Greek Based Game

[goldsteel]

Hey guys I'm wanting to do a Greek style game using 3.5 rules. (Since the Deities and Demigods book has the entire pantheon) My question is what classes should be allowed in this campaign or how should they be changed? I know the most the base classes would be fine except maybe the Paladin and Druid but I'm unsure. Also any monster suggestions would help, I want to keep this really close to Greek Mythology so I know things like Giants/Cyclops, Harpy, Minotaur, Leviathon, Naga, and Various Demons would be included any other good? Preferably lower leveled ones would be helpful.


Thanks in advance for any tips. =D

[Anxe]

Green Ronin published a book on how to run Greek mythos games called Trojan War. My campaign is Greek mythos based, so I use that occasionally. It has a few extra classes, feats, and new rules for armor.

Thing to keep in mind, the Greek myths had constant appearences from gods. Divine intervention should be common. Not every session, but not once a campaign either. PCs might also want to be children of gods.

Monsters aren't really restricted as much as you think. Most Greek monsters are combinations of other monsters. An owlbear is also a combo, so its fine. Trolls and ogres are just different vareities of giants or of Laestrigonians (spelling?). Undead fit fine into the Jason and the Argonauts movie too. Dragons show up in Jason as well.

Animal monsters should be more common. Dire, legendary, and the monster of legend template from Monsters of Faerun will give you lots of choices.

My campaign journal covers my Greek inspired campaign if you'd like to check out how my sessions work.

[goldsteel]

Green Ronin published a book on how to run Greek mythos games called Trojan War. My campaign is Greek mythos based, so I use that occasionally. It has a few extra classes, feats, and new rules for armor.

Thing to keep in mind, the Greek myths had constant appearences from gods. Divine intervention should be common. Not every session, but not once a campaign either. PCs might also want to be children of gods.

Monsters aren't really restricted as much as you think. Most Greek monsters are combinations of other monsters. An owlbear is also a combo, so its fine. Trolls and ogres are just different vareities of giants or of Laestrigonians (spelling?). Undead fit fine into the Jason and the Argonauts movie too. Dragons show up in Jason as well.

Animal monsters should be more common. Dire, legendary, and the monster of legend template from Monsters of Faerun will give you lots of choices.

My campaign journal covers my Greek inspired campaign if you'd like to check out how my sessions work.

Thanks man my original was to do the Child of gods thing but I have one player that's been a dm for a long time and won't do it. He says they'll be too powerful.

[Rhynn]

Nothing wrong with paladins and druids. Druids can easily be priests of Artemis, Dionysos, maybe Demeter, the Titaness Rhea, or dryads and other nature spirits. Paladins would be champions of LG deities like Athena.

Also, check out the free D&D retroclone Mazes & Minotaurs (http://mazesandminotaurs.free.fr/revised.html) for ideas.

[Jay R]

Hey guys I'm wanting to do a Greek style game using 3.5 rules. (Since the Deities and Demigods book has the entire pantheon) My question is what classes should be allowed in this campaign or how should they be changed? I know the most the base classes would be fine except maybe the Paladin and Druid but I'm unsure.

Certainly the bulk of PCs should be Fighters. Rogues might be likely (with Hermes as their god), but they would never take center stage. Archers are quite common.

If I were running it, I'd consider inventing a class called Hero, with Feats based on slaying individual monsters (Hercules, Theseus, Jason, Perseus, etc.), and another class called Warrior, more focused on battle wiles (Oddysseus, Hector, Agamemnon, etc.). I might also have an Archer class (Atalanta, Orion, Paris, etc.)

Medea and Circe were both witches, but offhand, I can't think of a spellcaster who wasn't evil, and somebody for the heroes to defeat. Pygmalion might qualify, although he didn't do much magic. But most of D&D magic is inappropriate for the genre. Transformational magic, on the other hand, is very common, which is why Ovid's book of mythological stories is named Metamorphoses.


Also any monster suggestions would help, I want to keep this really close to Greek Mythology so I know things like Giants/Cyclops, Harpy, Minotaur, Leviathon, Naga, and Various Demons would be included any other good? Preferably lower leveled ones would be helpful.

Gorgons, hydras, pegasi, centaurs, chimeras, manticores, satyrs, dryads, naiads, sirens, gryphons, etc.

Usually a single monster is terrorizing a village or country, and only a Great Hero can defeat it.

Also, Google is your friend. I typed in "Greek mythology monsters" and found this page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Greek_mythological_creatures) in about ten seconds. You're asking about a well-documented genre: use the work that's already out there.

[nyjastul69]

Sword and Sorcery Studios, the White Wolf d20 imprint, released Relics & Rituals: Olympus (http://index.rpg.net/display-entry.phtml?mainid=15190). I haven't looked at my copy in a while, but it might be of help to you.

[Jay R]

There was also a Rolemaster / Fantasy Hero version called Mythic Greece: The Age of Heroes, but it might be hard to get hold of, since it came out in 1988.

Amazon has used copies here (http://www.amazon.com/Mythic-Greece-Heroes-Rolemaster-Fantasy/dp/1558060022), starting at $22.57. But if you want one, hurry, since only two are available for less than $140.

[nyjastul69]

I know it's 2e, but Age of Heroes (http://tsr.bothgunsblazing.com/dd1/hr6.htm) might be useful to mine foe ideas.

[Anxe]

The Trojan War supplement covered children of gods really well. There's a separate race for them with three different levels of godhood (+0LA, +1LA, +2LA). You can also just use Assimar variants for children of gods.

The supplement also has a new base class called Dedicated Warrior. It's kind of a barbarian/paladin combo. The book has Odysseus and Hector as dedicated warriors.

I agree with the limitation of blasting magic. The book mirrors that opinion as well. The magic in Greek myths was largely transformative. The gods also made people invisible or charmed people. Nothing like a fireball spell. No easy way to get the feel for that, but you can just have a gentlemen's agreement with your players.

I'd also be tempted to swap out turning on a cleric for something else. Probably some sort of bonus for wearing medium or lighter armor. Heavy armor doesn't show up in Greek myths.

[Tetraplex]

Thanks man my original was to do the Child of gods thing but I have one player that's been a dm for a long time and won't do it. He says they'll be too powerful.

PCs tend to be more powerful than the average anyway, so suggest that he simply play the natural power balance up a bit. At most, a generous point buy is able to simulate demigods in the Greek traditions imo

[Airk]

I'd spin this completely the other way and basically say "martial type characters only" - yeah, a lot of supernatural stuff HAPPENS in Greek myth, but it pretty much NEVER happens as a result of the heroes praying or anything like that. Magic is the realm of the gods and the bad guys.

[Terraoblivion]

Leviathan is from the Old Testament and has a number of similarities with Tiamat from Babylonian mythology. Nagas are Indian. Demons are mostly based on the Key of Solomon. On the other hand, sphinxes are Greek rather than Egyptian. Sirens are similarly from the Odyssey. Most Greek monsters tend to be singular beings, though, and often ones that haven't really caught on with the general public.

Also, I have to question the wisdom of calling any Greek deity good, much less lawful good. Athena artificially prolonged the Trojan war by several years to punish Paris for not accepting her bribe in the beauty contest with Hera and Aphrodite. She also punished Medusa for the crime of getting raped by Poseidon and Arachne for being better at weaving than her. She's really kind of a self-centered, immature jerk like most of the rest of the Greek pantheon.

[Thrudd]

Nothing wrong with paladins and druids. Druids can easily be priests of Artemis, Dionysos, maybe Demeter, the Titaness Rhea, or dryads and other nature spirits. Paladins would be champions of LG deities like Athena.

Also, check out the free D&D retroclone Mazes & Minotaurs (http://mazesandminotaurs.free.fr/revised.html) for ideas.

I second "Mazes and Minotaurs", that's a fantastic game. It is an entirely Greek Classical world. It is not exactly a retroclone, either, it is an old-school style game but is tailored specifically for Greek myth inspired settings. All the PC's have a patron deity and are assumed to enjoy some amount of divine favor reflected by a Luck attribute. The Player's Companion also has rules for deities giving divine boons of different sorts.

[warty goblin]

I'd also be tempted to swap out turning on a cleric for something else. Probably some sort of bonus for wearing medium or lighter armor. Heavy armor doesn't show up in Greek myths.

That depends on the myth in question. A fairly large portion of the Iliad is spent describing the interactions of sharpened bronze, body armor, and the flesh beneath. The body armor is really the key variable in that relation; since it's made explicitly clear what spear and sword do to the human form when it is unprotected by armor, or the armor fails. Taking the historical perspective, by the later middle bronze age, the Mycenaean Greeks were capable of producing plate metal harness nearly as complete as medieval Europe achieved. Such stuff would however have been extremely rare, and most soldiers of that time would have been lucky to have a helmet.

[Rhynn]

Our Kiero is working on a historical Greek supplement (http://www.autarch.co/forums/general-discussion/should-i-be-turning-my-historical-hack-supplement) for ACKS (a D&D retroclone), with some great material posted so far about Greek polises and society.

[Anxe]

That depends on the myth in question. A fairly large portion of the Iliad is spent describing the interactions of sharpened bronze, body armor, and the flesh beneath. The body armor is really the key variable in that relation; since it's made explicitly clear what spear and sword do to the human form when it is unprotected by armor, or the armor fails. Taking the historical perspective, by the later middle bronze age, the Mycenaean Greeks were capable of producing plate metal harness nearly as complete as medieval Europe achieved. Such stuff would however have been extremely rare, and most soldiers of that time would have been lucky to have a helmet.

I always felt the armor perfectly matched with the PHB's description of Breastplate, a medium armor.

As for the Greek gods being not so good, I agree. The most common alignment for them is Chaos. Athena in LN in my campaign.
Most of the rapes in Greek mythos can be changed to consensual sex without impacting the stories. That might be for the best. I've found rape is a topic you should stay away from in D&D.

The unique monsters thing is easily dealt with as well. The monsters could have had children before they were slain by the previous heroes. Those children form the races and species of monsters if you ever use more than one. Or you could go with the Percy Jackson idea that monsters "respawn."

[Slipperychicken]

Also, I have to question the wisdom of calling any Greek deity good, much less lawful good. Athena artificially prolonged the Trojan war by several years to punish Paris for not accepting her bribe in the beauty contest with Hera and Aphrodite. She also punished Medusa for the crime of getting raped by Poseidon and Arachne for being better at weaving than her. She's really kind of a self-centered, immature jerk like most of the rest of the Greek pantheon.

I don't think it's at all appropriate to apply the D&D alignment system to Greek mythological figures. That is, you can't cleanly divide Greek myth into good guys and bad guys. The characters and their relationships are too complex and nuanced for the dualistic (good/evil) worldview espoused by D&D.

[Rhynn]

I don't think it's at all appropriate to apply the D&D alignment system to Greek mythological figures. That is, you can't cleanly divide Greek myth into good guys and bad guys. The characters and their relationships are too complex and nuanced for the dualistic (good/evil) worldview espoused by D&D.

I think the OD&D Law/Chaos alignment works much better; Olympians are Law, Titans are Chaos, bimbamboom, you've got yourself an alignment system. (Most people are Neutral because, even if they worship the Olympian gods, they wouldn't risk their lives to champion their cause.)

[Jay R]

I think the OD&D Law/Chaos alignment works much better; Olympians are Law, Titans are Chaos, bimbamboom, you've got yourself an alignment system. (Most people are Neutral because, even if they worship the Olympian gods, they wouldn't risk their lives to champion their cause.)

If Hera is Lawful, then Zeus isn't, because he consistently violates her rules.

[Rhynn]

If Hera is Lawful, then Zeus isn't, because he consistently violates her rules.

It's not about rules and laws (Lawful characters can violate and ignore laws and rules), it's about a cosmic dichotomy and struggle: Zeus is especially lawful, because his battle with Typhon represents the battle of new order with primordial chaos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_%28cosmogony%29#Chaoskampf). The Olympians represent civilization and humanity, the Titans represent the primordial, untamed, and hostile world that seeks to encroach on civilization and ruin its order.

[Red Fel]

I don't think it's at all appropriate to apply the D&D alignment system to Greek mythological figures. That is, you can't cleanly divide Greek myth into good guys and bad guys. The characters and their relationships are too complex and nuanced for the dualistic (good/evil) worldview espoused by D&D.


I think the OD&D Law/Chaos alignment works much better; Olympians are Law, Titans are Chaos, bimbamboom, you've got yourself an alignment system. (Most people are Neutral because, even if they worship the Olympian gods, they wouldn't risk their lives to champion their cause.)

I'd take it a step further and use more classical Greek literary concepts. Rather than Good or Evil - because even the most benevolent deities had vicious cruel and vindictive streaks - or Law and Chaos - because even the wise and mighty Zeus engaged in random acts of self-indulgent lust - you could give them something more appropriate.

Start with the two core alignments: Deuteragonistes and Antagonistes. These describe a person's actions relative to the actor. Basically, Antagonistes is one acting in opposition to you; Deuteragonistes would be a "secondary" (to the actor) character who is not Antagonistes. For example, say Thermistocles is walking along a river, as he is wont to do, when he is confronted by a naiad. Thermistocles, being a profound philosopher, has levels in Cleric, and uses Detect Antagonistes. The naiad does not ping; Thermistocles realizes she bears him no hostile intent. (She may intend to kill off a group of fishermen downstream, or seduce Thermistocles aggressively; but she's not hostile.)

Obviously, we can't use Protagonistes, because the actor is always the Protagonist in his own story.

Next, we need a secondary metric. I would suggest, if we're using the terminology of drama, "Focal" and "Supporting." Focal characters play an active, major role in the plot - they exert force on the world around them. Supporting characters play a more passive role, and the world exerts force on them. In alignment terms, this is the difference between a character who decides to be the change he wants to see in the world, and a character who simply acts on what fate has decreed for him. They don't translate literally - not every BBEG is Focal (but most are, given the nature of BBEGs), and not every NPC is Supporting.

Thus, you may have Focal Deuteragonistes (strong, independent but non-hostile characters), Supporting Deuteragonistes (your typical NPC), Focal Antagonistes (actively hostile characters, such as BBEGs) and Supporting Antagonistes (passively hostile characters, such as random encounters or obstructive bureaucrats) as alignments.

Again, these alignments are all relative to the actor, in this case the PCs. This can even vary between them - a Centaur might be Focal Antagonistes towards the party Cleric (he doesn't like deep thinkers and actively seeks to kill them) but Supporting Deuteragonistes towards the party Fighter (he tolerates the presence of strength in the weak human race).

Just an idea off the top of my head. You say Greek drama, I say a bunch of literary terminology.

[Rhynn]

I'd take it a step further and use more classical Greek literary concepts.

Oh, sure, just show off your actual understanding & knowledge of the subject matter! :smallmad: :smallamused:

[Slipperychicken]

Detect Antagonistes. The naiad does not ping; Thermistocles realizes she bears him no hostile intent. (She may intend to kill off a group of fishermen downstream, or seduce Thermistocles aggressively; but she's not hostile.)


This reminds me a lot of the ACKS version of detect evil. It just detect whether the target(s) have hostile intentions toward the caster.

[DMVerdandi]

Have the spell casters be philosophers. Each spell casting style has a dogma behind it. Perhaps change the names of some of the classes but the functions are completely fine.

Wizard=Sophist (which is basically the same word ironically. A wise person.)
Have them as your Atomist Materialists. They believe magic itself is the highest state of being, and the magician is trying to attain that by scientific study.


Archivist=Theist
They instead study the shape and forms of deities, thinking them the highest form of existence. Reading prayers, writing them themselves, and researching the truth behind miracles.

Artificer
KEEP AS IS.

No sorcerers, no clerics. No favored souls. Those who do not choose the path are not chosen. Have the gifts bestowed by gods in the form of magic items, or perhaps demigod status.



A good way of starting missions is being ordered by the ecclesia (assembly) to go and solve a problem.

[Red Fel]

Have the spell casters be philosophers.

So... Dungeons (http://dresdencodak.com/2006/12/03/dungeons-and-discourse/) and (http://dresdencodak.com/2009/01/27/advanced-dungeons-and-discourse/) Discourse (http://dndis.wikidot.com/)?