With a stingy DM, why stay alive?

[Oddman80]

I was just wondering, if your dm is being stingy with gold and treasure in your campaign, is there any benefit to staying alive after you level up? Wouldn't it be beneficial to just kill off your character and build a new one just like it, but with the DMG assigned wealth amount for your newly acquired level?

I'm in the early stages of my first campaign, and there has been little to no treasure so far. Through level 3, my character has done well in battle and stayed alive, but a couple others have not faired so well. Despite this, when the players rolled their new characters, they have better weapons/equipment than the surviving members, because they were able to use the wealth by level chart.
Other than RP and sentiment, am I missing something?

[Raven777]

Talk with your DM about it? However, if instead of distributing more treasure in accordance with the game system guidelines, his reaction is to diminish WBL on new character creation, slap him with the Player's Handbook. Hard.

[VoxRationis]

Don't be so hard on "RP and sentiment;" they're supposed to form the core of the game, really, and the mechanics are just there to hold them up, to quantify statements like "The lord of the castle is a powerful wizard."
As for the DM, he shouldn't be applying by-the-books wealth-by-level, which is explicitly only a suggestion anyway, if he's also keeping treasure low, unless he intends on making up for the discrepancy with a couple high-paying dungeons in the near future.

[Adverb]

slap him with the Player's Handbook. Hard.

This is, in no way and under no circumstances, reasonable advice or acceptable behavior.

[Oddman80]

I hope he isn't planning on it being low treasure. He did mention a pretty big payout when we complete our current mission 1000 platinum... But split five ways is just 2k gold and its unclear what lvl will be when we reach that point). Plus, I am assuming new characters are going to get a cut.... We could probably negotiate, to make sure the people who have been together the longest get the bigger cut. That would be reasonable, no? 3 get 3k gold, and the newer members split 1k.

[Seerow]

This is, in no way and under no circumstances, reasonable advice or acceptable behavior.

Better than back when the advice was shoot them in the face with a hammer gun.

[evil-frosty]

Talk to the DM about it, it is possible he has not realized this problem. This seems like a problem that can be easily solved with discussion. Also of note is the IMHO this forum assumes a lot about items and treasure and its availability. Magic items are supposed to be special. The idea of a magic mart bothers me and takes away from the fun of the game a bit for me personally. I know there are dissenting opinions, I just wanted to state my own opinion.

[ryu]

Talk to the DM about it, it is possible he has not realized this problem. This seems like a problem that can be easily solved with discussion. Also of note is the IMHO this forum assumes a lot about items and treasure and its availability. Magic items are supposed to be special. The idea of a magic mart bothers me and takes away from the fun of the game a bit for me personally. I know there are dissenting opinions, I just wanted to state my own opinion.

Even when the actual rules state repeatedly and regularly that they aren't, and even go so far as to give guidelines on what to be expected as available from a city based on population? Now you can say that items should be rare or that them being rare makes for a more enjoyable game in your eyes. Their rarity as intended is quite clearly statted pretty common though.

[Sir Chuckles]

Talk to the DM about it, it is possible he has not realized this problem. This seems like a problem that can be easily solved with discussion. Also of note is the IMHO this forum assumes a lot about items and treasure and its availability. Magic items are supposed to be special. The idea of a magic mart bothers me and takes away from the fun of the game a bit for me personally. I know there are dissenting opinions, I just wanted to state my own opinion.

But at the same time, there is an expected wealth amount of wealth per level in the basic encounter set up.
It's why sundering and other equipment destroying tactics are loathed, by both player and DM.

You wouldn't expect a 15th level Fighter to be using a +1 weapon, even if magic items are special and you're against magic marts.
So, yes, if he's underpaying you but giving new characters full WBL, you should ask him, nicely, about it. Hopefully, his answer is either "Whoops, really?" or "Expect a big payout from the next boss". 2k per person at 3rd level isn't too shabby, but if you're already 3rd level and going to be leveling once or twice to earn that 2k, I'd hope for a decent amount of random loot from hoards of Goblins.

[Slipperychicken]

Yeah, just express your concerns to him directly instead of gaming the system.

Maybe you can arrive at a compromise, like having new characters start with less wealth. Or having his encounters result in more loot.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Assuming he actually uses WBL for new characters (not necessarily true, DM could be 100% stingy), then you are correct. It's in your best interest to kill off your characters frequently. You don't even have to be blatant about it. Just make high offense and no defense glass canons and the boss fight that puts the party over the hump to next level is practically guaranteed to get you killed off! :smallsmile:

I will also say, how important going through characters like a pop singer does wardrobe changes depends on how much spellcasting you have. The less you have, the more important keeping up on wealth will be. In fact, if the DM makes you come in at 1 level down from the party with replacement PCs, it's not worth it if you play casters, even if the trick nets you double the wealth you had. The levels are just so much more important. But for a martial? +5 greatswords don't grow on trees!

[Lonely Tylenol]

You could have your new character introduced at (average party level)-1, for starters, which would put you behind in levels, much less wealth-by-level.

Doesn't sound like that's the case, though.

[VoxRationis]

In any case, 3rd level is kind of quick to be making these sorts of judgements, in my opinion. The game is pretty down to earth at such a level and it's not a big deal if your pocketbooks aren't bursting with coin at that point. Wait until you can see if this is a recurring aspect of his DMing style, and evne then, see if it matters. How's the party getting by on low loot? If you're doing just fine without being the Donald Trumps of the setting, there's no reason to make an issue of it.
Regardless of your DM's stinginess or non-stinginess, intentionally rotating through characters in order to profit by their starting equipment is metagaming (since the PCs don't really have any reason to suspect that another X will just happen to drop by) and poor form generally.

[Captnq]

It's okay, Internet, I got this one.

You see, D&D has a problem. If you want to run your campaign for years, you will very quickly run into Monty Hall Syndrome. The players wind up with huge amounts of cash that far outstrip their WBL. You can solve this problem with enforcement of artificial controls. The taxman cometh, thieves steal the excess equipment, or your church demands tithes. The problem with this is that is very quickly starts to piss off your average player. I earned that 20,000 gp, damn it, why you taking away my stuff?

You see, you aren’t actually gathering all the treasure. Allow me to explain:

1. The book allows you to sell just about anything for 50% without trying, so assume you can sell even the HOTTEST of stolen goods for 25%.

2. A platoon of 10 mid level NPCs with +2 longswords (8,315 gp each) and +2 leather armor (4,160 gp) and nothing else has 124,750 gp in equipment that can be turned into 31,187 of other goods and services with very little effort. With haggling, you could double or triple this amount.

3. But you are just focusing on magic. Lets take an example from Rapan Athak.

Room 1-6
Description: Broken furniture is everywhere, and a skeleton sits in a large chair facing you. Red, poisonous-looking ants crawl all over the skeleton and chair. On the skeleton’s lap is a deck of cards. You pause in terror as you hear a tapping sound from the hallway in front of you.
Notes: On the lap of the skeleton is a trapped deck of cards. Condensation drips from the ceiling into a tilted metal dish in the hallway leading to area 1-8, right next to the pit at area 1-7, which explains the tapping sound.
Trap: The top card is the ace of spades and is coated with contact poison.
Poison Card Trap: CR 2; contact poison (1d6 temporary Str/1d6 temporary Str); Fortitude save (DC 12) negates poison; Search (DC 15), Disable device (DC 10 by wiping off, or discarding at DC 3).
Treasure: A broken sculpture of a horse (Appraise check DC 10 reveals its value would be 25 gp if mended) rests under some debris in the corner of the room.
Standard Features: Unless otherwise noted, all doors on this level are made of iron-reinforced wood (2 in thick; Hardness 5; hp 20; Break DC 18). If doors are described as locked, add Open Lock (DC 20).

So. What loot do we have here? Broken furniture. Mending/Make whole. How much is it worth?
Poisonous looking ants? Squish the ants, gather them up, use alchemy to make something out of them. Not poisonous? Might need ant paste later.
The deck of cards is worth something. Cantrip can scrape the poison off the card and you can reuse it later.
Mend the horse Sculpture. Sell it.
Now, you are missing something here. What could it be? Ah, yes… the door. That’s a good door. Nice wood. Iron reinforced. Worth a silver or too for salvage. Oh, wait. That lock. Very simple. 20 gp.

Now about that skeleton. That’s an intact skeleton. Speak with dead should get you some good intelligence. Does it have a family? Will they pay you to return the remains? What level and alignment is the skeleton? What skills does the skeleton have? For 10 thousand gold you can bring this guy back from the dead and I have no doubt he’ll be a very loyal retainer. If he’s not worth it, or an incompatible alignment, there are necromancers who will pay for an intact skeleton. Or you could animate it yourself.

So lets total it up (Retail value):
Furniture/Scrap wood: 5 gp
Ants: If poisonous and you use poisonmaking: 100 gp, minimum.
Deck of cards: 1 gp
Poison from cards: Minimum 250 gp
Horse Sculpture: 25 gp
Door: 1 gp
Lock on door: 20 gp
Skeleton as parts: 10 gp

Total Loot from this “empty” and “trapped” room: 312 gp Minimum.

I would like to point out when I ran this adventure AS WRITTEN for my players, they found a wish/gate spell on a scroll on the ground level. They used it to make a two way portable portal that they could use to throw an unlimited amount of loot through to the other end of the gate that they set up in a warehouse in the main campaign city. All they did was assemble the “hoop”, throw stuff through, then break down the hoop. Eventually they found a mirror of mental prowess that really sped up the process.

They Strip Mined Rappan Athuk.

One of the players researched a special spell called Sealston’s Slaughterhouse. It butchers dead enemies, … Oh, here it is:

Sealston’s Slaughter House

Necromancy
Level: Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature
Duration: 1 day/level
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates.
Spell Resistance: Yes

The caster points his finger at the subject of the spell. The material component is consumed in the casting and twin silvery blades of energy shoot out towards the target. If the target is above zero hit points, he gets a fortitude save to negate. Damage is 1 hp per level up to 15 points total. If the subject still has positive hit points after damage is dealt, no further effects happen. If the target has zero hit points or below, he is instantly killed and the primary purpose of the spell occurs. Constructs and Incorporeal targets are unaffected.

The subject is chopped up into parts while glass jars, wax paper, and other forms of containers appear. The process is effectively instantaneous. At the end of the round, the target resides in parts carefully harvested and arranged neatly on the ground. Not a drop of blood is wasted. The subject’s skin is carefully folded and wrapped up. All the body parts are in little jars. The parts are all under an effect similar to Gentle Repose and will not decay for one day per level.

Typically the spell is used only on non-living targets that others have already killed, but it has been used as a coup de grace by wizards who like to be intimidating. While there is no attached fear effect per say, watching the person next to you turn into a pile of wrapped meat with his internal organs floating in jars does tend to have a negative impact on morale.

Oddly enough, while the target is chopped up into many different parts, everything is present and the subject can still be the subject of a raise dead spell. In such a case, all the parts must be put together, but not necessarily in the right order. Putting all the parts and fluids together in a bath tub would work just fine, just be sure to plug up the drain.

Material Component: Two silver coins with ‘X’s scratched in them.

THAT is what I had to deal with. He put it in a WAND. I had to deal with the systematic slaughter and conversion of Rappan Athuk into it’s cash value by a dungeon destroying MACHINE Called "my players". It was beautiful, in a horrific sort of way. The final battle with Orcus was a joke. Why? Because the adventure was written for players who apparently think like you.

You only find the loot that the DM drops in front of you and points at with a neon sign that says, “LOOT.” Show some creative problem solving. Think outside the box. There are no empty rooms until you have scraped every last ounce of green slime up and bottled it in hermetically sealed jars to sell on the open market.

After that, I restarted the campaign. Simply put, the typical module has far more cash then WBL allows. The players broke the bank. They used all the “extra” money to raise dead/resurrect the many many MANY corpses they found in the dungeon (Checking alignment and usefulness first, of course). They made sure to never exceed WBL, but that meant nothing when they had a small army following them around to make sure that they held and maintained every inch of that dungeon.

Me? My hands were tied. I promised to run the module AS WRITTEN. It was not written for my players. It was written for “normal” players.

So now I’m stingy. And the players know why. They don’t mind, because they have the skills, knowledge, and ability to be dropped naked anywhere and figure out how to make spiked armor out of wicker. (yes, this happened).

So maybe your DM is just thinking long term. Maybe he wants to run this game for the next ten years and doesn’t want thing to blow up out of control too fast. Or maybe he’s a ****.

Here is a relevant quote from my Noob Handbook:

Trap 1
Not making a character to fit the campaign. No, not to fit the party, the campaign.

I run a campaign which by anyone else’s standards is stingy and slow advancement. Players are normally below WBL, but a few times they exceeded it slightly. I track inherent bonuses against WBL. No magic mart. If you have a charisma of 6, chances of you finding some place to sell you magic items is next to nil. Hell, my players still bitch about the epic ****-fest they had to go through to buy a stinking handy haversack. Advancement is slow as well. However, I run every Thursday for upwards of 8 to 12 hours. 50 weeks a year, going on year 8.

One of my players started playing with another group on Fridays. He went on and on about how awesome it was to start out at 10th and that advancement was one level a session and he had everything planned out for the next 10 levels. Then he discovered it didn’t matter what treasure the monsters had, because you could only have EXACTLY what your WBL allowed you to have. Also, you could have any magic item in the book just by going to town and buying it, so the other players had the most powerful magic items they could get for the money. He planned poorly, apparently.

Then after three sessions the DM got bored with running and wanted someone else to run. When he finally got back around to wanting to run again, he wanted to start a new campaign with new PCs.

My player went into that game with the idea that he was going to be able to play for another 10 levels. He built his PC around that idea. He was used to playing with me, where you can plan out the next 20 levels and know that I’m going to be here, every single week. The players in the other game were used to only having a few sessions then discarding the PC, so they planned short term.

Is one way better then another? No. I have a preference, but one is not better then the other. What’s important is to understand what to expect long term. Are we starting at 1st? How easy is it to get new magic items? How strict is the Wealth By Level enforced? Are we playing until we defeat the X? Is this an open ended campaign? What level should I expect to reach?

If it’s going to be a short run, plan your PC accordingly. Planning on being the Uber-Mage at level 15 means nothing if you never make it past level 8. Making the ultimate level 5 character means nothing if he has no room to grow and the campaign is going to last years.

In other words, the first trap is planning too much, or not enough, for the campaign you are playing in.

I hope this helps explain the mindset of the stingy DM.

[evil-frosty]

Even when the actual rules state repeatedly and regularly that they aren't, and even go so far as to give guidelines on what to be expected as available from a city based on population? Now you can say that items should be rare or that them being rare makes for a more enjoyable game in your eyes. Their rarity as intended is quite clearly statted pretty common though.

This is a difference from learning in AD&D and in 3.5. My first game I played in when I was seven years old and it was a hybrid 1st and 2nd edition game in which the view of magic is very different. For me it has always been not having the right magic item or spell for the situation but figuring out how to use what I do have in a creative way. Again this is a product of different editions. I prefer my magic to be unique, it gets boring if every character has the same magic items, or can just always upgrade when they want. For me magic will always be something special, and for many people I know.

The rules of 3.5 have never been a gold standard of what rules should be like. Also the rules are guidelines more than anything else. This is a difference of opinion (most likely we won't change each other's opinions) nothing more, I have fun in my games and so do the people I play with, and I hope you and your friends have fun playing your game.

[ryu]

This is a difference from learning in AD&D and in 3.5. My first game I played in when I was seven years old and it was a hybrid 1st and 2nd edition game in which the view of magic is very different. For me it has always been not having the right magic item or spell for the situation but figuring out how to use what I do have in a creative way. Again this is a product of different editions. I prefer my magic to be unique, it gets boring if every character has the same magic items, or can just always upgrade when they want. For me magic will always be something special, and for many people I know.

The rules of 3.5 have never been a gold standard of what rules should be like. Also the rules are guidelines more than anything else. This is a difference of opinion (most likely we won't change each other's opinions) nothing more, I have fun in my games and so do the people I play with, and I hope you and your friends have fun playing your game.

Oh I'm not making should statements. I'm just stating that the level of magical common in this edition is demonstrably completely intentional on the part of the designers. It wasn't supposed to be any rarer than the forum suggests it is.

[Bullet06320]

in the DM's defense, are your searching for treasure?
properly looting dead bodies?
searching rooms for that hidden chest of goodies?
leaving art objects that could be sold later?

now if your searching and just not finding it, maybe its hidden too well or he really is stingy with the loot
or maybe you aint searching hard enough

ive had players forget to search bodies and missed valuable loot in the passed, and also missed search checks, but I always try and find a way to get them to come up with something eventually

[Adverb]

Captnq,

I wanna play in your campaign now. Though, maybe not with your players.

[Mizr]

If your DM is being unreasonably stingy, I would suggest this:

1. Buy an axe.

2. Carve the words "Murderin' Axe" into it.

3. Whenever treasure is doled out, visibly play with the axe.

4. When asked what the axe is for say "Wood. Duh."

5. Profit.

[ericgrau]

Only level 3? I'd give it more time, especially since he says treasure is coming. And level 3 WBL might be way more than level 1 WBL, but it's still not going to make a huge difference. New characters should come back a level lower than the party so there's a big drawback right there. If not then you're taking advantage of the DM going easy on you to squeeze out a couple thousand more gp. Seems like bad form to me. But if you loot all you can and even after treasure comes it's more than a little low, then you may want to say something to the DM.

Captnq: Lol.

[Zombimode]

I was just wondering, if your dm is being stingy with gold and treasure in your campaign, is there any benefit to staying alive after you level up? Wouldn't it be beneficial to just kill off your character and build a new one just like it, but with the DMG assigned wealth amount for your newly acquired level?

No, since by the book (this is important) your new character starts at one level lower than your previous character.

[Spore]

Jesus, just ask him instead of suggesting to manipulate your characters with deliberate deaths. Is communication and common sense so underrated these days?

[CockroachTeaParty]

That was a jolly good read, captnq.

I too face the prospect of playing in a 'low magic' game, where the players are vastly behind WBL. They're level 11 if I recall; I'll be constructing a level 11 character with only a single medium magic item to his name.

It's a challenge, to say the least. Sadly, here's what it does to my mind:

Low magic and low gear, eh? Better play a caster.

But who benefits the most from gear? You guessed it: non-casters. Specifically, fighting types. Instead of making his game believably low magic, he's encouraging people to play sorcerers, etc.

He probably should have just played E6 (shudder), or (perish the thought!) a different game system. Oh well... I never get to play (eternal DM here), so I have to take what I can get.

[Ansem]

This is, in no way and under no circumstances, reasonable advice or acceptable behavior.

More often needed than you think.

[atemu1234]

Well, this really is kind of hard to tell. I mean, is the DM good otherwise? Do you enjoy hanging out with your friends and are you attached to your character? It's not like fun is measured in gold pieces. If it's bugging you that much, try pointing it out to him. As someone who started DMing only a couple years ago, I wouldn't have minded if people pointed out the mistakes I made, so I can fix them.

[Kane0]

When the issue of below average WBL is brought up at your gaming table here is what you do.
You sit down, you look your DM square in the eye and you say "challenge accepted".

[Chronos]

Captnq, while you make a good point, it's only half-relevant. Yes, creative players can accumulate tons of gold by selling the furniture and the like... But what are they going to do with it? Gold is only worth as much as you can buy with it. Maybe there are no magic marts in this campaign. Maybe there are, but they're only in the big cities, and the party is in the hinterlands and has five levels worth of adventuring before they can even reach the city. Heck, maybe there aren't even any markets locally for the furniture: Are you going to haul it all the way to the city before converting it to gold?

To the OP, don't worry about it yet. At 2nd or 3rd level, WBL is too low to really afford any decent magic items yet. Which means that it ends up being an expectation value, not an actual value: There's a chance that you'll have one or two magic items that are worth more than your WBL, and a chance that you won't, and it averages out. You've just gotten unlucky this time. But by 4th or 5th level, that should be smoothed out.

[Spore]

Unless your campaign world is EMPTY, money can always buy stuff. Have the grand vizier or even the king in your pocket enables you to do all kinds of odd stuff.

[Big Fau]

Don't be so hard on "RP and sentiment;" they're supposed to form the core of the game, really, and the mechanics are just there to hold them up, to quantify statements like "The lord of the castle is a powerful wizard."
As for the DM, he shouldn't be applying by-the-books wealth-by-level, which is explicitly only a suggestion anyway, if he's also keeping treasure low, unless he intends on making up for the discrepancy with a couple high-paying dungeons in the near future.

The WBL isn't a suggestion; it's a linchpin in the CR system. Removing it makes the CR system even more unstable (as it's already wonky), and low-wealth campaigns are untenable beyond 2nd or 3rd level. 3.5 just isn't built to accommodate such a drastic modification to a vital factor.

[jjcrpntr]

in the DM's defense, are your searching for treasure?
properly looting dead bodies?
searching rooms for that hidden chest of goodies?
leaving art objects that could be sold later?

now if your searching and just not finding it, maybe its hidden too well or he really is stingy with the loot
or maybe you aint searching hard enough

ive had players forget to search bodies and missed valuable loot in the passed, and also missed search checks, but I always try and find a way to get them to come up with something eventually

See this may be the case. In the pathfinder game I'm running now I'm not big on magic marts. In fact in my game powerful magic items are incredibly rare. The problem is so far through all the fights the party has only looted after 2 of them. The gold I've given out has been spent largely on potions and people bitch that they can't upgrade their stuff. They are also only level 3 and I think it's silly to bitch about loot/gold at that level. Heck I had one guy (when they were level 2) that bitched that I wasn't giving them any +1 or better weapons yet.

[drack]

I hope he isn't planning on it being low treasure. He did mention a pretty big payout when we complete our current mission 1000 platinum... But split five ways is just 2k gold and its unclear what lvl will be when we reach that point). Plus, I am assuming new characters are going to get a cut.... We could probably negotiate, to make sure the people who have been together the longest get the bigger cut. That would be reasonable, no? 3 get 3k gold, and the newer members split 1k.Sorry, not reading the thread... Still, I've heard plenty of stories of the guy who did so only to find the payout and for it to be over WBL, and for the new guy to be cut out of his/her share since they didn't do all the work leading up to finding the loot. After all what if there's also a chest with 10k platinum of magic items?

[Doc_Maynot]

Run a character with Vow of Poverty. No loot, no problem.

[killem2]

There are far to many people in this thread that take wealth way to seriously, and the best solution would be not to **** your players around.

OP: I wouldn't directly ask the DM why you haven't gotten any treasure, there may be reasons for this. What I would do is, start asking around, ask the party if they want to go travel from city to city until you do find someone who has some wares. Eventually, the DM will either stop trying to railroad you into fighting for nothing, and give you city that at least has something to sell, or he'll break.

I know if I stopped giving my players something they would notice. It's a fun part of D&D for players to be able to spend their hard earned cash on something shiny. Makes them appreciate their accomplishments.


I am a very liberal DM however. I try to say yes to as much as I can. I don't take away from my players if I can help it, I give them miles, and they only take inches.

[HighWater]

The WBL isn't a suggestion; it's a linchpin in the CR system. Removing it makes the CR system even more unstable (as it's already wonky), and low-wealth campaigns are untenable beyond 2nd or 3rd level. 3.5 just isn't built to accommodate such a drastic modification to a vital factor.

It isn't a suggestion, yet it is specificly worded as such, sending a nice little mixed message.

@OP: Gently point out to the Dm that having people restart with full WBL while those who don't die get a single gp to share (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1032) feels unfair. Good chance he accidentally granted the makers of new characters access to WBL, while he instead meant party average or some such thing. Alternatively, he doesn't know WBL is a thing. Be nice, just ask if there's a reason for it because you're feeling "punished" for not dying.

[Shining Wrath]

First: under no circumstances should anyone resort to violence over Dungeons and Dragons. Don't slap your DM with the PHB; better to find a different table.

Second: my DM isn't stingy, but has the amazingly annoying habit of giving loot per random roll. For example, we just got a wand at first level. Yay! A 3rd level spell! Double yay!
Of Sunlight. I kid you not. If you went through every splatbook ever and picked the least powerful 3rd level spell for any class, Sunlight would be a leading candidate. So we sold it. Sorcerer, wizard, warlock / mystic ranger gestalt, and we sold a wand with a spell of higher level than any of us can cast because the spell therein was useless.

In a prior campaign (I wrote a thread about this), we got a +3 shocking battle axe. With a chaotic evil personality. In a party where the only logical user was a Paladin. By far the most valuable piece of loot we ever got, and not only could we not use it, we didn't feel right about selling it to someone who could.

It is quite possible for a DM to distribute loot as dictated by the books and still have a under-powered party.

[Vortenger]

Kill the new party members and take their stuff. Enter new, new party members a bit later with fresh gear.

[Shining Wrath]

Kill the new party members and take their stuff. Enter new, new party members a bit later with fresh gear.

Didn't I used to see you playing Ultima Online? You were the guy with the bright-red name...

[Shinken]

You could have your new character introduced at (average party level)-1, for starters, which would put you behind in levels, much less wealth-by-level.

Doesn't sound like that's the case, though.

I'm pretty sure that was an actual rule in 3.0

[Metahuman1]

Suggest this alternate system. Your character get's a pool of what will call upgrade points. He get's them at a 1 to 1 ratio with GP. Even when he isn't awarding you GP. You can't spend them on Mundane Items, but you can spend them to get the benefits of any magic items. If there consumable, your paying for whatever number of use's and then it's gone along with the points. You can off load a benefit for half the price of an equivalent magic item, and you have improvement slots that mirror magic items and can't be worn in conjunction with an actual magic item.



Congrats, you now have the ability to have the bonuses the CR system says you should have, and still have loot and magic items be scared and special. If he wants to do this, suggest banning the Artificer, and running E6 with the Gestalt Variant Rules tacked on. Congrats, Grittier "low magic" 3.5 D&D that still let's you be awesome enough to be a big dog in the setting.

[Mikeavelli]

The thing about WBL being a guideline is that it's a guideline combined with all of the other guidelines in the game

So if you're under Wealth By Level, you won't be able to survive CR-appropriate challenges.

A DM of mine was famously committed to a 'low-magic' world with wealth far below WBL, but all of the encounters were perfectly in line with the CR system. He was confused why we kept dying all the time, blaming it on poor tactics. In reality, we were significantly behind in numbers compared to what the game designers expected us to have, unable to compete with encounters that weren't similarly scaled-down, and ended up dissolving after an unfortunate TPK.

Once he accepts this (if he does) - he should be more inclined to either raise the WBL, or lower the challenge of the monsters you're facing.

[Coidzor]

Jesus, just ask him instead of suggesting to manipulate your characters with deliberate deaths. Is communication and common sense so underrated these days?

Did you just suggest talking to someone? In real life? :smalleek:

[Oddman80]

Thanks everyone. There were some good logical suggestions. I wasn't actually too worried about my campaign
it was just something I noticed when it occurred and my brain went straight to the metagaming impact that could be potentially exploited (not necessarily by me). It was more a fleeting curiosity than a gripe about my DM. A few of us have already brought it up. I mentioned the idea of coming back a level lower as well as the average wealth ideas. We're going to have a few extra guidelines come next weeks session. I think our DM is actually pretty new to the DM role, as well. So he simply didn't realize the potential problem. Thanks again.

[Grayson01]

I haad this exact problem with one of my long term DM's in college. One of the players kept making new Characters even went as far as to make one the brother of his current charcter and got WBL for him and then his brotehr gave him half of his equipment. (before you all say it, the DM did punish him in the end the final boss was a Sevenfold Vail and used some spell that targeted the person with the most magic Items. The DM thought it was me, because my salution to not getting enough loots was as the Rouge Assassin steel and hord the **** out of it. But the other player ended up Banished to the Plane of Law) We all tryed talking to him, but his answer was always enemies don't travel around with all their loot they are just strike teams sent after you with bare essentials. So if you DM does not understand you complaint Killing off your charcter is an option to catch up.

[Talya]

If you're in a truly low magic/low wealth campaign, that you know is going to stay that way, that's actually one of the few good times to take Vow of Poverty and watch your DM get frustrated.

[Raven777]

Don't be so hard on "RP and sentiment;" they're supposed to form the core of the game, really, and the mechanics are just there to hold them up, to quantify statements like "The lord of the castle is a powerful wizard."
As for the DM, he shouldn't be applying by-the-books wealth-by-level, which is explicitly only a suggestion anyway, if he's also keeping treasure low, unless he intends on making up for the discrepancy with a couple high-paying dungeons in the near future.

I respect your position but disagree with it. The system is integral to the core of the experience, otherwise we could just be sitting down and sharing stories. Role playing is indeed universal, but groups say they play "3.5" or "Pathfinder", not just "role playing", in the same way you know full well "Zelda" and "Skyrim" are different experiences, not just "video games". Rules and story are what define a campaign, neither more important than the other. And the role of rules is to shape expectations and balance.

First, when agreeing to play a campaign of any give system, players have expectations that the game is going to operate on common, constant rules as available in the game books. Common, constant, reliable rules are the great equalizer : they are the same for every player, across every group, allowing each to plan their characters and define their actions in a coherent manner from moment to moment and game to game, within clear and common constraints. If the DM chooses to stray from these rules, he is no longer following the system as designed by its - let us assume - competent developers and rather is taking his players for a spin through a campaign of "Bobby's take on 3.5". Which might very well not be what all players showed up to play. Not everyone revels in pure role play. It might surprise you, but some are in the hobby for the intricacies of combat tactics and character building. These facets are well supported by the rules straight out of the book, and since these same rules do not impede role play, arbitrary changes are counter productive. Worse, they can be interpreted as needlessly hostile to one's way of playing in accord with the rules.

Second is a question of balance. Wealth by level is no mere guideline. Wealth and levels are the cornerstone of encounter balance throughout the whole game. Characters are expected to acquire enhancement bonuses and abilities from certain items as they level up. Mess with it and you mess with every encounter table and what players should be able to take on at any given level. You also mess with the relative power within the party, because classes are not all as dependent on items as each other. I do not say that there needs to be bounties of gold showering from chests and a Magic Mart in every hovel the party comes across. Rather, the DM's job includes coming up with ways to uphold the rules within his narrative, and I swear it can be done within any narrative. A dying, decaying, barely inhabited world can still have all the artifacts the party needs sleeping below crumbling catacombs. Rules and story, hand in hand.

EDIT : spelling.

[VoxRationis]

I'm not saying that the DM should throw magic items out the window while keeping all the same monsters. I'm saying that since the DM has sovereignty over all aspects of the world—challenges AND resources—it's entirely reasonable for them to reduce both, or to alter both in keeping with one another.

[Big Fau]

I'm not saying that the DM should throw magic items out the window while keeping all the same monsters. I'm saying that since the DM has sovereignty over all aspects of the world—challenges AND resources—it's entirely reasonable for them to reduce both, or to alter both in keeping with one another.

And from what the OP has told us only his character is keeping up with the encounters. This means either the entire party is under-optimized or under-equipped, and in either case it's the DM's responsibility to adjust the difficulty until the party is up to speed for his campaign.

[Bullet06320]

Kill the new party members and take their stuff. Enter new, new party members a bit later with fresh gear.

also don't forget to loot dead party members

[Adverb]

Kill the new party members and take their stuff. Enter new, new party members a bit later with fresh gear.

Ah, I see you too have played World's Largest Dungeon.

[Fortuna]

The WBL isn't a suggestion; it's a linchpin in the CR system. Removing it makes the CR system even more unstable (as it's already wonky), and low-wealth campaigns are untenable beyond 2nd or 3rd level. 3.5 just isn't built to accommodate such a drastic modification to a vital factor.

See, the way I see it, the CR system is so bloody wonky that saying "Doing X disrupts the CR system" isn't really a significant argument against doing X. If your DM is good enough to make encounters work despite the hideous mis-CR-ing of WotC, then they're probably good enough to adjust for a wealth shortage - and if they aren't, then you have bigger problems than being shorted on wealth.

[HammeredWharf]

See, the way I see it, the CR system is so bloody wonky that saying "Doing X disrupts the CR system" isn't really a significant argument against doing X. If your DM is good enough to make encounters work despite the hideous mis-CR-ing of WotC, then they're probably good enough to adjust for a wealth shortage - and if they aren't, then you have bigger problems than being shorted on wealth.

The CR system isn't worth worrying about, but inter-party balance is. Low-power characters have to rely on magic marts to negate their shortcomings, while high-power characters tend to be self-sufficient. Take wealth from a Druid and he'll still be a flying, near-indestructible death machine, but take it from a Fighter and he'll be the guy who can't even get into melee.

[Brookshw]

The CR system isn't worth worrying about, but inter-party balance is. Low-power characters have to rely on magic marts to negate their shortcomings, while high-power characters tend to be self-sufficient. Take wealth from a Druid and he'll still be a flying, near-indestructible death machine, but take it from a Fighter and he'll be the guy who can't even get into melee.

Eh, thats a problem with game design and/or possibly encounter design. After all, a 15 level fighter stocked to the gills with various staffs still has their wbl even if it useless. The game doesn't have a RAW that by level x you should have y either through a class feature or loot. Every time this topic comes up it sounds like a bunch of red herrings, though we've had a few nods to alternative encounter design negate the impact of "sub-wbl".

As to the OP, level 3 seems far to low level to be concerned with this. As to other players dying, well, that's not exactly a shocker, low level characters die pretty easily from q few lucky/unlucky rolls.

[Talya]

at level 3, WBL is 2700 gp. Since you can't spend more than 50% of that on any one items, it means the most you can get for a permanent magic item is a +1 peice of armor. Maybe a healing belt, or a badge of valor if you're a bard. Yeah, it's much too early to worry about DM stinginess.

[killem2]

Since you can't spend more than 50% of that on any one items

That's raw as well?

Jeese I am missing so much stuff. Oh well, I really don't care if my level 9 player wants a +1 splitting bow for his new archer and the rest of junk. People being stupid with money is a real thing as well :P.

[DigoDragon]

I vote for communication as well.


I'm currently in a D&D game where the GM has stated from the beginning that it will be low wealth. I don't mind stingy GMs when they're up front about it. It just means our party has to be in a different mindset. The fighter has craft skills to build masterwork items for us. My wizard took Craft Wonderous Item and can enchant a few of the fighter's masterwork items cheaply. The rogue has invested in Appraise and made a few fencing contacts to squeeze more coins out of whatever stuff we decide to sell off. We fight smartly in combat (like we're Tucker's Kobolds or something) to minimize resources spent on healing and replacing equipment.

It is harder than the usual weath we'd get, but it's doable and we're still having some fun with it.

[Fortuna]

The CR system isn't worth worrying about, but inter-party balance is. Low-power characters have to rely on magic marts to negate their shortcomings, while high-power characters tend to be self-sufficient. Take wealth from a Druid and he'll still be a flying, near-indestructible death machine, but take it from a Fighter and he'll be the guy who can't even get into melee.

I understand that, but it's a separate issue. Certainly, removing wealth exacerbates the disparities between characters in many places, and that should be considered. I was specifically arguing against the specific point that the CR system is worth any attempt to preserve.

[HammeredWharf]

I understand that, but it's a separate issue. Certainly, removing wealth exacerbates the disparities between characters in many places, and that should be considered. I was specifically arguing against the specific point that the CR system is worth any attempt to preserve.

Perhaps I misquoted that a bit, because I was, in fact, agreeing with your post, even though the "but" may have made it look otherwise.


Eh, thats a problem with game design and/or possibly encounter design. After all, a 15 level fighter stocked to the gills with various staffs still has their wbl even if it useless. The game doesn't have a RAW that by level x you should have y either through a class feature or loot. Every time this topic comes up it sounds like a bunch of red herrings, though we've had a few nods to alternative encounter design negate the impact of "sub-wbl".

That's why I specifically mentioned magic marts. Even though there's no RAW on this, the game assumes you have access to, for example, flight after a certain level and melee people have access to items with certain +attack bonuses and DR penetration. Not a huge issue on lvl 3, but the 5400 gp WBL of lvl 4 is enough to gain a rather major advantage. Besides, some items like full plate armor cost too much for a lvl 1 character.