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lunar2
2014-04-21, 10:58 PM
"A dragon’s magical nature allows it to breed with virtually any creature. Conception usually occurs while the dragon has changed its shape; it then abandons the crossbreed offspring. Half-dragon creatures are always more formidable than others of their kind that do not have dragon blood, and their appearance betrays their nature—scales, elongated features, reptilian eyes, exaggerated teeth and claws, and even wings."

CREATING A HALF-DRAGON
“Half-dragon” is an inherited template that can be added to any living, corporeal creature with a discernible anatomy (referred to hereafter as the base creature).
A half-dragon uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.

Size and Type: The creature’s type changes to dragon. Size is unchanged. Recalculate base attack and saves for RHD as necessary.

Hit Dice: Increase base creature’s racial HD to d12. Do not increase class HD.

Speed: A half-dragon has wings and can fly at twice its base land speed with average maneuverability. if the base creature has a fly speed, use the higher speed and higher maneuverability.

Armor Class: Natural armor improves by +6.

Attack: A half-dragon has two claw attacks and a bite attack, and the claws are the primary natural weapon. If the base creature can use weapons, the half-dragon retains this ability. A half-dragon fighting without weapons uses a claw as a primary weapon when making an attack action. When it has a weapon, it usually uses the weapon
instead.

Full Attack: A half-dragon fighting without weapons uses both claws and its bite when making a full attack. If armed with a weapon, it usually uses the weapon as its primary attack and its bite as a natural secondary attack. If it has a hand free, it uses a claw as an additional natural secondary attack.

Damage: Half-dragons have bite and claw attacks. Claws deal 1d6 plus strength modifier damage, while a bite deals 1d8 plus one half strength modifier damage. The values listed are for a medium creature.

Special Attacks: A half-dragon retains all the special attacks of the base creature and gains a breath weapon based on the dragon variety, usable once per day, plus one additional time per day per point of constitution bonus. a half dragon must wait 1d4 rounds after using its breath weapon before it can use it again. A half-dragon’s
breath weapon deals 2d8 points of damage, plus 1d8 points of damage per 2 HD. A successful Reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 half-dragon’s HD + half-dragon’s Con modifier) reduces damage by half.

Spells: A half dragon gains the ability to cast spells as a first level sorcerer. It casts spells from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, plus the elemental domain associated with its dragon parent's subtype. If the dragon parent has no elemental subtype, the half dragon casts from the dragon domain, instead. The spells from these domains are added to the half dragon's spell list, and it can select its spells known from them, but it does not automatically know the domain spells. If a half dragon gains levels of sorcerer, its sorcerer levels stack with its native casting, including access to the expanded spell list.

Special Qualities: A half-dragon has all the special qualities of the base creature, plus darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision. A half-dragon has immunity to sleep and paralysis effects, and an additional immunity based on its dragon variety.

Abilities: Increase from the base creature as follows: Str +8, Con +6, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +4.

Skills: A half-dragon gains skill points as a dragon and has skill points equal to (6 + Int modifier) × (HD + 3). Do not include Hit Dice from class levels in this calculation—the half-dragon gains dragon skill points only for its racial Hit Dice, and gains the normal amount of skill points for its class levels. Treat skills from the base creature’s list and the true dragon list (including those specific to its dragon parent) as class skills, and other skills as cross-class.

Environment: Same as either the base creature or the dragon variety.

Challenge Rating: Same as the base creature + 2 (minimum 3).

Alignment: Often same as the dragon variety.

Level Adjustment: Same as base creature +3.

so, what do you think? is this version of the half dragon actually worth a +3 LA?

also, on a slight side note. i've been thinking about a system where LA were replaced by RHD that could not be exchanged for class levels under any circumstances, including energy drain (if you lose them, you have to take them back at the first opportunity). do you think this half dragon would be worth 3 RHD or 4?

Loek
2014-04-22, 01:56 AM
Firstly, please use some formating. Bold, spacing, etc. It really helps prevent the whole "block of text" feeling. (and prevent the broken lines in certain lines you've copied from the original template)


The damage for the bite on it own feels a bit weird. Firstly, why would it just bite? And secondly where is the whole extra strength (from half to 1,5) coming from?

I like the new version of the breath weapon. Though I think I'd make it have a minimum damage equal to to original half dragon template (if only for creatures to be used by a DM).

Spells: How does this interact with levels of sorcerer? Can you have more effective levels of sorcerer than you have levels? Please add more details on how to handle it.

Beyond that, why the alignment domains? Especially as you don't have to have anything to do with their alignment. Also, describe how these domains work (I vaguely remember how it works, but if you introduce something like this in a template, either describe it or link to where it is explained).

Abilities: Ramping up the ability bonuses is an easy way to make things stronger... but is it really a good idea? Especially as with these bonuses even a 10 10 10 10 10 10 character will have abilities beyond the first several age categories of most dragons. Back down a bit on this one unless you have a proper reasoning behind it. [The increase in NA is also another "lets make it more powerful" increase, making it a bit iffy]


As for it being worth it, no idea really, I'm just here to poke and point at parts of it. (I suck at LA determination.)

lunar2
2014-04-22, 09:04 AM
bite is a true dragon's primary natural weapon, but for some reason claws are a half dragon's primary natural weapon. i just added in the bite thing as a throwback to the dragon parent. if the half dragon actually focuses and goes for the bite, he does much more damage than if he is just randomly tearing into things.

a half dragon's breath weapon is always going to be a secondary method of attack. it just isn't powerful enough to focus on. low level half dragons probably just have entangling breath or something to give it more kick. i did add in the cooldown specifically so it could qualify for metabreath feats.

spells are fixed. as for the domains. i wanted to pay homage to the fact that many dragon varieties cast off the cleric list as well as the sorcerer list, but i needed a way to make it even between the various colors. you're paying an LA +3 no matter what your dragon parent is, so you should get the same abilities. so i just made it so you get 3 (or rarely 2, for the more obscure dragons) domains to pick from.

ability scores: well, remember that this template is generally going to be applied to adult creatures. comparing it to adult dragons, the only one really falling short is the white dragon, and even then just on the mental side of things. most dragon types stack up just fine. as for the whites, we can just call it hybrid vigor and be done with it.

as for natural armor. you're going to be short some hitpoints for a few levels, until your big con can catch up. those also happen to be the levels where AC is still a valuable defense. so i increased the natural armor to make being a half dragon more survivable the first few levels until you can pick up some better defenses. at later levels, the high natural armor doesn't matter so much, because you are dealing with more touch attacks and monsters with way too many HD for their CR.

lunar2
2014-04-23, 10:53 PM
so, i'm concerned this still may not be worth an LA +3. here are some options i was thinking of to bring it up to par, if needed.

1. giving it another level of sorcerer casting, as mentioned above. my worry with this is that with 2 sorcerer levels attached, it's only down 1 caster level, and the bonuses may make this a worthwhile choice for a sorcerer. that's not the power level i'm aiming for at all.

2. give it blind fight and alertness as bonus feats, to pay tribute to a true dragon's blindsense.

3. give it wing attacks with 1D4+ 1/2 str damage, possibly at a delayed level, such as 6 hd. if it got them at a later level, it wouldn't completely overwhelm other melee characters out of the gate, but would gain a power boost later on, when other characters start to catch up with number of attacks.

4. most dragons have a pretty fast land speed. maybe give it a +10 increase to base speed.

5. maybe a +2 or +4 racial bonus to intimidate checks, since dragons get frightful presence?

Loek
2014-04-24, 05:30 AM
bite is a true dragon's primary natural weapon, but for some reason claws are a half dragon's primary natural weapon. i just added in the bite thing as a throwback to the dragon parent. if the half dragon actually focuses and goes for the bite, he does much more damage than if he is just randomly tearing into things.
The main reason for a dragon having the bite as a main attack and a half-dragon having it's claws (in my opinion) is the fact that most types of dragons are quadrupeds that attack by biting more than claws as they tend to use the claws to move/stand/stabilize themselves. Half-dragons are often humanoid (aka: bipedal) and will be more at ease (and have great reach) with claw attacks.

But mostly rule-technical, it looks weird to have bite as secondary, unless they are not... but ah well, nothing to serious in this one, do what you will.


a half dragon's breath weapon is always going to be a secondary method of attack. it just isn't powerful enough to focus on. low level half dragons probably just have entangling breath or something to give it more kick. i did add in the cooldown specifically so it could qualify for metabreath feats.
You have to remember that due to the LA (and increased CR) there aren't that many true "low level" half dragons. The cool down is fine (in fact, it's standard if not essential if you can use your breath more then once a day), but what I ment is that a minimum damage for the breath weapon is probably a good idea.

As for "low level half dragons probably just have entangling breath or something", that is very meta way of looking at it. While it helps with low-level half dragon encounters, it's more about ignoring the problem than fixing it.


spells are fixed. as for the domains. i wanted to pay homage to the fact that many dragon varieties cast off the cleric list as well as the sorcerer list, but i needed a way to make it even between the various colors. you're paying an LA +3 no matter what your dragon parent is, so you should get the same abilities. so i just made it so you get 3 (or rarely 2, for the more obscure dragons) domains to pick from.
Adding either the elemental or the dragon domain should be enough. (It's already a nice bit of bonus, not too strong (usually).) The alignment domains don't make any sense unless a half dragon must share alignment with it's dragon ancestor. (Or at the very least, don't let it gain a domain if it doesn't have that alignment component - think chaotic evil golden half dragon.)


ability scores: well, remember that this template is generally going to be applied to adult creatures. comparing it to adult dragons, the only one really falling short is the white dragon, and even then just on the mental side of things. most dragon types stack up just fine. as for the whites, we can just call it hybrid vigor and be done with it.
Adult creature =/= Adult dragon... not even close. Plus, having a half dragon having the same types of stats as a (young) adult full blood dragon... weird and unlikely. (Think half giant having the same stats as the giant it is descendant from, would never happen).

As for "hybrid vigor", huh? what? me no get.


as for natural armor. you're going to be short some hitpoints for a few levels, until your big con can catch up. those also happen to be the levels where AC is still a valuable defense. so i increased the natural armor to make being a half dragon more survivable the first few levels until you can pick up some better defenses. at later levels, the high natural armor doesn't matter so much, because you are dealing with more touch attacks and monsters with way too many HD for their CR.
Maybe, but the original +4 already was intended for this. What I tried to point out is that you seem to be just increasing the number values to make it better, without proper reasoning or explanation.


so, i'm concerned this still may not be worth an LA +3. here are some options i was thinking of to bring it up to par, if needed.
I think you need to worry about being too strong for it, rather than too weak.


1. giving it another level of sorcerer casting, as mentioned above. my worry with this is that with 2 sorcerer levels attached, it's only down 1 caster level, and the bonuses may make this a worthwhile choice for a sorcerer. that's not the power level i'm aiming for at all.
While this is nice and charming, it means way too little sacrifice for a sorcerer to get this template. (I like the idea of 1-2 sorcerer levels for non caster creatures that get this template though). Remember that casters are already way powerful and don't need extra boosts. (And losing the odd caster level (for example to LA) might be good for overall balance, not something that needs to be overcompensated for).


2. give it blind fight and alertness as bonus feats, to pay tribute to a true dragon's blindsense.
Nice, fully, and way less overpowering than most of your ideas, I like it. (But again, I doubt your version of the half dragon needs it... maybe the original could have used it).


3. give it wing attacks with 1D4+ 1/2 str damage, possibly at a delayed level, such as 6 hd. if it got them at a later level, it wouldn't completely overwhelm other melee characters out of the gate, but would gain a power boost later on, when other characters start to catch up with number of attacks.
Away from book right now, but I think dragons had some sort of limit on wing slam themselves (size, age or whatnot) look at it and make sure your measly half dragon doesn't again out perform it's full blooded friends.


4. most dragons have a pretty fast land speed. maybe give it a +10 increase to base speed.
From a quick look through off the SRD, they seem to be between 40-60ft land speed. So again you are going to be matching some of the full dragons. Plus really, another bonus to something that isn't really related to the dragon kind (more to the quadruped/massive monster side of being a dragon).


5. maybe a +2 or +4 racial bonus to intimidate checks, since dragons get frightful presence?
Like 2., interesting, fluffy, not needed to be honest.



My take
You need to consider that LA sucks for casters (and stop trying to overcompensate the LA for them - they are strong enough already).

There are other things out there besides casters (and still the ability boosts and lots of other things would possibly be too powerful).

Half dragons are some other race with a few dragony bits thrown in, they don't need to match/out perform their full blood kin. (Again, look at the ability increases, add them to a decently rolled char and compare with full dragons...)

lunar2
2014-04-24, 10:11 AM
The main reason for a dragon having the bite as a main attack and a half-dragon having it's claws (in my opinion) is the fact that most types of dragons are quadrupeds that attack by biting more than claws as they tend to use the claws to move/stand/stabilize themselves. Half-dragons are often humanoid (aka: bipedal) and will be more at ease (and have great reach) with claw attacks.

But mostly rule-technical, it looks weird to have bite as secondary, unless they are not... but ah well, nothing to serious in this one, do what you will. yeah, i thought of that. i'll drop that part.



You have to remember that due to the LA (and increased CR) there aren't that many true "low level" half dragons. The cool down is fine (in fact, it's standard if not essential if you can use your breath more then once a day), but what I ment is that a minimum damage for the breath weapon is probably a good idea.

As for "low level half dragons probably just have entangling breath or something", that is very meta way of looking at it. While it helps with low-level half dragon encounters, it's more about ignoring the problem than fixing it.

eh, maybe add in 2d8 base damage for the breath weapon. that's about as high as i want to go, though.


Adding either the elemental or the dragon domain should be enough. (It's already a nice bit of bonus, not too strong (usually).) The alignment domains don't make any sense unless a half dragon must share alignment with it's dragon ancestor. (Or at the very least, don't let it gain a domain if it doesn't have that alignment component - think chaotic evil golden half dragon.)

arcane casters have never been alignment restricted on what spells they can cast. but if it's really that big of a deal, i'll drop it.


Adult creature =/= Adult dragon... not even close. Plus, having a half dragon having the same types of stats as a (young) adult full blood dragon... weird and unlikely. (Think half giant having the same stats as the giant it is descendant from, would never happen).

As for "hybrid vigor", huh? what? me no get.

well, yes. you don't compare a venerable orc to an adult elf to say that orcs are smarter than elves. you compare creatures at the same stage of life. a wyrmling up to a juvenile dragon is a child. of course they don't have the same raw (not RAW) capabilities as their adult hybrid brother. if you are going to pick a comparison point for ability scores between dragon and half dragon, you should be comparing adult to adult, not adult to kid.

hybrid vigor is the phenomenon that hybrids seem to be more than the sum of their parts. ligers being bigger than lions or tigers, mules being stronger than horses or donkeys, mutts being generally healthier and smarter than any purebred dog. mixing the blood sometimes gets you more than you would expect.


Maybe, but the original +4 already was intended for this. What I tried to point out is that you seem to be just increasing the number values to make it better, without proper reasoning or explanation.

well, yeah. half dragon is too weak for its LA and CR increase, so i gave it across the board increases to bring it up to snuff. many of the good LA +1 races and templates give +5 NA.




While this is nice and charming, it means way too little sacrifice for a sorcerer to get this template. (I like the idea of 1-2 sorcerer levels for non caster creatures that get this template though). Remember that casters are already way powerful and don't need extra boosts. (And losing the odd caster level (for example to LA) might be good for overall balance, not something that needs to be overcompensated for). like i pointed out, this wasn't meant to keep the sorcerer on par. i'll stick with 1 caster level.



Nice, fully, and way less overpowering than most of your ideas, I like it. (But again, I doubt your version of the half dragon needs it... maybe the original could have used it).
ok, thanks.


Away from book right now, but I think dragons had some sort of limit on wing slam themselves (size, age or whatnot) look at it and make sure your measly half dragon doesn't again out perform it's full blooded friends.
medium or bigger got them. anyway, it was just an idea.


From a quick look through off the SRD, they seem to be between 40-60ft land speed. So again you are going to be matching some of the full dragons. Plus really, another bonus to something that isn't really related to the dragon kind (more to the quadruped/massive monster side of being a dragon).
good point on the quadruped thing. although i'm not worried about overtaking the very weakest of dragons in any particular area (seriously, nobody complains a half fiend is stronger than an imp), their land speed is a function of being a quadruped, so i'll leave it out.



My take
You need to consider that LA sucks for casters (and stop trying to overcompensate the LA for them - they are strong enough already).

There are other things out there besides casters (and still the ability boosts and lots of other things would possibly be too powerful).

Half dragons are some other race with a few dragony bits thrown in, they don't need to match/out perform their full blood kin. (Again, look at the ability increases, add them to a decently rolled char and compare with full dragons...)

i wasn't actually aiming at casters. half dragon, even now, is best suited for gishes or mundanes.

but here is a point i disagree with you on. half dragons do not have "a few dragony bits". they are fully 1/2 dragon. they have the same muscle and bone composition, just less of it. they have the same brain structure, just less of it.

and why are you comparing a character with rolled stats to a baseline dragon? if one gets rolled stats for the comparision, they should both get rolled stats.

lunar2
2014-04-24, 12:14 PM
ok, made the changes i said i would. the wonky bite is gone, as are the alignment domains.

now, i want to make a comparison between the half dragon's racial ability modifiers and full dragons' racial ability modifiers. i will be using adult dragons, because that is the stage of life the default half dragon is going to be, not a child or an old man.

half dragon: +8 str, +6 con, +4 int, +4 wis, +4 cha
black: +12 str, +8 con, +2 int, +2 wis, +2 cha
blue: +16 str, +10 con, +6 int, wis, cha
green: +16, +10, +6, +6, +6
red: +22, +10, +6, +8, +6
white: 12, 8, 0, 0, 2

ok, i'm not going to mess with the metallic dragons.

i think this demonstrates that the physical ability scores, at least, are fine. i guess i'll drop the int and wis bonuses down to 2. i'm leaving the charisma alone, though, since i feel that every half dragon should have at least a 12 charisma, so they can use their casting.

Loek
2014-04-24, 04:39 PM
I'm going to give it one last shot to get my point across. After that it will be just "I say X!" vs "I say Y!" (aka: not productive).



well, yes. you don't compare a venerable orc to an adult elf to say that orcs are smarter than elves. you compare creatures at the same stage of life. a wyrmling up to a juvenile dragon is a child. of course they don't have the same raw (not RAW) capabilities as their adult hybrid brother.
While your orc/elf comparison is true, it isn't quite relevant (otherwise your venerable orc should be on par with a "very old" or even "ancient" dragon). The fact is that dragons age quite differently than most races. Consider the following:

An adult human has:


1 racial HD (to be replaced by its first class level).
A CR of 1.
It rolls its stats (or takes one of the made spreads, like the elite array).
Has no Level adjustment (becomes +3 when you add the half dragon template).

An adult dragon has:


Between 19 and 24 racial HD (white to red dragon, the extremes of the chromatics, metallics should be roughly similar in stats).
A CR between 10 and 15.
Its stats are predetermined. (Like the Dwarven warrior (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Dwarf) from the SRD, it incorperates an array with its racial increases).
Has a level adjustment of - (but between 2 and 3 age categories before it became adult it had a LA of +5/+6)


So not only do they treat age differently, they are also vastly different in (power) level. (Note: Yes, I am aware there are other aspects that account for the LA/CR/HD, but it is still relevant).

Comparing CR/LA, you'd end up comparing to a "young white dragon" or a "wyrmling red dragon". (Which gives significantly more reasonable results.)

Beyond this, I think we have vastly different ideas of what a half-dragon represents (see below).



hybrid vigor is the phenomenon that hybrids seem to be more than the sum of their parts. ligers being bigger than lions or tigers, mules being stronger than horses or donkeys, mutts being generally healthier and smarter than any purebred dog. mixing the blood sometimes gets you more than you would expect.
While interesting as a whole, it is not very relevant as there are very few "half x" beings in Dnd that are stronger than both its parents (ignoring the odd "perfect couple" where all weaknesses from X are paired with strengths from Y).

That said, there's also the tigron to your liger (smaller than both its parents. I believe it has something to do with the growth stop gene being in the different genders amongst tigers and lions... anyhow...)



...although i'm not worried about overtaking the very weakest of dragons in any particular area (seriously, nobody complains a half fiend is stronger than an imp), their land speed is a function of being a quadruped, so i'll leave it out.
Underlined the important bit. A red great wyrm has a land speed of 40, so while not overtaken, it is equaled. And I doubt anyone would think to call them the very weakest of anything (short of a list of deities).

As for the imp half fiend comparision... see above for HD/LA/CR argument for your template and then consider the same for the imp/half-fiend (a 3 HD/CR 2 creature vs a +4 LA template). But more to the point of this whole thread, taking some of your arguments (combined with the aforementioned balance of CR/HD/LA), would you argue that the half-fiend template should match up with an ice devil (up to a pitfiend)?



but here is a point i disagree with you on. half dragons do not have "a few dragony bits". they are fully 1/2 dragon. they have the same muscle and bone composition, just less of it. they have the same brain structure, just less of it.
You seem to regard a half dragon as "half of a dragon" (weaker dragon, which you don't really represent in trying to match the half dragon to an adult dragon... anyhow...), but in reality half dragon is a template you add to a (usually in the case of PCs) humanoid race. It is a member of that humanoid race with some (distinct/clearly present) dragon aspects.

While many of its features are (to some degree) draconic, it is not a "mini" dragon. Its a (example) human with a number of dragon traits.



and why are you comparing a character with rolled stats to a baseline dragon? if one gets rolled stats for the comparision, they should both get rolled stats.
As I mentioned earlier, the dragon is not a baseline. The stats given are of a normal member of its kind (so normal array, or since they are a race made of "AWESOME" more likely the elite array). The point is that a level 1 (ECL 4, due to the templates LA) human half dragon could physically out muscle an ECL 25+ dragon is ridiculous.



Anyhow, I hope that this properly conveys my point on "why not to compare to adult dragons". For all other comments on your template, see my earlier posts.

lunar2
2014-04-24, 07:15 PM
An adult human has:[/U]


1 racial HD (to be replaced by its first class level).
A CR of 1.
It rolls its stats (or takes one of the made spreads, like the elite array).
Has no Level adjustment (becomes +3 when you add the half dragon template).

An adult dragon has:


Between 19 and 24 racial HD (white to red dragon, the extremes of the chromatics, metallics should be roughly similar in stats).
A CR between 10 and 15.
Its stats are predetermined. (Like the Dwarven warrior (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Dwarf) from the SRD, it incorperates an array with its racial increases).
Has a level adjustment of - (but between 2 and 3 age categories before it became adult it had a LA of +5/+6)


So not only do they treat age differently, they are also vastly different in (power) level. (Note: Yes, I am aware there are other aspects that account for the LA/CR/HD, but it is still relevant).

Comparing CR/LA, you'd end up comparing to a "young white dragon" or a "wyrmling red dragon". (Which gives significantly more reasonable results.) but you don't compare based on CR. you compare based on stage of life. a half dragon's ability scores shouldn't even be compared to baby dragons, because he's not a baby. he's an adult, so you compare him to the adults. because an adult dragon is equivalent in stage of life to an adult human, or an adult elf, or an adult anything else. you always compare adults to adults when trying to figure out what racial modifiers to ability scores you assign, because being an adult is the default assumption for an adventurer. yes, if you were playing a child adventurer, you would then need to figure out what ability score modifiers he would need, and you would base that off the appropriate stage of life for a dragon. for example, a twelve year old half dragon human would need to be compared to a juvenile dragon, while a 4 year old would need to be compared to a very young dragon. but until you reach adult, you always compare equivalent stages of life.


Beyond this, I think we have vastly different ideas of what a half-dragon represents (see below).
a half dragon represents a crossbreed between one true dragon and one other species. it contains exactly half the DNA (or local setting's equivalent) from the dragon and the other species. it is handled awkwardly mechanically, because instead of creating a new race for each cross breed, which would be the appropriate way to do it, you instead add a generic template to whatever the base race is. that doesn't change the fact that the half dragon is fully half dragon, not mostly human with a few dragon bits added on. if you were to dissect a half dragon human, it's not just a human with scales. the bones would, at least partially, be made of the same stuff dragon bone is. the muscles would resemble dragon muscle in structure as much as human structure. the brain would actually be arranged differently from a human's, and would most likely be somewhat bigger, as well. every single aspect of that half dragon human would resemble a dragon as much as it did a human, at least on the inside.



While interesting as a whole, it is not very relevant as there are very few "half x" beings in Dnd that are stronger than both its parents (ignoring the odd "perfect couple" where all weaknesses from X are paired with strengths from Y).

That said, there's also the tigron to your liger (smaller than both its parents. I believe it has something to do with the growth stop gene being in the different genders amongst tigers and lions... anyhow...) tiglons are actually not smaller than lions. that's a common misconception. they're about the same size, actually. and yes, it is because they inherit their mother's growth inhibiting genes. anyway, the hybrid vigor was just to explain how the very stupid white dragon manages to produce offspring more intelligent than itself. which, btw is a problem you would also have with the official half dragon template. the only solution would be to produce a separate template for each subspecies of true dragon, which is too much work for too little reward.




Underlined the important bit. A red great wyrm has a land speed of 40, so while not overtaken, it is equaled. And I doubt anyone would think to call them the very weakest of anything (short of a list of deities).

in terms of land speed, a red is one of the weakest true dragons. although iirc, there is actually a true dragon with only a 30 ft. land speed. anyway, i didn't add that.


As for the imp half fiend comparision... see above for HD/LA/CR argument for your template and then consider the same for the imp/half-fiend (a 3 HD/CR 2 creature vs a +4 LA template). But more to the point of this whole thread, taking some of your arguments (combined with the aforementioned balance of CR/HD/LA), would you argue that the half-fiend template should match up with an ice devil (up to a pitfiend)? of course not. because you don't compare by CR. CR and LA aren't actually creature stats. they are game terms used to measure how powerful a creature is in various situations. and just like half fiends, a half dragon doesn't inherit nearly half the power of its supernatural parent (when you compare the more common half fiend parents, which tend to be higher up the food chain). it doesn't inherit a dozen or more RHD. it doesn't inherit mid level spell casting (the only half dragon that actually matches its parent in terms of casting power is the white, which again, is an outlier). it doesn't inherit SR, DR, blindsense, keen senses, overland travel, most of the breath weapon ability, spell like abilities, frightful presence, wing or tail attacks, most of the natural armor, the second energy immunity of some dragons, secondary movement modes, special abilities such as icewalking or waterbreathing, it's not nearly as fast in the air (although sometimes more maneuverable), and anything else i may be forgetting. when you compare your bog standard half dragon human to your bog standard adult dragon, the half dragon is a flea compared to its dragon parent. only elite half dragons even compare to their dragon parents on the ability score front (and even then only for the weaker dragon varieties). yes, if you compare the rare half dragon that was born with extraordinary ability and has actual adventuring experience to its mother, then its mother may fall short, because she's just an average dragon and doesn't actually do anything to better herself.




You seem to regard a half dragon as "half of a dragon" (weaker dragon, which you don't really represent in trying to match the half dragon to an adult dragon... anyhow...), but in reality half dragon is a template you add to a (usually in the case of PCs) humanoid race. It is a member of that humanoid race with some (distinct/clearly present) dragon aspects.

While many of its features are (to some degree) draconic, it is not a "mini" dragon. Its a (example) human with a number of dragon traits.

1st, I'm not matching the half dragon to its adult parent. you and i have already pointed out all the things the true dragon gets that the half dragon doesn't get. yes, the half dragon gets close to some varieties of true dragon in terms of racial ability score modifiers. but that's the only thing he even gets close in, and even then, the white dragon, the weakest of all dragons, gets the same total ability score modifiers. should the white half dragon maybe be weaker? yeah, sure. but if that's the case, the red half dragon should be much, much stronger.

as for the rest of this part. i misspoke in my earlier post. what i meant was that the half dragon is just as much dragon as it is human. while it is mechanically represented by a human with some extra traits, in "reality" it is a true hybrid, gaining an equal number of traits from both parents. if you cut one open, you would literally be able to see just as much dragon as you could human.


As I mentioned earlier, the dragon is not a baseline. The stats given are of a normal member of its kind (so normal array, or since they are a race made of "AWESOME" more likely the elite array). The point is that a level 1 (ECL 4, due to the templates LA) human half dragon could physically out muscle an ECL 25+ dragon is ridiculous. except it can't. and no, dragons get the same 10s and 11s as every other race. every single point of its ability scores is racial ability modifiers.

average adult white dragon: str 23, large size, and quadruped.

average adult human half dragon: str 18-19, medium size, biped.

so it takes an orc half dragon to match the white's raw strength, and it would still lose in either a grapple or a weightlifting competition.

but let's look at something approaching "normal" for dragons as a whole. namely, the blue.

average adult blue dragon: str 27, huge size, still a quadruped.

an elite array orc half dragon: str 27 (15 +8 +4), still medium, still a biped. it takes a race with exceptionally high starting strength, and a top tier member of that race at that, just to match a normal mid tier dragon in raw strength. and it still loses in anything resembling a real world test of strength, because the dragon is so much bigger than it is.

so no, unless you heavily weight the contest in the half dragon's favor, it is not out muscling any real dragons. also, ECL has very little to do with strength. only 5 points of that blue dragon's strength are a result of its ECL, and that's assuming all 5 increases went to strength. the rest of it simply for being an average adult member of its race.