DND Wizard VS Modern D20

[Xar Zarath]

hey guys so this thread is about the whole wizard vs modern earth. There have been many threads like this and it usually boils down to high level wizard nuking world etc.

So this thread is in the same vein only this time with some prereqs:

A singular Wizard 20 vs Modern Earth using d20 rules only without magic of their own
-For argument's sake lets say magic exists in our world, however we cant do magic( no knowledge of it)
-Both sides knew about each other, difference Modern Earth knew 12 months in advance, Wizard knew 6 months
-Wizard will get no help from Moderns unless he uses magic on them
-Modern Earth objective is to kill wizard, but wont automatically just nuke
-wizard has to kill world leaders and millions of people? (honestly I cant figure out a plausible objective for the wizard)

So I guess that's about it...let the battle royale begin!

[Kamin_Majere]

Wizard crushes earth.

Wightocolypse would devastate this planet as we literally have NOTHING that could effect one... heck popping in and creating a single Incorporeal creature capable of making more of itself in a place like New York/Tokyo/Mexico City/etc would eventually turn the planet to a world of the undead.

Then there are all the defensive spells that make the wizard literally immune to any weapon we could throw at it. About the only thing we have is science and it gave us the ability to split the atom... maybe a nuke could take the wizard out before it set itself up as uncontested ruler of our crystal sphere... but i'm pretty sure Elminsters Evasion and enough contingencies would easily take care of even that.

Heck with the sheer wealth a wizard could create he could buy off the greedy earth population to work for him and summon in literal daemons and devils to cause mass death and destruction and very few of our weapons could harm them. That on top of bringing in ACTUAL angels to completely dominate some entire world religions to service would make any cohesive effort on our part nearly impossible.

So yeah if ever a wizard came to our world... i'm just going to get out of its way or be number 4 in line for the dominate person so i can welcome our new magic wielding overlord

[Eldan]

Yeah. Thing is, there are so many things a wizard could do that d20 couldn't even remotely defend against. Anything incorporeal. Including the wizard, if he knows Ghostform. The wizard can just hide on another plane, or in his own Astral Projection or Magnificent Mansion. A single shadow would probably kill the entire planet, given time.

[DigoDragon]

How much of each other's abilities do they understand? What spells does the wizard know? Does our modern world have things like the astral plane for the wizard to hide in? If so, does it also have dangerous creatures that could harm the wizard?

Our modern technology has some pretty scary weapons that can be difficult if not impossible to notice until they hit. While the wizard could conquor the Earth easily, he's going to have to be always vigilant about his daily activities. If he knows nothing about radiation and modern diseases, he might get killed by gray overdose or the flu. I just think there's too many questions and variables to make a definitive call.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Trivially easy conquest.

Wizard can teleport around at random while intangible and rain down whatever flavor of destruction he prefers.

Wizard can mind control the appropriate people while using impenetrible disguises to turn armies against each other.

[Abithrios]

Mutally assured destruction would still apply. I do not know of any magical defeses designed against radiation, so the wizard would either need to pretend to play nice or find somewhere else to live besides Earth.

The whightpocolypse would inevitably draw down the nukepocolypse, which would kill everyone on Earth who is not immune to radiation.

[Sir Chuckles]

Mutally assured destruction would still apply. I do not know of any magical defeses designed against radiation, so the wizard would either need to pretend to play nice or find somewhere else to live besides Earth.

The whightpocolypse would inevitably draw down the nukepocolypse, which would kill everyone on Earth who is not immune to radiation.

The Wizard could easily teleport away from the nuke, and you also have to take into consideration that he could very well have a Clone set up. If he could use Astral Projection, it's likely that radiation would not effect him. Plus, how long would it really be before a 30+ Int person researches a branch of Protection of Energy to cover radiation?

There's also rules for sending spells via Email in d20Modern. Take that for what you will.

In the end, I see no way of stopping a 20th level 3.5 Wizard from ruling, destroying, making it his personal play thing, or even remaking in his vision our modern world, so long as he has his sights set on it.

[Xar Zarath]

How much of each other's abilities do they understand? What spells does the wizard know? Does our modern world have things like the astral plane for the wizard to hide in? If so, does it also have dangerous creatures that could harm the wizard?

Our modern technology has some pretty scary weapons that can be difficult if not impossible to notice until they hit. While the wizard could conquor the Earth easily, he's going to have to be always vigilant about his daily activities. If he knows nothing about radiation and modern diseases, he might get killed by gray overdose or the flu. I just think there's too many questions and variables to make a definitive call.

Just to make it interesting Modern Earth knows about ALL the abilities, but they may not be so trusting of the wizard's capabilities. They think just because he CAN destroy them all, not necessarily he WILL.

As for the Wizard, he is aware of the high end stuff like Nukes, Bios, Chems and the Net, stuff like that.

[ryu]

Just to make it interesting Modern Earth knows about ALL the abilities, but they may not be so trusting of the wizard's capabilities. They think just because he CAN destroy them all, not necessarily he WILL.

As for the Wizard, he is aware of the high end stuff like Nukes, Bios, Chems and the Net, stuff like that.

Wizard continues to win. I welcome our new magical overlord and hope that in exchange I get to keep my life and mind.

[Rubik]

Wizard continues to win. I welcome our new magical overlord and hope that in exchange I get to keep my life and mind.I can't help but notice that you didn't mention sanity or soul.

Muahahahaha!

...ahem.

[T.G. Oskar]

It depends on how much of his old life does a 20th level Wizard remember when traveling to Earth.

If using d20 Modern rules, you can have a character using D&D rules stay for a while, but any longer and the Gift of Lethe kicks in, making him forget everything. If that happens, then Earth wins, because the Wizard will have to adapt to the rules.

If that's ignored, then you need to define whether the Ethereal Plane or the Astral Plane exist. d20 Modern is very specific to mention that it doesn't use D&D cosmology, and as the Manual of the Planes states, some spells don't work if you don't have access to the right plane. This is a big one, because if Earth lacks an Astral Plane, then the Wizard can't cast spells like Astral Projection, which is big.

Note, as well, that most 6th to 9th level spells would be treated as Incantations in Earth. Just as a reminder, the Wizard's Clone spell would be akin to the Clone incantation of Urban Arcana, so perhaps Earth's foremost incantation users would also create Clones and find ways to defeat those Clones easily. In this case, the biggest worry for the Wizard is that they get to his/her spellbook before s/he can do its job, or otherwise Earth could find as many incantations as possible that would level the field (as, despite their long casting time, they could be cast by just about anybody). Most likely, a Mage and an Occultist would be working together in tandem (maybe even with a Shadowjack?).

There's also just how much of d20 Modern is touched. If it's only the Core Rulebook and Urban Arcana, then you're just playing to the Wizard's terms. However, if you go the full suite, then you might get to deploy some game nasties.

At the very best, a Wizard wouldn't use touch attacks, as most Heroes would have decent touch AC due to class-based Defense bonuses. If going with a 20th level Hero, they also get good saves, so the Wizard will have to rely on summoning and no save spells, which are pretty varied.

I wouldn't say that the Wightocalypse would end the world, though. I mean, with so many zombie flicks, and Department-7 on the case, the case would probably be contained, at the very least. Power Attack still works like Power Attack, and Wights might not be that good against blessed Mossberg shotguns dealing ballistic damage.

In the end, while the Wizard still wins, it all depends on whether the Wizard gets its "home" advantage or if it has to adapt to the new rules. That also implies that Earth knows little about the Shadow community, rather than knowing about someone who's arbitrarily powerful. There's a few people around who might not take it kindly to see their new world get ravaged by a Wizard from the Shadows, and they're not entirely weak. d20 Modern Dragons are pretty scary (just as scary as D&D Dragons), Celestials and Fiends are custom-made (so the Wizard is blind to whose powers he can summon, and he can't summon Solars or else the Solars would turn on the Wizard and help the humans), and with enough Progress Level, spells are no match for advanced technology (and I don't just mean Mechas; I mean PL7-PL8 technology like automatic fire Pulse Rifles with the Burst Fire feat and Singularity Grenades).

And...why would the Wizard want to destroy the world? Trust me: a Shadowjack can destroy the Wizard just by introducing it to 4chan.

[ryu]

I can't help but notice that you didn't mention sanity or soul.

Muahahahaha!

...ahem.

Lost the first a long time ago and having my life kinda requires the second one.

[LTwerewolf]

having my life kinda requires the second one.

See, you say that...

[Rubik]

Lost the first a long time ago and having my life kinda requires the second one.But you could be a politician.

[ryu]

See, you say that...

Assuming it exists in the first place it really kinda is required. Also why on earth would the wizard want to create a new politician rather than simply mind-raping the ones we have and putting them to use? All that extra training and likely placement would just be more mental effort.

[Graypairofsocks]

I wouldn't say that the Wightocalypse would end the world, though. I mean, with so many zombie flicks, and Department-7 on the case, the case would probably be contained, at the very least. Power Attack still works like Power Attack, and Wights might not be that good against blessed Mossberg shotguns dealing ballistic damage.
Note that even if the Wightpocalypse is stoppable, there is always the Shadowpocalypse(and the somewhat weaker Wraithpocalypse).

Also OP said d20modern side didn't get magic of their own so you wouldn't really be able to get a blessed Shotgun.

[T.G. Oskar]

Note that even if the Wightpocalypse is stoppable, there is always the Shadowpocalypse(and the somewhat weaker Wraithpocalypse).

Provided the Shadows and the Wraiths lack weaknesses. Or they exist at all. Shadows as per D&D don't exist, nor Wights. There are ASH Wraiths, but those are scared of daylight.

In essence, you're assuming the Wizard can create or form monsters that don't exist on Earth. That's an assumption, not exactly part of the rules. That implies porting them and giving them no weaknesses, which is mostly giving advantage to the Wizard.


Also OP said d20modern side didn't get magic of their own so you wouldn't really be able to get a blessed Shotgun.

The OP says magic exists, but that Earthlings have no way to harness it on their own as they lack the knowledge. That'd be the equivalent of a Shadow Chasers campaign, but without the Shadow Slayer and the Occultist advanced classes.

Also: read Dark*Matter. Blessed shotguns and shells aren't crafted by magical means; they just are. Critical Locations also gives a way to create Holy Water through a ritual rather than a spell, so it's possible to affect undead (and Evil outsiders, which would really be Outsiders with an allegiance to Evil rather than an alignment to Evil). A shotgun could have been blessed but the knowledge to use it would be lost. Finally: the Mace of Cuthbert is hidden in London; Earth is not devoid of artifacts. Chances are someone's gonna get it (the Wizard could be, as well).

The scenario, if it is to be fair, involves that the Wizard has free access to its spellcasting, which is why everybody defaults to its victory: spells in D&D ARE really powerful. The challenge here is to see what the Modern world has to play with, because that's what really sets the difference. Note the argument of the OP is "the Wizard usually wins; let's see what happens with these prerequisites", and sets a very ambiguous set of rules where the only advantage between one side and the other is 6 months of advance knowledge, and that's it. We have to take assumptions about the matter, and it's odd that assumptions always incline in favor to the Wizard, rather than balanced to each other (hence, why I mentioned the Gift of Lethe, as the Wizard would be a Shadowkind creature).

At best, the rules would have to be refined to see a clear winner, other than "Wizard by default". I took very conservative assumptions: the Wizard isn't affected by Gift of Lethe or else it'd become a 20th level character with the powers of a Mage; the Wizard isn't seen for what he really is because the Shadows protect him; the existence of the Astral and Ethereal Planes are undefined; Earthlings have no access to the use of magic as would the Wizard, but the existence of magic doesn't preclude the existence of magic items... This sounds quite a bit as the Shadow Chasers campaign, but the way the rules are written don't allow for the existence of the Shadow Slayer and the Occultist, even though the former harnesses supernatural power by alternate means. To state that magic items don't exist in Earth is a thin line; to state that they can't be made at this moment as they would in an Urban Arcana campaign is fair, but even Shadow Chasers allow their existence, and that's for one reason. It's the same reason why the Core Rulebook suggests that every monster has some sort of weakness (and the reason why a Dragon, as presented in the Urban Arcana supplement, is effectively unkillable once it reaches its 5th age category even by Urban Arcana character standards).

[Slipperychicken]

But you could be a politician.

I think you mean "accountant". A wizard doesn't want the grunts to gain too much power.

[CIDE]

Wizard wins unless you include D20 Future stuff (specifically progress level 8 or 9). Pretty lopsided match at that.

[ryu]

I think you mean "accountant". A wizard doesn't want the grunts to gain too much power.

At that point why isn't he just making a Modron do it?

[Slipperychicken]

At that point why isn't he just making a Modron do it?

Because he just promised to let this poor guy live, and wants to take his soul out of spite, duh :smalltongue:

Besides, a TO wizard doesn't need an accountant anyway. He probably does his own taxes and financial statements in a fast-time demiplane after preparing spells (or uses an ice assassin to do it for him) several years ahead of time, using divinations and/or portfolio sense to predict all the values. And then uses a carefully-worded Wish for them to be delivered on time. Then, when his underpaid mortal accountant does the taxes, he audits them, deducts errors from the accountant's salary, and throws those copies into a sphere of annihilation while laughing about it.

[Xar Zarath]

It depends on how much of his old life does a 20th level Wizard remember when traveling to Earth.

...snip...

And...why would the Wizard want to destroy the world? Trust me: a Shadowjack can destroy the Wizard just by introducing it to 4chan.

The Wizard is not affected by the Gift, and can work normally within Earth, but can only stay for a month at a time. Meaning out of 12 months he can work in the world only 6 months.

1 month in-1 month out (this is because of plot device-I will try and think up a plausible reason.

As for him destroying the world, its because Earth has some sort of device or Mcguffin locked within that can only be released by the destruction of the world.

[Killer Angel]

Our modern technology has some pretty scary weapons that can be difficult if not impossible to notice until they hit.

This is very true, but the six months of preparation time for the wizard, annihilate the only advantage we could have.

[Eldan]

Plus, going by the d20 weapon stats for damage, they are very survivable for a high level character or monster. Not a wizard, probably, but a high level barbarian or so probably has a chance of tanking a nuke.

[Graypairofsocks]

OP could you please answer whether earth is coexistent with the Ethereal Plane and also the Astral plane.

The Astral plane part is important as planeshifting and teleportation uses the Astral plane and won't work without it.

And would you consider the coexistant dimension the dimensional horror(found in the d20modern srd and menace manual) hides in to be the ethereal plane?


Provided the Shadows and the Wraiths lack weaknesses. Or they exist at all. Shadows as per D&D don't exist, nor Wights. There are ASH Wraiths, but those are scared of daylight.

The Ash wraiths are mostly like normal wraiths (who are also scared of daylight), except they deal fire damage instead of Constitution damage + a little normal damage.



In essence, you're assuming the Wizard can create or form monsters that don't exist on Earth. That's an assumption, not exactly part of the rules. That implies porting them and giving them no weaknesses, which is mostly giving advantage to the Wizard.
Yes he can, because he can cast Create Greater Undead which can create Shadows or Wraiths.

While undead created by the Spell are not controlled by default you can cast control undead on them.

As spawn created by a shadow(or wraith) are controlled by the shadow that spawned them you just have to kill one person with the shadow and then keep the original near you and recast control undead on the original shadow when the duration is getting low.

And Giving 9th level spells is mostly giving an advantage to the wizard.



Also: read Dark*Matter. Blessed shotguns and shells aren't crafted by magical means; they just are. Critical Locations also gives a way to create Holy Water through a ritual rather than a spell, so it's possible to affect undead (and Evil outsiders, which would really be Outsiders with an allegiance to Evil rather than an alignment to Evil). A shotgun could have been blessed but the knowledge to use it would be lost. Finally: the Mace of Cuthbert is hidden in London; Earth is not devoid of artifacts. Chances are someone's gonna get it (the Wizard could be, as well).
I haven't read Dark*Matter(I don't have access to it either).

Also please link me to the specific Critical Locations article where it is found.
Never mind this, Critical locations is a book not a web article.

[John Longarrow]

Wizard shows up, gets lost in major electronics store, and three weeks later is found zoned out on Mountain Dew watching re-runs of Bay Watch and professional wrestling.

Now that the wizard has a less than 10 Int (due to the effects of professional wrestling) his new friends take him home for X-Box and take out. Wizard dies from excessive consumption of junk food during video game induced coma.

[Graypairofsocks]

Wizard shows up, gets lost in major electronics store, and three weeks later is found zoned out on Mountain Dew watching re-runs of Bay Watch and professional wrestling.
Unfortunately Find the Path is not on the Wizard spell list.
He could probably teleport out though.




Now that the wizard has a less than 10 Int (due to the effects of professional wrestling) his new friends take him home for X-Box and take out. Wizard dies from excessive consumption of junk food during video game induced coma.

Hopefully Mind Blank works against TV.

[John Longarrow]

Graypairofsocks

At least I'm using Professional Wrestling.

If we went with reality TV he'd either be a drooling vegitable or running in terror from this insane reality.

Hmm.. Unless he's an alienist already.... Then he'd better hope he doesn't wind up in a Japanese video store first.

[T.G. Oskar]

Yes he can, because he can cast Create Greater Undead which can create Shadows or Wraiths.

While undead created by the Spell are not controlled by default you can cast control undead on them.

As spawn created by a shadow(or wraith) are controlled by the shadow that spawned them you just have to kill one person with the shadow and then keep the original near you and recast control undead on the original shadow when the duration is getting low.

And Giving 9th level spells is mostly giving an advantage to the wizard.

Thing is, to have Shadows or Wraiths, you'd have to implant them into the d20 System, because there are no native rules for them in said system. This is important to clear out because it forms a precedent.

If the Wizard can create monsters that aren't part of the d20 Modern system, then that means the Wizard HAS to have acccess to the whole of D&D's Monster Manual, which means Solars, Pit Fiends, Balors, and all other monsters including and not limited to the Tarrasque. There are several monsters there that Earth wouldn't be able to fight, meaning Earth simply doesn't have a chance to beat them. However, this would be unfair advantage to the Wizard because you're allowing more than a fair share of books that are at times incompatible.

If, on the other hand, the Wizard on Earth is limited to the monsters in the d20 Modern Core Rulebook, Urban Arcana and Menace Manual, then things are VERY different instead. The rules in d20 Modern involve having supernatural monsters with at least one weakness, because it makes them easier to fight. This is an advantage to Earth, since while it doesn't give them the tools to fight them (Earth only knows that most cryptids suddenly exist), it gives them a weakness to play with. Hence, why I mentioned the Ash Wraith, which can create other Ash Wraiths, which can be created on Earth (and hence, fit for a Wraithocalypse), which has a defined weakness (to make it a fair fight rather than a massacre), and which the Wizard can easily pull off since Create Undead is a spell for it, not an incantation. The Wizard STILL has the spell advantage, which is the yet undefined factor that has to be beaten in order to give Earth the definitive advantage, and that's really what the nature of this exercise is about. Otherwise, Wizard wins by default because the rules are skewed towards the spellcaster (particularly since Earth has no spellcasters of its own).

The compromise would be that Shadows and Wraiths CAN exist on Earth, but they have to have a weakness. Shadows could have a Light weakness, while Wraiths could have another weakness of their own. This gives Earth a chance to fight, AND it fits with the d20 Modern ideology, particularly that of a Shadow Chasers campaign where weaknesses exist to give humans a chance, but humanity is STILL outmatched.

Something that hasn't been mentioned is whether the Wizard's demonstration of magic would be accepted as such, or treated as a delusion. d20 Modern rules state that the "masquerade" of the Shadow exists because human brains are notoriously hard to crack, so a Wizard at first would be treated as a cosplayer with awesome special effects, BEFORE it became a threat. Being as intelligent as presumed to be, the Wizard may prefer a more subtle approach rather than just nuke everything into oblivion, setting up a Tippyverse of some sort to negate the home advantage of advanced weaponry, rather than rely upon a mass of desperate people herded into combat by the authorities.

That also goes by saying that the Wizard can't really beat the Internet. The way it's developed, the Internet is notoriously hard to destroy (though not to disable), and the worst weapon against the Wizard would be Twitter (describe what the Wizard does in 140 words or less, and make people think that it's an AR thing for a new flick). The Wizard would definitely have the advantage if it managed to learn how to use technology to its advantage, though.

And the Wizard could be hailed a hero by doing some things. Razing TMZ, for once.

[Slipperychicken]

If we went with reality TV he'd either be a drooling vegitable or running in terror from this insane reality.


I picture this Wizard flying out of a typical american home, his face locked in horror, gibbering something about "nuke the entire plane from orbit, it's the only way to be sure".

[Kamin_Majere]

I picture this Wizard flying out of a typical american home, his face locked in horror, gibbering something about "nuke the entire plane from orbit, it's the only way to be sure".
Yeah I'm pretty sure Flavor of Love or Jersey Shore is the reason the wizard is here to kill us all to begin with

[Graypairofsocks]

A completely unoriginal way to mess up earth is:
1: Cast Wish to know of the nearest location of an artifact(Most other spells won't work as you probably haven't seen the artifact before) while in earth.
2: Retrieve it(cast superior invisibility on your self first though).
3: Cast Apocalypse from the sky.*
4: Repeat step 3.

*Apocalypse from the sky doesn't actually use the artifact as a material component it uses it as a focus, so the artifact won't actually get destroyed, the faq for the Bovd updated it.


Thing is, to have Shadows or Wraiths, you'd have to implant them into the d20 System, because there are no native rules for them in said system. This is important to clear out because it forms a precedent.
There aren't native rules for 6-9th level spells or the wizard class in the d20modern system, but we are still using them.



If the Wizard can create monsters that aren't part of the d20 Modern system, then that means the Wizard HAS to have acccess to the whole of D&D's Monster Manual, which means Solars, Pit Fiends, Balors, and all other monsters including and not limited to the Tarrasque. There are several monsters there that Earth wouldn't be able to fight, meaning Earth simply doesn't have a chance to beat them. However, this would be unfair advantage to the Wizard because you're allowing more than a fair share of books that are at times incompatible.

Unless we remove numerous spells from the wizard spell list the Wizard will have access to many creatures.
OP didn't say that the wizard couldn't summon/planar bind/create/animate creatures.

Just a nitpick but the wizard doesn't exactly have (easy?) use of the Tarrasque as it can't be called or summoned, and he would have to find it to dominate it.

There are a lot of monsters that earth can't (easily) defeat.

Also the very fact that the Wizard gets spellcasting is an unfair advantage against earth.
I personally would say that the d20modern and d&d 3.5 system are very compatible.




If, on the other hand, the Wizard on Earth is limited to the monsters in the d20 Modern Core Rulebook, Urban Arcana and Menace Manual, then things are VERY different instead. The rules in d20 Modern involve having supernatural monsters with at least one weakness, because it makes them easier to fight.
As far as I know(and judging from the d20 modern SRD) the rules about adding weaknesses is optional.



This is an advantage to Earth, since while it doesn't give them the tools to fight them (Earth only knows that most cryptids suddenly exist), it gives them a weakness to play with. Hence, why I mentioned the Ash Wraith, which can create other Ash Wraiths, which can be created on Earth (and hence, fit for a Wraithocalypse), which has a defined weakness (to make it a fair fight rather than a massacre), and which the Wizard can easily pull off since Create Undead is a spell for it, not an incantation. The Wizard STILL has the spell advantage, which is the yet undefined factor that has to be beaten in order to give Earth the definitive advantage, and that's really what the nature of this exercise is about. Otherwise, Wizard wins by default because the rules are skewed towards the spellcaster (particularly since Earth has no spellcasters of its own).



A nitpick: Create (Greater) Undead can't create Ash Wraiths, the Incantation can(and a twentieth level wizard can easily succeed at it) unless you consider the creatable undead in the incantation to also apply to the spell which is debatable(My sentence was phrased horribly).

Another Nitpick, but the Ash wraith doesn't really have any weaknesses(other than default undead ones) unless you count its wussing out in sunlight as one.

Note that the wizard doesn't have to use creatures at all to screw up earth.



The compromise would be that Shadows and Wraiths CAN exist on Earth, but they have to have a weakness. Shadows could have a Light weakness, while Wraiths could have another weakness of their own. This gives Earth a chance to fight, AND it fits with the d20 Modern ideology, particularly that of a Shadow Chasers campaign where weaknesses exist to give humans a chance, but humanity is STILL outmatched.
OP didn't state that monsters would get weaknesses, and that rule about weaknesses(AFAIK) is optional.

However that would work great for a campaign where you have to prevent earth from getting destroyed by an irate wizard.



Something that hasn't been mentioned is whether the Wizard's demonstration of magic would be accepted as such, or treated as a delusion. d20 Modern rules state that the "masquerade" of the Shadow exists because human brains are notoriously hard to crack, so a Wizard at first would be treated as a cosplayer with awesome special effects, BEFORE it became a threat. Being as intelligent as presumed to be, the Wizard may prefer a more subtle approach rather than just nuke everything into oblivion, setting up a Tippyverse of some sort to negate the home advantage of advanced weaponry, rather than rely upon a mass of desperate people herded into combat by the authorities.

This doesn't really apply as OP stated in this case Earth is aware of the wizard 12 months in advance.


That also goes by saying that the Wizard can't really beat the Internet. The way it's developed, the Internet is notoriously hard to destroy (though not to disable), and the worst weapon against the Wizard would be Twitter (describe what the Wizard does in 140 words or less, and make people think that it's an AR thing for a new flick).

Yeah the internet is very hard to beat as it is not very centralized(this reminds me of a book about organizations called "The Spider and the Starfish").

Um, one question how would making people think that what the wizard does is a ARG stunt help?


The Wizard would definitely have the advantage if it managed to learn how to use technology to its advantage, though.

The wizard could possibly(not sure) research the spells from the mage spell list which interact with electronics.

[Slipperychicken]

Maybe the wizard already dominated/mindraped every world leader, and is just having some fun before he commands them to nuke everyone.

[Xar Zarath]

Yeah I'm pretty sure Flavor of Love or Jersey Shore is the reason the wizard is here to kill us all to begin with

I was racking my brain trying to think up a plausible reason for the wiz to kill us all but this seems to be the best reason. But with the Kardashian clan included of course:smalltongue:

[Xar Zarath]

Also, the Wizard is unable to bring the monsters from most of the dnd realms to Earth. He cannot summon or gate them in, they cant breach some cosmic barrier or somesuch but the wizard can bring in other monsters native to d20 Modern etc

[ryu]

Also, the Wizard is unable to bring the monsters from most of the dnd realms to Earth. He cannot summon or gate them in, they cant breach some cosmic barrier or somesuch but the wizard can bring in other monsters native to d20 Modern etc

What about physically making them? Not all minionmancy is summoning you know.

[Graypairofsocks]

A nitpick: Create (Greater) Undead can't create Ash Wraiths, the Incantation can(and a twentieth level wizard can easily succeed at it) unless you consider the creatable undead in the incantation to also apply to the spell which is debatable(My sentence was phrased horribly).

On a second thought ruling that Create (Greater) Undead (the spell) would be able to Create the undead from Create Undead (the incantation) wouldn't be a bad ruling, although Ash Wraiths would probably go in Create Greater undead as that is where normal wraiths are.


Also, the Wizard is unable to bring the monsters from most of the dnd realms to Earth. He cannot summon or gate them in, they cant breach some cosmic barrier or somesuch but the wizard can bring in other monsters native to d20 Modern etc

A few question about your rulings for this discussion:

Could you answer whether the astral plane is connected to earth as planar travel and any sort of teleportation do not work with out it.

And would you consider the alternate dimension the dimensional horror (http://www.wizards.com/d20modern/images/mm_gallery/51659_CN.jpg)(Found in the Menace Manual and in the MSRD (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/msrd)) hides in to be the ethereal plane(the description of the dimension is extremely similar to that of the ethereal plane)?

Would the wizard be able to research the Mage spells that effect electronics?

[Inevitability]

I don't understand while people keep talking about the Wightapocalypse.

Holy water (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_water) is a thing in the real world too, you know. And once someone passes his knowledge (religion) check, we have millions of priests ready to create some. Then we strap it to a missile and bomb the giant wight army.

[Slipperychicken]

Holy water (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_water) is a thing in the real world too, you know. And once someone passes his knowledge (religion) check, we have millions of priests ready to create some. Then we strap it to a missile and bomb the giant wight army.

Thankfully, we don't need to carry out that debate here.



So this thread is in the same vein only this time with some prereqs:

A singular Wizard 20 vs Modern Earth using d20 rules only without magic of their own
-For argument's sake lets say magic exists in our world, however we cant do magic( no knowledge of it)
-Both sides knew about each other, difference Modern Earth knew 12 months in advance, Wizard knew 6 months
-Wizard will get no help from Moderns unless he uses magic on them
-Modern Earth objective is to kill wizard, but wont automatically just nuke
-wizard has to kill world leaders and millions of people? (honestly I cant figure out a plausible objective for the wizard)

So I guess that's about it...let the battle royale begin!

D&D holy water is created by casting a Bless Water spell, which the OP has specified is impossible for the inhabitants of "our world".

[T.G. Oskar]

Thankfully, we don't need to carry out that debate here.

D&D holy water is created by casting a Bless Water spell, which the OP has specified is impossible for the inhabitants of "our world".

Again: read the Critical Locations sourcebook. There's a way to make Holy Water without casting magic, and that has the same effect as that of a Bless Water spell. There's a reason why I mentioned the book: the ritual could easily be part of the real-world rituals that exist in the world (and remember: magic exists, but Earthlings can't use it; an incantation applies, but not a ritual like this). It's even mentioned that the holy water in most parishes, in d20 Modern terms, is diluted from the original batch, so you could reliably create flasks of holy water. However, it will be a slow and costly process.

[Graypairofsocks]

Again: read the Critical Locations sourcebook. There's a way to make Holy Water without casting magic, and that has the same effect as that of a Bless Water spell. There's a reason why I mentioned the book: the ritual could easily be part of the real-world rituals that exist in the world (and remember: magic exists, but Earthlings can't use it; an incantation applies, but not a ritual like this). It's even mentioned that the holy water in most parishes, in d20 Modern terms, is diluted from the original batch, so you could reliably create flasks of holy water. However, it will be a slow and costly process.

Wait, I am confused, is the thing to create Holy water a incantation(and are earthlings allowed to use incantations)?

[Rubik]

I don't understand while people keep talking about the Wightapocalypse.

Holy water (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_water) is a thing in the real world too, you know.Uh... No. It's not. It's regular water, with no supernatural abilities. Throw it at a zombie, and you get a wet zombie. That's it. Magic is required for it, even with magical locations and not spells giving it to you. Earth doesn't have those.

[rg9000]

Are we assuming the wizard's world has the same physical laws as ours? As well, what race is the wizard....

[Slipperychicken]

Again: read the Critical Locations sourcebook. There's a way to make Holy Water without casting magic, and that has the same effect as that of a Bless Water spell. There's a reason why I mentioned the book: the ritual could easily be part of the real-world rituals that exist in the world (and remember: magic exists, but Earthlings can't use it; an incantation applies, but not a ritual like this). It's even mentioned that the holy water in most parishes, in d20 Modern terms, is diluted from the original batch, so you could reliably create flasks of holy water. However, it will be a slow and costly process.

My bad. I assumed that holy water required magic like it does in 3.5.

[ericgrau]

So the world doesn't know how to use magic. You use something affected only by magic. Job done.

But I wonder if d20 modern has its own rules for interacting with ghosts. Then it gets mucky, b/c which rules do you use? Or does it have any of its own things that can be affected only by things that exist only in d20 modern rules? Then you might have a situation where ya, the wizard wins because he has nothing to lose but himself and the world has the world to lose. But if a powerful d20 modern guy then went to a fantasy world he does the same to it.

Or d20 modern has no such thing and the wizard just plain wins. I'm afraid I've only played a couple games and don't know the d20 modern rules in detail so I can't say.

EDIT: And it seems that we're already dealing with two conflicting sets of rules for holy water. So, ya, mucky.

[Graypairofsocks]

But I wonder if d20 modern has its own rules for interacting with ghosts. Then it gets mucky, b/c which rules do you use?

d20modern has the same rules regarding incorporeality, but it doesn't have any ghosts.


Or does it have any of its own things that can be affected only by things that exist only in d20 modern rules? Then you might have a situation where ya, the wizard wins because he has nothing to lose but himself and the world has the world to lose.
As far as I know(in the MSRD at least) there are no creatures only effect by things unique to d20 modern(the are creatures unique to d20 modern though).


But if a powerful d20 modern guy then went to a fantasy world he does the same to it.
In the current rule set of no magic for earthlings no, in normal also no because the d20modern spell casting classes only grant up to 5th level spells.



Or d20 modern has no such thing and the wizard just plain wins. I'm afraid I've only played a couple games and don't know the d20 modern rules in detail so I can't say.
Here is the d20 modern srd download: link. (www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/msrd)

It contains most of the core rules for d20modern, it can help(better than me).



EDIT: And it seems that we're already dealing with two conflicting sets of rules for holy water. So, ya, mucky.
I don't think we are dealing with 2 different rule sets(afaik), there is just a way to get holy water that is detailed in a d20modern book(afaik).

[T.G. Oskar]

For assistance: I often use this site (http://www.d20resources.com/) when I deal with d20 Modern content, since it has everything that the Modern SRD offers but in a convenient format. I'd love for it to be a bit more interconnected, because sometimes rules clarifications can be daunting and sometimes you make the mistake of using the D&D rules when the Modern rules have an equivalent. There are other "Hypertext Modern SRD" sites, but this one is the most complete, thus far.

The books that are considered Open Gaming License-compliant are the Core Rulebook, Urban Arcana, d20 Future and Menace Manual. That has most creatures; the remaining books (d20 Past, d20 Apocalypse, d20 Cyberrave, Weapons' Locker and Critical Locations) contains less content, but some rules that are at times distinct (for example, and just to paraphrase: d20 Past contains some of D&D's overland movement rules, plus how to adjudicate Leadership).

The Web Enhancements for the Core Rulebook and Urban Arcana also contain quite a bit of content, and about 1/3rd of the Core Rulebook WE and 2/5ths of the Urban Arcana WE are supernatural in one way or another (the former has a few spells that appeared later on Urban Arcana; the latter has the Shapeshifter and the Spellslinger).

[Xar Zarath]

On a second thought ruling that Create (Greater) Undead (the spell) would be able to Create the undead from Create Undead (the incantation) wouldn't be a bad ruling, although Ash Wraiths would probably go in Create Greater undead as that is where normal wraiths are.

The wizard is able to make corporeal undead but does not do incorporeal for personal reasons (he had a bad experience levelling up, it was that one time that really made him against them etc)

[/QUOTE]
A few question about your rulings for this discussion:

Could you answer whether the astral plane is connected to earth as planar travel and any sort of teleportation do not work with out it.

And would you consider the alternate dimension the dimensional horror (http://www.wizards.com/d20modern/images/mm_gallery/51659_CN.jpg)(Found in the Menace Manual and in the MSRD (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/msrd)) hides in to be the ethereal plane(the description of the dimension is extremely similar to that of the ethereal plane)?

Would the wizard be able to research the Mage spells that effect electronics?[/QUOTE]

Yes there is an astral and ethereal but the Moderns don't know about the astral, and the Wizard aint talking. Shadow and ethereal is known but both moderns and the wizard are just normal about it.

As to electronics and spells, the wizard would be interested but has to have free time to work on them. Interested but very little free time.

[Xar Zarath]

Are we assuming the wizard's world has the same physical laws as ours? As well, what race is the wizard....

Human, vanilla generalist wizard 20, mildly optimized

(Oh and also, holy water needs to be blessed by a priest as per usual, though if the Moderns get a divine magic wielding being from ethereal or shadow to help them then yes that would work. Otherwise the priest down the block cant help you)