[3.5P E6] Balancing the Saint template

[Lonely Tylenol]

One thing that I have found myself able to do to advance end-game power in my long-running E6 game is to award templates as situational awards. In fact, some time ago (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?250972-3-5P-E6-Neutering-the-Shade-Shadow-Dark-Templates-(my-players-VAMOOSE)), I came to you guys here with questions on how to balance out the Dark Creature, Shadow Creature, and Shade templates for a player for my E6 game. Now, I've got another end-game award for another player at the table: the Saint template.

The Saint template is for a Vow of Poverty Monk (NOTE: this is not a conversation about VoP Monks). Actually, he is a CG Monk 2/Barbarian 2/Battledancer 1/Fist of the Forest 1, with Monks houseruled to have full Base Attack Bonus. The player has met all the mechanical and role-playing requirements of the Saint template (so this isn't so much a freebie as it is a carrot for continued devotion to not taking the easy way out).

The biggest concern that I have is that, while the Saint template is a fitting reward for such a character (and an effective way to balance out the VoP mundane aspect of the build), the Saint template itself is a bit... Much. Especially for E6. The template was definitely balanced around the idea that it comes into play late in the game, and the Protective Aura (Su) underscores that point in particular.

A 6th-level Saint gets the following:
- Outsider (native) type
- WIS to AC
- Holy Power
- Holy Touch
- Guidance, Resistance, Virtue, and Bless at-will (CL 6)
- DR 5/magic
- Fast healing 3
- Immunity to acid, cold, electricity, and petrification
- Low-light vision
- Darkvision 60ft.
- Protective Aura
- Resistance to fire 10
- +4 to saves against poison
- Tongues always-on (CL 14)
- +2 CON, +2 WIS, +4 CHA

The things that I find most disconcerting about this are the Protective Aura (which is a double-strength Magic Circle Against Evil and Globe of Lesser Invulnerability, always-on, reusable as a free action), fast healing, and blanket immunities to almost all elements, which, combined, shut down a great deal of encounters single-handedly, and take the emphasis off everyone else. I originally thought to just replace all of these abilities with the energy resistances and spell resistance of the Celestial Creature (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/celestialCreature.htm) template (or the Half-Celestial (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfCelestial.htm) template), but all told, this feels a little underwhelming, and doesn't really give the player options.

The other option that I'm seeing, which doesn't completely remove the power of the Saint template but instead shifts the focus, is to add a resource pool to the class (such as Faith points, from Complete Divine, or Turn Undead), and key critical abilities to that. For instance, I could key the Protective Aura to turn undead (spend a turn undead attempt to gain the Protective Aura ability with a duration of concentration, maximum CHA mod rounds), and replace the fast healing with the Healing Devotion feat (which would give finite out-of-combat healing and unconscious healing, but free not in-combat healing); or, I could give free access to the Faith feats Pious Defense and Pious Soul (Complete Divine, p. 86), and have the Protective Aura ability cost 1 Faith point per round to maintain, so that it remains a character-defining trump card without being completely campaign-ending (and the player has the choice of when to use it).

All told, though, I'm kind of at a loss for how to do it. I have ideas, but no real concrete direction with which to go at it.

What would you do to properly balance this situation out?

[Adverb]

So, if I were playing such a character in such a game, I would probably be pleased with getting just (Tongues, fire resistance, petrification immunity, +con/wis/cha, +saves v. poison) and not the rest.

Past that, how much power are you looking to hand out? Holy Power is good without being gamebreaking. Holy Touch + Stunning Fist = ow.

+Wis to AC *again* for a Monk is a Thing, and AC still matters unless your players are always under Displacement or something.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Well, I'm willing to dole out a lot of the actual power of the Saint; I just want to avoid things that completely change the paradigm of what is a reasonable challenge for the players. For this reason, the blanket immunities and the Protective Aura are what scare me the most: immunities to three elements of damage (in addition to the myriad other defenses that he has, from this and otherwise).

To put things in perspective: I currently have seven players in the game. One is a Divine Minion Master of Many Forms, one is a Shadowcaster (+Dark/Shadow/Shade templates, having essentially reached her capstone), and one is Mythic (Pathfinder rules). Not counting the Monk, the other three either have powerful builds or are still unlocking their potential. The Monk is perhaps the weakest of the seven (in particular because--oh, I forgot to mention this--he's blind), but strongest at the one thing he does do: gets in someone's face, and is nigh impossible to move.

I guess a play-by-play would help (spoilered for length):

- Outsider (native) type: I think I will honestly leave this up to the player. It really only affects Charm vs. Enlarge for him.
- WIS to AC: This, combined with the ability bonuses, will bring his AC up to 37 (6 from Vow of Poverty, 3 from DEX, 5 from CON, 8 from WIS, 4 from CHA, and 1 Natural Armor), but honestly, I'm OK with this. It's the thing his character is specializing in: it should be very high.
- Holy Power: This would improve the DC to 19 on his Stunning Fist, which he gets three times per day. I don't think any other abilities benefit from it, making it essentially Ability Focus for Stunning Fist, which I'm OK with.
- Holy Touch: A thematic, situational minor bonus. It won't define his build, but it will provide a nice extra when the group fights undead or demons.
- Guidance, Resistance, Virtue, and Bless at-will (CL 6): I'm actually recommending he use Guidance whenever he's doing something that doesn't require haste, because something done right is better than something done quickly. We'll see how these pan out.
- DR 5/magic: I equate this, basically, to Holy Touch, except that it also won't matter often, since he seldom gets touched.
- Fast healing 3: I'm sketchy about this, since it basically makes his hit points a per-encounter resource and I'm generally against that sort of thing, but I do like the idea of him at least having some sort of healing (aside from Stigmata, which heals others). If I get rid of the fast healing, I'll replace it with some analogue.
- Immunity to acid, cold, electricity, and petrification: I don't like blanket immunities, but I am fine with these being resistance 10 to all, and letting him have immunity to petrification.
- Low-light vision
- Darkvision 60ft. Blind.
- Protective Aura: This is easily the most broken part of the entire template, at least for E6. I am fine with this existing as an ability, because it's such a distinct (and relatively unique) aspect of the template, but I want it to be a last-ditch ability that you want to save in your back pocket for climactic situations, rather than something that's "always-on", as it currently is. If it exists, I want it to be heavily nerfed.
- Resistance to fire 10: I am OK with this. It can be acquired elsewhere for others, but not for him.
- +4 to saves against poison: His Fortitude saves are already good. Poisons are bad. Why not?
- Tongues always-on (CL 14): I'm fine with this, but might drop the CL down a bit, so that it can be reasonably dispelled, if it comes down to that.
- +2 CON, +2 WIS, +4 CHA: This gives him +6 HP, +4 AC (untyped, bringing him to the total above), +1 to two of his saves, better skill bonuses, and bonuses to his Stunning Fist DC, and that's about it. There's no reason to take this away from him.

I'm fine with higher power being given out (especially since he's chosen a set of options that are low-floor-low-ceiling), but I just don't want that power to be world-breaking. The group knows the location of a CR 16 mature adult green dragon who nearly snuffed half the party in a single breath during their first probing, and his character, with the Saint template unmolested, could just fly in solo and kill this dragon, because it had too many blanket immunities and protections that made it untouchable. That's all I am really aiming to tweak here.

[Adverb]

If I had a player who'd earned outsider (native) through Monk 20 or Saint (not just an Aasimar or something), I'd probably make it work like Powerful Build, in that for each effect, the character is considered whichever would be better - original type, or outsider.

I think your suggestion is pretty good. No PA, no energy immunities. Depending on party balance, I might give some energy resistance now and more later?

How do you feel about fast healing only below half HP, like Dragon Shamans? Or DR 3/-, which adds resilience but doesn't make recovery free. Or maybe an increased heal rate for ability damage, like 1/hour? Goes nice with Stigmata.

[Lonely Tylenol]

If I had a player who'd earned outsider (native) through Monk 20 or Saint (not just an Aasimar or something), I'd probably make it work like Powerful Build, in that for each effect, the character is considered whichever would be better - original type, or outsider.

How do you feel about fast healing only below half HP, like Dragon Shamans?

I like these suggestions in particular! :smallsmile:

I'll put them to the player and see what he thinks.

Thanks! Keep them coming, everyone (and by everyone, I mean just Adverb right now, but hopefully more people later! :smalltongue:)

[Fouredged Sword]

Well the globe of invulnerability is rough in E6, but the protection from evil effect isn't bad. I would change the circle of protection to a protection from evil (meaning only the monk, not everyone near him) and change it to an EX ability so it's always on and cannot be dispelled by an outside force (the monk can suppress it as a free action.

If you want him to be able to active an ability that will make him and the party very resistant to spells, how about allowing him to take 2 points of wisdom burn (only heals naturally) to give all allies within 30ft SR equal to his HD+Wis mod+7. This will make them shrug off most spells, but magic still has a real chance of getting through and hitting them, even from low level casters. The wisdom damage should provide enough of a cost to prevent this from being used every combat, but still allowing him to use it whenever there is a big fight.

[Gullintanni]

A 6th-level Saint gets the following:
- Outsider (native) type
- WIS to AC
- Holy Power
- Holy Touch
- Guidance, Resistance, Virtue, and Bless at-will (CL 6)
- DR 5/magic
- Fast healing 3
- Immunity to acid, cold, electricity, and petrification
- Low-light vision
- Darkvision 60ft.
- Protective Aura
- Resistance to fire 10
- +4 to saves against poison
- Tongues always-on (CL 14)
- +2 CON, +2 WIS, +4 CHA
...
What would you do to properly balance this situation out?

The penalty for Templates is meant to be a reduction in point buy. Given that we're not reducing the characters' stats or assigning LA the template is a freebie.

I'd keep the following:

Outsider (Native)
+1/2 Character Level to AC Deflection bonus (Instead of Wis-to-AC). The static bonus is easier to plan around as a DM.
Holy Power
Holy Touch
2+Cha uses to be divided between Bless, Virtue, Resistance and Guidance, each with a 1 minute duration, swift action activation.
DR5/Magic
Fast Healing 3
Energy Resistance 5 Acid, Electric, Cold, Fire with a floating +10 assigned once per day to one element (this requires the player to guess a bit, but it's more flavourful than blanket immunities IMHO)
Immunity to Petrification
Low Light and Darkvision
Protective Aura 10 rounds/day, non-consecutive, swift action activation.
+4 Saves vs. Poison
Tongues
+2 Wis, +2 Cha

Still very strong, gives the player options, but requires some resource management and a little thinking ahead.