Elementals- What exactly can be used to summon one in the OOTS 'verse?

[Lordfiscus]

While this may be a stupid question to some- no, probably most of the readers of this post- what exactly constitutes a material that's acceptable for use in summoning an elemental?

Is it restricted to elements on the Periodic Table, like with Redcloak's chlorine elemental, or does it cover abstract concepts, like money, wealth, death, or life?

What about instances where the caster doesn't specify exactly what element is being used, or they use whatever is available by pointing at the material they want?

For example, let's say the person summoning an elemental points at a house, and intends to use the materials used to create said house as the material for the elemental. Would it work, or would the caster need to specify what the house was made of?

What if the caster doesn't specify exactly what elements constitute the elemental, and uses a given material anyway, such as blood, a bunch of corpses, bone, and possibly armor/swords?

Would it be possible to make one out of a theory created by someone, such as the Id/Ego/Superego theorized by Sigmund Freud?

If you thought about a phallic/Freudian-like object while summoning an elemental, would the resulting construct be in the shape of a phallus?

Could the shape and personality of the elemental be decided by thinking of a fictional character while summoning it? For example, let's say someone thinks about AM from the novel/videogame adaptation I Have No Mouth, And I Must Scream. Would the resultant elemental be a genocidal A.I who occasionally shunts his victims into another plane to suffer for eternity?

What if you thought of a passage in a book, or the entire book while summoning it? If you read the Bible or a Dune novel before summoning it, would the entity quote passages from either?

Could you make one out of something such as fire, lightning, or Snarl fabric?

If you thought of a character in a webcomic, would it be summoned in the shape of the character, such as Malack from OOTS/ Vole from Girl Genius?

And most importantly, could you make an elemental out of Tropes, that embody whatever trope you cited?

[CRtwenty]

As per regular DND rules you're restricted to the four classical elements of earth air fire and water the para elements magma smoke ooze and ice and the quasi elements lightning vacuum salt steam radiance ash mineral and dust. There are other things called elementals like wood and blood but they're not considered true elementals since they reside on demi planes. I'd toss the semi elemental plane of ranch here.

As for Redcloak I assume he's limited to what's on the periodic table.

To elaborate elementals are based off of basic physical things. Outsiders based on concepts and emotions exist but they are not elementals.

[Lordfiscus]

Yes, but there some stuff that transcends regular DND stuff. Unless it qualifies as homebrew, DND certainly doesn't have a world-destroying abomination made out of purple cosmic yarn.

Incidentally, if Snarl fabric can be harvested, could it be used as a material? It IS technically trapped in a demiplane until something unseals it.

*replying to edit* So i CAN make an avatar of Death/Pride/Money, but it doesn't qualify as an elemental? K then.

Also, can the shape be decided by thinking of something? A giant chlorine AM would be pretty darn useful as a bargaining chip, assuming it doesn't beat the heck out of you when you summon it.
"Alright, pay me 50000 gold, and i won't unleash the genocidal A.I to tear you a new one."
"I AM AM, THE GREAT AND POWERFUL! I AM YOUR GOD, PUNY MORTALS, AND I HATE YOUR GUTS!"
"AM, save it until i sign this."

[CRtwenty]

Elementals grow in size as they age and gain more power so a giant chlorine elemental is certainly possible. An epic level caster could summon one fairly easily.

[Lordfiscus]

Elementals grow in size as they age and gain more power so a giant chlorine elemental is certainly possible. An epic level caster could summon one fairly easily.
But will it act like AM from the novel mentioned in the first post, if the summoner were to think about AM?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I think that if there are Elemental Planes of (elemental that you are summoning) then you can summon that elemental. So, somewhere out there is an Elemental Plane of Chlorine, an Elemental Plane of Titanium, and so on. I don't know quite enough about elementals and planes to be sure that this is true.

[CRtwenty]

But will it act like AM from the novel mentioned in the first post, if the summoner were to think about AM?

No, a summon spell only summons an Elemental, the summoner doesn't get to determine the Elemental's personality in any way though it does compel it to serve the summoner. Calling spells are required to summon something specific and usually involve some sort of bargain between the called creature and the summoner since they don't always compel service.

[Reathin]

I suspect it has to be a literal element, either of the classical nature (earth, fire, wind, water) or the periodic.

More abstract concepts CAN be found among outsiders, but they usually take different shapes. Incarnations of lust are succubi, incarnations of violence would be a wide variety of other demons, incarnations (of a sort) of mortality are the killjoy marut inevitables, etc.

So I suppose you COULD summon "elementals" of the more esoteric sort, in that they are living expressions of abstract principles, but they wouldn't be elementals as the OOTS/DnD verse would classifiy them. Instead, they would be some variety of Outsider.

[Lordfiscus]

So you COULD make one out of tropes/snarl fabric/death, but it doesn't qualify as a real elemental? Alright then. What would you get if you were to summon Death incarnate? Would you get the Grim Reaper? What about tropes, assuming you somehow acquire them?

[Keltest]

So you COULD make one out of tropes/snarl fabric/death, but it doesn't qualify as a real elemental? Alright then. What would you get if you were to summon Death incarnate? Would you get the Grim Reaper? What about tropes, assuming you somehow acquire them?

you probably get smited for trying to summon a god or goddess of death.

[rbetieh]

I wonder if Redcloak will ever summon a Sodium Elemental and a Water Elemental and tell them to dance...

[Amphiox]

I wonder if Redcloak will ever summon a Sodium Elemental and a Water Elemental and tell them to dance...

Why Sodium, though, if he has access to the entire periodic table. He should use Cesium, maybe even Francium...

[Keltest]

Why Sodium, though, if he has access to the entire periodic table. He should use Cesium, maybe even Francium...

Those elements may very well pass the "acceptable collateral damage" threshold and go into "what on earth was I thinking making that big a boom?"

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Why stop at chemical reactions? He should summon a Uranium or a Plutonium or some other radioactive Elemental.

[Keltest]

Why stop at chemical reactions? He should summon a Uranium or a Plutonium or some other radioactive Elemental.

well, depending on the isotope he gets, they could be useless, or at least die really quickly. I think hes better off with the Chlorine elemental. Lethal, difficult to damage, and impossible to block without suffocating yourself anyway.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

well, depending on the isotope he gets, they could be useless, or at least die really quickly. I think hes better off with the Chlorine elemental. Lethal, difficult to damage, and impossible to block without suffocating yourself anyway.
If he just keeps summoning them over and over again, he should get one that he wants. Something that dies really quickly would be useful, because that means it's very radioactive. If you want to stay with the chemical reaction idea, then any halogen or alkali metal should do.

[Keltest]

If he just keeps summoning them over and over again, he should get one that he wants. Something that dies really quickly would be useful, because that means it's very radioactive. If you want to stay with the chemical reaction idea, then any halogen or alkali metal should do.

Something else to consider though, anything that radioactive is liable to kill Redcloak from proximity to the elemental as he summons it. Unless you count "Radiation Poisoning" to be a disease. Plus, its not like he has limitless spells to summon the elementals. Even if he spend his every spare moment writing scrolls for the spell, hed be far better served by just picking a less unstable element.

[rbetieh]

If he just keeps summoning them over and over again, he should get one that he wants. Something that dies really quickly would be useful, because that means it's very radioactive. If you want to stay with the chemical reaction idea, then any halogen or alkali metal should do.

Geez, could you imagine the spell Elemental Swarm with this strategy...

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Something else to consider though, anything that radioactive is liable to kill Redcloak from proximity to the elemental as he summons it. Unless you count "Radiation Poisoning" to be a disease. Plus, its not like he has limitless spells to summon the elementals. Even if he spend his every spare moment writing scrolls for the spell, hed be far better served by just picking a less unstable element.

His mantle would probably protect him. As for your other point, fair enough. I just think that using a radioactive elemental in the correct fashion would be a great way to drive people away from land forever.

[Keltest]

His mantle would probably protect him. As for your other point, fair enough. I just think that using a radioactive elemental in the correct fashion would be a great way to drive people away from land forever.

It would certainly be a great tactic for a scorched earth policy, if you could find a way to survive it. So far though, Redcloak shows an intent to hold onto the land that they conquer.

[foobar1969]

Rich is effectively the DM of OOTS-verse, so he gets to decide what count as elements. So far we've seen:
* classical elements, plus para, quasi & demi
* atomic elements, requires Knowledge (chemistry)

Considering the nature of this story, I wonder if a bard might be able to summon plot elementals, or style elementals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Elements_of_Style). For example, an elemental of surprise (http://www.comicvine.com/agent/4005-59927/) would make one sneak attack (target is automatically flat footed), but then vanish.

[falsedot]

And of course you get the ultimate elemental by using harmony...

[CRtwenty]

Rich is effectively the DM of OOTS-verse, so he gets to decide what count as elements. So far we've seen:
* classical elements, plus para, quasi & demi
* atomic elements, requires Knowledge (chemistry)

Considering the nature of this story, I wonder if a bard might be able to summon plot elementals, or style elementals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Elements_of_Style). For example, an elemental of surprise (http://www.comicvine.com/agent/4005-59927/) would make one sneak attack (target is automatically flat footed), but then vanish.

Maybe. If that's the case Redcloak probably summoned an Elementary School for the little Gobbos while he was city building. :smallcool:

[KillianHawkeye]

While this may be a stupid question to some- no, probably most of the readers of this post- what exactly constitutes a material that's acceptable for use in summoning an elemental?

Is it restricted to elements on the Periodic Table, like with Redcloak's chlorine elemental, or does it cover abstract concepts, like money, wealth, death, or life?

What about instances where the caster doesn't specify exactly what element is being used, or they use whatever is available by pointing at the material they want?

For example, let's say the person summoning an elemental points at a house, and intends to use the materials used to create said house as the material for the elemental. Would it work, or would the caster need to specify what the house was made of?

What if the caster doesn't specify exactly what elements constitute the elemental, and uses a given material anyway, such as blood, a bunch of corpses, bone, and possibly armor/swords?

Would it be possible to make one out of a theory created by someone, such as the Id/Ego/Superego theorized by Sigmund Freud?

If you thought about a phallic/Freudian-like object while summoning an elemental, would the resulting construct be in the shape of a phallus?

Could the shape and personality of the elemental be decided by thinking of a fictional character while summoning it? For example, let's say someone thinks about AM from the novel/videogame adaptation I Have No Mouth, And I Must Scream. Would the resultant elemental be a genocidal A.I who occasionally shunts his victims into another plane to suffer for eternity?

What if you thought of a passage in a book, or the entire book while summoning it? If you read the Bible or a Dune novel before summoning it, would the entity quote passages from either?

Could you make one out of something such as fire, lightning, or Snarl fabric?

If you thought of a character in a webcomic, would it be summoned in the shape of the character, such as Malack from OOTS/ Vole from Girl Genius?

And most importantly, could you make an elemental out of Tropes, that embody whatever trope you cited?

You seem to be making a mistake in thinking that you create elementals out of some material which you have on hand. This is simply not the case. You don't need a pool of water to summon a water elemental. You can't point at a house or anything else and say "Make me an elemental out of whatever you are!" You summon elementals from the inner planes. You can summon whatever kind you like as long as it exists and you know about it (and provided your spell is powerful enough to get it). An elemental is an independent creature already in existence; you have no control over its personality or physical shape.

[hamishspence]

You seem to be making a mistake in thinking that you create elementals out of some material which you have on hand. This is simply not the case. You don't need a pool of water to summon a water elemental. You can't point at a house or anything else and say "Make me an elemental out of whatever you are!" You summon elementals from the inner planes.

Now, yes. In older editions, you needed a big chunk of the relevant element, as well.

[Keltest]

Now, yes. In older editions, you needed a big chunk of the relevant element, as well.

I remember one book in the Forgotten Realms series had a mage summon a pair of water elementals out of Ale. The elementals acted somewhat drunk until they met the sea.

[hamishspence]

Yup - book 2 in Elaine Cunningham's Starlight & Shadows series with a drow protagonist - Tangled Webs.

[Keltest]

Yup - book 2 in Elaine Cunningham's Starlight & Shadows series with a drow protagonist - Tangled Webs.

It was even better when you realize Sea Elves were breathing that ale.

[cybishop]

Sorry to be a killjoy, but I think you're examining plot points in too much detail when they were only intended as jokes to begin with.

We've seen silicon, titanium, chlorine, and ranch dressing elementals. None of them behaved any different than counterparts that actually could have appeared in a sourcebook. Titanium was lighter and stronger than an earth elemental, but not in any plot-relevant way. Same for silicon - indistinguishable from standard elementals except in the puns Elan used. Chlorine was presumably toxic, but otherwise fought like a water or air elemental as best we could tell. As far as we know, all elementals in the OotS-verse work exactly like things in the Monster Manual and just have funny names.

Also, if you think about it, the elementals in the OotS-verse have mostly deviated from D&D in the opposite direction from your guesses. D&D starts with classical elements and adds a few similar concepts into the mix. OotS uses actual, real-life, elements in the chemical sense (except for the ranch dressing). This would make "wealth" elementals or "Freudian imagery" elementals less likely, not more.

[SoC175]

For example, let's say the person summoning an elemental points at a house, and intends to use the materials used to create said house as the material for the elemental. Would it work, or would the caster need to specify what the house was made of?You don't make the elements from materials available. The elementals are already existing somewhere and you just summon then to your current place for some time.

[hamishspence]

You don't make the elements from materials available. The elementals are already existing somewhere and you just summon then to your current place for some time.
For some reason, the Water Elemental description in MM, has:

"A water elemental can't venture more than 180 feet from the body of water from which it was conjured".

[SoC175]

For some reason, the Water Elemental description in MM, has:

"A water elemental can't venture more than 180 feet from the body of water from which it was conjured".You might need some sample of the desired element to form the connection to the place from which you summon your elemental, but it's not build from that sample. You don't need a big enough fire to build an elder fire elemental from it, just enough to form a connection to the elemental plane of fire and grap an elder fire elemental that happens to be available.

Earth elemental are also summoned depending on the earth you use in your spell, but that doesn't mean you need 60,000 lb. as component for the summoning

[KillianHawkeye]

Maybe it's just because a water elemental is considered an aquatic creature and, like a shark, must be summoned in an appropriate environment? *shrug*

[hamishspence]

Elementals don't need to breathe though:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#elementalType

[KillianHawkeye]

Elementals don't need to breathe though:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#elementalType

What does that have to do with anything? :smallconfused:

[hamishspence]

It means even if a Water Elemental has the Aquatic type - "out of water" isn't a hostile environment for them - it's possible to summon one on land.

[KillianHawkeye]

You're the one who posted that they needed to be summoned from a body of water. I was just trying to justify it. :smallannoyed:

[CRtwenty]

I think this is a point where RAW conflicts. The actual description of Elementals in the SRD says that they are summoned from whatever material they are an Elemental of (for Water and Earth Elementals at least) however the actual spells used to summon them which is usually the Nature's Ally line has no need for something like that, allowing you to summon them out of nothing. Just one of those weird things in 3.5


Maybe it's just because a water elemental is considered an aquatic creature and, like a shark, must be summoned in an appropriate environment? *shrug*

Water Elementals don't have the [Aquatic] subtype. They have the [Water] subtype, which is different.

[Qwertystop]

It makes a bit more sense with the items that let you summon elementals by filling them with appropriate stuff - the Bowl/Brazier/Censer/Stone of Commanding Water/Fire/Air/Earth Elementals. Of course, then you get the fact that it's still a bit of a nonrestriction - the Bowl can, of course, just be carried around, and they don't last long enough for long-distance missions anyway.

[Benthesquid]

Given the line of questioning, OP might enjoy China Miéville Iron Council, in which golems work basically as you're suggesting- given form and mobility on the spot by golemcrafters out of whatever 'materials' are handy (dust, dirt, rock, gunpowder, poison gas, trains, sound, light, time). Elementals also feature, but there too, they're summoned, rather than created. They come in Moon and Flesh flavors, though.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Ok but I think possibly you are confusing "summon" with "create" (or some other verb). Elementals live on their plane. You can cast a spell that calls (summons) them from that plane to the material plane. Requirements about material types are like spell components: you may (say) need a candle to summon a fire elemental, or something, but it's not literally made out of the candle flame even if that's where it "came from". You might need (say) a handful of dirt to summon a three-ton earth elemental, and maybe it assembles itself out of the nearby mountainside, but the earth elemental is not made out of your handful of dirt.

[TuggyNE]

And of course you get the ultimate elemental by using harmony...

What you did there, I see it. Also, ow, that's like a walking major artifact with one or more epic spell effects on every slam attack.

… man, that'd be fun to summon. :smallamused:

[Socksy]

Pathfinder has Gravity and Psionic Elementals. 3.5 generally has far more sensible ones.

That said, I think what Redcloak summons has to at least be a stable element. The Elemental Plane of an unstable element would just decay into another Elemental Plane of the stable element it eventually becomes, after all.

If he COULD carry around a pinch of, say, Uranium without it decaying or harming him, he probably wouldn't anyway. He wanted Azure City to be inhabitable after the fight after all. The same goes for summoning a giant water elemental and sticking a Francium elemental inside it (he couldn't have used that technique in the desert either, as 1. He was limited to one spell and 2. Haley has Improved Evasion, probably UMD, and enough gear to sell to get a scroll of Ressurection to raise Durkon to resurrect the others once she found him.)

[Benthesquid]

Pathfinder has Gravity and Psionic Elementals. 3.5 generally has far more sensible ones.


Well, third parties have designed gravity and psionic elementals to work with the Pathfinder ruleset.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

That said, I think what Redcloak summons has to at least be a stable element. The Elemental Plane of an unstable element would just decay into another Elemental Plane of the stable element it eventually becomes, after all.
Depends on how old the plane is, or if it self-replenishes. If it's a young plane, it would still be mostly made of that radioactive element.