I think Wee Jas is the most....complex god thing in D&D

[CyberThread]

I think Wee Jas is the most complex god-thing , within D&D with many facets of her story line, instead of just being a common ideal given a face and name like other gods seem to be.

[Falcon X]

I don't think I'm learned enough to say she's the most complex, but the gamemakers have definitely given me enough material on her to make her my favorite deity.

For the past two years, inevitably, one of the characters in the games I've made have had some dealings with her, making her their primary god. Notably, I don't know if any of them has actually worshiped her. She just has so much influence that she is hard to ignore.

I'm also working on a novel with her as a central figure. Doubt it'll ever get published, knowing the publishing industry as it is. Still, her personality was too much for me to ignore.
If you have any interest, I'd love to bat around a few ideas I'm thinking about using with her, to see if they are within her character.

[Mcdt2]

I dunno about that, she doesn't seem that complex and fleshed out to me, really. Sure, she is covered in some detail, but it's certainly nothing compared to the insanity that is Vecna's history. Could you give some examples on Wee Jas? I'm not finding very much, aside from standard info on the worshippers, holy days, her dogma, and a very interesting concept about her having hidden away much of her divine power in a "Well" of some sort.

[Urpriest]

Wee Jas made it into Core, but she's really a Greyhawk god for a specific, ancient cultural group. As such, she's got the sort of detailed, seemingly contradictory theology that resembles gods from historical cultures, rather than the "we need a god of domain X for generic fantasy" that other gods tend to get.

[Falcon X]

I dunno about that, she doesn't seem that complex and fleshed out to me, really. Sure, she is covered in some detail, but it's certainly nothing compared to the insanity that is Vecna's history. Could you give some examples on Wee Jas? I'm not finding very much, aside from standard info on the worshippers, holy days, her dogma, and a very interesting concept about her having hidden away much of her divine power in a "Well" of some sort.Okay, if we're going to pull Vecna out...
Vecna is definitely as much or more fleshed out than Wee Jas.

I think the point here is that Wee Jas is one of the more original D&D deities and has been substantially fleshed out enough to make her great to work with.
Can anyone think of other deities that are at the level of Vecna and Wee Jas?

Much of the complexity of Wee Jas is pieced together from different places:
- The Ruby Knight Vindicator Prestige Class in ToB.
- Dragon Magazine 88 and 350.
- On Hallowed Ground, Deities and Demigods, Complete Divine, and other deity sourcebooks.
- Her relationships with other deities. Including her romance with her polar opposite Nerebo. Notably, Nerebo is a reverse of spellings on Oberon. People have theorized that this makes Wee Jas an alternate form of Titania.
- The fact that she is a death god. But not a god that promotes death. She is specifically a god of Repose, which is a really unique position.
- That she might be the single most knowledgeable being on the laws of the universe, and yet submits herself to her father and holes herself away in Acheron like a hermit.
- Acheron. She has an Ice Palace in the deepest, darkest corner of the multiverse. Her position just gives her so much mystery.
- Vanity. That this is in her portfolio is really interesting. Though, it's not necessarily a vanity of beauty. It is the vanity of meritocracy. You deserve to think highly of yourself if you've earned it. The ends justify the means. For this, her alignment leans towards evil.

[Red Fel]

If nothing else, she has one of the best - if not the very best - deity-specific PrCs in 3.5, the Ruby Knight Vindicator.

And don't give me that "we can refluff it, we have the technology" hooey. Wee Jas got the originals, give her the credit.

But yeah. Not many deities can claim both LG paladins and LE necromancers under a single umbrella.

[~xFellWardenx~]

But yeah. Not many deities can claim both LG paladins and LE necromancers under a single umbrella.

Nothing quite as confusing and disturbing as being charged at by both paladins and blackguards under the same banner. Yeesh.

[VoxRationis]

Their worship of the same god would not necessarily predispose them to work together if their other ideals are that different. I need hardly point out that schisms within a religion can be long-running, bloody affairs.
As a DM, though, I would rule that since Wee Jas's clerics automatically channel negative rather than positive energy, she shouldn't be able to support paladins, RKV be damned. Core is higher priority than supplementals, and if you can't make an undead-turning cleric of a particular god, then you shouldn't have other characters, belonging to the same god, be able to turn undead.

[dascarletm]

if you can't make an undead-turning cleric of a particular god, then you shouldn't have other characters, belonging to the same god, be able to turn undead.

Hogwash!

Clearly the clerics are just "in the know" while the paladins are blind to the truth.

[Afgncaap5]

See, I think that if you want to go by the book, her paladins still channel positive energy.

If you don't want to go by RAW though? You've just found a perfect excuse to create a prestige class for your campaign. "Blackguards of Wee Jas" or something like that; paladins who use dark magic to promote good works.

[CyberThread]

See, I think that if you want to go by the book, her paladins still channel positive energy.

If you don't want to go by RAW though? You've just found a perfect excuse to create a prestige class for your campaign. "Blackguards of Wee Jas" or something like that; paladins who use dark magic to promote good works.


Well the RKV is just nasty with someone who dips into Sanctified one, victim of a death spell or negative health? You get a chance to heal yourself, or counter whatever is trying to kill you, or just say screw it, you know your going to die anyways, and go supernova with no fear of a backlash.


Now as for paladins, I think this would also be a good time to bring up bone knight, as a good adaption of what a good aligned paladin may look like under wee jas.

[Urpriest]

Okay, if we're going to pull Vecna out...
Vecna is definitely as much or more fleshed out than Wee Jas.

I think the point here is that Wee Jas is one of the more original D&D deities and has been substantially fleshed out enough to make her great to work with.
Can anyone think of other deities that are at the level of Vecna and Wee Jas?

Much of the complexity of Wee Jas is pieced together from different places:
- The Ruby Knight Vindicator Prestige Class in ToB.
- Dragon Magazine 88 and 350.
- On Hallowed Ground, Deities and Demigods, Complete Divine, and other deity sourcebooks.
- Her relationships with other deities. Including her romance with her polar opposite Nerebo. Notably, Nerebo is a reverse of spellings on Oberon. People have theorized that this makes Wee Jas an alternate form of Titania.
- The fact that she is a death god. But not a god that promotes death. She is specifically a god of Repose, which is a really unique position.
- That she might be the single most knowledgeable being on the laws of the universe, and yet submits herself to her father and holes herself away in Acheron like a hermit.
- Acheron. She has an Ice Palace in the deepest, darkest corner of the multiverse. Her position just gives her so much mystery.
- Vanity. That this is in her portfolio is really interesting. Though, it's not necessarily a vanity of beauty. It is the vanity of meritocracy. You deserve to think highly of yourself if you've earned it. The ends justify the means. For this, her alignment leans towards evil.

The thing is, while Vecna has a lot written about him, I wouldn't call him fleshed out. He's basically "evil mastermind jerk", and all of his many accomplishments fall back on that theme. Compared to Wee Jas, who's got the sort of complexity and mystery that you described, I don't think he even compares.

[Red Fel]

The thing is, while Vecna has a lot written about him, I wouldn't call him fleshed out.

I don't think anyone would.

[Kamin_Majere]

I don't think anyone would.

what you did there... I see it :smallbiggrin:

[dascarletm]

I don't think anyone would.

what you did there... I see it :smallbiggrin:


I don't get it. What is this blue for sarcasm? Never

[Dusk Eclipse]

http://cdn.obsidianportal.com/assets/60491/Vecna.jpg

[VoxRationis]

Look at the way his legs are spread out. Was he a cavalryman in life?

[CyberThread]

Look at the way his legs are spread out. Was he a cavalryman in life?


No someone put him on a antimagic hat rack, his dangling and unable to get down.

[Nettlekid]

My favorite thing about Wee Jas is her relationship with death and the undead. We tend to think of gods of death as being all about undead as well, like they go hand in hand, but Wee Jas hates the undead. She tolerates them only if they're of dire importance, and destroys them as soon as they should be destroyed. Which is pretty cool.

I think Wee Jas and Olidammara are my favorite gods.

[VoxRationis]

Which is a little weird, given that the Death domain, which she gives, focuses heavily on undead creation. That was always something that bothered me about the Death domain.

[Coidzor]

The thing is, while Vecna has a lot written about him, I wouldn't call him fleshed out. He's basically "evil mastermind jerk", and all of his many accomplishments fall back on that theme. Compared to Wee Jas, who's got the sort of complexity and mystery that you described, I don't think he even compares.

Yeah, it's kind of weird, he went from being a Dark Lord/Saurony type to a plotting schemer then he got locked up in Ravenloft, broke out and almost became the ultimate cosmic power in the multiverse, and is now a skulking schemer and not even a God of Saturday Morning Cartoon Villainy like Bane.

[Particle_Man]

I like the idea of a Blackguard who used to be a Paladin and never, not once, wavered in her devotion to Wee Jas.

I also like the idea of a colour-based "red and blue" team up between a RKV and a Sapphire Hierarch (although the latter might be a little upset at the former's tolerance of magic when used for certain purposes the latter thinks goes against the laws of nature).

[Particle_Man]

Which is a little weird, given that the Death domain, which she gives, focuses heavily on undead creation. That was always something that bothered me about the Death domain.

IMC I replace it with the Repose domain.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/domains.htm#reposeDomain

The other option is that the undead can only be created with the express permission of a high priest, and only for a limited purpose, and they have to be controlled at all times and destroyed if they get controlled by someone else (and destroyed anyhow when their usefulness is at an end).

[Eldan]

My favorite thing about Wee Jas is her relationship with death and the undead. We tend to think of gods of death as being all about undead as well, like they go hand in hand, but Wee Jas hates the undead. She tolerates them only if they're of dire importance, and destroys them as soon as they should be destroyed. Which is pretty cool.

I think Wee Jas and Olidammara are my favorite gods.

Honestly, I'm really just wondering why so many of the D&D death gods seem to love undeath so much. I can't think of anyone from real world mythology who would and it doesn't even make too much sense from an ingame perspective. Gods get the souls of their worshippers when said worshippers die. They don't get them when they become undead. Promoting undeath seems a great way of draining your own power.

[OldTrees1]

Honestly, I'm really just wondering why so many of the D&D death gods seem to love undeath so much. I can't think of anyone from real world mythology who would and it doesn't even make too much sense from an ingame perspective. Gods get the souls of their worshippers when said worshippers die. They don't get them when they become undead. Promoting undeath seems a great way of draining your own power.

A lich of Vecna can harm Pelor by raising pelorites as ghouls. (It goes without saying that they are raised is against their will)
Wee Jas considers such an act to be unjustifiable despite the practical benefits.

That is why I like Wee Jas, she is not type-ist like Pelor and still has a better heart than Vecna.

[CyberThread]

A lich of Vecna can harm Pelor by raising pelorites as ghouls. (It goes without saying that they are raised is against their will)
Wee Jas considers such an act to be unjustifiable despite the practical benefits.

That is why I like Wee Jas, she is not type-ist like Pelor and still has a better heart than Vecna.


Not sure where this is coming from, she is not against raising the dead, unless it is against the law to do such.

[OldTrees1]

Not sure where this is coming from, she is not against raising the dead, unless it is against the law to do such.

When I read the Dragon Magazine article it I though I read something about her only being okay with intelligent undead if the souls were willing. Especially if they are souls from her people(Suel?).

So she would be against a necromancer trapping a soul in the body of an intelligent undead against its will.

[Red Fel]

Yeah, it's kind of weird, he went from being a Dark Lord/Saurony type to a plotting schemer then he got locked up in Ravenloft, broke out and almost became the ultimate cosmic power in the multiverse, and is now a skulking schemer and not even a God of Saturday Morning Cartoon Villainy like Bane.

So, in other words, Wee Jas is your archetypical sorceress, or cold or evil queen, or any number of magnificent tropes that can be applied to a beautiful and powerful woman, and Vecna... Is Skeletor (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVppuv9Pcqk).

[Alleran]

My favorite thing about Wee Jas is her relationship with death and the undead. We tend to think of gods of death as being all about undead as well, like they go hand in hand, but Wee Jas hates the undead. She tolerates them only if they're of dire importance, and destroys them as soon as they should be destroyed. Which is pretty cool.
Kelemvor is similar in that sense. Death is a part of life, undead are abominations and need to be exterminated.

[Talya]

My favorite thing about Wee Jas is her relationship with death and the undead. We tend to think of gods of death as being all about undead as well, like they go hand in hand, but Wee Jas hates the undead. She tolerates them only if they're of dire importance, and destroys them as soon as they should be destroyed. Which is pretty cool.

Kelemvor is the same, only without the toleration if they're of dire importance.

Makes sense, if you think about it. Undeath is rather in opposition to Death.

[Dusk Eclipse]

IIRC Wee Jas only allows people to undead-ify themselves if they need more time to complete a project or something along those line and she requires them to destroy themselves once said project is finished. She has a really utilitarian view on Undead as far as I understand.

[Urpriest]

When I read the Dragon Magazine article it I though I read something about her only being okay with intelligent undead if the souls were willing. Especially if they are souls from her people(Suel?).

So she would be against a necromancer trapping a soul in the body of an intelligent undead against its will.

That's the impression I got too. She's ok with intelligent undead, but only if they're there willingly and for a reason. (Part of my headcanon on this front is that this means she's ok with Masters of Shrouds, which rather helps justify the Melisandre E6 build.)

She's ok with unintelligent undead, especially the cleaners ones like Skeletons, provided the corpses are treated with respect and proper rites. I think there are even Skeletons in her fortress.

[eastmabl]

Honestly, I'm really just wondering why so many of the D&D death gods seem to love undeath so much. I can't think of anyone from real world mythology who would and it doesn't even make too much sense from an ingame perspective. Gods get the souls of their worshippers when said worshippers die. They don't get them when they become undead. Promoting undeath seems a great way of draining your own power.

Aside from other responses, I think that you assume that necromancers are raising the dead of souls who worshiped undead worshiping deities in their lifetime.

That's probably not the case - when the necromancer stops by a village graveyard, he's raising the late townsfolk. They tend to worship Pelor/Heironious/whatever goody-two-shoes god that served said townfolk the best in their profession, and not Wee Jas/Vecna/other fond-of-undeath deities.

Now, by raising the townsfolk, you're sapping the goody-two-shoes gods of their worshipers, and draining power from them. You're not touching any of your own worshipers, thereby sapping your own god's power.

[Snowbluff]

I also like the idea of a colour-based "red and blue" team up between a RKV and a Sapphire Hierarch (although the latter might be a little upset at the former's tolerance of magic when used for certain purposes the latter thinks goes against the laws of nature).
I'm doing this in one of my games right now.

She is definitely one of my favorites. The magic domain is pretty sweet for her fluff, too.

[Coidzor]

Honestly, I'm really just wondering why so many of the D&D death gods seem to love undeath so much. I can't think of anyone from real world mythology who would and it doesn't even make too much sense from an ingame perspective. Gods get the souls of their worshippers when said worshippers die. They don't get them when they become undead. Promoting undeath seems a great way of draining your own power.

What's better than having a level 12 cleric serve you for 30 years after spending two decades growing up and another two getting to level 12? A level 12 cleric serving you for 300 years and leveling up to 15 over that period of time.

So that's at least a plausible reason why one would be down with a fair portion of one's powerful mortal pawns becoming undead or otherwise less than mortal, so they get more use out of them than eating everything that isn't a 2 HD petitioner or washed away by the Astral. And then when they do finally get offed, because that's the general tendency of even most creatures with decent levels, there's at least a fair chance that they'll have even more levels to eat than they would have if they hadn't let them marinate as undead first.

They don't seem to tend towards having most of the rank-and-file made into undead though from what I've seen.

[Prezes]

That's the impression I got too. She's ok with intelligent undead, but only if they're there willingly and for a reason. (Part of my headcanon on this front is that this means she's ok with Masters of Shrouds, which rather helps justify the Melisandre E6 build.)

She's ok with unintelligent undead, especially the cleaners ones like Skeletons, provided the corpses are treated with respect and proper rites. I think there are even Skeletons in her fortress.

Wee Jas is ok with creating of mindless undeads. Intelligent ones must agree for return. She not care if they are created for reasons or not as long as eariel criteria are meet)

Yet I mostly agree with your interpretation of Wee Jas.

There is enough of Non-evil-dead-gods-who-hate-undeads (Kelemvor, Pharsama, etc)

Sorry for thread-necromancy, but I has to do

[Peelee]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: The Ruby Sorceress is also the steward of dead threads.