Vampire Druid?

[DireSickFish]

I'm DMing a game and am going to have the party run into a Dwarven Mushroom and Roth farmer. I want to make the Dwarf a vampire with a few vampire spawn daughters. Can I make him also be a druid? It seems a bit counter intuitive to be undead and a druid. I also don't want to set a bad president for them.

[TandemChelipeds]

1: I don't think druids have a president.
2: Go for the "vampires are apex predators" angle. Vampires are a bit different from most undead in that they have a pretty clearly-defined ecological role. Therefore, they aren't really that anathema to nature, even if the force that keeps them "alive" is unnatural.

[Phelix-Mu]

I'm DMing a game and am going to have the party run into a Dwarven Mushroom and Roth farmer. I want to make the Dwarf a vampire with a few vampire spawn daughters. Can I make him also be a druid? It seems a bit counter intuitive to be undead and a druid. I also don't want to set a bad president for them.

It only seems counter-intuitive because druids are generally highly stereotyped into treehuggers or primal avengers of nature. The fact is that "balance" and "natural" as they exist in D&D are much more fluid and hard to qualify than the stereotypes suggest. A vampire may view it's position as the balance to living lifeforms such as humans that tend to expand and expand without limit, given time and resources.

Also, the npc may have been a druid before becoming a vampire. Turning may have little or no impact on the views of the druid, they just now accept a bit more evil in the mix of actions that they deem acceptable in pursuit of their cause.

One of the antagonists in a long-running campaign of mine was an elven druid that was turned into a vampire by his lover. Since then, he had taken up a position as a long-term guardian of an entire subcontinent, trying to foil the efforts of the cabal of vampires led by his now ex-lover. Great for intrigue and confusion among the party members, who were used to being druid-friendly and vampire-unfriendly.

[VoxRationis]

Undead are the antithesis of expanding and reproducing without limit. Their very being violates the laws of thermodynamics themselves. Even high-level wizards and blighters don't do that just by existing in a spot. A vampire makes another of itself every time it feeds, which is ridiculous. While a similar creature with similar sentient-hunting, blood-sucking behaviors could be seen as a predator that keeps humanoids in check, the vampire as it stands is not such a creature.
The fact of the matter is that druids have every reason to hate undead and that people who tell you to ignore fluff on what druids believe basically want to be able to wild shape without having to role-play.

[TandemChelipeds]

Undead are the antithesis of expanding and reproducing without limit. Their very being violates the laws of thermodynamics themselves. Even high-level wizards and blighters don't do that just by existing in a spot. A vampire makes another of itself every time it feeds, which is ridiculous. While a similar creature with similar sentient-hunting, blood-sucking behaviors could be seen as a predator that keeps humanoids in check, the vampire as it stands is not such a creature.
The fact of the matter is that druids have every reason to hate undead and that people who tell you to ignore fluff on what druids believe basically want to be able to wild shape without having to role-play.

Thermodynamics are irrelevant. Druids don't know about thermodynamics, and they violate them all the time by wildshaping anyway. This really has far more to do with whether a druid could rationalize their vampiric nature as something acceptable than whether or not it actually is natural. It's common in fiction for vampires to view themselves as predators, and I imagine a druid in the grips of cognitive dissonance wouldn't keep questioning themselves once they found an easy out like that; the instinct, when faced with an internal conflict, is to grapple wildly for whatever answer one can find and make a point of ignoring any holes in the answer's logic. And since druids are all about instinct, I imagine that's exactly what a druid would do.

When you say "fluff", you wouldn't mean official fluff, would you? I hardly see any significance in it. The default fluff for DnD is pretty poorly-thought-out anyway.

EDIT: And since when have druids believed in unlimited expansion and reproduction? Doesn't that violate the laws of thermodynamics too? It seems a bit hypocritical to me that they'd hate undead for doing exactly what they espouse.

[Larkas]

I'd also overplay the predatory side of the vampire druid. He could be aware of his unnatural status, and even know that he doesn't have a place in the natural world, but he could be an exemplar of predation, not unlike that TN gold dragon druid in FR is the paragon of renewal. Predation, after all, fosters evolution and adaptation. Furthermore, he could see himself as responsible for upholding that side of nature for as long as he's allowed to "live", not unlike those good-aligned liches. He would probably refrain from creating spawns or fellow vampires, though, most likely using his attacks to drain most of a creature's Con and then finish it off using other forms of killing. Or maybe undergoing some ritual to rid himself off of his spawn-creating attacks, at least temporarily. He would most likely relish the blood of sentients that seek to tear the natural world down.


The fact of the matter is that druids have every reason to hate undead and that people who tell you to ignore fluff on what druids believe basically want to be able to wild shape without having to role-play.

Yeah, always swear by the stock fluff. It's totally conducive to the most fun, engaging and original stories you can tell. Not to mention it's very internally consistent! :smalltongue: Seriously now, other druids don't have to accept or even refrain from destroying this vampire. It doesn't mean he can't be an honest-to-goodness druid who really believes he is upholding Nature's cause in his own way. Likewise, this also means he can predate on fellow druids. This even makes sense: he could believe this behavior could foster the appearance of stronger and tougher defenders of Nature.

[Lonely Tylenol]

If you allow the vampire to retain the law-neutral-chaos aspect of its alignment, it is feasible to have a Neutral X druid turn into a Neutral Evil druid vampire. If, however, you are using older vampire templates, such as the 3.0 vampire, their alignment becomes chaotic evil upon being turned into a vampire, and thus they can no longer be druids (since neither component of their alignment is neutral).

[Larkas]

If you allow the vampire to retain the law-neutral-chaos aspect of its alignment, it is feasible to have a Neutral X druid turn into a Neutral Evil druid vampire. If, however, you are using older vampire templates, such as the 3.0 vampire, their alignment becomes chaotic evil upon being turned into a vampire, and thus they can no longer be druids (since neither component of their alignment is neutral).

True, but it doesn't mean they can't re-qualify later by changing their alignment after turning (striving to find balance, or what have you).

[eggynack]

The fact of the matter is that druids have every reason to hate undead and that people who tell you to ignore fluff on what druids believe basically want to be able to wild shape without having to role-play.
Nah, necro-druids are sweet. A quick list of some of my current necro-druid tools are: myconid sovereign (MM II, 154) or yellow musk creeper (FF, 190) form for nifty plant zombies, ghost companion (Ghost, 53) plus aspect of the wolf (SpC, 16) to turn yourself into a ghost for days, blackwater tentacle (Storm, 114) or sporebat summoning (FF, 161) for the negative level half of the wightpocalypse, animate with the spirit (CV, 52) for a reasonably strong lesser planar ally/animate dead hybrid, and a bunch of nifty spells with some necromantic flavor (I like blizzard+blood snow). The fact of the matter is, if you think you can't do something with a druid, it's likely that you're not being creative enough.

[VoxRationis]

When you say "fluff", you wouldn't mean official fluff, would you? I hardly see any significance in it. The default fluff for DnD is pretty poorly-thought-out anyway.

EDIT: And since when have druids believed in unlimited expansion and reproduction? Doesn't that violate the laws of thermodynamics too? It seems a bit hypocritical to me that they'd hate undead for doing exactly what they espouse.

If someone replaces fluff in the process of creating their own coherent setting, that's fine. But it's in there for a reason, and ignoring it for mechanical advantage is one of the hallmarks of munchkinism. If fluff were completely unimportant, you would play an abstract game, like Go or Checkers.
And I don't know where you think I said druids believed in unlimited expansion and reproduction. Scratch that; I see it. That was really boneheaded of me. I see my problem.
I meant to say "Vampires are the epitome of expanding and reproducing without limit," in response to the earlier comment that they prevented humanoids from overpopulating.

[Lonely Tylenol]

True, but it doesn't mean they can't re-qualify later by changing their alignment after turning (striving to find balance, or what have you).

If they, themselves, are not the thralls of more powerful vampires, or have ascended to vampire lords (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20021018a), certainly.

[Larkas]

If they, themselves, are not the thralls of more powerful vampires, or have ascended to vampire lords (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20021018a), certainly.

That could actually make for a fine story: a vampire breaks from thralldom and seeks balance. More and more he sees it in the ways of his previous life and, by embracing Nature in all its predatory glory, achieves a semblance of inner peace and reconnects with his previous experiences - even if through very different lenses. His focus might be another, but his mission is the same.

(Just to clear things up, you meant to say that, by becoming a vampire lord, an ex-druid could automatically achieve a a valid alignment, right?)

[Lonely Tylenol]

(Just to clear things up, you meant to say that, by becoming a vampire lord, an ex-druid could automatically achieve a a valid alignment, right?)

Precisely:


Alignment: Any evil. In the transformation from vampire to vampire lord, the creature recovers the Law-Neutral-Chaos bent of the original creature. Thus, a Lawful Neutral monk who becomes a vampire turns Chaotic Evil, and when it becomes a vampire lord it turns Lawful Evil.

[DireSickFish]

Ah, the whole apex predator thing wouldn't really work with this character. He is responsible for a large underground Mushroom and Roth farm that helps support the Dwarven Fortess/Mine (which is mostly underground). The fort is currently back on its heels from a demon attack of monsterious proportions. They have already lost the mines and half there population. I've got the mines all mapped out for the players to explore and am trying to add interesting encounters.

I thought having this Dwarven farmer that lives on the outskirts would give him the power to be able to fend off the demons and he'd explain to the party that he lost most his farmhands and that the demons don't seem to think this outskirts cave is important. In reality he's gotten really hungry and eaten some of his farmhands and lost the rest to demons. He'll have a few vampire spawn posing as his daughters. So when the party shows up he's rather hungry, what with being cut off from the city and his food source.

The being a druid is really secondary to the character int his instance. I was just thinking what would be a good class for a mushroom farmer. But he could be a fighter or ranger easily enough. Him being a druid would just make the caring for the vast mushroom field and dealing with animals easier. Mainting a balance of underground food, so that the Dwarves stay well fed with-ought depleting the natural resources and he in turn stays fed off the city.

[VoxRationis]

What do the mushrooms eat? Are they just a glorified waste disposal system for the city?

[DireSickFish]

What do the mushrooms eat? Are they just a glorified waste disposal system for the city?

Roth poop. I'm also thinking of having other mushroom areas in the underdark he can say he takes the Roths too during the winter or something. But mushrooms gorowing underground to large sizes with-ought sufficient nutrients is sort of built into the ecology of the underdark already. So that doesn't really need much explaining.

Oh and they aren't the fungoids, just different kinds of edible mushrooms.

[VoxRationis]

Vampire issues aside, the druid should definitely have a problem with an ecosystem consisting entirely of heterotrophs with no primary producers. You can't have a mushroom-based ecosystem; they aren't just plants that grow in the shade.

[DireSickFish]

Vampire issues aside, the druid should definitely have a problem with an ecosystem consisting entirely of heterotrophs with no primary producers. You can't have a mushroom-based ecosystem; they aren't just plants that grow in the shade.

I'm aware, but the underdark already makes no sense how they could have enough food for say a drow city. Roth are underdark cows, who really shouldn't have enough food to survive. And the underdark is filled with all sorts of large scary monsters. Muschrooms as a hand wave food source is better than most explanations for how all this underground stuff works. I almost didn't include the underdark at all in my campaign world, but then I wouldn't have Beholders and I just couldn't accept that.

[Phelix-Mu]

Vampire issues aside, the druid should definitely have a problem with an ecosystem consisting entirely of heterotrophs with no primary producers. You can't have a mushroom-based ecosystem; they aren't just plants that grow in the shade.

I'm all for involving a bit of biology in a given druid's outlook, but I think you are overextending the need for that component in the druid ethos. Many druids aren't necessarily for what's "natural" as much as they are for keeping things the way they are, in an idealized sense. "Balance" usually has aspects of avoiding radical changes or things that completely replace other things. The concept of protecting the balance really encompasses a huge series of viewpoints, specifically because there is so much subjectivity found in the areas between the various extremes of alignment. One druid might think that the drow should stop rampaging around the Underdark and upsetting the other races and so forth. Another might not care, seeing the drow as just another cog in the machine that drives events deep below the surface; as long as the drow don't totally jeopardize everything, they are simply another force to be tallied in the calculation of the balance.

And, just so, some druids might view certain undead as "natural," as they do occasionally naturally crop up in the world (like a person that spontaneously rises as a ghost for some reason...that's always going to happen, always has happened...hard to consider such phenomena as unnatural). As long as a few undead aren't spreading wightpocalypse or the like, their presence may be tolerable. After all, negative energy is also a part of the Prime; druids don't hunt down clerics for abusing positive energy, so they might also rationalize not having to track down every manifestation of negative energy.

That's just my take on it, ofc. Druids in my world come from a wide variety of perspectives and don't all necessarily agree on means or ends. Unless they are part of a conclave or circle, then no one can really force a given druid to be one way or the other anyway.

[TandemChelipeds]

I'll also chime in and say that druids don't know science. They might understand that there is a system to nature, but they don't understand it in the kind of detail we do today. We know the mechanics of what distinguishes a plant's biology from a fungus'. Druids don't. In the DnD world, fungi work like plants that grow in the dark, and that's how it's always been. To a druid, that's natural, even though to us it's impossible. Their entire frame of reference is a world where everything gets its energy from nothing. To them, a world like ours where nature has clearly-defined limits would be unbelievable.

[MonochromeTiger]

I'm all for involving a bit of biology in a given druid's outlook, but I think you are overextending the need for that component in the druid ethos. Many druids aren't necessarily for what's "natural" as much as they are for keeping things the way they are, in an idealized sense. "Balance" usually has aspects of avoiding radical changes or things that completely replace other things. The concept of protecting the balance really encompasses a huge series of viewpoints, specifically because there is so much subjectivity found in the areas between the various extremes of alignment. One druid might think that the drow should stop rampaging around the Underdark and upsetting the other races and so forth. Another might not care, seeing the drow as just another cog in the machine that drives events deep below the surface; as long as the drow don't totally jeopardize everything, they are simply another force to be tallied in the calculation of the balance.

And, just so, some druids might view certain undead as "natural," as they do occasionally naturally crop up in the world (like a person that spontaneously rises as a ghost for some reason...that's always going to happen, always has happened...hard to consider such phenomena as unnatural). As long as a few undead aren't spreading wightpocalypse or the like, their presence may be tolerable. After all, negative energy is also a part of the Prime; druids don't hunt down clerics for abusing positive energy, so they might also rationalize not having to track down every manifestation of negative energy.

That's just my take on it, ofc. Druids in my world come from a wide variety of perspectives and don't all necessarily agree on means or ends. Unless they are part of a conclave or circle, then no one can really force a given druid to be one way or the other anyway.

this actually summarizes my view on it as well, personally I feel that the whole "druids want balance and so they hate undead" thing is a very badly thought out argument. undeath and negative energy are technically part of nature, maybe not a cute and cuddly part that everyone likes but they are part of the being of the universe in the same way that life and positive energy are, many undead occur naturally without necromancers having to go from graveyard to graveyard looking for a new bestest friend.
people can bring up how vampires for instance tend to spread vampirism when they're around, clearly creating more undead qualifies as a horrible violation of nature that requires immediate righting, never mind the fact that living creatures seek to constantly create more of their type too and it's just a different way of doing so. never mind the fact that "balance" ceases to be a fitting term if you pick and choose which parts of the whole actually count as being on the scales.

it's like star wars, they went on and on about balance in the force and how it was going to be achieved and all the good guys were happy about it. but actual balance means both sides are even, not evil being gone. if a druid is truly meant to keep nature going as normal and keep some semblance of balance they should at least be smart enough to know that it's not a matter of personal preference.

[Spore]

How is negative energy natural? Have you seen any negative energy deriving from druid spells lately? I am sure there are a few exceptions but I'd like to know them.

But what I would LOVE to see is a "mushroom zombie" like eggynack mentioned. The Dwarf and his family have been taken over by highly intelligent mushrooms and are just very well adapted living "plants".

[TandemChelipeds]

How is negative energy natural? Have you seen any negative energy deriving from druid spells lately? I am sure there are a few exceptions but I'd like to know them.

I think what is meant is that negative energy exists in accordance with the natural laws of the setting. Druids may not work with it, but then, do you see them doing anything with positive energy? By your logic, if they're obligated to destroy undead, they're just as obligated to exterminate ordinary life, since the force that powers it is also outside the scope of their powers.

Really, the entire concept of druids is a mess. The definition of "nature" as it applies to druids is vague and arbitrary.

[Mnemnosyne]

There's a feat in Libris Mortis, corrupted wild shape, which specifically gives undead the ability to wildshape. It has been rendered unnecessary due to wild shape errata (at the time, wildshape was based on polymorph, which specifies a living target; it's now based on alternate form which does not have that restriction) but its existence is conclusive evidence of a relatively clear precedent by both RAW and RAI of undead druids' existence. Granted, the feat doesn't specify druids, but wild shape is generally always associated with them, even if there are a couple ways to gain access to the ability other than being a druid.

[Vhaidara]

Here's an idea: Vampires are intelligent. "Always Evil" means, IIRC, that 90% of them are evil. Yes, he may have become evil upon being turned, but since changed.
Let's repeat: Negative Energy != Evil.

[Sian]

How is negative energy natural?

How is Positive energy natural? 'nature' aren't all sunshine and rainbows as much as some would like to believe

[atemu1234]

Vampire druids can exist, because nothing specifically says that they can't. They would be NE, because they must have a neutral component of their alignment, and they (theoretically) would stay fundamentally the same. Personality-wise, they'd probably love predators, because they are now a predator.

[Phelix-Mu]

The Prime is composed of elements and energies drawn from all of the Inner Planes, of which both the Positive and Negative Energy Planes are part, last time I checked. "Life" and "nature" exist somewhere in the balance between the two energy planes, both growing and proliferating (Positive), as well as dying and decaying (Negative). Some druids might well believe that the existence of spontaneously formed undead (which is pretty much a part of the setting) is a basis for not going all crusader v undead. Obviously, undead that spread in geometric or exponential fashion don't count, because undeath doesn't function by the same restricting principles as life (like a population reaching saturation and then dying off en masse...that pretty much doesn't happen to, let's say, shadows). Sentient undead can be problematic, but usually only because they can be obsessed with spreading something bad for the balance (like more undead, or ending all life). The sentient living are also problematic, so it really is a matter of perspective.

Again, even in my world, not all druids share this view. Some of them go all sunbeam-y when the undead start shambling around. But some don't. As in many things, it takes all kinds.

[Yawgmoth]

1: I don't think druids have a president.
Sure they do. They're elected primarily through grassroots campaigns and leaflets.

[VoxRationis]

I'm aware, but the underdark already makes no sense how they could have enough food for say a drow city. Roth are underdark cows, who really shouldn't have enough food to survive. And the underdark is filled with all sorts of large scary monsters. Muschrooms as a hand wave food source is better than most explanations for how all this underground stuff works. I almost didn't include the underdark at all in my campaign world, but then I wouldn't have Beholders and I just couldn't accept that.

I actually came up with a solution for this. If you assume that the area of the Underdark was once highly volcanic but has a reduced volcanic activity today, and that the caves are thus mostly lava tubes rather than limestone, water-carved caverns, you can have a series of geothermal vents with tube-worm analogues acting as chemosynthetic producers. Since tube worms are animals rather than plants, this also explains how so many creatures in the Underdark are carnivorous, and how they're all there and preying on the party: their normal diet are the primary producers, but the flesh of adventurers works just as well. This can of course be supplemented by "windfall" from the surface world.

[Ason]

I'm pretty sure the Pathfinder module Ashes at Dawn from the Carrion Crown adventure path has a vampire druid (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/unique-monsters/cr-12/merrick-sais).
Personally, I'm curious whether a vampire druid could use her blood drain ability while wild shaped. That could make a wild shape druid even more deadly and make it much easier for the vampire to feed.

[eggynack]

Personally, I'm curious whether a vampire druid could use her blood drain ability while wild shaped. That could make a wild shape druid even more deadly and make it much easier for the vampire to feed.
I don't think so, no. Blood drain is an Ex special attack, after all, and one not derived from class levels at that. Wild shape loses those.

[TandemChelipeds]

Vampire druids can exist, because nothing specifically says that they can't. They would be NE, because they must have a neutral component of their alignment, and they (theoretically) would stay fundamentally the same. Personality-wise, they'd probably love predators, because they are now a predator.

You can have evil druids. The alignment isn't the issue, the nature of the undead is.

[Komatik]

(Just to clear things up, you meant to say that, by becoming a vampire lord, an ex-druid could automatically achieve a a valid alignment, right?)

Precisely

It is unnecessary - the law-chaos axis doesn't change with the original template either:


Alignment
Always evil (any).

Also, I'd like to plug my template :P

[Clistenes]

You could use the Wasteland Druid PrC from AEG's Undead book. Those are NE druids who become twisted and are all about undead. They shapechange into Undead instead of Animals and Elementals. It would be completely natural for one of them to become a Vampire.

[Sebastrd]

I love the idea of a vampire druid fungus farmer. I'm totally stealing it someday, so thanks for sharing. Eggynack's spell list is fantastic, as well.

[eggynack]

Eggynack's spell list is fantastic, as well.
Glad ya like it. The idea of a necromancer druid has been a bit of a pet project of mine for awhile now, as something of a subset of broader druid research. The only issue with the plan is that it doesn't use any build resources, so the whole thing is missing some deeper level of thematic coherence. As a solution to that issue, I've occasionally proposed making use of a similarly odd archetype that has interesting build resources and basically no spell resources, which is the aberration themed druid. That half's as simple as picking up aberration wild shape, and maybe assume supernatural ability if you want to cheese things out a bit. Incidentally, while aberration wild shape is both more expensive, and likely less good, than other form adding feats, there is enough in the way of forms to make the feat viable without assume supernatural ability.

[Komatik]

The druid zombie plans have the annoying problem that plant zombies aren't permanent :/
Myconid Sovereign seems better for that than yellow musk creeper at least.

[eggynack]

The druid zombie plans have the annoying problem that plant zombies aren't permanent :/
Myconid Sovereign seems better for that than yellow musk creeper at least.
Yeah, I definitely like the myconid sovereign version more. It just offers what I believe to be easier to access and more complete control, for a longer duration. Yellow musk creeper important to mention, however, because you can summon one at 7th level. I'm not sure what happens to the plant zombies after the summons go poof, or after you stop being the creature in question, for that matter, but it's certainly an interesting set of tricks. I mean, no matter what you do, druids are pretty much never going to be the best necromancers unless you're pulling tricks from outside your class. You can be halfway competent though, and that's pretty good for an archetype that seems so intrinsically contradictory.

[atemu1234]

You can have evil druids. The alignment isn't the issue, the nature of the undead is.

I addressed that. In the first part of it. They exist simply because they aren't specifically said not to be.

[DireSickFish]

Thanks for the input. I'm going to go with a Ranger instead of a Druid for this encounter. This is supposed to be a minor event not related to the main campaign plot so I don't want it to be a distraction. I think to do the idea justice it would need to be either the main thrust of a campaign or at the very least a multi session adventure. With druid liches and/or vampires combating with the "traditional" druid circle and the PC's getting caught in between. I'll have to stash this away for later use. Thanks again!