Effigy Creature Question

[Yogibear41]

An effigy creature loses all feats except for feats that improve its attacks, so would a elf effigy, or an effigy that originally had a level in fighter before the template was applied be able to keep its weapon proficiencies, since not taking a -4 is an improvement to its attacks?

Would it be able to keep armor proficiencies since not taking a negative due to ACP, improves its attacks? (I know the armor one is almost definitely a no, just having a bit of fun)

If I was going to make an effigy based on a humanoid race such as an orc, should I use 10s and 11s as its base scores before applying modifiers or should I use say the stats of the 1st level orc warrior from the MM? Basically which stat array.

[dextercorvia]

Fighter weapon proficiencies are not feats. Also (despite the clause about losing HD from class levels) I don't think you can make an effigy creature of something with class levels. Remember, you are creating a replica of a creature, not turning an existing creature into a construct.

Elven feats do improve attacks, so they should carry over.

[John Longarrow]

Effigy's get average stats for their race.

[Yogibear41]

Hmm, for a medium sized 1 HD base creature then it looks like a Baboon would be the best base creature for say a foot soldier, while a Vassal Abeil or an Aarakocra would be the best for an aerial assault, and then maybe a Siv or Shalarin for an aquatic fighter.

Yeah Scratch all that, looking through 1 hd races with high LAs now for all those absurd ability score modifiers, pretty sure I can beat what the Baboon has to offer.

[Yogibear41]

Hmmm, just noticed it says in the template the creature keeps any proficiencies it already had for weapons doh.
So not sure if you could have an orc effigy with an exotic or martial weapon because the base creature had 1 class level that gave him that proficiency, or if you would have to use something like an elf to be able to keep the proficiencies since they get it just for being that race.

[dextercorvia]

What about a Mineral Warrior Half Minotaur Anthropomorphic Badger?

[Yogibear41]

What about a Mineral Warrior Half Minotaur Anthropomorphic Badger?

You silly man, needs to be just a base creature with out other templates on it.

[dextercorvia]

You silly man, needs to be just a base creature with out other templates on it.

I do like the idea of mindless soldiers that fly into a rage if they are poked.

[Yogibear41]

Orog are looking pretty nice for 20 Str, 6 dex +4 Nat Armor, AC: 12 (14 with leather armor) and greatsword proficiency.

[Yogibear41]

I do like the idea of mindless soldiers that fly into a rage if they are poked.

Yes, but being constructs no moral bonuses therefore badger rage is useless.

[dextercorvia]

Yes, but being constructs no moral bonuses therefore badger rage is useless.

The SRD lists it as untyped. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/badger.htm)

[John Longarrow]

dextercorvia,
Silly person... Go Pixie for the flying... And it has a high enough dex to hit things!

Yogibear41
Most often you will want something with more than one HD. Somewhat more expensive but often definitely worth it. An effegy Green Hag is very lethal and can take a fair amount of damage. Plus toss it in any armor with no ACP and you are good to go.

Lower HD, even with high strength, don't take much to take out. They also don't work well against normal troops becauese they need to be controlled. They also go to pieces when facing fun things like skeletal ogres with great clubs.

[dextercorvia]

dextercorvia,
Silly person... Go Pixie for the flying... And it has a high enough dex to hit things!


Bah, you can tack unseelie fey on for that.

Nevermind, Effigy can't be applied to Fey.

[Yogibear41]

Yogibear41
Most often you will want something with more than one HD. Somewhat more expensive but often definitely worth it. An effegy Green Hag is very lethal and can take a fair amount of damage. Plus toss it in any armor with no ACP and you are good to go.

Lower HD, even with high strength, don't take much to take out. They also don't work well against normal troops becauese they need to be controlled. They also go to pieces when facing fun things like skeletal ogres with great clubs.

I can agree with pretty much all of this, but for what I was thinking of would be making ALOT of these things for war efforts, where it would essentially be them vs alot of 1st level commoners, warriors, and maybe a few 1st or 2nd level fighters, representing 90% of the enemy force. And with the Consrtuct Bonus HP of +20 for medium sized, vs only 5 hp per additional HD for something of this nature it seems better to make alot of 1 HD creatures than significantly less 3 or 4 HD creatures for only another 10 to 15 HP anyway.

Granted a 20 HD version could potentially be way more effective than the equivalent number of 1 HD monsters, sometimes larger numbers are just more effective for a variety of tasks at once.

There is also the potential of negating the 2,000 GP cost for each body using a combination of spells like Iron wall to create materials, leaving only 1,000 gp cost in supplies and 80xp to animate the 1 HD monsters.

[John Longarrow]

Yogibear41,
If you expect that most of the enemy will be 1HD, the Green Hag in a suit of masterwork armor will do you better than just a high strength 1HD effegy.

IIRC (away from books) the Hag in MW leather (or chain shirt) has an AC of 23-25. Even an orc with its +4 to hit shouldn't get may hits in with a great axe. Toss on the DR this 70hp construct gets and most orcs won't be able to survive long enough to make a difference.

Compair the same 1HD orc with a great axe to most 1HD constructs you can make. Orc would hit Orog 50% of the time and does 12.5 points of damage per hit. Two hits will probably take out a given construct. For the Hag (DR 5/-) that drop to 7.5 with a 5% hit chance. Means you need to hit 9 times with orcs to take it out.

Big difference is 4 orc attacs against an Orog = dead Orog. 180 attacks from the same orcs are required to drop the Hag.

This is only true for weak troops. However, if you are looking Humans without 2 handed weapons, the Hag gets even more dangerous.

Of course the Orog is weaker than the Hag and has a lower BAB, but both are dropping just about anything they hit with one shot.

I'd pay the extra for hags to crush low level armies. They also are effective against the adventurers/champions rolling around... :belkar: