High-Psionics campaigns?

[atemu1234]

I'm working on a campaign setting that is magic-free, but uses large amounts of psionics and takes place in a more modern setting. For skills I'm thinking about going CoCD20, with the only race being humans. Will this cause any problems?

[Larkas]

I don't think so. Just keep in mind that psionics is a lot (as in, a LOT) like magic, but instead of waving dried lizards and chanting weird words there's a lot of concentrating really hard and weird glyphs on people's foreheads. It might actually feel a lot like High-Magic, banking on the steampunk side due to the desired modernity.

[HaikenEdge]

I'm not familiar with the COC skills, but in my experience, high psionics is no different than high magic in terms of gameplay/power levels, and human only shouldn't really be a problem as long as it's self-consistent within the setting.

[Dr. Azkur]

What is CoC d20?
...
...
Is it Corruption of Champions d20? Please tell me I'm right.

And in topic: There are two main differences between psionics and magic: Flavour and the power point mechanic. Psionics tend to be related with high-tech settings (and I like that high-tech feel, a lot, but not when it meets magic. I'd play it in a campaign like yours), thing is... it can very easily be refluffed into magic, just less "talisman and bat poop" magic than the one we already have, and more "magic is in me, I can control it with a thought!" kind of magic, because the psion power list and the sor/wiz spell list are very alike. And I actually like power points much more than Vancian magic... Mana is just cooler.

[Psyren]

I'm guessing CoC = Call of Cthulhu.

Psionics has several gaps when compared to magic systems, most notably efficient/low-level healing/buffing, varied summoning and just about all necromancy. If you intend to do a psionics-only setting, I strongly suggest using Dreamscarred Press's third-party psionics as a starting point, as they have filled many of these gaps (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/psionic-power-index).

[Dr. Azkur]

Oh damn, of course!
I AM SLIGHTLY DISAPPOINTED.

[atemu1234]

We don't really intend to use Necromancy, but healing will be an issue. You recommend dreamscarred for that?

[Psyren]

We don't really intend to use Necromancy, but healing will be an issue. You recommend dreamscarred for that?

Yes; here are some examples:

- They created the Vitalist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/vitalist) and Tactician (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/tactician) base classes which can heal and buff the party with personal-range powers at low levels.
- They modified Egoists (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/psion/psionic-disciplines/psychometabolism) to be able to manifest personal-range psychometabolism powers on others in the party at mid-levels.
- They created psionic versions of common magical buffs, e.g. Haste (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/p/physical-acceleration) and True Strike. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/i/inevitable-strike) Many of these are personal-range, but can be shared with the party using the above classes or by other means.
- Stronger healing options were added, such as more efficient low-level healing via Natural Healing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/n/natural-healing) and Cleanse Body (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/c/cleanse-body) (effectively: Psionic Lesser Restoration, which did not previously exist). We also have more efficient high-level healing via Heal Injuries (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/h/heal-injuries) (Heal) and Cleanse Spirit (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/c/cleanse-spirit) (Psionic Restoration + Greater Restoration, the latter of which did not previously exist either.) Finally, augments were added to buff existing powers like Aura Alteration, Concealing Amorpha and Detect Psionics to make them more party-friendly.

[Rubik]

What is CoC d20?
...
...
Is it Corruption of Champions d20? Please tell me I'm right.

And in topic: There are two main differences between psionics and magic: Flavour and the power point mechanic. Psionics tend to be related with high-tech settings (and I like that high-tech feel, a lot, but not when it meets magic. I'd play it in a campaign like yours), thing is... it can very easily be refluffed into magic, just less "talisman and bat poop" magic than the one we already have, and more "magic is in me, I can control it with a thought!" kind of magic, because the psion power list and the sor/wiz spell list are very alike. And I actually like power points much more than Vancian magic... Mana is just cooler.Psionics is less "sci-fi" and more "modern fantasy, with possible use in sci-fi settings." I have yet to see a fantasy story outside of Jack Vance or D&D-specific fiction (other than Discworld, which parodies those) that uses D&D-type magic. Everything seems to work like psionics, though occasionally you'll have a setting that requires a focus for casting (such as in the Harry Potter books).

Can you name two series in modern fiction where magic works anything like in D&D that isn't D&D or Vance, where you fire-and-forget? Can you name name twenty stories that work like psionics does, with a number of known abilities and a limited amount of stamina to cast from?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Dark Souls one and two have a sort of Vancian magic system.

[Dr. Azkur]

Psionics is less "sci-fi" and more "modern fantasy, with possible use in sci-fi settings." I have yet to see a fantasy story outside of Jack Vance or D&D-specific fiction (other than Discworld, which parodies those) that uses D&D-type magic. Everything seems to work like psionics, though occasionally you'll have a setting that requires a focus for casting (such as in the Harry Potter books).

Can you name two series in modern fiction where magic works anything like in D&D that isn't D&D or Vance, where you fire-and-forget? Can you name name twenty stories that work like psionics does, with a number of known abilities and a limited amount of stamina to cast from?

Of course I can!
The Legends of Ethshar's has Wizardry, one of the various forms of magic, which is Vancian. Magic in Garrett, P.I. is hinted to work this way. I believe Merlin from The Chronicles of Amber uses magic like this too. Young Wizards by Diane Duane, quite to the letter.
Magic The Gathering is described like this in several of its novels. And the game is played in a strange amalgam between Power Point and Vancian magic.
Shinigami magic from Bleach is explicitly Vancian.
And if I'm not wrong... magic users in Conan The Barbarian were restricted in this way.

Then there are many videogames, which I'm not going into.

Either way, my cubical friend, my point was that as Psionics are presented in D&D, they are given a flavour that coincides much more with Sci-Fi's mind powers, rather than the popular magic we're all used to. I know Power Point magic is way more popular, but Power Point ≠ Psionics => Power Point + Psionic Fluff = Psionics. And Psionics ≠ Pop Culture Magic, even if Pop Culture Magic = Power Point + "X Fluff"

[Psyren]

@ Dr. Azkur:

1) Even if there are examples of Vance-esque magic in literature, I would argue that the "limited repertoire + stamina/resource pool to fuel it" model is still the more common of the two and is linked to medieval-flavored fantasy magic just as much if not more than it is to more futuristic/science fiction settings.

2) I didn't see any Vancian casting in Bleach; not sure where that belief is coming from. We see several characters (e.g. Rukia) cast the same spell multiple times in succession, though of course magic is typically less useful in Bleach because that series is all about the power of sword > all.

3) While you're correct about M:TG using a hybrid of vancian and points, it's worth noting that in-universe, the vancian nature of their spellcasting is a product of the planeswalker duel system itself. Outside of that rigid framework, when casters aren't in formalized competition and have access to all their spells (and can even make new ones on the fly), it works much more like psionics. An example is in the Invasion novels, when Barrin's rage at losing a loved one leads to him pulling in a bunch of mana and overchanneling it to wipe out Tolaria (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=23098) with a brand new spell.



Other examples: Wheel of Time and A Song of Ice & Fire both have magic systems closer to psionics than Vancian. Harry Potter appears to use an at-will system with a wand-based focus. Somatic components aside, Airbender is definitely closer to psionics than Vancian. On the anime front, Fullmetal Alchemist isn't Vancian either, nor are Fairy Tail/Naruto/D. Gray-Man.

[Prime32]

Shinigami magic from Bleach is explicitly Vancian.It has incantations (which a sufficiently skilled caster can ignore), and spells are divided into levels based on power and difficulty to cast; that doesn't make it Vancian. In particular, each spell isn't limited to a single effect - Red Flame Cannon is normally a ranged attack, but we've seen Renji cast it at low power to use it as a light source and at max power to create a point-blank explosion.

[Graypairofsocks]

We don't really intend to use Necromancy, but healing will be an issue. You recommend dreamscarred for that?

There is also this official psionic PrC specializing in healing: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625c

And also some old psionic powers which are relatively easy to update(from 3rd edition): http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pse/20020525b

Note that 0 level powers don't exist anymore and some of these powers are defunct as revised versions of them are in the XPH, so you will want to ignore those.

Also each school of psionics used to be keyed to a different ability score(or similar) so you will also want to disregard that part.

By the way the accelerated metabolism powers are like the psionic equivalent of vigor.

[Dr. Azkur]

I did say I know Vancian is not as common as power pooled magic. We are discussing different things. I brought forth the examples I knew because they were accused of non-existent.

You're saying that in fiction the mechanic of magic is closer to Psionic than to Vancian magic. That is clear and beyond arguing.

I'm saying that the fluff given to Psionics in 3.5 does not match the arcane nature that medieval/high/classic/epic fantasy tends to give to magic regardless of whatever mechanic (Power Points or Vancian) casters seem to be using, and slide more easily into other, more technologically-focused settings, such as Star Wars (Force Sensitives and Users), Looper (TK's), etc.

Either way I'm giving my opinion on what I think fits better, and what I have seen as much more common. If you think a medieval story could use Psionics as per the Expanded Psionics Handbook and Complete Psionic, then that's your particular take on the subject, and I probably would be very interested on how you would develop it.

[Rubik]

I did say I know Vancian is not as common as power pooled magic. We are discussing different things. I brought forth the examples I knew because they were accused of non-existent.

You're saying that in fiction the mechanic of magic is closer to Psionic than to Vancian magic. That is clear and beyond arguing.

I'm saying that the fluff given to Psionics in 3.5 does not match the arcane nature that medieval/high/classic/epic fantasy tends to give to magic regardless of whatever mechanic (Power Points or Vancian) casters seem to be using, and slide more easily into other, more technologically-focused settings, such as Star Wars (Force Sensitives and Users), Looper (TK's), etc.

Either way I'm giving my opinion on what I think fits better, and what I have seen as much more common. If you think a medieval story could use Psionics as per the Expanded Psionics Handbook and Complete Psionic, then that's your particular take on the subject, and I probably would be very interested on how you would develop it.Psionics is insanely easy to refluff. There are far fewer mechanics that enforce fluff than there are in other forms of magic (holy symbols, spellbooks, summoning diagrams, and so on), so there's virtually no baggage weighing you down when you want to change the fluff to something else.

So extant fluff is absolutely no reason to consider psionics any less "magical" than Vancian. Especially when you consider that the books the slot-based system are based on is a science fiction series, while psi-as-written is based on real world magic and mysticism. (See: Hinduism and Buddhism.)

[Dr. Azkur]

Psionics is insanely easy to refluff. There are far fewer mechanics that enforce fluff than there are in other forms of magic (holy symbols, spellbooks, summoning diagrams, and so on), so there's virtually no baggage weighing you down when you want to change the fluff to something else.

So extant fluff is absolutely no reason to consider psionics any less "magical" than Vancian. Especially when you consider that the books the slot-based system are based on is a science fiction series, while psi-as-written is based on real world magic and mysticism. (See: Hinduism and Buddhism.)

Quite. I agree with your point. Only thing I'll add is the correction that using "Psionics" and "Power Point Casting" shouldn't be used as synonyms, because they're not. You get "Psionics" when you take the Power Point system and you add the "Psionic" fluff presented in XPH (which is where both came most obviously attached).