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The Vorpal Tribble
2007-02-08, 07:21 PM
'Elder Evils' is supposed to be coming out this December.

Please, please explain to me how this is possible? The way they were described in Lords of Madness is that they are beyond the gods themselves and don't grant any kind of domain or spells or anything. They are beyond mortal ken.

So, in the light of this, what kind of book are they likely to make of it?

Woot Spitum
2007-02-08, 07:28 PM
Hopefully, one that builds on the whole "otherworldly environment" that started in Lords of Madness.

SpiderBrigade
2007-02-08, 07:53 PM
Possibly they'll do something like they've been doing for demon lords and gods with, what are they called, Aspects?

Khantalas
2007-02-08, 07:56 PM
No, we have to stat Hastur.

Hastur, Hastur. What's the deal with him- *is killed in a most painful fashion*

SpiderBrigade
2007-02-08, 08:01 PM
"You don't wanna stat out Hastur? Wassa matter, are ya yellow?"

Jack Mann
2007-02-08, 08:13 PM
Yes. It's from liver failure, after years of drug and alcohol induced "visions."

Raistlin1040
2007-02-08, 08:15 PM
Stronger than gods or different then gods?

Jack Mann
2007-02-08, 08:16 PM
The answer is yes.

TheOOB
2007-02-08, 08:16 PM
How can you create rules and statistics to something that is so alien that you go insane simply from catching a glimpse of it?

I know, stat out the creature using a different PnP system. "You deal 200 hp worth of damage, unfortunatly he doesn't have hp and rather has wound boxes, and I don't see a wound damage code on your weapon *evil cackle*"

Fax Celestis
2007-02-08, 08:45 PM
What domains does Cthulhu grant?

Amotis
2007-02-08, 08:46 PM
1d6 Adventurers per round.

'Nuff said.

Delcan
2007-02-08, 08:47 PM
Why, Good and Healing, of course. Which did you expect?

Dervag
2007-02-08, 08:51 PM
If you can stat it, you can kill it. That sort of goes entirely against the entire premise of Lovecraftian horror, which is that we can no more combat these monstrosities directly than my goldfish can combat me.

SpiderBrigade
2007-02-08, 08:59 PM
I know, stat out the creature using a different PnP system. "You deal 200 hp worth of damage, unfortunatly he doesn't have hp and rather has wound boxes, and I don't see a wound damage code on your weapon *evil cackle*"
That is...genius! You could even use this for lower-level, but still "OMG you will all die" type monsters. Start the encounter by laying out dozens and dozens of D10s, and let your players figure out wtf those are for...

Belteshazzar
2007-02-08, 09:11 PM
If you can stat it, you can kill it. That sort of goes entirely against the entire premise of Lovecraftian horror, which is that we can no more combat these monstrosities directly than my goldfish can combat me.
Not necessarily. The Tarresque for example is imposable to kill without wish or miracle and I doubt either of these could finish off an eternal sleeper or such. It is not unusual to imagine a simple unkillable yet containable or avoidable horror such as Great Chluhlu. As for domains give the old ones Dream, Darkness, Madness, Ooze, BadAssery and a few others. I for one would love to see a good god or demi-god go up against some of them the nordic gods in particular have a fatalistic view of the universe (fire or ice either will suffice the passion of flame to die untamed yet always remember that ice is twice and thrice the...) Anyways the nordic gods wouldn't mind going up against something like that and it would be nice to see the Elder Ones earn their keep.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-08, 09:26 PM
If you can stat it, you can kill it. That sort of goes entirely against the entire premise of Lovecraftian horror, which is that we can no more combat these monstrosities directly than my goldfish can combat me.

Even the old Chaosium Cthulhu statted the Elder Gods.

Not that he was remotely killable unless you happened to have six or seven people with anti-tank weapons who succeeded on their sanity checks by large margins and rolled maximum damage.

Cybren
2007-02-08, 09:30 PM
Even the old Chaosium Cthulhu statted the Elder Gods.

Not that he was remotely killable unless you happened to have six or seven people with anti-tank weapons who succeeded on their sanity checks by large margins and rolled maximum damage.
Like it matters? Just lead him in a circle and then he'll fall asleep when he gets tired. Even if you kill him it's the same thing as sleeping to him anyway.

SpiderBrigade
2007-02-08, 09:30 PM
Plus with something like Cthulhu, who knows what "killable" even means. You round up your squad of sanity-check machines, and they pulp him with LAWs...come on. You know he'll be back.

Belteshazzar
2007-02-08, 09:31 PM
Exactly I mean wasn't Cthluhlu taken out of action in the original story for at least a few minutes by some simple sailors (1srt or third level experts at most). Granted they rammed a whole steamer into his bulbous head but it did incapacitate him for a few minutes

Fax Celestis
2007-02-08, 09:38 PM
I also remember that, if you did kill him, he turned to mist and reformed some 1d10+5 (or something) minutes later, angrier.

AngelSword
2007-02-08, 09:41 PM
I prefer to run Gods (Elder or otherwise), Great Old Ones, and their ilk as nigh-unkillable, so any stats produced for them are useless to me. Although, the Great Old Ones were written up in the "Call of Cthulhu d20," where domains are listed in their type line. Weird.

Krimm_Blackleaf
2007-02-08, 09:48 PM
I want that book more than I want the blood that runs through my veins right now. *drooling*

Jack Mann
2007-02-08, 09:56 PM
Hmm. How much blood are we talking about?

Thomas
2007-02-08, 10:04 PM
"You don't wanna stat out Hastur? Wassa matter, are ya yellow?"

Baby, I am the King in Yellow.


Anyway, Cthulhu & all had D&D stats in the CoC d20 book (not CoC d20 stats; for CoC d20 use, they are beyond having stats). Not to mention the old BRP CoC books...



Even the old Chaosium Cthulhu statted the Elder Gods.

Not that he was remotely killable unless you happened to have six or seven people with anti-tank weapons who succeeded on their sanity checks by large margins and rolled maximum damage.

And it'd still regenerate itself back in no time.

Cthulhu can obviously be "killed" - in fact, it's "killed" in the short story, by having a steamship blow into it - but it will just put itself back together.

Demented
2007-02-08, 10:14 PM
So, in the light of this, what kind of book are they likely to make of it?

A physics book, obviously.

Attacks will come in the form of joules applied across an area. Damage will be measured in the form of how far your hopeless sack of an abdomen is flung. Health will take the form of your weight and average density, as necessary to calculate how many specimen bags you will have to be collected in.

clarkvalentine
2007-02-08, 10:17 PM
Anyway, Cthulhu & all had D&D stats in the CoC d20 book


As I recall, the art on that page had the Great Cthulhu ripping Tordek a new one while Mialee takes leave of her sanity. :smallbiggrin:

Amotis
2007-02-08, 10:19 PM
Oh jeez, now I need that book.

Cybren
2007-02-08, 10:28 PM
Cthulu is already dead.
"Deep in sunken Ryleh, Dead Cthulu lays dreaming"

Jack Mann
2007-02-08, 10:30 PM
That is not dead which can eternal lie / And which strange aeons even death may die.

SpiderBrigade
2007-02-08, 10:43 PM
As I recall, the art on that page had the Great Cthulhu ripping Tordek a new one while Mialee takes leave of her sanity. :smallbiggrin:Oddly enough she's managing to get a spell off. Must be that wizardly Will save? Or the drugs.
Baby, I am the King in Yellow.:smallbiggrin: that made me happy.
Hmm. How much blood are we talking about?Like...if you went to hell...and it was full of blood, and that blood was on fire, and it was raining blood, then maybe THAT would be enough blood. But, uh... probably not.

Solo
2007-02-08, 10:56 PM
Last time I checked, Cthulu had stats and a CR of F*** You.

clarkvalentine
2007-02-08, 11:14 PM
Oddly enough she's managing to get a spell off. Must be that wizardly Will save? Or the drugs.


No, see, she's a crazed cultist. They got to her, and she's casting spells against the other PCs (verbal component: "Fhtagn!")

Ahem. Yes.


Now stay away from that book, Investigator.

- Clark

CockroachTeaParty
2007-02-08, 11:46 PM
I'm dreaming of a non-euclidean Christmas...

TheOOB
2007-02-09, 12:01 AM
I always ran it that in order to kill a god, elder or otherwise, you need an artifact of at least equal power to said god. A deity can't use divine abilities agienst someone using such an artifact, though they still has a crap ton of HD/class levels and will probally win anyways, one artifact richer.

Now an artifact of power equal to Cthulhu would be some 4+ dimesional brick-a-brack that causes you to barf up your soul on contact or some crud like that, not something a mear mortal could effectivly use as a weapon.

Thomas
2007-02-09, 12:06 AM
Cthulhu's not a deity, though. It's just a huge alien monster, probably a high-priest or patriarch of its kind. Same as the other Great Old Ones.

Azathoth, Nyarlathotep, and the other Outer Gods are deities (actually granting powers to those who follow them, such as witches like Keziah Mason)... although even they are really just transdimensional aliens.

The Great Old Ones are all at least theoretically vulnerable to physical attacks; most Outer Gods are not (like Daoloth, the Render of the Veils, who appears and begins to expand, consuming everything that touches its impossible form). Even they, though, can be driven off or held at bay by magic (which is sort of the point in CoC).

Cybren
2007-02-09, 12:10 AM
Cthulhu's not a deity, though. It's just a huge alien monster, probably a high-priest or patriarch of its kind. Same as the other Great Old Ones.

Azathoth, Nyarlathotep, and the other Outer Gods are deities (actually granting powers to those who follow them, such as witches like Keziah Mason)... although even they are really just transdimensional aliens.

The Great Old Ones are all at least theoretically vulnerable to physical attacks; most Outer Gods are not (like Daoloth, the Render of the Veils, who appears and begins to expand, consuming everything that touches its impossible form). Even they, though, can be driven off or held at bay by magic (which is sort of the point in CoC).
Don't go bringing Derleth nonsense into this.

Thomas
2007-02-09, 12:18 AM
It's just CoC rules. :smalltongue:

Cybren
2007-02-09, 12:48 AM
Don't go bringing Derleth nonsense into this.
I may have to close my eyes and scream "lalalala I can't hear you!"

Closet_Skeleton
2007-02-09, 04:59 AM
That is not dead which can eternal lie / And which strange aeons even death may die.

Dude, Lovecraft like, says that about, like everything.

Cthulhu has the Deathless, Undead, Outsider and Aberration types at the same time. This is of course impossible in the rules since you're only allowed one type and multiple subtypes.

It's enough to send you made just trying to stat Cthulhu.

Khantalas
2007-02-09, 05:02 AM
Cthulhu is the Dark Alien Lord of the Augmented Subtype.

Enormous (the step after colossal) Undead (augmented everything).

Yes, it is enormous. Don't ask me why, I never read the books.

Belteshazzar
2007-02-09, 02:13 PM
Cthulhu is the Dark Aliean Lord of the Augmented Subtype.

Enormous (the step after colossal) Undead (augmented everything).

Yes, it is Enormous. Don't ask me why, I never read the books.
Enormous don't be ridiculous, now everyone knows that that the sunken
city of Gn'ot R'ley Der is in the 'Cyclopean' category therefor so is Cthulhu.

talsine
2007-02-09, 02:22 PM
I bought 2 copies of d20 CoC, and have since managed to keep a hold of them both. Course, i never get to use them, stupid rule about me not playing anymore insane Cthulhu cultist. No, not even in the evil games. No, not even if you buy pizza. /sigh

Oh well, they'll all fear my Artificer Herbert Westling, hehe

Darrin
2007-02-09, 02:42 PM
It's just CoC rules. :smalltongue:

I heard somewhere when Tweet put together CoC D20, they got a group of WotC staffers to go up against Big Squidface himself... rules were something like any 20th level char w/ suggested starting gold, $0.25 per character sheet, just to see how long it would take.

Since you can't kill Cthulhu permanently, eventually a 20th-level cleric was able to get off a Banishment, and Cthulhu failed his save.

There was also a Macho Women With Guns scenario/campaign that sent the players up against Bthulhu, the Hawaiian/Malibu surfpunk version of Cthulhu. There were a few others... "Call of Computer" featured some Paranoia troubleshooters squaring off against Big-C with zorgs/mecha (author used to run this at Origins quite a bit). And there was a HOL scenario in Shadis, "A HOL Lot of Trouble", but I can't recall if it was all that playable or just an excuse to kill PCs.

wormwood
2007-02-09, 03:05 PM
On the whole "Cthulhu will reform in 1dx minutes" thing, I seem to recall mention in one of the old Chaosium books of using a nuke against him. It said that you'd then get a reformed, and newly radioactive, cthulhu in 1dx minutes. That, my friends, is awesome.

Jothki
2007-02-09, 03:13 PM
If you can stat it, you can kill it. That sort of goes entirely against the entire premise of Lovecraftian horror, which is that we can no more combat these monstrosities directly than my goldfish can combat me.

A goldfish can probably take out a level 1 commoner in a fair fight.

Mewtarthio
2007-02-09, 03:31 PM
A goldfish can probably take out a level 1 commoner in a fair fight.

Well, obviously, if the fight is "fair." Honestly, the only way for a fight to truly be perfectly fair to both parties is to introduce enough handicaps that each side has a fifty percent chance of winning. So, really, a tapeworm has a fifty percent chance of killing Cthulhu in a fair fight. It's just that fighting an Elder God is inherently one-sided.

Tengu
2007-02-09, 03:35 PM
Would Cthulhu win with The Kobold Whose Name Shall Remain Unspoken?

Provided that the fight takes place in some bizzare world where both Lovercraftian Mythos and Sarrukh exist.

Belkarseviltwin
2007-02-09, 04:49 PM
Would Cthulhu win with The Kobold Whose Name Shall Remain Unspoken?

Provided that the fight takes place in some bizzare world where both Lovercraftian Mythos and Sarrukh exist.

No. TKWNSRU picks up Cthulhu, and throws him into the sun. Then goes insane. Even his +infinity Will Save can't save him...

volrathxp
2007-02-09, 06:26 PM
No. TKWNSRU picks up Cthulhu, and throws him into the sun. Then goes insane. Even his +infinity Will Save can't save him...

pwned.

I hadn't seen this before, sounds interesting.

Grey Paladin
2007-02-09, 07:18 PM
I recall seeing 2E stats of Cthulu when D&D still officially used the Lovecraftian Genesis as canon, he was level 86 (or 96) and had infinite HP, immunity to all spells of level 11 or lower, and if you saw him you had to make an insane amount of saving throws at huge penalties or immediately go insane, the only maneuver(s) beside 12 level spells that effected him was Wish and Miracle assuming an over deity answered the Miracle for some reason.

12 level spells could kill the guy (optional rules for spell-progression past level 9, forgotten realms specific ((yup, a splatbook)) based on the fact that according to canon FR there was this wizard that made a 12th level spell that kills a Deity and infuses the caster with its powers ), but considering the fact most 2E characters never got past level 7 and level 9 characters were considered legendary and pre-epic ...

conclusion: Combining FR and Lovecraft is utterly ridiculous

SpiderBrigade
2007-02-09, 09:17 PM
I recall seeing 2E stats of Cthulu when D&D still officially used the Lovecraftian Genesis as canon, he was level 86 (or 96) and had infinite HP, immunity to all spells of level 11 or lower, and if you saw him you had to make an insane amount of saving throws at huge penalties or immediately go insane, the only maneuver(s) beside 12 level spells that effected him was Wish and Miracle assuming an over deity answered the Miracle for some reason.
2 things, first off what in the world is "the Lovecraftian Genesis? It sounds sacrilicious. :smalltongue:

2d...12th level spells? I'm no expert on AD&D 2d edition, but I thought it was 1-9 like it is now?

Krimm_Blackleaf
2007-02-09, 10:16 PM
Hmm. How much blood are we talking about?
Not too much, but at least it's really sugary! :smallbiggrin:

...No, seriously, I think I'm dying...

NecroPaladin
2007-02-09, 11:01 PM
If you can stat it, you can kill it. That sort of goes entirely against the entire premise of Lovecraftian horror, which is that we can no more combat these monstrosities directly than my goldfish can combat me.

Actually, there is a Darwin Award of a fisherman who didn't want to wait for his catch to "drown," so tried to bite it to death, and it slid down his throat blocking his windpipe. He suffocated to death and fell into the water, releasing the fish. True story. So actually, if C'thulhu tried to bite you...

Closet_Skeleton
2007-02-10, 03:40 AM
2 things, first off what in the world is "the Lovecraftian Genesis? It sounds sacrilicious. :smalltongue:

2d...12th level spells? I'm no expert on AD&D 2d edition, but I thought it was 1-9 like it is now?

Forgotten Realms had spells up to 12th level but I think 12th level spells where banned by Mystra and the only 12th level spell was Karsus' Avatar. Then again, in 2nd ed divine magic only went up to 7th level. I wonder how that would screw over CoDzilla but it's a topic for another thread.

Several Lovecraft stories describe a Genesis style scenario but the idea that there's one single Cthulhu mythos all his stories abide to doesn't really hold up.

Thomas
2007-02-10, 03:55 AM
Spells over 10th level and above only existed during Netheril, yeah. After Karsus cast Karsus' Avatar and destroyed Mystrul (and disrupted the Weave), Mystra was "born," and blocked magic above 9th level; in the new 3rd edition mythology/reality, epic spells were then developed to replace the old 10th- and above-level spells.

bosssmiley
2007-02-10, 05:48 AM
1d6 Adventurers per round.

'Nuff said.

Greatest! Damage score! EVAR! :smallbiggrin:


There was also a Macho Women With Guns scenario/campaign that sent the players up against Bthulhu, the Hawaiian/Malibu surfpunk version of Cthulhu.
There were a few others... "Call of Computer" featured some Paranoia troubleshooters squaring off against Big-C with zorgs/mecha (author used to run this at Origins quite a bit).
And there was a HOL scenario in Shadis, "A HOL Lot of Trouble", but I can't recall if it was all that playable or just an excuse to kill PCs.

Cthulhu and HOL combined? Sweeeeeeeet. Just make the players tear up their char sheets at the start of play and save about 3 minutes. :smallamused: