Racial Cross-Breeds

[Jaguira]

First of all, I hope this is in the right forum. I'm afraid I'm still quite new here and not quite used to the fine details yet. ANYWAYS!

Elves and Humans can cross-breed to produce viable, fertile offspring, as can Orcs and Humans. Biologically speaking, this means that they are technically not able to be classafied as separate speices (or races), but that's not my point.
What I'm wondering is, since many of the basic rules of biology don't apply to many d20 worlds, why do you never see Elf/Orc crosses? Or all sorts of other strange crosses, such as Human/Dwarf, Orc/Halfling, ect?
What do you think the stats on the varies crosses would be?
Do you think they happen but aren't just mentioned much/at all?
Do you think these crosses are where Mongrelfolk come from?

...Am I really just putting too much thought into this?

[J_Muller]

No, the answer is simple. Elf chicks are just easy.

[Maxymiuk]

It's because:

a) Tolkien had Aragorn fall for Arwen. They had a kid. Ergo, half-elves are possible. Tolkien's orcs are corrupted elves. Ergo, half-orcs are possible.

or

b) Humans are horny as hell and will mate with anything that moves. However every other race, aside from elves and orcs, has high enough standards to say "no."

or

c) Elves and orcs refuse to use condoms during sex.

[J_Muller]

Well, I think it's implied that a lot of half-orcs are the product of rape.

[heretic]

That still doesn't explain the lack of half-dwarves and half-orc/half-elves...

What would the stats be...

[J_Muller]

You mean sort of like this? (http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=070203)

[Jaguira]

You mean sort of like this? (http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=070203)
Exactly like that :smallbiggrin:

[brian c]

Since Tolkien was mentioned, in the LOTR universe orcs and elves hated each other, so there was pretty much no chance of that mix ever happening. I know d&d is not the same as LOTR, but I think a similar dynamic applies to orcs and elves in that they inherently don't like each other, therefore they don't breed. I've never heard of a half-dwarf of any kind though; maybe dwarves can't cross-breed with other races, or maybe no one wants to bump uglies with a bearded dwarf chick

[Rama_Lei]

Well elves and orcs hate each other, to the point of physical convultions. They'd rather kill themselves than be involved romantically with each other.

[Fax Celestis]

"Romeorc, Romeorc, wherefore art thou, Romeorc?"

"I am here, fair Julielf!"


...the forbidden love.

[heretic]

No matter how gross or societally unacceptable something is, it will eventually happen, and when it does, some gamer will want to make a character of the result.

I think I'd call the elf/orc a mongrelfolk from FF and RoD. A half-dwarf wouldn't be hard to make either. I think it might have been done already in some Faerun supplement. At least, I remember seeing a picture of one while paging through one of those books.

[Jaguira]

No matter how gross or societally unacceptable something is, it will eventually happen, and when it does, some gamer will want to make a character of the result.

I think I'd call the elf/orc a mongrelfolk from FF and RoD. A half-dwarf wouldn't be hard to make either. I think it might have been done already in some Faerun supplement. At least, I remember seeing a picture of one while paging through one of those books.
Mongrelfolk! THAT'S what they are! Thank you! :smallbiggrin:

[lordmarcoos]

Half-dwarves are called Muls, in the dark sun campaign setting that never made it to 3.5, but they've been redone on athas.org. http://www.athas.org/releases/ds3/ds3_r6.pdf
it's somewhere in the doc... check the table of contents

Edit: page 16

[Thomas]

"Romeorc, Romeorc, wherefore art thou, Romeorc?"

"I am here, fair Julielf!"

"... art thou Romeorc?"

The question is "why are you Romeo?" ("Wherefore" means "why.") That's why it's followed by "Deny thy father and thy name" and so on.

Everyone seems to get the nature of the question wrong; it's not "where are you?"

*grumble*


I did find "Romeorc" and "Julielf" hilarious, though.

[Fax Celestis]

"... art thou Romeorc?"

The question is "why are you Romeo?" ("Wherefore" means "why.") That's why it's followed by "Deny thy father and thy name" and so on.

Everyone seems to get the nature of the question wrong; it's not "where are you?"

*grumble*


I did find "Romeorc" and "Julielf" hilarious, though.

That was intention. Poor Romeorc (probably due to that -2 Int!) doesn't know his Shakespearean grammar.

Also, Romeorc and Julielf are going to have to be NPCs in my next campaign.

[J_Muller]

Well, you'll of course have to include Mercutigoblin.

[Fax Celestis]

As well as Ravidcrans and Guildenwyrm!

[Thomas]

Gnomlet?

Alas, poor Koboldrick... I gained a racial bonus to attacks against him.

[Khantalas]

a) Tolkien had Aragorn fall for Arwen. They had a kid. Ergo, half-elves are possible. Tolkien's orcs are corrupted elves. Ergo, half-orcs are possible.

Of course, fact is, Arwen is a half-elf. So is Elrond. Elrond's surname (or whatever) is Half-Elven.

Yes, it is. I'm certain of it. Even if it isn't, it's just Tolkien's fault.

EDIT: Oh yeah, obligatory Shakespeare - D&D cross names...

Opheliogre, Rosencrankheg, Cladigester.

[JaronK]

Elves and Humans can cross-breed to produce viable, fertile offspring, as can Orcs and Humans. Biologically speaking, this means that they are technically not able to be classafied as separate speices (or races), but that's not my point.

Not quite true. For example, Great Danes and Chihuahuas are the same species (Dogs) but they can't interbreed. It's called a ring species... there are dogs that can breed with a Chihuahua that can breed with other dogs that can breed with Great Danes. They're all one species, but some can't interbreed with others.

There are other such examples (mules are sterile, but I believe hinnies sometimes aren't).

Plus, D&D is a created world... evolution may not function quite as it does in the real world. You can have gods simply decide that they'd like certain races to interbreed, and thus it happens.

JaronK

[Subotei]

Would a Half-Halfling be a Quarterling?

[Thomas]

Would a Half-Halfling be a Quarterling?

Wouldn't it be a three-quartersling? 0.5 + 1 / 2 = 0.75

[hewhosaysfish]

There's a d20-based fantasy game called Midnight (it has enough different stuff to not just be a campaign setting) with some odd half-breeds in it:

Dworgs - half orc, half dwarf
Dwarrow - half gnome half dwarf
Elflings - duh, half elf, half halfling

It also had three sub-races of human.

[Maxymiuk]

Elflings - duh, half elf, half halfling


I think you've just explained a fair portion of anime. Androgynous, too-pretty-to-be-true, apparently underage characters.

[Jayabalard]

Wouldn't it be a three-quartersling? 0.5 + 1 / 2 = 0.75

No, it's 0.5 * 1/2 = 0.25

[ufo]

Seriously, though, I have been wondering for some time, what if a half-elf and half-orc breed? Does the boilogical laws of D&D deny that this will produce any offspring, or will it eventually be possible to have a 50% human 25% elf 25% orc.

ANd yes, as mentioned, it is a serious question..

[KingRexII]

Can half-elves and half-orcs reproduce? Mules are sterile. Are these two cross-breeds?

More D&D Shakespeare names:

Ogreon, King of Large Fairies
Titania, Queen of Huge Fairies (heh, didn't have to change that one...)

[silvermesh]

Can half-elves and half-orcs reproduce? Mules are sterile.

Mules aren't always sterile, though when they're not, their offspring tends to die of massive cancer before it reaches maturity ;)

just like the big cat crossbreeds.

in my world, orcs, elves, humans are all the same species. you can make an orc/elf, but a half human 1/4 elf 1/4 orc is just a human.

[hewhosaysfish]

Mules aren't always sterile, though when they're not, their offspring tends to die of massive cancer before it reaches maturity ;)

just like the big cat crossbreeds.

in my world, orcs, elves, humans are all the same species. you can make an orc/elf, but a half human 1/4 elf 1/4 orc is just a human.

It would be fun to try and write/play in a campaign setting where "humans"
weren't a species in their own right but just some odd mongrels. 1/4 orc, 3/8 dwarf, 3/8 elf or something messed up like that. Half-elves and half-orcs are humans who tends more towards on side of their ancestry. And halflings are a elf/goblin cross, gnomes are a dwarf-goblin, a kobold is a halfling/lizardfolk.... trolls are ogre/orc. Ogres are giant/dwarf (don't ask me how that one works)... Troglodytes are dwarf/lizardfolk
It would be great.

[barawn]

No, it's 0.5 * 1/2 = 0.25

Except it's 0.5*1+0.5*0.5=0.75, since humans are "full-lings". A half-halfling would be three quarters the size of a human.

[ampcptlogic]

It might also have something to do with size categories. A halfling-gnome crossbreed might work, or many even halfing-dwarf or gnome-dwarf (a gnarf?), but mixing sizes categories might be rough.

"Also, poor Koboldrick. I knew him, Horakshasa."

[dj2145]

I don't think Ive ever seen a 1/2 Orc as anything but the product of a "rape and pillage" by Orc hordes. I can't imagine a human killing off all the Orc males only to say: "Gosh, Larry, look at that fine Orc princess over there. I'm gonna court her!"

Therefore, maybe cause Orcs and Elves hate each other so much they kill on sight but with humans its like, meh, rape em and let em go only so my bastard offspring can come back and kill me in the future...assuming I live that long.

Oh the plot hooks!

[Wizzardman]

I don't think Ive ever seen a 1/2 Orc as anything but the product of a "rape and pillage" by Orc hordes. I can't imagine a human killing off all the Orc males only to say: "Gosh, Larry, look at that fine Orc princess over there. I'm gonna court her!"

Therefore, maybe cause Orcs and Elves hate each other so much they kill on sight but with humans its like, meh, rape em and let em go only so my bastard offspring can come back and kill me in the future...assuming I live that long.

Oh the plot hooks!

I dunno. I'd like to give Orcs a chance--not all of them have to be evil, pillaging monsters that run around raping everything in sight. Its not like Orcs are Always Chaotic Evil. Or that Chaotic Evil always equals Sexual Predator.

That... and I think even Orcs would have the sense to notice a pattern between "number of women I rape" and "number of times I get stabbed by a half-orc with a familiar face," and probably realize that this isn't a good pattern to keep repeating.

...Hee hee. Owlthello. Coautliban. Capbulette.

[brian c]

No, it's 0.5 * 1/2 = 0.25

No, what he's saying is that half-halfling is 1/4thing and the other half human is 1/2ling, so 1/4ling + 1/2ling = 3/4ling (although that kind of logic presumes that halflings are half people, half nothing at all and that's biologically just weird)

[Larrin]

I've always felt that humans and halfings are pretty darn close to the same species, i figure that cross breeding just gives one or the other, ie its just one gene or so that determines your halflingness, you either have it or don't. much like how in real life a "little-person" and average sized person's child will either be average or "little" not a combination.

[ampcptlogic]

Tyboleth? Githvolio? Benvolich? I(mp)ago? MacBarghest?

[Fax Celestis]

Monstrous Shakespeare Theater 3000! Now with more nerdity (and better heckling)!

[Parlik]

I seem to recall Dark Sun having half-dwarves, Mul I thnk they were called, was a sterile race bred for arena combat.

[Thomas]

Muls were brought up already. Human height and agility combined with dwarven strength and endurance, resulting in... more strength and endurance than dwarves have. (Sort of a liger/tigon thing?) Hairless, sterile, and very valuable as slaves (and therefore purposefully bred by slave-owners; the birth is usually fatal to the mother, whether she's a human or a dwarf, although dwarves obviously are stronger and better able to survive). They're not bred for arena combat, but obviously make some of the best gladiators.

[Sam K]

While cultural differences would explain alot, it doesn't completely cover the lack of other hybrids. Dwarves may have strict taboos about crossbreeding, orcs and elves may hate eachother, and halflings may just not get turned on by tall people. But as long as there are wizards, there'll be someone trying to cross various races just to see what color they turn when you choke them. No, the answer to all this comes in what I've come to call 'divine genetics'. The D&D world is not one of evolution. Humans didn't evolve from apes, orcs dont originate from cabbages, and elven ancestors were not trees (though some of the... errr... more.. back to nature types refuse to realise that). They were created by divine action. This leaves a mark.

Orcs have a god. He made them in his image.
Elves have a god (or several gods), who created elves to be like him/them.
Dwarves have gods, gnomes have gods, halflings have gods, all who created them to resemble their maker.

Humans, in most settings, do not have a god. They are either the creation of several gods working together, or they are made by the creator (the high god who is no longer active in any way). While other races gain some traits from their divine origins (resembling their god, or the way their god intended them), humans have the trait (for lack of a better word) of 'infinite possibility'. The humans lack of a distinctive trait is their distinctive trait. In game, this is reflected by the humans free favored class, and the extra feat and skills they receive. Cross breeding is another case where it comes up.

Every other humanoid race was created to be that race. Elves were created to be elves. Their maker had a clear idea of what the race should be like. Dwarves were created to be dwarves. Their maker had a slightly blurry vision of his creations (where do you think they got their thirst for ale?). Every race was created with the intention of being that race, and thus they cant crossbreed. It's not part of their divine plan. Elves and dwarves weren't created to be dwelves. Gnomes and halflings are not ment to become gnomelings. This may well be a security measure by the creating god: after all, it's really hard to be the god of gnomes if the gnomes die out because someone realise the gnelf gets better racials, so you better make sure your race cant just dilute it's blood to the point where it no longer cares about you. Humans, on the other hand, didn't receive a plan. Humans were created to just be. As a part of their infinite possibilities, they are able to breed with most other races. There's nothing with the human genetics that says "stop, this isn't what Im suppose to be". No god implanted a plan for the human development. And thus, humans can breed with elves and orcs, while elves and orcs cant breed with eachother.

[Matthew]

As I recall, in (A)D&D Half Orcs and Orcs were the result of Orcs interbreeding with any races, not just Humans. Most were Orcs.

[Sisqui]

Of course, fact is, Arwen is a half-elf. So is Elrond. Elrond's surname (or whatever) is Half-Elven.
Unless her mother is also a half elf, wouldn't Arwen be either 3/4 elf or 3/4 human?

[Khantalas]

No, you know how 2 x 2 = 3 in D&D? Well, half probably means "a fraction of" in D&D?

[Matthew]

Unless her mother is also a half elf, wouldn't Arwen be either 3/4 elf or 3/4 human?

It's considerably more complicated than even that.

Elwe (Elf) and Melian (Maia) begat Luthien (Elf / Maia). She married Beren (Man) and bore Dior, who wed Nimloth (Elf, I think). They produced Elwing who married Earendil [born of Tuor (Man) and Idril (Elf, I think), which union led to Elrond. Elrond married Celebrian [daughter of Celeborn (Elf) and Galadriel (Elf)] and produced Arwen.

So, Arwen is descended from Elves on one side and a mixture of Elves, Men and an Outsider on the other, in D&D terms.

[Sam K]

Elronds title of half-elf is a reference to his origins, not his genetics.

The half elves were given the choice of which race they would belong to. One family chose elves- elrond is part of this family, so while his ancestry is partly human, he and his family are biologically and mystically speaking, elves. They live forever (or close to it) and are allowed to make the voyage to the immortal lands when they grow weary of midgaard. The other family chose to embrace their human ancestry, and while they were gifted with longer lives than the lesser men, they were still mortal and bound by the rules for humans. Their spirits would have to leave the world, and they were forever banned from the immortal lands.

So, while there are half elves in tolkiens world, they are very different from the ones in D&D, and not much good for comparison. In most cases, half-elf refers to ancient ancestry, not to your direct parentage. To my knowledge, Arwens and Aragorns child was the first child with one human and one elven parent born since ancient times.

[kamikasei]

It's considerably more complicated than even that.

Elwe (Elf) and Melian (Maia) begat Luthien (Elf / Maia). She married Beren (Man) and bore Dior, who wed Nimloth (Elf, I think). They produced Elwing who married Earendil [born of Tuor (Man) and Idril (Elf, I think), which union led to Elrond. Elrond married Celebrian [daughter of Celeborn (Elf) and Galadriel (Elf)] and produced Arwen.

So, Arwen is descended from Elves on one side and a mixture of Elves, Men and an Outsider on the other, in D&D terms.

That's 3/16th Man, 25/32nd Elf, and 1/32nd Maia. Which is just slightly more than 3/4 Elven... (0.78125 to be precise).

I don't think the people of Beleriand knew much about genetics. Elrond and his brother Elros were called the Half-Elven more or less because both of their parents had had elves and humans in their ancestry... I don't think it was supposed to be a precise measure. More so when you consider that they were the only two people left on Middle-Earth of whom that could be said.

[edit:] Sam K: note that Aragorn is descended from Elrond's brother through many, many more stages, so Arwen was very slightly human, Aragorn was very much more slightly elven, and both were a teensy bit angelic.

[Grey Watcher]

First of all, I hope this is in the right forum. I'm afraid I'm still quite new here and not quite used to the fine details yet. ANYWAYS!

Elves and Humans can cross-breed to produce viable, fertile offspring, as can Orcs and Humans. Biologically speaking, this means that they are technically not able to be classafied as separate speices (or races), but that's not my point.
What I'm wondering is, since many of the basic rules of biology don't apply to many d20 worlds, why do you never see Elf/Orc crosses? Or all sorts of other strange crosses, such as Human/Dwarf, Orc/Halfling, ect?
What do you think the stats on the varies crosses would be?
Do you think they happen but aren't just mentioned much/at all?
Do you think these crosses are where Mongrelfolk come from?

...Am I really just putting too much thought into this?

Well, in my few, lackluster attempts at designing a homebrow setting I made sure to point out the half-orcs and half-elves were infertile, just because it bothered me that, otherwise, they'd be considered a single species.

Oh, and, as usual, we can blame Lord of the Rings. Elrond Half-Elven and the Uruk-hai or the literary progenitors of the Half-Elf and the Half-Orc (though only the Half-Orcs remain thematically true to those origins.

[Matthew]

Hmmn. Uruk-Hai are not actually Half Orcs (although this is a matter of considerable debate). The characters in the books do distinguish between Uruk Hai (Orc Folk) and Half Orcs.

I think Dragonlance is a good deal more responsible for the Half Elf, mind. However, Heroes with mixed heritage are the norm, rather than the exception.

Half Orcs and Lord of the Rings (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18403&page=2)

[Quietus]

I think Sam K's got this nail hit on the head - although, I could probably look through the Book of Erotic Fantasy, as I know they had rules in there for crossbreeding and what the results would be. Perhaps I'll take a peek in that direction later.

[Hzurr]

But as long as there are wizards, there'll be someone trying to cross various races just to see what color they turn when you choke them.

*cough*Owlbears*cough*

[J_Muller]

I think Sam K's got this nail hit on the head - although, I could probably look through the Book of Erotic Fantasy, as I know they had rules in there for crossbreeding and what the results would be. Perhaps I'll take a peek in that direction later.

...I know I shouldn't be surprised that such a book exists, but... I am somehow.

[Quietus]

I know, I know. It's sad - and a lot of the material is... =/

However, some of it can actually be useful, like the half-breed rules - If, say, you end up with something of three-quarter blood, it should be treated as a full-statted member of that race. For example, say a half-elf mates with an elf, the child would be statted as a full blooded elf. If that same half-elf mates with a human, the child is a human. They might have minor physical differences, but that's just fluff.

They have a chart (http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/654/crossbreedingss0.jpg) that outlines what can and cannot crossbreed - there are rules involved, they cover several pages, but this is a good guideline to start with. The entire book is done under the OGL, so it's safe for me to post this here. For argument's sake, I don't think it was WOTC that released it, they only worked it out to be compatible with the d20 system.

[Jothki]

b) Humans are horny as hell and will mate with anything that moves. However every other race, aside from elves and orcs, has high enough standards to say "no."

And dragons. Can't forget the dragons.

[Kantolin]

See, it's simple.

Dwarves wear full plate.
Halflings have enough AC and dexterity to get the heck out of dodge.
Gnomes use illusions to distract the humans.

Leaving elves and orcs as the two races who can't get away. One minute you're walking along minding your own business and blam, in comes a human or several. Dragons usually don't get the time to start their whole flying schtick.

It's mildly amusing that when I say 'Half-Horse', everyone I was speaking to automatically assumed that the other half was human. I was aiming for a mule, but hey... that says something about humans. :P

[h2doh]

Wouldn't it be a three-quartersling? 0.5 + 1 / 2 = 0.75

0.5 + 0.5 = 1, hey, He just made a ling....does that mean that quarter-lings...er...lings..?...are the prodiginators of the half-ling race....Hey look, I just went cross-eyed.

[Valairn]

I guess if we are theming up cross-breeds here, we could stat them up to. Maybe even come up with unique ways of looking at the results.

Take Dwarves and Elves for a second, yes I chose them cause a DWELF is a funny name.

But instead of viewing it as simply combining stats, you have to view it as combining the essence of what that race is. Elves are in touch with nature, the earth itself. Dwarves are as well, just differently, they feel the earth in its stone cold center, while elves feel it in its living breathing exterior.

If you took that and expanded upon it, you could say the race that they would breed would be magical in a way that understands the earth as a whole. Rocky center to open sky. The race could be some of the most powerful druids ever born.

Two cents.