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nathkry
2007-02-08, 10:23 PM
I recently got the book Dragon Magic, and looking at the Dragonfire Adept, it seemed kind of broken. First of all, it gets a breath weapon usable AT WILL, which is better than actual dragons, which get one usable once every 1d4 rounds. Also, they get natural armor, d8 hit dice, two good saves, 4+Int skills, and spells usable AT WILL, which can be almost the same as other spells of higher level.

What do you think?

Jack Mann
2007-02-08, 10:36 PM
It's like the warlock, only it doesn't suck so badly. Really, the spell-likes really aren't that overpowering. WotC simply learned from the Warlock and realized this fact, and so they gave it a boost. It's still not as powerful as your full casters.

Galathir
2007-02-08, 10:37 PM
I ran one as a NPC for a campaign a while ago and it didn't seem that overpowered. I think it's a bit better than a Warlock (I've heard it is what a Warlock should have been), but that's just because a Warlock is often a little underpowered. I like the flavor and would like to play one sometime in the future. Perhaps someone who has actually played one can offer some more profound insights.

Seffbasilisk
2007-02-08, 10:37 PM
It's like a fighter. Steady damage output, a few nifty tricks. That's about it.

nathkry
2007-02-09, 11:34 PM
Yeah, I don't know, they seem unbalanced at first glance, but I haven't had a chance to play one. Still, breath weapon at will does seem strange because as I previously mentioned, it's better than an actual dragon's.

The_Snark
2007-02-10, 12:07 AM
Well, you can use it more often than a dragon can, anyway. If you're doing more damage with it, that's got to be a pretty young dragon.

Ivius
2007-02-10, 01:14 AM
Well, in my opinion, it should be more powerful. A dragon knows only what it's instincts tell it, an adept spends time studying the raw magical forces of a dragon's breath.

Quietus
2007-02-10, 01:21 AM
A dragon knows a great deal about itself and the world around it... the Draconomicon covers a lot of the physiology of a dragon (which is very interesting stuff), but you don't have to go outside the core - the MM alone makes it clear that dragons are highly intelligent creatures, with the possible exception of the animalistic Whites. And even them, I play as having a pretty notable amount of smarts.

JimmyDPawn
2007-02-10, 02:05 AM
Breath weapon overpowered? Hardly. Does the same damage as the warlock, is really short ranged (and not extendable), and is good against the same sort of targets (those with poor reflex are often the same ones with poor touch AC). The only advantage is that is can strike more targets than the warlock, without the need for the blast shapes.

Also, they lack armour. Yes they gain natural armour, but I'm pretty sure that in the long run, it turns into less(than a warlock), unless you splurge on bracers of armour.

All that aside, I think they're pretty awesome. I've always had an obsession with vaguely draconic characters, though I don't like the adjustment on the half dragon.

Two thumbs up.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-10, 05:30 AM
Ask yourself, what can it do each combat round? Calculate the average damage and note any other useful effects (i.e., Entangling Exhalation is a good one). It doesn't come out very powerful at all.

Quirinus_Obsidian
2007-02-10, 08:20 PM
Ask yourself, what can it do each combat round? Calculate the average damage and note any other useful effects (i.e., Entangling Exhalation is a good one). It doesn't come out very powerful at all.


I like the class idea personally. A base class that is based upon a breath weapon; with all of the fantastic breah effects in the Draconomicon, and can hit stuff? Wait... that's the Dragon Shaman. Methinks this is the companion to the Dragon Shaman.

nathkry
2007-02-10, 10:45 PM
Well, in my opinion, it should be more powerful. A dragon knows only what it's instincts tell it, an adept spends time studying the raw magical forces of a dragon's breath.

Yesw, but dragonfire adepts "Draw upon a direct link with the nature of draconic existance, infusing their soul with the raw magic of dragons." Wouldn't it make sense that dragonkind would have a stronger link to their own existence, likely partially manifesting itself as a better breath weapon.

PinkysBrain
2007-02-10, 10:56 PM
Breath weapon isn't a complete win over eldritch blast, the warlock can get quicken spell like ability for his eldritch blast.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-10, 10:57 PM
And the Dragonfire Adept can get, oh, say, Clinging Breath.

PinkysBrain
2007-02-10, 11:00 PM
I only said it wasn't a complete win.

PS. hmm, that's only an advantage for a couple of levels damage wise I guess ... until the Adept gets Fivefold Breath of Tiamat.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-10, 11:06 PM
It's not at all an advantage damage-wise, because it's 3/day.

PinkysBrain
2007-02-10, 11:18 PM
I doubt you will need it more than that, even warlocks often have better options than doing damage. Also there is the ever popular Eldritch Glaive.

Jack Mann
2007-02-10, 11:22 PM
That's why it's not a very good choice.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-10, 11:37 PM
I doubt you will need it more than that, even warlocks often have better options than doing damage. Also there is the ever popular Eldritch Glaive.

Yes. Yes, there is. Of course, then you're in the thick of the melee, which means something is going to eat your face.

The Dragonfire Adept is a lot more survivable at close range than the Warlock, and can do more than just damage at the same time (Entangling Exhalation, say).

Counterspin
2007-02-12, 04:37 PM
Dragonfire adept is a wretched class, in my opinion. You end up with worse AC than a wizard because the wizard has mage armor, then greater mage armor and your natural ac never catches up. You have lots of hit points, admittedly, but you have to be within 30ft. of anything you want to effect with your breath weapon, i.e. within charging range of anything medium or larger, until lvl 10.

Even taking clinging breath, you're never going to do as much damage as say a rogue. Your debuff breaths require constant reapplication, which further lessens your capacity for damage, and they generally aren't that great.

Having recently played one from level one to level seven, give it a pass. If you want to homebrew them to be a little more fun, give them spell slots, at the levels appropriate for wizards, which can only be used to spontaneously cast the breath weapon spells from the Draconomicon, but they'd still be pretty bad.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-12, 04:45 PM
I disagree--Entangling Exhalation is a very solid debuff/control tool, and Chilling Fog is awesome, especially with wall-effect breath. Between Clinging Breath, DOT breath effects, and a few other things, you can have decent damage. Slow breath slows them for one round even if they *make* their save, making it a *great* debuff (and one that can keep you safe--they can move to you *or* attack someone, not move to you and attack you).
Flyby Attacks helps you stay out of harm's way, especially with speed increases; you can wear some pretty solid armor since you won't be making attack rolls and don't care about proficiency--just either have invocations that you use out of combat (with breath in combat) or ASF-reducing armor.

With 4+INT skills, you can be a good party face (especially with that +6 invocation) and the spot/listen guy, or a knowledge monkey (Draconic Knowledge, plus the free Identify, are very handy). Plus you get UMD.

This class isn't top-notch, and it doesn't fill a major party role, but it'd certainly make a better fifth party memeber than, say, the bard.

Person_Man
2007-02-12, 05:21 PM
I like the Adept for a lot of reasons, but Bears is right. A normal game will have 1-8 encounters per game day - the DMG suggests 4. Most combats will last 1-6 rounds before they are essentially won or lost. That means a a PC needs to act in 1-48 rounds, with an average around 20ish rounds per game day in most campaigns. A mid level caster can fill almost every round with a spell (or wand). Having the ability to deal modest damage and a nifty secondary effect every round really isn't that impressive unless you have marathon combat on a regular basis. And if you're playing marathon combat that often, you should really consider Heroclix instead of D&D.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-12, 05:27 PM
Considering how good Entangling Exhalation, Chilling Fog, and Slow Breath are, I'd say that there's definitely something useful to do each round.

Quietus
2007-02-12, 05:42 PM
I clearly don't have the splat lines that you do, what do those do?

Fax Celestis
2007-02-12, 05:46 PM
Gestalting Dragonfire Adept with a Sorceror and taking a bunch of those breath weapon spells would be fairly awesome, in my opinion.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-12, 05:47 PM
Chilling Fog and Slow Breath are part of the Dragonfire Adept class--Chilling Fog is an invocation that is like the Solid Fog spell + damage over time, and Slow Breath makes the DA's breath apply a Slow effect, for 2 rounds on a failed save, for 1 round on a successful one.
Entangling Exhalation is a feat that lets you reduce breath damage and make people it hits entangled (and take damage over time).

Quietus
2007-02-12, 06:01 PM
Wow.... that sounds pretty awesome. I'm thinking I should take a closer look at that class, then. Thanks!

Counterspin
2007-02-12, 08:29 PM
Bears : I will admit that having run the Dragon Adept in the world's largest dungeon module has heavily colored my judgment. This negates flight because it's entirely two dimensional. The tight quarters also make it very hard to get in a position where your breath weapon isn't hitting someone on your team.

I think it's sort of unfair the way you're presenting the adept though. You talk about wearing heavy armor, which I did, but that conflicts pretty heavily with using invocations because if you're using heavy armor those invocations are going to fail much of time.

So you can forgo the armor and run the heavy battlefield control you describe, which is a combination of breath weapons and invocations, or you can run just the breath weapon, either as control or damage, and wear the armor.

But you're right, Entangling Exhalation single handedly makes the class much better, and I must admit that I'd missed it. I can't believe it doesn't have a saving throw. Slow is very good, but I found the cone requirement to be stifling in the setting I was playing in. So all in all, my character could have been better, but I still don't suggest a Dragon Adept.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-12, 09:54 PM
As to your breath weapon hitting someone on your side: there's actually not one but two ways to get around this: one is a low-level invocation that makes your allies immune to your breath weapon; the other is a breath effect that excludes squares from your breath weapon.

The WLD makes things a bit different, yeah--negates the advantage of flight, for example. OTOH, your unlimited breathing should've been good. Lack of chance to buy your own items means no, for example, ASF-free medium armor; no wand of Shield Other (couple with the Draconic Toughness invocation to save someone in your party a lot of pain), and otherwise hurts (especially given that UMD's a class skill).

I think overall, you're not giving the class enough credit--it takes a little tinkering, but it's no Samurai or Soulknife. It has something(s) solidly effective it can do each round, it's not that fragile (HP, natural armor, ASF-free armor, and an excellent fort and good will save), and has a few useful out-of-combat tricks, too.

I've yet to play one, myself--but the WLD isn't a great representation of how "regular" games work, either. So I'd say making an effective Dragonfire Adept is definitely possible--they're certainly better than Warlocks.

Counterspin
2007-02-13, 01:18 AM
But you have to forfeit slow for one, for at least five levels, and an invocation for the other of which you get a total of eight in your entire career as a dragon disciple. Not saying you can't do it, saying it stings.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-13, 03:52 AM
Yeah, but the invocation is pretty much the best low-level invocation. It's the best option--touch your friends, make them immune, and breathe away.

Quietus
2007-02-14, 06:11 AM
How often can you cast invocations, normally? If they're unlimited, then perhaps there might be some comparison. If they're limited per day, however, and your breath weapon isn't... it's a far better choice that allows you to play to your strengths.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-14, 06:38 AM
Invocations are unlimited use per day. Still, I'd put "can breathe without worrying about where allies are" at the top of the priority list, so that's the one to take.

Zincorium
2007-02-14, 06:39 AM
How often can you cast invocations, normally? If they're unlimited, then perhaps there might be some comparison. If they're limited per day, however, and your breath weapon isn't... it's a far better choice that allows you to play to your strengths.

Well, as many times as you want. Someone actually did the math a while back as to how many could theoretically be done in a day, one per standard action. Suffice to say it's a really big number.

To put it simply, invocations are unlimited. So yeah, comparison is valid.

Jack Mann
2007-02-14, 02:29 PM
14,400. Ten rounds a minute, sixty minutes an hour, twenty-four hours a day.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-14, 02:47 PM
14,400. Ten rounds a minute, sixty minutes an hour, twenty-four hours a day.

Quicken SLA for three more!

nathkry
2007-02-14, 10:38 PM
14,400. Ten rounds a minute, sixty minutes an hour, twenty-four hours a day.

Only 9600 if you get eight hours of sleep, 12000 if you're an elf

Jack Mann
2007-02-14, 10:41 PM
Yes, but 14,400 is still the theoretical maximum, before quicken.

jameswilliamogle
2007-02-15, 02:34 PM
A couple of things about the Warlock and Dragonfire Adept, that I've come to realize:

1. They are hard to screw up. The invocation selections are so limited, they have plenty of time to consider them. Many people think they're broken just b/c the Warlock and DA are good right at 1st.

2. Dragonfire Adepts can't take the draconomicon feats to boost their breath weapon. They have no cool down period between uses (and no, 0 rounds between uses is not a cool down period): if your DM says its cool, then its cool, though.

3. Dragonfire Adepts aren't > Warlocks. Warlocks are generalists: they get 4 more invocations (which counts for a lot), can make any item they need (given enough time and picking the right feats), and the take 10 on UMD checks really, really helps. Dragonfire Adepts can cover a broader area w/ breath, and apply a lot of neat add-ons to the breath weapon, and have quite a few unique options for invocations. The DA makes a much better crowd control character earlier on, but they're about the same at high levels.

4. DA are > Warlocks in a fight, but just barely. DA never have to make attack rolls, and the invocations are usually 24h. They put on the heaviest armor they feel comfortable with, and equip a tower shield. Warlocks on the other hand are limited to light armors and mithril bucklers, for about a 3-5 AC disparity.

Anyways, that's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it!

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-15, 02:41 PM
A couple of things about the Warlock and Dragonfire Adept, that I've come to realize:

1. They are hard to screw up. The invocation selections are so limited, they have plenty of time to consider them. Many people think they're broken just b/c the Warlock and DA are good right at 1st.
They're pretty easy to screw up; if you do, they won't be good at anything.


2. Dragonfire Adepts can't take the draconomicon feats to boost their breath weapon. They have no cool down period between uses (and no, 0 rounds between uses is not a cool down period): if your DM says its cool, then its cool, though.
Being Dragonborn (RotD) lets you qualify for the feat anyway, at which point you can use it on your DfA breath weapon.


3. Dragonfire Adepts aren't > Warlocks. Warlocks are generalists: they get 4 more invocations (which counts for a lot), can make any item they need (given enough time and picking the right feats), and the take 10 on UMD checks really, really helps. Dragonfire Adepts can cover a broader area w/ breath, and apply a lot of neat add-ons to the breath weapon, and have quite a few unique options for invocations. The DA makes a much better crowd control character earlier on, but they're about the same at high levels.
Dragonfire Adepts are vastly > Warlocks. Warlocks can't do anything. Dragonfire Adepts are excellent debuffers and battlefield controllers.


4. DA are > Warlocks in a fight, but just barely. DA never have to make attack rolls, and the invocations are usually 24h. They put on the heaviest armor they feel comfortable with, and equip a tower shield. Warlocks on the other hand are limited to light armors and mithril bucklers, for about a 3-5 AC disparity.

Anyways, that's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it!
Forget about attack rolls and AC. DA are > in a fight because of what they can *do* every round, such as entangle and slow (for one round even on a *successful* save. Various feats, like Clinging Breath, make their breath weapon more damaging than the EB to boot.

Maximus5684
2007-09-10, 09:02 PM
I know this thread is practically dead, but I just thought I'd add my two cents. A friend of mine who is utterly awesome at creating great character combinations came up with something amazing. Here's the scoop:

Start as a gnome. This gives a +2 to Con and -2 to Str (boo hoo). Become a Dragonborn before first level. This adds another +2 to Con and -2 to Dex (again, boo hoo). Take the Breath ability from Dragonborn.

Now take your first level in Cleric (which grants you heavy armor proficiency). At your first level take Dragonscale Husk from Dragon Magic as an alternate class ability that replaces the heavy armor proficiency. This grants a +6 to natural armor which, by the description in the book, stacks with your other natural armor bonus (the one you will get from the Dragonfire Adept) and also has no arcane spell failure chance. Pick up a Wand of Shield to augment this AC bonus by another +4.

Now take at least 3 levels of Dragonfire Adept. This grants you another +2 Nat Armor, a second breath weapon at 2d6 (with a Breath Effect) along side your (now) 2d8 Dragonborn breath weapon. Not to mention you've got 2 least invocations (one of which should be Endure Exposure to protect your allies from both breath weapons) and you can pick up a Breath Channeling feat from Races of the Dragon (such as Entangling Exhalation) that you can use on both breath weapons! Oh, and your breath weapons both have kick-ass ACs due to the racial Con boosts. Sweet, huh?