Help think up army units for my PCs' army!

[Kol Korran]

Hi there! My party is playing through the Wrath of the Righteous AP. (There may be minor spoilers ahead, but minor). At some point they are to assemble an army to go fight demons and conquer a fortified city. This is using the PF mass combat rules, but that matters little.

i want to present to them several units that they may "purchase" (Recruit within limitations) to make up their army. I'm looking mostly for interesting units flavor wise, with possible slight mechanical effects. I want the units to have their own theme, feel, personality and possibly history. They don't need to be extensive, but I aim to give the units a feel better than "infantry unit number 4".

A bit of background: The PCs's city have been devastated, and though they saved quite a lot of people, a lot of other people, mainly higher levels are dead. This nation has been in war with demons for over a century now, so many may have cause and grief with said enemy.

General guidelines:
1) All units should be mostly composed of the same type of basic soldier- race, class and level. (For game mechanics to work, a simplification). levels go between 2-4.
2) Unit sizes are from 50-200.
3) No commanders please! These will be the PCs and some choice NPCs. A spokesman or leader of the unit, as their face can be quite good though!
4) If you have any idea of quirks, special abilities or such, please suggest, I'll try to translate these into game terms.
5) I'm NOT looking for the most powerful, efficient or bad ass units out there. I'm looking for military units that could be in the actual fantasy world.
6) This is going on in Mendev, In Kenabres. Mostly humans, but most other common races are there too. Common classes are the less magical, though magical classes may exist as well (Though much rarer).
7) Of course, anything tying to material in the AP is an extra bonus!

Ideas so far
1) Eagles of Kenabres: Remnants of the city's last defender, the eagle watch. 200 lvl 2 fighters. Equipped quite basically, but high moral.
2) First Ascendents: The mongrelmen who rose to fight alongside the defenders. 100 mongrelmen rogue 1. Equiped poorly, specialize in stealth and ambush attacks.
3) Sarkoris' revenge: 100 lvl 3 barbarians, who seek to revenge the destruction of their land. Can move faster and rage.

Any other ideas?

[Shining Wrath]

Aasimar volunteers. The plight of the city has been noised about, and a band of Aasimar have traveled from a not-too-distant land to fight the demons. So now you've got 50 L1 and L2 Paladins or Crusaders, high on morale and courage but low on practical demon-fighting experience.

Knights-errant. A bunch of LN Knights seeking honor and fame. The problem is that they each think of themselves as the natural leader of the band, so although lawful they are hard to manage.

The eagles are coming! The eagles are coming! And riding on their backs - halfling archers! The halflings of the next nation over know that if the demons destroy the city their land may well be next, and have dispatched their elite eagle-borne cavalry. 5 squads of 24 halflings, each riding a giant eagle, each of level 2. They are elite, they know they are elite, and will resist being committed to battle like cannon fodder.

Devils. They view this as part of the Blood War. The question is - do you trust them?

Mercenaries. Skilled fighters equipped with pole arms and studded leather. They know the need is great and so their price is high. They will fight as a unit, and withdraw as a unit. And withdraw they will if it appears the day (or even their part of the field) is lost.

[VoxRationis]

A heavy infantry unit using tower shields to make the front line while the back rank hurls acid, holy water, or alchemist's fire over the top.
Perhaps associated with the above unit, a group of pavoise crossbowmen.

Grey elves (are those in pathfinder? I can't remember) all armed with wands of magic missile (what else would grey elves learn besides wizardry, with an Int bonus and two physical stat penalties?).

Ogres with spiked chains, Cleave, and trip emphasis, supported by a manipular formation of hobgoblin infantry.

Early-period samurai—that is, heavily armored composite longbowmen on horseback.

Charioteers using glaives, riding by the right side of a formation and striking at the unshielded flank.

Dwarven war wagons with mounted ballistae.

Hwacha. Just hwacha. I don't care if there aren't rules for it. Pathfinder already has gunpowder, if I recall correctly. Invoke poor reload times if you're worried about them being too effective.

[Shining Wrath]

Dwarven combat engineers. They march out in between the two armies and while 1/3 use tower shields to provide cover the other 2/3 build field fortifications. Then they pull out the heavy crossbows. YOU try getting a bunch of dug-in dwarves out of their fortifications, or going around the range of heavy crossbows. The tower shields get incorporated into the fortifications near the end.

A mysterious wizard who teleports about the field throwing lightning bolts into the enemy. Why is he there? What are his goals? No one knows.

[VoxRationis]

Dwarven combat engineers. They march out in between the two armies and while 1/3 use tower shields to provide cover the other 2/3 build field fortifications. Then they pull out the heavy crossbows. YOU try getting a bunch of dug-in dwarves out of their fortifications, or going around the range of heavy crossbows. The tower shields get incorporated into the fortifications near the end.


I feel like demons would be a very melee-heavy, charge-happy army; it'd be difficult to provide enough cover to stop them from overrunning the combat engineers, unless you had enough distance between the two that the cover didn't matter. And dwarves only have +2 to Constitution; they aren't going to be that difficult for 3 HD dretches to tear into.

[Ellowryn]

Heroes of Battle has some quick and easy armies available, in varying races and sizes, and also comes with pregened individual models. Obviously some of the above suggestions are nice for some of the more unique options to buy, but for simplicity HoB has what you need.

[Shining Wrath]

I feel like demons would be a very melee-heavy, charge-happy army; it'd be difficult to provide enough cover to stop them from overrunning the combat engineers, unless you had enough distance between the two that the cover didn't matter. And dwarves only have +2 to Constitution; they aren't going to be that difficult for 3 HD dretches to tear into.

This doesn't work if the demons are ready to charge as the combat engineers take the field. It's more a matter of identifying the high ground, getting there before the battle starts, and taking it. Your goal is to be Lee at Fredricksburg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Fredericksburg).

[Envyus]

Can't all demons teleport. Using ranged combat against them seems like a bad idea as they can teleport into your army.

[VoxRationis]

Point. Shine your forces' shields and armor to mirror brightness and carry standards of crystal. The combination of reflection and refraction will make it too difficult to see what's going on when looking upon the army from afar, and the demons won't be able to teleport into your forces.
The teleportation abilities of outsiders are really annoying like that; it's tough to justify epic, traditional tactics when every soldier in the Great War Between Good and Evil can teleport at will.

[IslandDog]

A contingent of clerics, maybe only 25 strong, rustled up from the city's churches.

A band of hunters (level 1 rangers or ranged fighters) from the outskirts of the city/outlying farms

Street gangs, low levels rogues etc, found in the slums

A cabal of a secret cult that's been in hiding until now but just fight out of self preservation (vampires? Warlocks? Binders?)

All of these could even include a side quest to gain their trust/willingness to fight (this may be irrelevant - I've never even heard of your setting :p)

[Aergoth]

The Silver Banner, retired crusaders or knights from Lastwall and the surrounding regions, well beyond their prime but seeking to die with glory and honour on the field of battle. 3rd or 4th level cavaliers/paladins. All mounted and featuring heavy armor and lance. Probably don't number more than fifty. They may only have one last charge in them, but by god it will be something to remember. Likely very high morale, reasonable defense and well equipped. Probably refuse to use any kind of ambush tactics and prefer to ride in the vanguard of any attack.

Conscripts, an assorted group of deserters from the worldwound, injured survivors from the previous battle with little chance of recieving proper healing, and others generally considered unfit for service under normal circumstances. Some of them face execution others a slow and lingering death. Likely a mixed group of warriors or fighters with some disgraced cavaliers, mostly level 2-3, poor morale and defences, reasonable offense. Many are perfectly willing to engage in whatever mad, disgraceful or otherwise underhanded scheming that might be needed to get the job done. Many know they likely wouldn't escape with their lives anyways and this may give them a last chance to go out without tarnishing a family name or their memory to any loved ones.

Rabble. Basically an unruly mob of civilians stirred to war by bold statements, fresh wounds and a desire for vengeance. Full of vinegar, likely only works as cannon fodder. Poorly equipped (pitchforks and whatnot), mostly commoners 1-2, but large in numbers. Likely incapable of any complex tactics.

Gorrumite Horde, mostly orcs from Belkzen led by visions of glorious battle to come. Largely fighters, medium armor assorted weapons of reasonable quality, roughly 150 strong. May posess warpriests and have access to healing.

[FabulousFizban]

bear cavalry
there are druids in the estrovian forest, and they have as much a reason to protect Mendev as the crusaders do.

[Seerow]

3) No commanders please! These will be the PCs and some choice NPCs. A spokesman or leader of the unit, as their face can be quite good though!


What power scale are the PCs on? From the rest of your post, I got the impression you had high level characters, and were looking to flesh out a massive army for them to command in a war against hell. This makes it sound more like the characters are around level 6-10, and will only have a hundred or so soldiers under them each, which most likely means a much smaller scale conflict. Which it is makes a huge difference in what kinds of tactics to expect, and also what kinds of units are acceptable. If the PCs are low level and this is a small scale conflict, your restrictions on levels/numbers makes sense. If they're higher level, being able to have elite units with higher level creatures is something that you'd want to see. Whether that's a squad of mid level mages/artificers from the mage's guild, or a group of Treants who come to answer the party Druid's call for aid, or a squad of griffon riding dwarven alchemists who drop alchemy bombs on enemies... there's a lot of cool high fantasy options that you can't quite get with levels 1-4.

Also, are the PCs getting any say in what the troop composition is, or are you just laying out what's there, and each PC gets to pick a squad to take command of?


Anyway, a few things to toss in.

Mountain Archers: Think the Cragtop Archer prestige class, but in low level unit form. Specialize in taking the high ground and raining down death from a distance that is much farther than average, taking enemies by surprise.

Commando Squad: Squad of 50 (min size) level 4 (max level) rogues or scouts out for speed, stealth, and utility. This group is all about getting in behind enemy lines, achieving an objective, and getting back out unnoticed. An ideal squad for a roguish character who doesn't want to be on the front lines to be leading.

Summoners: Okay, so I don't play Pathfinder so I could be off on this... but I'm pretty sure a Summoner gets an Eidolon that can fight for him all day long, and like any good summon when it dies it just goes poof and can be summoned again the next day. Combine that with pretty good usage of Summon Monster and some spells... even a group of low level summoners is going to be a force to be reckoned with and will suffer a far lower casualty rate than other similar units.

Rabble: An larger than normal size unit made up of misfits and castoffs who have no real training. Think a group of basically 1000 commoners. Any of the other units is likely a stronger choice, but a PC who wants to protect the weak might take a personal interest in working with them. Or a PC with an interest in doing something specific might decide he wants to take the training of this rabble in hand (though from the sounds of it there's no real time for that). Or a PC who has large scale buffs (see: Bard), might decide they want this group because it lets their force multipliers have the greatest effect.

[edit: Seems I took too long sitting on this reply and someone else beat me to the rabble. On that note, I second the suggestion someone else made of a group of Cultist Binders. Fits the flavor perfectly, and provides some extra magical diversity in a way that is useful in an extended battle]

[Zalphon]

First Infantry Battalion (The Honor Guard)

Approximately 1000 Men

1 3rd Level Fighter: Major Jack Black, Commanding Officer
1 3rd Level Fighter: Captain Sam Bam, Executive Officer
1 3rd Level Cleric: Captain Richard Moreau, Chief Medical Officer
1 3rd Level Wizard: Captain Daniel Mann, Chief Magic Officer
1 3rd Level Rogue: Captain Richard Dawn, Chief Recon Officer
1 2nd Level Commoner: Captain Francis Boomer, Operations Officers
1 4th Level Fighter: Command Sergeant Major Z, Senior Enlisted Adviser

Alpha Company

1 2nd Level Fighter: Captain Jim Parsons, Commanding Officer
1 2nd Level Fighter: Lieutenant Michael Moore, Executive Officer
1 3rd Level Fighter: First Sergeant Jack Bean, First Sergeant

200 1st Level Fighters
20 1st Level Clerics

Bravo Company

1 2nd Level Fighter: Captain Blahblahblah Blahblahblah, Commanding Officer
1 2nd Level Fighter: Lieutenant Joe Schmoe, Executive Officer
1 3rd Level Wizard: First Sergeant Jim Kirk

150 1st Level Fighters
50 1st Level Wizards
20 1st Level Clerics

You'd have a Charlie and Delta company as well. But this is a hypothetical example of a military unit you'd have that the city already has. Yes, it'd have commanders--but the players would be commanding the battlefield and thus would outrank them.

[Kol Korran]

Wow! So many great answers! Thanks folks! :smallsmile: There are some great ideas out there, and some things I may need to clarify. The party will start at fifth level but after a few battles will get to 6th level. They will have 2-3 other NPCs who can function as commanders. I expect most (If not all) PCs to take charge of a unit of some sort, between 50-200 soldiers worth, total about 800-1200 soldiers total. This is a small army that is supposed to make quick movement towards an enemy city of demons, cultists and tieflings, and take it over.

While the army will face demons, these are mostly low level demons, from the Dretch up to the Schir approximately (CR 4), none of which can teleport. I may put a small unit of higher CR demons (Brimoraks perhaps?) That can teleport, to confuse stuff, but they will be the exception, not the general.

The PF adventure rules assumes that each unit (They call it "army") is composed of basically the same kind of individuals. Mounts, different equipment and other special abilities are dealt with by "Resources", "Tactics" and such...

Ok, let me respond to a few stuff.


Aasimar volunteers. This is great! The two main strategists PCs are Aasimar, one of them a paladin himself. This could play nicely into "what is a paladin" or such. Paladins make an EXCELLENT low level base unit, so they will be quite special. This sounds very promising!


Knights-errant. A bunch of LN Knights seeking honor and fame. The problem is that they each think of themselves as the natural leader of the band, so although lawful they are hard to manage. I can see some roleplay potential here, but once they are assigned a commander, I assume most arguments will soon stop, or just be irritating. I feel this may have potential though, I'll need to think about it.


The eagles are coming! The eagles are coming! halfling eagle riders Hmmm, this is a very intriguing idea... An aerial scouting force? But that may be quite vulnerable. Hmmmm. Not sure I want to involve aerial battles here, but this is interesting.


Devils. They view this as part of the Blood War. Though I understand their involvement, they do not quite fit to the story.


Mercenaries. Of course! How could I forget! 1-3 bands of mercenaries might be interesting to put in. Their moral could be a matter of payment or such. Sounds good!


Bunch of fabulous ideas!They would sound great to D&D 3.5 Heroes of battle scenarios, but are not quite fitting to the more rigid rules of PF. But cool factor matters! I think I may put some such ideas (More from the demons side, with a few flavor changes :smallamused:) to put some "personal encounters" mid battle.


Dwarven combat engineers. While the army's mission means they will always be advancing on enemy's territory, and I don't think the tactic might work, I do like the idea of combat engineers. They might be able to build makeshift bridges to cross rivers, they might be able to ovr come obstacles, fortifications and the like. Great Idea!


A mysterious wizard who teleports about the field throwing lightning bolts into the enemy. Why is he there? What are his goals? No one knows. Putting some sort of a random demon or such teleporting through the battlefield may be an interesting distraction, and a mission for some of the PCs. This sounds great, thanks!


Heroes of Battle has some quick and easy armies available Thanks! I will check them out. I was looking more for the flavor behind units, something to make them stand out more than "legion number 3".


Can't all demons teleport. Using ranged combat against them seems like a bad idea as they can teleport into your army.
They will be facing low level demons, nearly none of them can teleport... They can summon though! :smallbiggrin:


A contingent of clerics, maybe only 25 strong, rustled up from the city's churches.

A band of hunters (level 1 rangers or ranged fighters) from the outskirts of the city/outlying farms

Street gangs, low levels rogues etc, found in the slums

A cabal of a secret cult that's been in hiding until now but just fight out of self preservation (vampires? Warlocks? Binders?)

All of these could even include a side quest to gain their trust/willingness to fight (this may be irrelevant - I've never even heard of your setting :p)
The setting is Golarion, it's just an AP in it. I like the ideas, but will need to refurnish them a bit more, to make them more suited to the setting, but it sounds great! Thanks!


The Silver Banner, retired crusaders or knights from Lastwall
I like the idea of the veteran who keep "giving advice" to the younglings, but proving quite courageous. Might reduces their hit points a bit, but raise their moral high. Good idea, thanks!


Conscripts, an assorted group of deserters from the worldwound, injured survivors from the previous battle with little chance of recieving proper healing, and others generally considered unfit for service under normal circumstances. Some of them face execution others a slow and lingering death. Likely a mixed group of warriors or fighters with some disgraced cavaliers, mostly level 2-3, poor morale and defences, reasonable offense. Many are perfectly willing to engage in whatever mad, disgraceful or otherwise underhanded scheming that might be needed to get the job done. Many know they likely wouldn't escape with their lives anyways and this may give them a last chance to go out without tarnishing a family name or their memory to any loved ones. Hmmmm, This may be interesting. A great deal of the low ranks attacking forces were cultists and tieflings. Cultists may try to hide, but tieflings? I think quite a few might be caught. The party might face an interesting dilemma- executing them, or accepting them to service, but be worried if they might betray them. This has great potential really... If we add the Aasimar group mentioned above, this can lead to quite interesting play.


Rabble. Basically an unruly mob of civilians stirred to war by bold statements, fresh wounds and a desire for vengeance. Full of vinegar, likely only works as cannon fodder. Poorly equipped (pitchforks and whatnot), mostly commoners 1-2, but large in numbers. Likely incapable of any complex tactics. These, a basic type of militia, and a basic new army unit are the only types of units the PCs will be able to get as much as they might be able to acquire. Unleash the commoner's horde!


Gorrumite Horde, mostly orcs from Belkzen led by visions of glorious battle to come. Largely fighters, medium armor assorted weapons of reasonable quality, roughly 150 strong. May posess warpriests and have access to healing. Orcs might be a problem here, but with some changes it can be dwarves or a few others. The Sarkoris' unit are currently the barbarians, but I'll see about it.


What power scale are the PCs on? From the rest of your post, I got the impression you had high level characters, and were looking to flesh out a massive army for them to command in a war against hell. This makes it sound more like the characters are around level 6-10, and will only have a hundred or so soldiers under them each, which most likely means a much smaller scale conflict. Which it is makes a huge difference in what kinds of tactics to expect, and also what kinds of units are acceptable. If the PCs are low level and this is a small scale conflict, your restrictions on levels/numbers makes sense. If they're higher level, being able to have elite units with higher level creatures is something that you'd want to see. Whether that's a squad of mid level mages/artificers from the mage's guild, or a group of Treants who come to answer the party Druid's call for aid, or a squad of griffon riding dwarven alchemists who drop alchemy bombs on enemies... there's a lot of cool high fantasy options that you can't quite get with levels 1-4. I hope the info at the beginning of the post explained this. I'm trying to currently keep this fairly simple in types of troops, and keep the complexity to strategy, tactics, maneuvering and such (I did some slight changes to the regular Mass Combat PF rules)


Also, are the PCs getting any say in what the troop composition is, or are you just laying out what's there, and each PC gets to pick a squad to take command of? The PCs will have a slew of basic units that may wish to join their army (They'll need to sort of "purchase" them. Doesn't matter for this discussion). However the party may have slight ability to customize them with a choice of commander (Between them and the few NPCs), and acquiring resources (Better weapons, healer, better scouts, potions and the like).

They may also assemble some basic units as they see fit, though those come with no known tactics. Each of the core units, but especially the new units may be trained in new tactics as the march to conquest continues and the army fights on.


Mountain Archers: Think the Cragtop Archer prestige class, but in low level unit form. Specialize in taking the high ground and raining down death from a distance that is much farther than average, taking enemies by surprise. I don't know the prestige class, but I'll look into it to get what you're meaning. I think you're meaning people who get to high ground and can shoot much farther? I'll need to see how that can be implemented. Sounds quite powerful,


Commando Squad: Squad of 50 (min size) level 4 (max level) rogues or scouts out for speed, stealth, and utility. This group is all about getting in behind enemy lines, achieving an objective, and getting back out unnoticed. An ideal squad for a roguish character who doesn't want to be on the front lines to be leading. Actually, the mongrelfolk unit is quite like that in a way. Hmmm, this can be a very expensive resource an army might buy. I'll need to figure out how to implement it. Otherwise it need to be an adventure on it's own. But it sounds like a cool idea that my players will love.


Summoners: Okay, so I don't play Pathfinder so I could be off on this... but I'm pretty sure a Summoner gets an Eidolon that can fight for him all day long, and like any good summon when it dies it just goes poof and can be summoned again the next day. Combine that with pretty good usage of Summon Monster and some spells... even a group of low level summoners is going to be a force to be reckoned with and will suffer a far lower casualty rate than other similar units. I'm a bit new to PF myself :smallsmile: But I intend the highly magical units to be quite rare to start with. A minimum of 50 of them might be quite problematic to explain. The Eidolons just add a bit of force to the army as I understand. I'll need to think about this. Thanks for pointing them out. They might have an interesting "Summoner of the unholy" kinda angle?
---------------------------------------------------
Thanks for the ideas everyone! They come mighty in handy! I'd love to see where this may lead!

[John Longarrow]

Mad Jack Churchill (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Churchill).

Who else do you need?

[Mizr]

The Kenebres Cataphract. 2/5's composed of Heavy Cavalry Knight esque characters, the other 3/5's more lightly armed horse archers. The horse archers circle and do their thing, and should the demons advance on them, the Heavy Cavalry is standing by to charge.

[Shining Wrath]

Mad Jack Churchill (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Churchill).

Who else do you need?

Sorry, this is not an epic level campaign, and Mad Jack is EPIC.

[Shining Wrath]

One more: the Dark Harvesters.

See, some wizards want to research spells. And the spells they want to research use demon parts as material components.

But it's difficult to get demon parts because slain demons normally disappear and go back to the plane they came from.

Enter the Dark Harvesters. Their skill set is to be able to capture demons alive and remove assorted body parts of interest, put the parts into bags of holding or other extra-dimensional spaces, and then finish off the demon.

Since the spells are considered black magic, and since even the most fanatic of LG people has a problem with vivisection performed on a living sentient being, even a demon, the Dark Harvesters usually do their work in the shadows. Under these circumstances, though, they are willing to work in cooperation with the army - so long as they can go about their business on the battlefield.

[Coidzor]

A specialized group of Rust Monster cavalry is always fun. Between the potential of darkleaf, darkwood, and stone armors and wooden and stone weaponry, equipment seems to take care of itself. Rust Monsters aren't that much higher of a CR than warhorses, though if you advance (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/simple-template-giant-cr-1)them to be Large for Medium-sized riders, I suppose they might get a little bit much with CR 4, but you wouldn't really want all that large of a unit anyway, at least not without a source of walls of iron to take care of feeding them nigh-indefinitely.

So I'd say on the small side, 50 in the unit(which, plus their mounts makes for 100 creatures anyway). My tendency is towards dwarves riding them, possibly dwarf barbarians maybe rangers(I'd say mounted combat or two-handed combat style without some kind of archetype play going on). Hide Armor, Leather(or Wooden) light armor barding, and (stone) lances along with stone maces or morningstars or clubs and stone daggers.

Seems like it would be unlikely for them to be anything other than mercenaries unless there's a particular dwarf hold they're on loan from, since without some tweaking they'd need to keep moving or have a lot of mundane resources devoted to keeping them fed or some decent-leveled magic.

[Seerow]

I don't know the prestige class, but I'll look into it to get what you're meaning. I think you're meaning people who get to high ground and can shoot much farther? I'll need to see how that can be implemented. Sounds quite powerful,


It's actually pretty weak for a player character, but a similar ability set on a unit would be pretty effective. Basically they'd be artillery, sitting at long distances picking off priority targets who are unsuspecting that they are being threatened.

You should be able to google and find it, but it's from Races of Stone and the main features include reduced penalties from distance (both for to-hit rolls and spot); being able to fire out further range increments than normal; and make a single attack as a full round action with no penalties for distance. Get a squad of 50 longbowmen with a similar ability set with the Far Shot feat, and it's not unreasonable to hit a target accurately from half a mile away, which is nice.




Also, for what it's worth I disagree with making magical units rare. I can understand magical beasts and such being rare, but if you're making units of thousands with Player Character classes, it takes exactly as much effort to train to be a Warlock or an Artificer as it does to be a Fighter. While most casters at level 1-4 aren't going to be particularly effective for an extended campaign, so you probably don't want them even if they are available (or at least not on the front lines. Having them play support/utility can be very effective), the magical classes that do have the stamina to be effective at those levels (Warlocks, Binders, DFAs, Bards, Summoners, etc) should totally be available in some form.


While the army's mission means they will always be advancing on enemy's territory, and I don't think the tactic might work, I do like the idea of combat engineers. They might be able to build makeshift bridges to cross rivers, they might be able to ovr come obstacles, fortifications and the like. Great Idea!


I know the dwarven engineers weren't my idea, but I actually really liked the idea. It's especially useful for the exact situation you're describing. If the PCs decide to go for a slower more cautious strategy, a group of siege engineers that can make a small fort in the field in a short period of time while the rest of the army defends them is a great way to gain and hold ground while pushing the advance slowly.

[VoxRationis]

Speaking of Warlocks, use mounted warlocks that summon swarms onto the enemy. If they want to deal with the swarms, they have to use their AoE damage spells, and each one they use against the swarms is one they aren't using against the army.

[Coidzor]

Also, for what it's worth I disagree with making magical units rare. I can understand magical beasts and such being rare, but if you're making units of thousands with Player Character classes, it takes exactly as much effort to train to be a Warlock or an Artificer as it does to be a Fighter. While most casters at level 1-4 aren't going to be particularly effective for an extended campaign, so you probably don't want them even if they are available (or at least not on the front lines. Having them play support/utility can be very effective), the magical classes that do have the stamina to be effective at those levels (Warlocks, Binders, DFAs, Bards, Summoners, etc) should totally be available in some form.

A wardrum and fife corps distributed throughout the battlefield would definitely be a force multiplier, though I'm not aware of how Pathfinder would interact with this sort of thing.

I suspect either they didn't think of it at all so you'd have to draw upon 3.5, or cobble it together yourself, or they decided that bards being able to effect entire units with bardic music was too OP and gimped it something awful.

Edit: After checking what I could find, it seems to be a definite waste of time and resources, since it would only apply to an entire group of bards fighting by themselves and give barely anything.

[DCraw]

Definitely consider adding the occasional drummer or piper to some (or all) of the units. Give them a few Bard levels and the unit should be substantially more effective. It would also help you to build atmosphere to the scene as you describe the eerie sound of the pipes reverberating through the valley (bagpipes were basically an early form of psychological warfare), the thunder of the drums as the pikemen march in close formation, or the blare of the horns announcing a charge.

[Aergoth]

Definitely consider adding the occasional drummer or piper to some (or all) of the units. Give them a few Bard levels and the unit should be substantially more effective. It would also help you to build atmosphere to the scene as you describe the eerie sound of the pipes reverberating through the valley (bagpipes were basically an early form of psychological warfare), the thunder of the drums as the pikemen march in close formation, or the blare of the horns announcing a charge.
PF Mass combat rules don't really work like this.

[Shining Wrath]

Local Iron Heart Discipline school sends its most recent crop of Warblades to seek glory and honor on the Battlefield.

A force of 100 L1 Warblades in Punishing Stance hitting the foe with Steel Wind, mixed in with a few clerics to keep them on their feet, is going to make demons cry.

[John Longarrow]

As a concept, would either of the following work?
Bartlets Rangers
Halfling Javelin Skirmishers mounted on Wardogs

Scarlet Sisterhood
50 Lvl 1 warlocks (female) guarded by 50 fighters (Male) using tower shields to provide a quick portable wall. Females are formed into 10 squads of 5. Each squad targets one enemy at a time.

[Kol Korran]

Quite a few new responses, and one I missed somehow in my previous post:


First Infantry Battalion (The Honor Guard)

Approximately 1000 Men
....
Alpha Company
....
Bravo Company

I have no problem in making the units themselves. I was looking for a sort of flavor, history, personality for the units. But thanks!


Mad Jack Churchill (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Churchill).

Who else do you need?
Thank you, thank you, thank you! This is one of the most amazing people I've read about! Freaking awesome!


The Kenebres Cataphract. 2/5's composed of Heavy Cavalry Knight esque characters, the other 3/5's more lightly armed horse archers. The horse archers circle and do their thing, and should the demons advance on them, the Heavy Cavalry is standing by to charge.
The way PF units work is to have each unit composed out of a single type of individual for mechanics sake. The idea you suggested might work, but as two separate units who might work together. There are allready some ideas for heavy cavalry, but the idea of mounted archers might complement them nicely


One more: the Dark Harvesters.

] It's a cool idea, but story and setting wise they might be quite hard to explain. They might be worked in though, I need to think about it. They could put an interesting darker feel to the army. I need a "less evil" sound to their unit though


A specialized group of Rust Monster cavalry is always fun.That sounds like an idea I had a long time ago, of rust monster goblin cavalry. Problem is that since most demons fight with claw, tooth and SLAs, and are less prone to using weapons and armor (And then it's usually magic), the rust monster cavalry might be useful mostly against tieflings underlings, and that's it. And I'd wager the army itself won't like them around in case they get panicked or their spirit broken.

Cool idea though! :smallwink:


Cragtop archers] So the idea is of focused archers that can shoot far? Feats and PRCs don't really come into PF mass combat rules (A much more generalized approach) but I might be able to do something of the sort.


Also, for what it's worth I disagree with making magical units rare. I can understand magical beasts and such being rare, but if you're making units of thousands with Player Character classes, it takes exactly as much effort to train to be a Warlock or an Artificer as it does to be a Fighter. While most casters at level 1-4 aren't going to be particularly effective for an extended campaign, so you probably don't want them even if they are available (or at least not on the front lines. Having them play support/utility can be very effective), the magical classes that do have the stamina to be effective at those levels (Warlocks, Binders, DFAs, Bards, Summoners, etc) should totally be available in some form. We play with PF core rules for the most part, so Warlocks and binders are non existent, but I guess the same point might be made for sorcerers for example. Still, while they are no harder to train, I do imagine them being rarer than the more mundane classes. It may be a difference in opinion, but The warlock/ binder/ sorcerer are to my opinion (And most of my players), far less common than the more mundane professions. You need a special heritage, or to make some pact/ draw your power from demons/ make strange pacts or the like, while it's arguably easier (personality wise) to learn to fight. Yes, I know there may be arguments against my opinion, and they have their place, but this is how we'll play it.

That said, while I don't think there will be a unit of 100 sorcerers, I do think there might be much smaller units, enough for say... a "support casters" addition that could escort troops and lend magical help. This could go for wizards, bards, healers and the like. That can add nicely to the game I think.


I know the dwarven engineers weren't my idea, but I actually really liked the idea. It's especially useful for the exact situation you're describing. If the PCs decide to go for a slower more cautious strategy, a group of siege engineers that can make a small fort in the field in a short period of time while the rest of the army defends them is a great way to gain and hold ground while pushing the advance slowly. I like the idea of siege engineers as well, but their entire conquering crusade will take 14 days or less, and the demons on this front will be defeniding, not advancing, so building a small makeshift fort won't help much. Plus, these things take TIME, which the party won't have. I think the engineers main shtick will be overcoming obstacles and fortifications.


Definitely consider adding the occasional drummer or piper to some (or all) of the units. Give them a few Bard levels and the unit should be substantially more effective. It would also help you to build atmosphere to the scene as you describe the eerie sound of the pipes reverberating through the valley (bagpipes were basically an early form of psychological warfare), the thunder of the drums as the pikemen march in close formation, or the blare of the horns announcing a charge.


PF Mass combat rules don't really work like this.
See my idea for using bards of some sort as a sort of a "resource" above.


Local Iron Heart Discipline school sends its most recent crop of Warblades to seek glory and honor on the Battlefield.

A force of 100 L1 Warblades in Punishing Stance hitting the foe with Steel Wind, mixed in with a few clerics to keep them on their feet, is going to make demons cry.
We're playing a fairly straight PF, so no warblades. Also, by PF mass Combat rules it may be quite difficult to portray their abilities. I like the idea of a school or martial discipline though, and I'm not that familiar with the lore of the Nine Swords. What sort of flavor would you suggest for such a unit?


As a concept, would either of the following work?
Bartlets Rangers
Halfling Javelin Skirmishers mounted on Wardogs
What is Bartlets rangers? I like the idea of halflings mounted on dogs. What sort of of flavor would you have for this?

Scarlet Sisterhood
50 Lvl 1 warlocks (female) guarded by 50 fighters (Male) using tower shields to provide a quick portable wall. Females are formed into 10 squads of 5. Each squad targets one enemy at a time. [/QUOTE] Again, these would be 2 different units by PF mass combat rules. What sort of flavor do you see for them? Why the gender separation? I'm not using warlocks, but perhaps something else?
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Thanks all, keep em coming!

[Ikeren]

Squads of straight forward archers:

Level 1 Human, 16 Dex>>>14 Str>>>Con>>>Int>>>Wis>>>Cha, Fighter levels, 2 flaws (noncombattant, something else)
Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Far Shot, Deadly Aim. +1 Masterwork, Composite Bonus +2 bow.
Shoot +5 to 220 ft (1d8+2), or +3/+3 for 1d8+2, or +2/+2 for 1d8+3 damage. -2 for one further range increment (440 ft)

Level 3 Human elite archer, Fighter 2/Rogue 1, same stats:
Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Far Shot, Deadly Aim, Weapon Focus: Longbow, Plunging Shot,
+1 Magical Composite Bonus +2 bow.
Shoot +8 to 220 ft (1d8+3), or +6/+6 for 1d8+3, or +3/+3 for 1d8+6 damage. +1d6 damage if 30 feet above (put em on a cliff. -2 for one further range increment (440 ft). +1d6 if target flatfooted.

Put a bard with each squad: Level 2 bard/cloistered cleric 1, badge of valor (1400gp), inspirational boost (spell), the masterwork horn (Song and Silence 46): that gives +1 attack/damage, and words of creation as your third level feat. Give them all +8 attack/damage. (Or, if you rule words of creation differently, +5). Sit and sing, forever. Dragonfire inspiration possibly ruinously powerful.
Cleric 1's get Blessed Aim for +2 attack, and Druid 3's get spammable Snake's Swiftness, Mass, which lets everyone take another attack.

A couple squads of solid archers + appropriate buffers + appropriate blockers will destroy a mundane army of basically any size unless something magical blows the energy to bring them down at the start of the fight.

[NoACWarrior]

Pelor's Platoon of Pansy Paladins - 20-50x 1st level human paladins with the celestial template (sure they get SR6, but what kind of spell caster would fail that check!!)
They are ECL3 but only have 10-14HP each. Sure they get an additional smite evil, but why bother getting into melee? The 4P utilize longbows so they don't have to get into combat and are weary of being on the front lines. They take weapon focus in longbow, and extra smiting with their extra human feat. As a military unit the 4P are back line archery units, and are best suited guarding rear goat passes.

Kord's Knights of Kindness -100x 3rd level human knights (maybe half-aasimar, but thats kinda cheesy)
They take stand still (XPH) and take combat reflexes right away, and then take Deft Opportunist (CAdv) at 3rd level. Make sure that they use some type of high damage weapon which does subdual damage, so they don't start crying that they killed someone by accident. As a military unit the KKK are the front line charge breakers and disrupt enemies from entering your inner formations. They can be placed anywhere you anticipate being attacked and are ill suited versus ranged units. Kord demands that they use brute force (subdual) to deal with situations, so they won't likely back down from any fight (even if outnumbered). The KKK won't back down even if the enemy is using charging rhinos or elephants.

St. Cuthbert's Secret Silly Squad of Shadows - 10-15x 3rd level human shadow casters (if you really want to, give them the dark template, but its a +1)
They progress in the "dark terrain" path and either the "cloak of shadows" or the "shutters and clouds" path, making sure to take black fire as their 2nd level mystery, also taking path focus for that +1 and still mystery to be able to be cast while wearing some type of heavy armor (who cares about non-proficiency when your attacks are AoE anyways), lastly taking shadow cast so they can get their mysteries cast. As a military unit the 5S are your BFC, best suited for both front line and mid line control. Their major issue is that they are squishy, but toss fullplate on them and they are just like clerics. Their AoEs last a while (minutes per level), and while limited to one use per day, are VERY effective at stopping charging units, and damaging / punishing non-mobile units. Unlike other spell casters, they are exhausted after the first fight and require to be swapped out. They are likely your best battle tacticians, and can serve to help the commanders make educated battlefield decisions. In difficult terrain, the 5S totally gimp melee units, and with a choke destroy other units.

Bahamuts Dragon Shaman Medics - 10-20x 3rd level dragon shamans (possibly dragonborn)
Take HP feats, so that they are heartier than other units. With 10 DS you can get every aura available, if you are allowing dragon magic - give them those auras too. Sure, each aura isn't great, but when you stack each and every aura (which can affect ALL allies) it can get powerful. These guys should be your support units laced within your front liners, and are designed to tank when the front liner's are actually being attacked. With the right timing, your front line units can do what they need to do, and the BDSMs will take their place to suck up the damage.

[Coidzor]

The Rust Monsters would definitely need to be used in some kind of flanking maneuver or otherwise kept apart from the regular forces. I figured it'd definitely harm the morale of any weapon-using enemies they fought though. Thought there'd be more cultists and tieflings though from how you initially put it.

Ah, vell.

I'm trying to think of some other kind of exotic mounts and so far all I've got is possibly lizardfolk on wyverns or hippogriff ranger cavalry, but that'd be a bit tricksy with Golarion being as those people are all confined to Korvosa, IIRC.

[EisenKreutzer]

The wizards college (I'm assuming there is one, could be a guild or university or something) would of course send whatever forces it can muster to aid in the defence of the city.

The Apprentices
100 apprentice wizards (lvl 2) armed with wands of Magic Missile. Low morale.

The Faculty
20 lvl 5 Wizards casting Fireball. Also armed with Wands of an appropriate spell. High morale, but their lack of numbers and horrible melee skills means this unit is a glass cannon.

Then theres all sorts of other units that could reasonably be available.

The Watch
200 lvl 3 Fighters, with breastplates and polearms. These are the remnants of the city watch. They have average morale, but are all proficient in hand to hand combat, and are excellent grapplers and trippers (Improved Grapple, Improved Trip).

The Clockworks Guild Journeymen
The local Clockworks Guild has volunteered it's Journeymen to the fight. 100 Lvl 2 Gunslingers armed with muskets, high morale thanks to their superior weaponry, but no armor.

The Alchemists Guild Journeymen
The Alchemists Guild, not to be outdone by their hated Clockworks Guild rivals, have also "volunteered" some of their Journeymen to the defence. 100 lvl 2 Alchemists throwing bombs. Low morale thanks to being forced into combat, no armor, but when they all imbibe their Mutagens they change to great morale melee fighters for a few turns.

[John Longarrow]

Sir Charles Bartlet (wealthy halfling vintner) raised Bartlets Rangers from the from the communitites that service his grape fields. He has been maintaining them as a local malitia to patrol his lands and to safeguard his people. They are well disciplined and they rely upon their trained wardogs to provide security and tracking. Each of Bartlets Rangers is a skilled mounted combatant that excels with javelin, sling, lance, and sword. They were first raised almost 60 years ago and have faired well as both local constibles an as quick skirmishers for more heavily armored troops. Though clad only in studded leather, they use range and speed as their shield.

The Scarlet Sisterhood should work as a 50 person unit of warlocks. The other 50 would be considered as a "Property" that grants Cover at will. If this will work for your game I'll see if I can work out a good back story.

[Zweisteine]

A band of Aasimar mercenaries/vigilantes: The Shields of Heironeus (or an equivalent deity).

50 or so Aasimar Clerics, Paladins, Fighters, etc (of middle levels, probably)) who wader from place to place defending good civilizations from fiends and the undead. They just show up and help when they think help is needed to fight off an unholy invasion. They have an intelligence network that tells them where to go, and they simply show up.

Their banner is a magic item, which, once per day, can greater teleport all members of the group* within 60 feet. It also has a magic circle against evil and a dimensional anchor effect out to a 60 foot radius, to enable more effective fiend-fighting.


Also, if you're fighting demons, you might want to cut a deal with the devils... :smallamused:


*Becoming a member requires that you be an Aasimar, swear your life to the appropriate god, and undergo a ritual that marks you (magic tattoo!) as a member until you are kicked out (for breaking the rules, etc). If you're kicked out, the mark changes, and all/most Aasimars and some celestials can recognize you as an oathbreaker/traitor.

[Trasilor]

to be honest, I didn't read all the other posts...but any fantasy army should have a few bards (7 to be precise)

Human Bards level 3:

Feats:
Level 1: Dragon Touched - because who doesn't' have a little dragon blood in them :smallamused:
Level 1: Dragonfire Inspiriation
Level 3: Draconic Heritage (for 5 of them) to change Dragonfire damage to Sonic, Force, Cold, etc
Level 3: Song of the Heart (for 2 of them) add +1 to Inspire Courage

Each can cast Inspiration Boost before beginning their turn then activate Inspire courage. End turn. then activate Badge of Value as an Immediate action (thus using your swift/immediate for next round)

Each archer/foot soldier would get the following as long as they hear the bards perform. Have them play bagpipes and they will be heard for miles.

+4 to Hit and Damage (+1 level, +1 Feat, +1 Spell, +1 item)
+4d6 Fire
+3d6 Cold
+3d6 Electricity
+3d6 Acid
+3d6 Sonic
+3d6 Force

For a grand total of +4 to hit and +4, +19d6 [Energy] damage.

Even if you don't equip them with the item, your grand total would be +3 hit; +3, +13d6 [Energy]

With an average of 75 pts of damage (64 without items) per hit, archers would decimate armies.

You would need a couple of casters to dispel the inevitable wind wall of course :smallamused:

[Darkweave31]

May I highly recommend taking a look through Heroes of Battle? The book has a section that details army units of various races as well as nice ideas on handling military campaigns.

[Fouredged Sword]

I like the idea of 200 militia members. They are level 2 feat rogues, so good reflex saves, leather armor + light shields, short spears, two fighter feats (shield proficiency taken as their first level feat) and evasion, and crossbows for ranged combat. They are not very tough, and not that deadly, but they are versatile and very good at holding an entrenchment with tier crossbows and evasion. Good reflex saves and evasion means the group holds up under area spell fire much better than most units. Give them a spattering of craft skills (craft structural for entrenchments) and survival (for fewer supplies needed).

These are guys who form a solid backbone to any push, coming in behind the shock troops to make sure there is a place for them to retreat to.

[Kol Korran]

Pelor's Platoon of Pansy Paladins

Kord's Knights of Kindness

St. Cuthbert's Secret Silly Squad of Shadows

Bahamuts Dragon Shaman Medics
The PF mass combat rules don't go into specific feats and the like. Also, we're playing PF, not 3.P, so some ideas (Shadow casters) are a bit out. I do like the ideas of orders related to religious sects, which might be nice. I don't think however that calling any unit the KKK will come out as expected..


The wizards college

The Apprentices
100 apprentice wizards (lvl 2) armed with wands of Magic Missile. Low morale.

The Faculty
20 lvl 5 Wizards casting Fireball.

The Watch
200 lvl 3 Fighters, with breastplates and polearms. These are the remnants of the city watch. They have average morale, but are all proficient in hand to hand combat, and are excellent grapplers and trippers (Improved Grapple, Improved Trip).

The Clockworks Guild Journeymen

The Alchemists Guild Journeymen

5th level wizards may be a bit of a problem in the current situation (All NPCs of 5th level except for a few got killed. I'm limiting up to 4th level. Plus, they will be REALLY expensive). A small groups of mages? Hmmmm.. I need to think about it. I'm making most casters rarer than more conventional units.

I like the idea of professional guilds. We're not using gunslingers (Didnt need another rules' system, and no player was interested). but perhaps alchemists?




Sir Charles Bartlet (wealthy halfling vintner) raised Bartlets Rangers from the from the communitites that service his grape fields. He has been maintaining them as a local malitia to patrol his lands and to safeguard his people. They are well disciplined and they rely upon their trained wardogs to provide security and tracking. Each of Bartlets Rangers is a skilled mounted combatant that excels with javelin, sling, lance, and sword. They were first raised almost 60 years ago and have faired well as both local constibles an as quick skirmishers for more heavily armored troops. Though clad only in studded leather, they use range and speed as their shield.

The Scarlet Sisterhood should work as a 50 person unit of warlocks. The other 50 would be considered as a "Property" that grants Cover at will. If this will work for your game I'll see if I can work out a good back story.
I like the Bartlets. I think they are in! As to the Sisterhood... I don't think that will fly with the PCs. and we're not using warlocks. The closest is sorcerers.


A band of Aasimar mercenaries/vigilantes: The Shields of Heironeus (or an equivalent deity).

Their banner is a magic item, which, once per day, can greater teleport all members of the group* within 60 feet. It also has a magic circle against evil and a dimensional anchor effect out to a 60 foot radius, to enable more effective fiend-fighting.
I think the banner is too excessive. The idea is to limit the party to up to 4th level resources or such. Most of these are far beyond the hiring of a mere defense force for the city. But a cool idea! :smallwink:


Also, if you're fighting demons, you might want to cut a deal with the devils... :smallamused: These are goody two shoes guys. They won't deal with no devils.


to be honest, I didn't read all the other posts...but any fantasy army should have a few bards (7 to be precise)

I'm not trying to build the most effective unit to fight demons, and the PF rules dont go into feats (Plus most of these are 3.5 feats, I'm not sure they'l work the same). I did consider including bards, but posted it in one of the posts above, as general moral support units and such.


May I highly recommend taking a look through Heroes of Battle? The book has a section that details army units of various races as well as nice ideas on handling military campaigns.
I know the book, but I'm looking mostly for flavor aspects of the units, less for the composition itself. PF does mass combat quite differently than HoB, which we'll be trying to work in.


I like the idea of 200 militia members. They are level 2 feat rogues, so good reflex saves, leather armor + light shields, short spears, two fighter feats (shield proficiency taken as their first level feat) and evasion, and crossbows for ranged combat. They are not very tough, and not that deadly, but they are versatile and very good at holding an entrenchment with tier crossbows and evasion. Good reflex saves and evasion means the group holds up under area spell fire much better than most units. Give them a spattering of craft skills (craft structural for entrenchments) and survival (for fewer supplies needed).

These are guys who form a solid backbone to any push, coming in behind the shock troops to make sure there is a place for them to retreat to.Hmmm, I'm not sure rogues will go for this, Fighters might do the same, even better, no? I get the idea of a good reflex and evasion, and I may consider them. Need to think about it.
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Thanks for the replies! :smallamused:

[AnonymousPepper]

Class suggestion: I don't know if it's been suggested, but take the Tactical Soldier PrC from Miniatures Handbook (http://dndtools.eu/classes/tactical-soldier/) and disregard the BAB requirement (because frankly, as a PrC, it blows, but as a base class, it's actually rather balanced), turning it into a base class. It's fully possible to have a squad of level 4 Tactical Soldiers all have a perfectly mundane AC of 28. Base (10AC) plus Full Plate (8AC) plus Tower Shield (4AC) is 22 flat-footed. Combat Expertise will give another +4AC at the cost of BAB, bringing it up to 26. Having two or more Tactical Soldiers using a defensive fighting action (this includes Combat Expertise) side by side will grant a further +2AC, bringing the total up to 28.

There is simply no better setup for forming a phalanx. Plus, flavorwise, it is literally a foot soldier of the type you'd form an army of. They are built for fighting as a unit. They're perfect for it.

Naturally, somebody with touch spells would chew through them, but mundane attacks? They form a steel wall.

Another thing to point out is that these guys work very well with a Marshal backing them up.

But anyway, I'm not suggesting a specific unit for your army here, just pointing out an excellent class option you have if you bend the rules ever so slightly.