least favourite spell

[Raezeman]

So i've seen a lot of threads asking for suggestions for good spells to take with your character, but how about the other side of the spectrum?
Tell me, what spell would you say is an utter waste to learn or prepare, what spell completely underwhelmed you when you read the entire entry? Please also comment a bit on it (like, this spell would not be that bad if it's level was 5 lower or similar.)

Let me begin with incendiary cloud. At first glance i thought a moving fog cloud with 4d6 fire damage for those within (reflex halve) wasn't that bad, but then, wait, this spell is level 8? I have to say, if one of my wizard would have this in his spellbook, it would be because he copied the wrong spell in his book due to being drunk…

Also, this could be a good opportunity to point out secrets that show that a certain spell that first looks terrible is actually a great one. So, educate me, what's the point of incendiary cloud?

[eggynack]

Offhand, I'd say that my least favorite spell is superior magic fang. It's like, you look at it, and superior is right there on the label, but it's ultimately a worse spell than greater magic fang, based entirely on that horrendous rounds/level duration. It's just a bad chunk of spellcraft, caught in the awkward game-space of being a spell that's of a higher level than a similar one that it's significantly worse than (and in the same line too).

Another spell that I have a personal distaste for is the bear's endurance line. It's just of such a marginal benefit, and at that duration, you're presumably casting these low impact spells in the midst of combat. Sure, you can get the jump on your enemy, and that's a good use of the spells, but if you're a caster catching your enemy by surprise, can't you come up with something better than a +4 to some stat to do with your 2nd level slot? It doesn't help that the whole line gets recommended heartily on a constant basis.

As a final entry in the set of spells I really dislike, I'm going to throw storm of vengeance up there. Basically, find some hypothetical person who is new enough to the game that they don't know the spells particularly well, but with sufficient thing evaluation skills that their opinion matters. Then, show them storm of vengeance, and at the same time, show them control winds. Then ask them which is the 5th level spell, and which is the 9th.

If they're judging based on power level, rather than based on how epic the effect sounds, then I don't know how you can come to a different conclusion than that control winds is the 9th. You can also do the same with blizzard as the comparison spell. It's just a sad state of affairs, and it's not even necessarily limited to storm of vengeance. I mean, if you try to find a spell better than mass cure light wounds, or perhaps regenerate, you could probably go lower than 5th. I just dislike storm more, because, like bear's endurance, it is often bandied around as a good spell.

[ryu]

Tenser's Transformation.

A sixth level spell to get meager bonuses to a few stats with a decently pricey component, and to make matters worse you become less good at magic in general for the pitiful duration? Who thought this train-wreck was a good idea again?

[Brookshw]

Storm of vengeance, neither my players or myself can take it seriously.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Seconding Storm of Vengeance. Also Meteor Swarm.
They should be the pinnacle of destructive magic, but they're just mediocre damage spells that are easily outclassed by most lower level blasting spells with a bit of metamagic.

[Kurald Galain]

Tenser's Transformation.

A sixth level spell to get meager bonuses to a few stats with a decently pricey component, and to make matters worse you become less good at magic in general for the pitiful duration? Who thought this train-wreck was a good idea again?
The simple answer to that is that it was an awesome spell in second edition, and got heavily nerfed for third.
(for a certain value of "awesome"; after all, this was the development team that thought all wizards should be blasters)


Least favorite for me is Dispel Magic simply because it takes forever to resolve. Also, Read Magic, because I dislike the concept that a spellcaster has to cast a spell to read spellcaster textbooks. Finally, I'm not a fan of spells that as their only effect add a fiddly +1 to some rolls, such as Bless; first because they slow down gameplay (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0034.html), and second because in a short combat they tend not to make enough of a difference to warrant spending a standard action on.

[Bronk]

Hmm, incendiary cloud might be good for evil characters to start forest fires, burn an entire ship, or a large part of a town. It would be hard for good characters to keep up with putting them out since the spell just keeps on going, especially if they didn't get there right away. Maybe that's why it's such a high level, so that PCs can keep up with the damage? In that case, it's more of a plot hook than a spell.

[Defiled Cross]

All of them.

:smallbiggrin:

[some guy]

Color Spray for the amount of things needed to check. Three different outcomes based on HD and the lowest HD has three different conditions for a variable amount of time, after that two conditions for a variable amount of time and then 1 condition for 1 round. Sure there's a certain logic in all these things and you could argue that most low HD monsters won't survive those first few rounds but it can happen and the whole spell slows down combat.

[fishyfishyfishy]

I have a great dislike of fire trap. 1d4+cl fire damage with a reflex for half, costs 25gp, and you can only place one on a warded object. I house ruled it to be 1d4 damage per cl so that it's not total trash.

Another is polar ray. SR yes, close range, 1d6 cold damage per cl. Better than fire trap, but still pretty bad. I feel like most evocations need to have some kind of rider effect to be worth using precious actions. Thank goodness for metamagic like Fell Drain.

[atomicwaffle]

Spider Climb

The material component is eating a live spider when casting the spell.

NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE

[HaikenEdge]

Darkness. Because it makes night brighter.

[Kurald Galain]

Spider Climb

The material component is eating a live spider when casting the spell.

For that matter, one of my least favorite rules has to be spell components, both for the unnecessary bookkeeping and for the horrible puns. Seriously, does anyone even use them? (other than by just writing "component pouch" on your sheet and forgetting about it)

[Spore]

Blessing of Fervor (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/spells/blessingOfFervor.html#_blessing-of-fervor)

It's just too good. Free metamagic, Haste effects, untyped bonusses, extra movement speed? It's so good I am forced to cast this every encounter in the first round. And it's nowhere near as fun as casting a fireball or confusion. I get it that Clerics should be buffing but on a Favored Soul/Oracle this spell just gets silly.

[ddude987]

My least favorite spell has to be dispel magic, not because it takes forever to resolve, but because my DM always dispels my buffs but I can never dispel his >.<

[Eldest]

Blessing of Fervor (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/spells/blessingOfFervor.html#_blessing-of-fervor)

It's just too good. Free metamagic, Haste effects, untyped bonusses, extra movement speed? It's so good I am forced to cast this every encounter in the first round. And it's nowhere near as fun as casting a fireball or confusion. I get it that Clerics should be buffing but on a Favored Soul/Oracle this spell just gets silly.

It's haste, but only one of the effects applying at a time, and with a bonus effect for spellcasters.

[dextercorvia]

Outside of TO cheese, Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer. You cast a 4th level spell, so that you can prepare a 3rd level spell (or a 1st and 2nd, or 3 1sts). It takes a long time to cast, so, wanding it isn't particularly useful. But, wait, you say that means if I suddenly need a third level spell in the middle of the day I can prepare it. You can already do that! By leaving a 3rd level slot open, and spending 15 minute as opposed to 10. You can't even really extend it, as the duration is Instantaneous, and the spell fades after 24 hours regardless.

The only way to make it useful is to cast it the night before a big adventure for a couple extra spells, that you might use during the first part of the first day of your adventure. It just makes me angry, because it could be a good spell.

[Shining Wrath]

Daylight is pretty lame for level 3. A spell that costs 150 GP for a scroll but can be duplicated by a 2 GP sunrod?

[Rubik]

Daylight is pretty lame for level 3. A spell that costs 150 GP for a scroll but can be duplicated by a 2 GP sunrod?Or, for that matter, a friggin' cantrip.

It'd be great if it negatively impacted undead and fiends or something, but it's basically a slightly brighter Light spell.

[Shining Wrath]

Or, for that matter, a friggin' cantrip.

It'd be great if it negatively impacted undead and fiends or something, but it's basically a slightly brighter Light spell.

The only thing it does that Light (or a Sunrod) doesn't do is negate a Darkness spell.

That's it.

[Hangwind]

For me the Apocalypse from the Sky was the biggest disappointment. Really, the only thing it could possibly ever do is kill everything in a ten-mile radius...that poses no threat of any sort to you. Really? It doesn't even have any useful side effects! the only thing it will ever do is make it so everything left hates you!

[Kennisiou]

For that matter, one of my least favorite rules has to be spell components, both for the unnecessary bookkeeping and for the horrible puns. Seriously, does anyone even use them? (other than by just writing "component pouch" on your sheet and forgetting about it)

Not that I'm aware of. By RAW if you have a component pouch then any spell components for a spell that don't have a cost listed are just, assumed to be in it at all times. This gets particularly funny with some spells, like there's a spell somewhere that requires the brain of a recently-dead intelligent creature as a component (recently as in "within the last ten hours). It has no cost listed. So you're just, like, assumed to constantly be getting intelligent creature brains somehow and putting them in your sack if you know that spell. Pretty sure it was awaken construct.

When I DM I basically just treat spell components as another limiting factor on spells like verbal or somatic. You have to be able to move your arms, have your component pouch on you, and be capable of reaching it, so basically you can cast these spells fine as long as you aren't pinned, paralyzed, etc. If the component is expensive just deduct the gp cost from your current gp. If it's very expensive I may require you to have some book-keeping and actually looking around to buy it.

[Blightedmarsh]

Least favorite spell? Any spell that doesn't cause SAN loss.

SAN mechanics: Balancing ultimate power with stark raving madness for 30 years.

[Rubik]

There are quite a number of psionic powers that are a few levels higher than they ought to be, considering how less-than-useful they are. And yes, that includes quite a few 1st level powers. Since powers are supposed to remain useful from levels 1-20, and they need enough versatility to compete against things like Skate, Time Hop, Astral Construct, and Psionic Minor Creation, even 1st level ones need to be decently useful.

Astral Traveler? Not worth knowing, even if you're a nomad. Bolt? Psionic Minor Creation does that and much, much, much more. Catfall is worth far less than Feather Fall, unless it protects you from being tripped or knocked prone, and then it's only kinda worth it. Conceal Thoughts? No. Control Flames? No. Control Light and Create Sound? Waffling on the first, and flat-out no on the second. Psionic Daze? No. Detect Psionics? No. Distract? If it was an AoE. But single-target? No. Ecto Protection? Definitely not. Empty Mind? No. Far Hand? That's a friggin' cantrip. No. Float? At 1 round/lvl, with no augmentation? No. Know Direction and Location? No. Matter Agitation? Not without augmentation or scaling damage, so no. Missive? No. My Light? No. Thicken Skin? Cantrip-level, at best, so no. Control Object? It's good for the first four levels or so, but beyond that, no. Burst? Hell no. Detect Teleportation? Important when you need it, but how often will that be? Elfsight? It'd be great if it were augmentable to other sensory modes, such as darkvision, See Invisibility, Blindsense, and such, but low light vision? En. Oh. Grip of Iron? I'd only take it because it's one of the few Immediate Action powers in existence, and so it works well with Linked Power. Beyond that, no. Why are Metaphysical Claw and Metaphysical Weapon separate? Why are Prevenom and Prevenom Weapon separate? So, no.

And that's just the 1st level powers. The 2nd-4th are generally pretty good (with a few terrible standouts), but the higher level you get, the more powers you find that just don't stand up to lower level stuff (like Time Hop). It's ridiculous.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Jumping in on the Tenser's Transformation bandwagon, especially when compared to divine power, which is bit only two levels lower, but both lacks the material component and doesn't nuke your casting powers. Nightstalker's transformation has similar problems, but being a level lower means it's easier to bypass the personal only target.

[Jormengand]

Least useful spell? Uhm... fire trap is a good contender for that one, I think.

Least useful SLA? The 4th-level LPM utterances which aren't conjunctive gate. If that's not a satisfying answer, I guess most of the LCT utterances qualify too - there's something satisfying about being able to cast empowered timestop from a scroll, but really now? Practically none of the others are at all useful.

Most annoying spell? Gate. Most annoying SLA? You guessed it. Whoever thought it was a good idea to let a wizard 17 flood the world with solars as a standard action, and a cleric 17 or truenamer 20 to pull the same trick as a swift action deserves to be slapped around the face with Bigby's Slapping Hand.

Spell which is annoying for being used for everything except for its intended purpose? Locate City.

SLA which is annoying for being used for everything except for its intended purpose? Conjunctive Gate wins this slot again. Yes, you get the most broken spell in the PHB at-will as a swift action, we get that. That's not what you're meant to use it for.

Spells which are just fricking stupid? Prestidigitation, Limited Wish, Wish and Miracle are all way too badly defined for me to want to screw around with them. Prestidigitation also makes half the other cantrips useless anyway.

But my least favourite spell? Create. Water.

Why? Because two gallons are heavy. 16.7 pounds, which is 7.5 kilograms. I, being fairly light, weight 126 pounds. An eighth level Cleric can create water which weighs more than me, and in PF that's at-will. This is without ioun stones, caster lenses (or scroll-equivalents thereof) or any other clever way you can think of to increase your CL. Taking that into account, a 12th-level cleric can be dropping about two adults' worth of water on something as a standard action.

The reason I dislike this spell, however, is due to a rogue deciding to sneak into a castle, stand at the top of the tallest tower, close the trapdoor, and flood the castle with a couple of wands of create water (He pointed out that the weight of water would eventually break the trapdoor, which I kinda had to concede). This didn't destroy the castle, but the rogue did manage to inflict honestly stupid amounts of damage to everything due to the layout of the castle. This annoyed me quite a lot.

Why couldn't it create a sensible amount of water?

[The_Ditto]

Why couldn't it create a sensible amount of water?

Oh, that's the Metric version "Create Water, eh?" "Creates 1 litre of water / caster level"
:smalltongue:

[Pex]

Blessing of Fervor (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/spells/blessingOfFervor.html#_blessing-of-fervor)

It's just too good. Free metamagic, Haste effects, untyped bonusses, extra movement speed? It's so good I am forced to cast this every encounter in the first round. And it's nowhere near as fun as casting a fireball or confusion. I get it that Clerics should be buffing but on a Favored Soul/Oracle this spell just gets silly.

My group loves me for it. It's been a boon and a life saver.

As for the thread:

Detect/Protection/Magic Circle/Dispel Chaos/Law

I'm sure they have their uses, but you just have to know you'll need them specifically. Most opponent faced are guaranteed to be evil so the Evil versions are all you need. I've never had to cast them in all my years of playing.

[Afgncaap5]

For that matter, one of my least favorite rules has to be spell components, both for the unnecessary bookkeeping and for the horrible puns. Seriously, does anyone even use them? (other than by just writing "component pouch" on your sheet and forgetting about it)

I do.

Seriously, I do. And the people in my gaming group who really like roleplaying do. We've even created house rules based upon them.

Case in point: we've ruled that a wizard with an intelligence of at least 14 (so, every wizard we'll ever have) auto-succeeds on identifying Hideous Laughter. It's the only spell where the casting action involves throwing miniature pies (well, tarts to be fair) at the target. No need to cast Spellcraft to identify that one, that's just basic magic lore 101.

I can understand why people find the use of material components to be frustrating if it doesn't fit their play style. Some people don't want to be "wizards", they just want to channel energy into unusual effects, like Harry Potter and those kids who learned how to use their energy-guns that were called wands. And that's fine.

However, in my gaming group we like our wizards pay the price for their arcane lore. Even if that horrible, terrible price is eating a protein-rich spider to unleash the flavor/eldritch potency trapped within.

[VoxRationis]

Daylight affects a lot of monsters specifically, if I remember correctly. It doesn't say anything about it in the spell description itself, but a lot of monsters are hindered or harmed significantly by the spell, as listed in their descriptions.

I'd have to go with things like resistance and aid. Tiny bonuses, one-use in the case of resistance, and at the same level as genuinely useful spells like detect magic, cure light wounds, and disrupt undead. Even a 1st-level cleric or wizard should have better things to do with their spell slots and actions than cast these spells, even if it's just to make an attack with a crossbow.

[KorbeltheReader]

Oh man, darkness. I don't know what made that spell deserve a nerf bat to the nethers like that, but shadowy illumination granting a 20% miss? For a second level spell?

It just contributes to the sad sack of fail that is the 3.5 ogre mage.

[Totema]

Explosive Runes. (Sorry, Vaarsuvius.) it's a really underwhelming effect for all the awesome flavor and utility it touts.

[VoxRationis]

Doesn't the Test of Spite ban Explosive Runes as overpowered?

[pwykersotz]

Mass Cure X Wounds

I have played many healing classes. My fellow gamers have as well. We have never been able to see this as anything other than a waste of a spell slot. Suboptimal role meets suboptimal spell filling that roll at too high of a spell level.

[Jormengand]

Doesn't the Test of Spite ban Explosive Runes as overpowered?
Yup, due to abusability rather than actual power.

[VoxRationis]

What abusability? The possibility of stacking a lot of them on an area?
You can fix that as a DM by ruling that you can't "pull the punch" on a dispel check, since you can't "pull the punch" on a fireball or similar spell.

[Rubik]

What abusability? The possibility of stacking a lot of them on an area?
You can fix that as a DM by ruling that you can't "pull the punch" on a dispel check, since you can't "pull the punch" on a fireball or similar spell.You can always cast a spell at minimal CL.

[HammeredWharf]

All the Daylight votes surprise me. It's a solid spell for general dungeon crawling, because only seeing 40 or 60 feet ahead is a great way to get ambushed. Dancing Lights is a decent alternative, but doesn't last long enough for extended stay in dungeons or caverns.

My vote goes to Meteor Swarm. It sounds awesome, until you realize it's a bunch of pew-pew balls instead of this (http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2012/337/9/2/apocalypse_by_push_pulse-d5my8ln.jpg).

[eggynack]

This thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?343669-Want-to-create-a-trial-but-zone-of-truth-makes-all-trials-simply-retelling-the-event) reminded me that I should add zone of truth to the list of spells I hate. It looks like a really strong spell, granting you access to truth, the noblest of all things, but zone of truth just does not do what it says it does. Between the fact that your opponent can say nothing, or tell misleading truths, and the fact that you are not alerted to an opponent's success against the save, I'd estimate that your truth access is completely and utterly unchanged through the use of the spell.

In fact, I'd assert that you're likely to gain worse information with the spell than without it, because it makes you predisposed to think that creatures within the zone are being honest, while not using the spell lets you be a bit more objective about things. It's probably not as much of an issue if you know that you're not getting perfect truth from the spell, but then you're really choosing between the spell actively misleading you, or the spell doing nothing. It's just not very good.

[Rijan_Sai]

SUMMON TV TROPES (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HomePage)

Enchantment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#enchantment) (Compulsion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#compulsion)) [Mind-Affecting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#descriptor)] [Vile]

Level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#level): Poster 1, Playground 1
Components (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#components): S
Casting Time (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#castingTime): 1 round/link
Range (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#range): 1 post
Effect (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#effect): One or more links (see text)
Duration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#duration): permanent
Saving Throw (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#savingThrow): Will negates
Spell Resistance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#spellResistance): No

This spell causes one or more links to TV Tropes (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HomePage) to appear in a post. These links cause those that click on them to view the site, which devours their souls (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YourSoulIsMine) and slowly transforms (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SlowTransformation) them into mindless zombies (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OurZombiesAreDifferent)...basically, it's an Obvious Trap (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SchmuckBait?from=Main.ObviousTrap).

Edit: Forgot the "Vile" descriptor :smallamused:

[Vedhin]

SUMMON TV TROPES (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HomePage)

Enchantment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#enchantment) (Compulsion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#compulsion)) [Mind-Affecting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#descriptor)]

Level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#level): Poster 1, Playground 1
Components (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#components): S
Casting Time (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#castingTime): 1 round/link
Range (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#range): 1 post
Effect (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#effect): One or more links (see text)
Duration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#duration): permanent
Saving Throw (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#savingThrow): Will negates
Spell Resistance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#spellResistance): No

This spell causes one or more links to TV Tropes (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HomePage) to appear in a post. These links cause those that click on them to view the site, which devours their souls (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YourSoulIsMine) and slowly transforms (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SlowTransformation) them into mindless zombies (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OurZombiesAreDifferent)...basically, it's an Obvious Trap (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SchmuckBait?from=Main.ObviousTrap).

You are vile and I will link this post randomly.





Anyway, least favorite spell is Death Throes from the SC. For a 5th level spell, you ensure that you can only be brought back with True Res or the like. Not that you will get the chance; your death nuked your allies in the face.

If it was a cantrip or 1st level spell, it would be amusing to see a BBEG with a legion of suicide bomber wizards. As it is, it's horrible.

[Pex]

Mass Cure X Wounds

I have played many healing classes. My fellow gamers have as well. We have never been able to see this as anything other than a waste of a spell slot. Suboptimal role meets suboptimal spell filling that roll at too high of a spell level.

I used to think that too, but in a recent combat against undead it came in quite handy for necessary party healing and hurting the enemy in one action. It's not a tactic I would do all the time, but at that particular moment it was needed.

However, I totally disagree with "suboptimal role" by presumption you mean healer. I'm playing a Pathfinder Life Oracle. Another player has done the math. I effectively give the party triple their hit points. I don't only heal, doing buffs as well as some attack spells, but the party can safely go full offense because I handle their hit points so well. It's not the ultimate tactic, just one of several that works. Not because of me specifically, but the DM has been overcompensating lately due to party power causing every combat to be slug fest with CR's too high for our level. We're discussing it with him how to make combat better balanced. In the meantime, I kept the party alive and kicking, giving us victory. It's a slug fest problem because it drains too much of our resources. We have to nova then rest or else the second combat of the day would be a TPK regardless of anyone.

[VoxRationis]

Anyway, least favorite spell is Death Throes from the SC. For a 5th level spell, you ensure that you can only be brought back with True Res or the like. Not that you will get the chance; your death nuked your allies in the face.

If it was a cantrip or 1st level spell, it would be amusing to see a BBEG with a legion of suicide bomber wizards. As it is, it's horrible.

It's probably meant to be used by NPC wizards who a) don't have allies, just low-level minions who can't resurrect them anyway; and b) probably die surrounded by PCs.

[Leviting]

My vote goes to Meteor Swarm. It sounds awesome, until you realize it's a bunch of pew-pew balls instead of this (http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2012/337/9/2/apocalypse_by_push_pulse-d5my8ln.jpg).

I will say, I'm pretty sure that picture is for apocalypse from the sky, not shooting four flaming pebbles out of your hand. Plus, honestly, if you are actually going to cast apocalypse from the sky, It shouldn't be for damage, it should be for pure rampant vengeful destruction, like in the Elder Evils book.

[Ravens_cry]

I hate Freedom of Movement and Wind Wall. They completely invalidate otherwise legitimate and thematic modes of play, the Grappler and the Archer. That just bugs the heck out of me.

[ryu]

I hate Freedom of Movement and Wind Wall. They completely invalidate otherwise legitimate and thematic modes of play, the Grappler and the Archer. That just bugs the heck out of me.

Yes but think of it this way: Freedom of movement discourages use of the grapple rules. How can that not be seen as a net positive to the game as a whole?

[Flash1191]

Virtue. Oh dear God, Virtue.

Every time I look at the paladin spell list, I am insulted that they included this as a 1st level spell. A paladin can't cast any spells until level 4, and it's very possible that they only get one spell per day at that level. Who in their right mind would ever use their sole spell for one temp HP?

[TrueJordan]

When I'm a spellcaster, I'm a huge fan of the Summon Nature's Ally spells, but it basically completely invalidates any melee class especially after buffs and whatnot, especially especially if the druid's specialization is in summoning. (early game, at least).

Also not a huge fan of the Polymorph/Shapechange spells, unless of course I'm playing a spellcaster and want my friends to go home with low self esteem.

Erm. Incantatricies. And anyone who can persist high level spells. Like. Wat.

[Ravens_cry]

Yes but think of it this way: Freedom of movement discourages use of the grapple rules. How can that not be seen as a net positive to the game as a whole?
I'd rather that was fixed by simplifying the grapple rules rather than having an automatic 'No' to grapplers.

[eggynack]

When I'm a spellcaster, I'm a huge fan of the Summon Nature's Ally spells, but it basically completely invalidates any melee class especially after buffs and whatnot, especially especially if the druid's specialization is in summoning. (early game, at least).
It doesn't help matters that they inexplicably put oreads at SNA VI, granting spontaneous access to an 8th level spell out of 6th level slots. This is especially problematic when you consider the fact that you're getting a summoned earthquake, rather than a standard one, which means that you also get a bunch of other powerful spell likes, particularly transmute rock to mud/mud to rock.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I'm surprised no one has listed Disjunction, the wealth destroyer. The sad part is how necessary that spell is to remove buffs in high level play...

[FabulousFizban]

all of divination. It isn't that the spells are bad, but except for detect magic, your wizard should NEVER prepare a divination spell. It is a waste. If you find yourself in a situation where you require divination magic, it is usually a situation that can wait 8 hours while you sleep and prepare the relevant spell. Or better yet, scrolls.

But the winner for worst spell ever is virtue as a paladin spell.

[VoxRationis]

all of divination. It isn't that the spells are bad, but except for detect magic, your wizard should NEVER prepare a divination spell. It is a waste. If you find yourself in a situation where you require divination magic, it is usually a situation that can wait 8 hours while you sleep and prepare the relevant spell. Or better yet, scrolls.


I highly disagree. Divination allows you to determine what that relevant spell is. Knowledge is power, and a wizard depends on preparation for appropriate circumstances. Furthermore, rogue-based scouting is often infeasible due to distances which scrying can ignore, and your enemies suffer majorly if they can't outmaneuver you due to your knowledge of what's going on.

[Vedhin]

all of divination. It isn't that the spells are bad, but except for detect magic, your wizard should NEVER prepare a divination spell. It is a waste. If you find yourself in a situation where you require divination magic, it is usually a situation that can wait 8 hours while you sleep and prepare the relevant spell. Or better yet, scrolls.

Unluck. One of the best third level spells in the game. Hit something with this, and it rolls 2d20 instead of 1d20 for caster level rounds, taking the worst of the two.
Also, Alter Fortune, a spell capable of fixing pretty much any mistake. The XP cost is a nuisance, but it's never bad to have, and is low enough level you can easily have it prepared

[Agincourt]

Unluck. One of the best third level spells in the game. Hit something with this, and it rolls 2d20 instead of 1d20 for caster level rounds, taking the worst of the two.


Unluck, for me, fits the OP's question well. It has potential, but it just is not very good. It is Will negates. A character uses up a standard action for possibly no benefit. You're better off just casting the spell you're hoping the enemy fails the save against. It'd be better if it targeted a different save or if it were a ray attack or something. Will is the one save you can count on enemy spellcasters having good saves for.

[Vedhin]

Unluck, for me, fits the OP's question well. It has potential, but it just is not very good. It is Will negates. A character uses up a standard action for possibly no benefit. You're better off just casting the spell you're hoping the enemy fails the save against. It'd be better if it targeted a different save or if it were a ray attack or something. Will is the one save you can count on enemy spellcasters having good saves for.

You don't typically use it on casters-- they don't make d20 rolls that often. You cast it on melee brutes, and watch as their attack rolls fail miserably. It's also not really a save debuffer either (though it does do that, it's not the reason to use it).

[Riston]

I hate Freedom of Movement and Wind Wall. They completely invalidate otherwise legitimate and thematic modes of play, the Grappler and the Archer. That just bugs the heck out of me.
Seconded. I'd also add Mind Blank to the list - it basicly invalidates two whole schools of magic.

[Rubik]

Seconded. I'd also add Mind Blank to the list - it basicly invalidates two whole schools of magic.It eviscerates enchantment and blunts a small portion of illusion -- phantasms and patterns, but not figments, glamors, or shadow spells. The former two are subschools are mind-affecting; the latter three aren't.

[eggynack]

It eviscerates enchantment and blunts a small portion of illusion -- phantasms and patterns, but not figments, glamors, or shadow spells. The former two are subschools are mind-affecting; the latter three aren't.
I think the second school in question is divination, rather than illusion. It's probably not perfect protection but it's a pretty strong effect, where divination is concerned.

[Rubik]

I think the second school in question is divination, rather than illusion. It's probably not perfect protection but it's a pretty strong effect, where divination is concerned.You know, I wasn't even thinking about that. Thanks for the catch.

Does Mind Blank prevent divinatory buff effects? How about casting your own divinations to determine your future?

[Ravens_cry]

Seconded. I'd also add Mind Blank to the list - it basicly invalidates two whole schools of magic.
True, but at least it's an 8th level spell, so it only comes up in really high level play. The Protection from X spells eviscerate a lot of the fun Enchantment spells though, and they comes a lot sooner.

[Rijan_Sai]

You are vile and I will link this post randomly.
Must sig this!!

Also, I agree with Virtue (Pal 1?!? WTH?!?) and Meteor Swarm. Evocation and "blasting" spells in general should be much better...but maybe I see it that way because I come from many years of Final Fantasy, where attack magic is actually useful...

[Vedhin]

Must sig this!!

Go ahead. Words for the spam filter!

[dextercorvia]

Does Mind Blank prevent divinatory buff effects? How about casting your own divinations to determine your future?

There is a pretty good argument to be made that if you are under Mind Blank you can't even benefit from your own Foresight spell. That used to get argued about fairly regularly, so I'm sure you can find an old thread with a little googling.

[Yawgmoth]

Anything with a costly material component. It's just a pain to keep track of them and the spell effect is never good enough to justify the time or money spent. Costly foci are almost as bad because it's basically an arbitrary tax on learning the spell.

Also, I hate that enchantment spells have components at all. Kinda hard to subtly work the magic when you're flailing about and muttering in draconic, you know?

[Vedhin]

Also, I hate that enchantment spells have components at all. Kinda hard to subtly work the magic when you're flailing about and muttering in draconic, you know?

That's why I use price of loyalty from Magic of Eberron. The only component is a focus (sad), a platinum piece which is given to the target (you lose 10gp/casting, essentially).

[Ravens_cry]

That's why I use price of loyalty from Magic of Eberron. The only component is a focus (sad), a platinum piece which is given to the target (you lose 10gp/casting, essentially).
You think it'd be 3 gold, paid in silver pieces preferably.:smalltongue:

[VoxRationis]

Also, I hate that enchantment spells have components at all. Kinda hard to subtly work the magic when you're flailing about and muttering in draconic, you know?

Along this line, the message spell is useless for this exact reason. It has both verbal and somatic components; the former requires that you speak clearly. Thus, you can't cast the spell subtly without metamagic or going into another room to cast first. Also, it says you have to point at the target, but the spell also says the spell doesn't require a straight line of effect, which is paradoxical.

As for enchantments being unsubtle, that's one of my first thoughts whenever people say that the wizard can use Charm Person to automatically replace the rogue or bard as party spokesman. Firstly, the target has to fail a save against a 1st-level spell, which is iffy in the first place. Secondly, the wizard stands intently in front of the subject, loudly waving his hands and chanting, which in many cases is begging for a bodyguard to intervene (after all, you could be casting anything!). Thirdly, if the target has any nearby compatriots, they're probably going to notice that their friend/leader/king is being oddly chummy with this random stranger. The bizarre idea of suddenly being best friends with the subject can be explained away with "it's magic," but the rest of the consequences can't, because the magic doesn't mention dealing with them.

[nedz]

Magic Missile.
Especially if taken by a level 1 caster.

It has a small amount of utility, but not all that much; and I've seen it used too much.

[HammeredWharf]

As for enchantments being unsubtle, that's one of my first thoughts whenever people say that the wizard can use Charm Person to automatically replace the rogue or bard as party spokesman. Firstly, the target has to fail a save against a 1st-level spell, which is iffy in the first place. Secondly, the wizard stands intently in front of the subject, loudly waving his hands and chanting, which in many cases is begging for a bodyguard to intervene (after all, you could be casting anything!).

That's true in Core, but with splats, you've got things like Conceal Spellcasting. You can also use Bluff to tell the target you're casting Prestidigitation to wash your hands. Generally, however, I agree Enchantment is far from subtle, especially because you can easily detect its effects with Detect Magic.

Actually, while we're on the subject of spells that make Enchantment useless, there's Protection From Evil. Its secondary effect is ridiculous for a first level spell.

[nyjastul69]

My least favorite is a toss up. I don't like Darkness because darkness shouldn't cause illumination, not even 'shadowy illumination, whatever that is. I also dislike the Orb line of spells. All of them except Orb of Acid are in the wrong school. I especially dislike Orb of Force because it seems like one is conjuring a non-magical orb of magical force.

[Jeff the Green]

I have a love/hate relationship with shadow conjuration/evocation. On the one hand, they're really cool effects and not too powerful. On the other, they're a headache to adjudicate and give most spells like three times as many rolls to resolve.


This thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?343669-Want-to-create-a-trial-but-zone-of-truth-makes-all-trials-simply-retelling-the-event) reminded me that I should add zone of truth to the list of spells I hate. It looks like a really strong spell, granting you access to truth, the noblest of all things, but zone of truth just does not do what it says it does. Between the fact that your opponent can say nothing, or tell misleading truths, and the fact that you are not alerted to an opponent's success against the save, I'd estimate that your truth access is completely and utterly unchanged through the use of the spell.

In fact, I'd assert that you're likely to gain worse information with the spell than without it, because it makes you predisposed to think that creatures within the zone are being honest, while not using the spell lets you be a bit more objective about things. It's probably not as much of an issue if you know that you're not getting perfect truth from the spell, but then you're really choosing between the spell actively misleading you, or the spell doing nothing. It's just not very good.

It's not that hard to get around that limitation. Cast it, then guidance of the avatar and/or divine insight and ask "Are you currently compelled to tell the truth?" 25+CL to Sense Motive makes it really hard to Bluff for that one question, and it's the only one you need mundane confirmation for.

[Pex]

Geek alert:

Recent episode of Agent of Shield gave a prime example of how Zone of Truth spell can fail utterly.



Ward passes an "invincible" lie detector test by telling the literal truth, gets his lanyard pass, and kills his interrogator.

[Jeff the Green]

Geek alert:

Recent episode of Agent of Shield gave a prime example of how Zone of Truth spell can fail utterly.



Ward passes an "invincible" lie detector test by telling the literal truth, gets his lanyard pass, and kills his interrogator.



Well, yes, that's why you act like an attorney on cross examination and ask the same question a number of times on different phrasing.

[Vedhin]

Well, yes, that's why you act like an attorney on cross examination and ask the same question a number of times on different phrasing.

And that's when the witness says "hey, you already asked that same basic question. Did you not hear me earlier when I said *insert weasel words here*?"

It recycles the same answer, and is nearly foolproof.

[Pinkie Pyro]

buff spells with a range of "personal"

all to often, they'd be a real boon to your tank/front line fighter type, yet situational at best on a caster.

[Ravens_cry]

buff spells with a range of "personal"

all to often, they'd be a real boon to your tank/front line fighter type, yet situational at best on a caster.
I had an idea for a minor rebalance that most personal buffs gave a similar, smaller buff to other characters. So they make you a Fighter+, but they also make the Fighter more plus as well. That way they help everyone and not just the caster who wants to play Fighter+.

[HunterOfJello]

Geas because it sounds so cool and could be so very fun to use if it was actually created properly. It is a great idea for a spell with absolutely terrible execution. The fact that lesser geas is better than geas is just sad.

[VoxRationis]

Geas because it sounds so cool and could be so very fun to use if it was actually created properly. It is a great idea for a spell with absolutely terrible execution. The fact that lesser geas is better than geas is just sad.

Better in some ways. Geas has no saving throw against anything but the sickened effect. A good Will save can shut down lesser geas right off the bat.

[Pinkie Pyro]

I had an idea for a minor rebalance that most personal buffs gave a similar, smaller buff to other characters. So they make you a Fighter+, but they also make the Fighter more plus as well. That way they help everyone and not just the caster who wants to play Fighter+.

My solution is to make metamagic reach move the range up 1 step (personal>touch>close>medium>long>longX2)

[Ravens_cry]

My solution is to make metamagic reach move the range up 1 step (personal>touch>close>medium>long>longX2)
It still means it costs more to help others than to help yourself.