How would a party of all Neutral Evil players work?

[killem2]

I'm going to be DMing a party of either four neutral evils or possibly a neutral mixed with three neutral evils. This adventure path will be an evil one. Is there anything specific I really need to be mindful of? The module actually says (though not to tell your players this), that it recommends lawful evil, but neutral, lawful neutral, and neutral evil alignments will work as well.

Way of the Wicked is the series.

[Studoku]

Are the players neutral evil or are their characters?:smallwink:

Alignment isn't a straightjacket or a two word description of someone's entire personality and behaviour. There are a variety of characters which can be described as neutral evil- many of which can exist fine in any party that doesn't have a paladin. The problem isn't evil- it's if your players make murderhobos or decide they're obliged to backstab each other.

Motivation is an important part of evil characters- it is for anyone but it's more important for evil characters. When you know what's motivating the party to do evil deeds, you can make sure working together is better than murdering each other.

[BWR]

^this
Evil characters can fit right in in just about any sort of party, given a little leeway. 'Evil' doesn't mean you are entirely lacking in everything resembling 'soft' feelings, like friendship, loyalty, codes of honor, weakness towards kittens or whatever.
A Neutral Evil party does not need to be about mere self-interest and they avoid stabbing eachother in the back until it becomes convenient; they can be honest, true friends who care for each other deeply and are saddened at the loss of a comrade and will stop at nothing to make sure their own are treated right. They can love puppies and flowers as much as the goodiest two shoes paladin or cleric.
They are just less likely to be bothered about brutally murdering people for their own ends, have any sort of empathy for anyone beyond their little group or see anything wrong with callously taking whatever they think they can get away with from who- or whatever they please.

[killem2]

I am confident the module does a good job at making it clear, you work together or you die.

[Shining Wrath]

The difference between Neutral and Evil is that both look out for #1, but Evil also likes hurting people. Which is to say, Evil is willing to do things which are not motivated by them benefiting, but by a desire to see others suffer. There is a continuum, of course.

The question for your party members is if they like hurting each other. If they limit their evil to those outside the group - something neutrals ought to be able to manage, though not quite as readily as lawfuls - they'll work fine.

Neutrals are also less likely to view themselves as bound by agreements with one another as lawfuls will.

[killem2]

I have one player who is considering switching to lawful evil, but how can a LE person jive with NE people? (her question paraphrased)

[Jergmo]

I see a party of Neutral Evil characters finding a way to make each of their self-serving agendas mesh in a highly efficient and ruthless manner. They could mesh quite well, in fact, but if any of the characters somehow comes to detract from the agendas of the other characters, that character becomes a pure liability.

I do second the opinion that they can be great friends and will protect one another, but in the end, Evil will always have a self-serving agenda in the mix, and that will override social connection if it comes down to the line. It might be different if they were, say, parental or sibling bonds, but even that can be overridden with certain breeds of psychopaths.

[Shining Wrath]

A LE person would tend to view NE people as being somewhat untrustworthy but at least they won't raise any moral objections to doing what needs to be done for the group to succeed.

The one thing I can't imagine is a chaotic evil group prospering for long. Neutral evil may be self-serving scum but at least they aren't rebels without a pause.

[Taveena]

To be fair, Chaotic Evil isn't necessarily all backstabbers either. Maybe they're all violent anarchists working together to overthrow something. I could throw some more examples together but I'm too lazy to.

[KorbeltheReader]

It would help here to decide what you mean by "neutral" and "evil," since there's basically no consensus on either of these points in the D&D community. It may help to rethink them in terms of moral philosophy, allegiances, or motivations. There's a great Escapist article exploring these here. (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/tabletop/checkfortraps/8436-All-About-Alignment-Part-II.3)

So, a party of characters that are "evil" in the sense of motivated entirely by sociopathic self-interest will have a great deal of trouble maintaining cohesion, whereas a party of characters worshiping an evil deity and working to spread its power may make a very effective team.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that an evil party needs either a boss or an immediate existential threat to function. The rogue needs a reason not to steal from his colleagues and bail on them as soon as they get into trouble, and that reason is usually going to be the threat of getting thumped by somebody more powerful. In fact, I'd say the cause of evil party death in most games is not monsters, but skimming of party treasure leading to pvp and angry players.

[Jergmo]

To be fair, Chaotic Evil isn't necessarily all backstabbers either. Maybe they're all violent anarchists working together to overthrow something. I could throw some more examples together but I'm too lazy to.

I think that certain gangs that are prevalent across the country may be a good way to look and see what a Chaotic Evil group mentality may be. Drugs, territorial violence, the methods of becoming a part of the group, the expectations of the group on individuals, and the consequences of trying to leave the group behind.

[killem2]

This is a pathfinder module, and it'll be 100% pathfinder rules.

With that said, I always refer my players to this site, as I feel it is one of the clearest Alignment sites around.

http://easydamus.com/alignment.html

[Grim Portent]

I note that a lot of the opinions in this thread seem to be assuming very strongly evil characters. Any and all evil characters have the potential to function as groups for mutual benefit. Evil does not need to be evil towards everyone. A good example of a party compatible evil viewpoint is 'us against the world', the evil character can identify strongly with a group and decide that they are it's sole allies in a world of victims and enemies. Other examples can be characters driven by highly specific hate, a human who will kill and rob any elf he meets could get along fine with any non-elven people who don't object too strongly to his elf killing.

Evil much like Good has gradiants and variations depending on how evil the character is.

[John Longarrow]

Depending on the type of evil, many don't care as much about personal survival as they do other things. As such, if the only motive to work together is "Do so or DIE", you can run into problems. If their motives are "I like you, your my brother/sister in arms, we work well together getting what we want (and we like compatable things)" then you get a much better mesh.

NOTE: Because they want to is always the best way to keep a party together. Doesn't matter if its toppling tyrants or bathing in the blood of children. Shared tastes and experiences work best.

[killem2]

I note that a lot of the opinions in this thread seem to be assuming very strongly evil characters. Any and all evil characters have the potential to function as groups for mutual benefit. Evil does not need to be evil towards everyone. A good example of a party compatible evil viewpoint is 'us against the world', the evil character can identify strongly with a group and decide that they are it's sole allies in a world of victims and enemies. Other examples can be characters driven by highly specific hate, a human who will kill and rob any elf he meets could get along fine with any non-elven people who don't object too strongly to his elf killing.

Evil much like Good has gradiants and variations depending on how evil the character is.

I can't really go into how much this module expects you to be evil, but I know the setting is, that the world is very much lawful good. It's the over all dominating alignment. In addition, these criminals will be branded, so people will know they are baddest of the bad.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Hi there,
I'm currently playing in a Way of the Wicked campaign. My party consists of two Lawful Evil characters, one Neutral Evil character, and one character whose sheet says "Neutral Evil" but is clearly Chaotic Evil. Our characters draw motivation from a variety of sources - power, money, vengeance, devotion, a lust for murder (guess who) - but it works. For all those varied personalities and desires, the PCs are all focused on the same goal, and they get things done. In the end of the first arc/module we basically depopulated before [spoiler redacted] even [spoiler redacted]. Just make sure no one is stupid evil and/or squicky evil and you're set. Also (very minor spoiler)[spoiler]The contract specifically makes sure you only turn on your allies/boss if a higher-up tells you to, among other things.

[killem2]

Hi there,
I'm currently playing in a Way of the Wicked campaign. My party consists of two Lawful Evil characters, one Neutral Evil character, and one character whose sheet says "Neutral Evil" but is clearly Chaotic Evil. Our characters draw motivation from a variety of sources - power, money, vengeance, devotion, a lust for murder (guess who) - but it works. For all those varied personalities and desires, the PCs are all focused on the same goal, and they get things done. In the end of the first arc/module we basically depopulated before [spoiler redacted] even [spoiler redacted]. Just make sure no one is stupid evil and/or squicky evil and you're set. Also (very minor spoiler)[spoiler]The contract specifically makes sure you only turn on your allies/boss if a higher-up tells you to, among other things.

So your chaotic evil person hiding as neutral evil, has the module given any retribution for that alignment? For those who don't know the module it recommends only allowing NE/N/LN/LE alignments only. No chaotic alignments no good alignments.

I ask because I have a younger player (14) who asked if he could be CE and I told him he would have to choose from the following four, because he wants to be super evil. I've explained to him that he can still be evil and enjoy committing evil, as N/E.

So we hopefully it all works out. The team is a pretty level headed group, they never find the need to betray each other, or not find a reason to work together.

[Fouredged Sword]

The way it tends to break down in my mind as follows.

Evil characters want to hurt you, cause you pain, and kill you.

Lawful characters want to do so within the law. They want to find ways to make the laws hurt you. Think sadistic cops or other people who abuse power.

Neutral characters just want to hurt people. If the law helps them, then fine, if not then also fine. They will work within the law until the law stops helping them, then they will work outside the law. Think Jafar in Aladin. He follows the rules and enjoys making his underlings suffer, but when given a shot at upending the king, he takes it without a second thought.

Chaotic characters want to deliberately break the law. They won't kill the people they are supposed to and will kill those they are supposed to protect. Think the joker. He loves to hurt people and kill them. He won't kill batman though, who it makes the most sense he would kill. He acts for no other reason than to deliberately subvert expectations and rules.

The reason way of the wicked suggests no chaotic characters is that a chaotic evil character will act out of ideal rather than self interest and tank the deal, kicking your plot off the rails and getting everyone killed. Better to stick to NE and LE, who will put survival and their word first, respectively.

NE is more pure evil than CE. CE is a little more insane, but actually less evil. The question is "If the city hired you as a torturer, would you enjoy following orders to hurt people?" A NE character would enjoy hurting people for any reason. A CE character would chafe under the idea that it was what he was supposed to do.

[Vogonjeltz]

I'm going to be DMing a party of either four neutral evils or possibly a neutral mixed with three neutral evils. This adventure path will be an evil one. Is there anything specific I really need to be mindful of? The module actually says (though not to tell your players this), that it recommends lawful evil, but neutral, lawful neutral, and neutral evil alignments will work as well.

Way of the Wicked is the series.

I'd imagine it would be similar to the way breaking bad worked out. (Inevitably bad things happen to our protagonists)

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

So your chaotic evil person hiding as neutral evil, has the module given any retribution for that alignment? For those who don't know the module it recommends only allowing NE/N/LN/LE alignments only. No chaotic alignments no good alignments.

I ask because I have a younger player (14) who asked if he could be CE and I told him he would have to choose from the following four, because he wants to be super evil. I've explained to him that he can still be evil and enjoy committing evil, as N/E.

So we hopefully it all works out. The team is a pretty level headed group, they never find the need to betray each other, or not find a reason to work together.Allow me to clarify. The player insists his character is NE. The other players, including myself, strongly believe he is CE because of his tendency to bristle at authority figures, respond to any slight with violence, and really take any spare moment as an excuse to murder something. If problem persists, add more dakka, y'know? The GM, who's probably the most reasonable one involved, lets him interpret NE in the way he chooses, as long as he doesn't do anything too stupid, or violate the contract egregiously.

In any event, when it actually does come to killin' things he pulls his weight and then some. Team Evil keeps dangerous psychopaths around if they're useful enough.