Armor, Shields and Armor Values

[ArcaneGlyph]

My party is now getting on the other side of level 10 and the enemies are starting to get decent BABs. As the min\maxer in my group and also the guy who helps the other players build characters, I am running out of ideas on how to keep our melee players (2 fighters) from getting gibbed.

The dwarf tank has dwarven battle plate, with a floating tower shield. He's got a respectable AC (somewhere around 30ish), but still is getting crushed by monsters on their full attack rounds.

I'm not really sure where to go from here, most of the damage is straight physical damage.

Wealth is not really high, so extra magic doodads aren't really too do-able.

[Azoth]

If he can't buy better things or miss chances, a 1 lvl dip is Swordsage can nab him a teleport maneuver from Shadow Hand, and the Child of Shadow stance gives a 20% miss chance if you move during the round. So if he 5ft steps each round he will have a 20% chance to avoid each hit.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Spells are helpful in keeping your AC up. If you don't have a spellcaster at hand it's going to get really expensive keeping ahead of monster AB. Miss chances are also an option and aren't too expensive.

Another option for lightly armored melee is getting tumble up high enough to reliably hit DC 40. That lets you take 10ft steps(OA) instead of 5ft steps and thus avoid full attacks. There's a few other methods to get 10ft steps, too.

Evasive Reflexes(ToB) along with some method to get AoO's (reach, Robilar's Gambit, Defensive Sweep, Hold the Line) lets you move out of the way of full attacks as well.
The same effect can be gotten from various swift action movement or teleportation items/abilities.

[ArcaneGlyph]

The party has an Elven Generalist Wizard, (Me) A Cloistered Dragonwrought Kobold Cleric of Kurtlemack who also functions as our rogue (no DMM persist cheese), and two Fighters: 1 tank (dwarven defender) and 1 dps (straight 2h fighter human).

The monsters we fight are all over the board so spell prep is very difficult to gauge.

I've been getting our wizard used to not memorizing evocation spells and more used to memorizing web / force wall / mass fly etc.

[DigoDragon]

Can you afford armor with DR? In my last campaign the melee types went NUTS to have DR armors. As they're getting hit, the armor soaks up some of the damage, allowing the melee types to stay in the action longer. A cheaper solution is to invest in items that give the Stoneskin effect to them (Or have the wizard cast it on them if he has such a spell).

[sleepyphoenixx]

A rod of lesser Chain Spell with the cleric casting Magic Vestment on the parties armor and shields is already a significant AC boost for relatively little investment.
The wizard casting Glitterdust can also make melee monsters significantly less dangerous.

[ArcaneGlyph]

Those are awesome ideas, thanks!

[Seerow]

Wealth is not really high, so extra magic doodads aren't really too do-able.


We found your problem.

[Ellowryn]

Short answer, your not going to be able to stop your fighters from getting it in the gibbly bits with AC. As previously mentioned monster AB scales fast, whereas your tank is pushing the tops of what a character can get from AC. There are probably 2 ways to go with this: Miss chance and CC.

Does your wizard know blur and displacement? If not, make getting him a scroll of each, or if he is about to level make him learn them, and then have him prepare them more than once. You should also look to get items that grant this passive, but if you are having issues with wealth this will be difficult, but at least try and aim in that direction.

CC is going to also help, dropping status effects like daze, prone, slow, blind, etc. are going to reduce your opponents ability to attack which will therefore translate into your tank being used as a bongo drum less. Either fighter grabbing improved trip and related bonuses and many spells your wizard could cast creates these effects, you just might have to build towards it or ask your DM if he will allow you guys to swap out some feats.

[ArcaneGlyph]

I had considered improved trip, but most things we fight are largely untrippable.

[Mountain]

Magic items are definitely your best bet for not getting hit, and there are some relatively cheap ones since you said that money is tight. Specifically, look for things with uses/day.

The MIC has fairly cheap armor properties that grant a blur or displacement effect.

[Fouredged Sword]

Smoking armor spikes are nice, as they are a cheap miss chance and backup weapon in one.

[Zirconia]

I've been getting our wizard used to not memorizing evocation spells and more used to memorizing web / force wall / mass fly etc.

Found your other problem; you need to do a fair amount of crowd control on monsters past CR 10 or so to keep them from doing a LOT of damage to people meleeing them. The DM had to invent a special Prestige class and mount for my Paladin in the last 3.0 game to let him not die in every third fight. Look at Ray of Dizziness from the Spellcasters Compendium, for example, to shut down things like dragons. In place of doing 30 points of Lightning Bolt damage on the dragon, prevent 400 points of damage from the dragon on your buddies over the next few rounds. . .

One option is for the melee folks to build really brutal charging builds, the idea being the Wizard separates/cripples the foes and the melee types take out 1/round fairly safely since they aren't usually spending a full round getting attacked.

Some cheap defensive item possibilities, though, include;
Torc of Displacement (Magic Item Compendium). 2000GP, throat slot. As an immediate action, spend charges to gain varying degrees of concealment for one round.

Anklet of Translocation (MIC). 1400GP, feet slot. Range 10', swift action activation. Works twice per day (buy a few!). Requires line of sight and line of effect.

Shadow Cloak: 3/day as a response to an attack as an immediate action you can teleport 10ft in any direction you can see or you can get concealment for 1 round. Drow of the Underdark, p. 101, 5,500 gp

VAMPIRE TORC
Price (Item Level): 5,000 gp (9th), Body Slot: Throat, Aura: Faint; (DC 17) necromancy, Activation: Swift (command). When you activate this torc, the next successful melee attack you make before the end of your turn also heals you of an amount of damage equal to half the damage your attack dealt. This ability functions equally well regardless of your creature type. If you don’t deal damage with a melee attack before the end of your turn, that activation of the torc is wasted. This ability functions two times per day.

Ablative hit points can also help;
Amulet of Tears; Body slot: Throat, Activation: swift (command), Magic Item Compendium, 2,300 GP
Adorning a dark silver chained pearl necklace, it adorns three large pearls that hang three smaller crystals and chains it sits elegantly on the neck, it reminds you of a sad cloudy day. An amulet of tears has 3 charges, which are renewed each day at dawn, spending 1 or more charges when you activate the amulet grants you temporary hit points, as described below. These hit points last for up to 10 minutes; they don’t stack with any other temporary hit points.
1 charge: 12 temp hit points, 2 charge: 18 temp hit points, 3 charge: 24 temp hit points

[Cruiser1]

The dwarf tank has dwarven battle plate, with a floating tower shield. He's got a respectable AC (somewhere around 30ish)
Get a Dastana and a Chahar-Aina (OA), which are non-magical +1 AC light armors that both stack with body armor and a shield. Enchant them to +5 and put other magic effects on them, and the extra 12 AC will help prevent you from being hit (or at least prevent tough monsters from using Power Attack on you). Miss-chance is certainly to be pursued as well, but Dastanas/Chahar-Aina are cheap and effective.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Get a Dastana and a Chahar-Aina (OA), which are non-magical +1 AC light armors that both stack with body armor and a shield. Enchant them to +5 and put other magic effects on them, and the extra 12 AC will help prevent you from being hit (or at least prevent tough monsters from using Power Attack on you). Miss-chance is certainly to be pursued as well, but Dastanas/Chahar-Aina are cheap and effective.

Dastana and Chahar-Aina can only be used with leather and chain shirt armor. You can also only have one enhancement bonus to armor AC, it doesn't stack since it's the same bonus type. You can however enchant them seperately with special armor abilities to save some money compared to stacking all those abilities on a single piece of armor.

[Chronos]

Quoth sleepyphoenixx:

A rod of lesser Chain Spell with the cleric casting Magic Vestment on the parties armor and shields is already a significant AC boost for relatively little investment.
Doesn't work. You can chain Greater Magic Weapon, but Magic Vestment is a touch spell, so you'd need to add reach too.

[zingbobco000]

I mean if you're focused on armor then just cast magic vestment, chained, empowered and extended. But a chained empowered ray of exhaustion can shut down almost every single enemy that you're melees will face (-9 STR and DEX opens up tripping options as well as low ATK bonuses.) Your cleric can also cast some buffing spells like prayer and others.

[tyckspoon]

Dastana and Chahar-Aina can only be used with leather and chain shirt armor. You can also only have one enhancement bonus to armor AC, it doesn't stack since it's the same bonus type. You can however enchant them seperately with special armor abilities to save some money compared to stacking all those abilities on a single piece of armor.

Actually, it does work.. it's the flip side of why you can't stack a Magic Vestment'd shirt with your real armor or Mage Armor or Bracers of Armor. 'Armor Enhancement' isn't actually a bonus type as far as stacking goes; it stacks as if it were Armor. And the Dastana and Chahar-Aina specifically have an allowance for their Armor bonus to stack with other armor.

[ericgrau]

Wealth is not really high, so extra magic doodads aren't really too do-able.

Level 10, non-casters getting shafted on gear. Time for them to pack it up and reroll a new character. Before they reroll try to tell the DM at high level treasure is an essential part of 3,5 game balance and you're all just gonna play casters if you can't get magic gear. Low magic isn't an option at all for non-magical classes in 3.5 if they expect to have any chance at all, except at low level. This isn't some optional thing the DM can just toss out on a whim. Play a different system, or play low level, or see sig for alternative ways to handle it, but the players need their stuff.

Though 30 AC, 28 AC with a heavy shield, doesn't seem so horrible at level 10 provided that the offense is still good. So excuse me if wealth is actually enough to manage. The player should also have something like a +1 holy weapon, +2 strength item, and offensive feats in general. At level 11-12 he should have a bit more since wealth should be rapidly climbing. If he is lasting 3 rounds but then gets killed then the problem is lack of offense not lack of defense; that should be plenty of time to kill something even with some of your resources going into defense.