and I seriously doubt the designers would say yes if you asked if it were legal to use it that way. You got me on Fabricate, though. Polymorph line is iffy too.

[Necroticplague]

Astral Projection by itself leaves the possibility of your body being found. Can't really protect yourself when your consciousness is elsewhere. Genesis for a plane of gold is hardly universally agreed upon as RAW and I seriously doubt the designers would say yes if you asked if it were legal to use it that way. You got me on Fabricate, though. Polymorph line is iffy too.

-Bound creatures can do a good job of protecting you.
-Sure you can. Astral projection doesn't stop you from being able to have your astral self visit your normal self to check up on things, if necessary.
-I'm not sure what part of "reflecting most any desire the spellcaster can visualize" is ambiguous. Plus, being full of gold in the air could be covered by 'atmosphere'.

[ryu]

Astral Projection by itself leaves the possibility of your body being found. Can't really protect yourself when your consciousness is elsewhere. Genesis for a plane of gold is hardly universally agreed upon as RAW and I seriously doubt the designers would say yes if you asked if it were legal to use it that way. You got me on Fabricate, though. Polymorph line is iffy too.

Not even astral projecting specifically to fight. Scrolls you use while astral projecting still exist in real form when you're done. Do you have any idea the amount of stupid that can easily be used to pull with even brief use?

[molten_dragon]

I had this argument with a guy. His reasoning was the following:
-A rogue can use scrolls, therefore he's got full access to tier1 potential. If a wizard can do it, a Rogue can as well.
-Rogues by default get more HPs, more BaB and more weapon damage than wizards, insane skill points, and passive features that grant survivability, therefore, assuming equal buffs, the Rogue will outperform the Wizard in every area
-Hide + easyly available ways to prevent divination = you can sneak and kill every mage in the universe
-Gold is not a problem for a class that's specialized in acquiring money

He also said this definitely applied to core, while he admitted that "all sources" might give different results because of "developer mistakes".

What do you think of it? Why is UMD not considered part of a class potential? Is really the rogue just as good as a core mage with spells, "potentially"?
Is it true, basically, that "if the wizard can, a rogue can as well, better" ?
What about a Factotum?

The counter-argument would be.

- The wizard can also use scrolls, and has his own spells on top of that, so he's always going to have more magic available than the rogue.
- More magic tops any benefits the rogue has in BAB, skills, and class features
- More magic tops the ability to hide, and wizards can just as easily prevent divination, making it very difficult for the rogue to find them.
- Wizards have more ways to acquire excess gold than rogues do.

And honestly, if we're just using the metric "Anyone with enough gold can UMD his way to being better than a wizard, that's not limited solely to rogues. A relatively small investment in a +20 item and cross-class ranks will let you hit any DC in the game with any class in the game.

[LentilNinja]

Rogues don't really get much in the way of class features that let them acquire money in a particularly efficient way, and covering the entirety of the game is wealth by level.

Off topic but this annoyed me about Rogues. Here I was thinking their class features would assist them in aquiring wealthy items, stealing in combat, etc. but the best I can do is play Spellthief/Hellbreaker with Improved Disarm and maxing skills like Move Silently, Sleight of Hand, and the like. Sure they get more skill points than most but when technically another class could just do that too at a weaker modifier then it takes some of the appeal out.

[Necroticplague]

Off topic but this annoyed me about Rogues. Here I was thinking their class features would assist them in aquiring wealthy items, stealing in combat, etc. but the best I can do is play Spellthief/Hellbreaker with Improved Disarm and maxing skills like Move Silently, Sleight of Hand, and the like. Sure they get more skill points than most but when technically another class could just do that too at a weaker modifier then it takes some of the appeal out.

And realistically, thanks to the cap on skill points in one skill, having more points likely isn't a measure of how good you are in your skills, as it how many skills you can do.

[molten_dragon]

Off topic but this annoyed me about Rogues. Here I was thinking their class features would assist them in aquiring wealthy items, stealing in combat, etc. but the best I can do is play Spellthief/Hellbreaker with Improved Disarm and maxing skills like Move Silently, Sleight of Hand, and the like. Sure they get more skill points than most but when technically another class could just do that too at a weaker modifier then it takes some of the appeal out.

I've always thought rogues should get some gold at every level as a class feature, like an artificer's craft reserve. Basically to show the fact that they're picking pockets, or pulling heists, or running cons or, or keeping a little treasure back for themselves, or something in the background.

It might also solve some of the problems with certain rogues habitually trying to steal from the party.

[Coidzor]

and I've already said that you won, congratz.

I still want to someday make a rogue that can stab a wizard in the heart with an ordinary dagger and yell "WHERE IS YOUR ARCANE MAGIC NOW!?" as they bleed to death. :smallannoyed:

adversus solem ne loquitor. don't speak against the sun. Or something along those lines, anyway.

...You are aware that this is ostensibly a game we're talking about here, right? You don't actually get to murder anyone if you're doing it properly and if you do it wrong it's still not a wizard, it's one of your fellow players.

[Lord Raziere]

adversus solem ne loquitor. don't speak against the sun. Or something along those lines, anyway.

...You are aware that this is ostensibly a game we're talking about here, right? You don't actually get to murder anyone if you're doing it properly and if you do it wrong it's still not a wizard, it's one of your fellow players.

Sir, I find the insinuation that I cannot tell reality from fantasy insulting. when such distinction is incredibly easy. reality is mundane and mostly boring. fantasy is neither, and has things that shouldn't even be possible according to science.

I could ask the same thing about whether your aware or not that this game is not about wizards winning all the time, but I know that you know it isn't, so I'm not going to ask it as if to imply that you aren't, because that would be being a jerk.