RP Heavy Campaign, unsure of class.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Basically I'm in a rather big group and confirmed party members so far are...

1. Elf Wizard
2. Half-Elf Melee Rogue
3. Halfling Stealthy/Thieving Rogue
4. Human Ranger - Archer
5. Gnome Bard
6. Kenku Cloistered Cleric (Using Maximize Spell & Divine Metamagic for healing)
7-8. ???
9. ??? - And is also currently a maybe to join the campaign

And I'm unsure what to play as.
I was thinking Martial themed but I'm worried about a few things in that regard.

a) Being the only melee class other than a backstabbing rogue, I could be on my own often and killed quickly
b) It's an RP big campaign (or at least the players want it) so a combat themed character seems ill-fitted
c) My last campaign with them was a STR crazy Orc, so I'm trying to avoid a similar character/build this time around

I'm open to most build's/concept's atm, as long it matches with the back story below.

-Basically he was born a slave, his mother a slave and his father a slaver.
-His Mother died in giving birth so he was basically raised and forced to work by Slavers and other Slaves
-Wanting to be free he made a pact with the Devil (+2 Feats from Pact rules) to give him the power to be free, but this means once he died his soul is the devil's property.
-He banded the Slaves together and launched a rebellion
-Said Rebellion worked and he escaped

Now I can spin this one of two ways, an evil bastard who now wants revenge on the world. Or a character of good who seeks to spare others from such fates. The party is pretty evenly split between good and evil characters atm. So as long as it fits that back story and works with the classes listed above I'm open to any kind of advice/build. I just don't want it to be too optimized, some of the fellow members (mainly the new ones) have been complaining saying I have "less fun" by making a build first and then a character around it, acting as if their "character first, build second" approach instantly makes the game more fun to them.

And I'm a bit worried making a too OP character will just turn the new players off saying "You're breaking the game! Why not just be weak have fun like the rest of us!".

[Afgncaap5]

Well, you could always pick a story-nerfed character and build to that concept. Consider Inigo Montoya: he's the world's greatest swordsman (so great that his rank was said to be "wizard", a rank higher than grandmaster). He's still not a caster, but I wouldn't call him brutish by any means.

Obviously, the Duelist is a class meant to emulate people like Inigo Montoya. It's debatable whether or not the Duelist succeeded at that, but it's a class you could take and optimize like crazy without risk of it ever being *too* powerful.

Similar cases could be made for many other fun character ideas.

You could also try for some sort of support character and optimize that element of things. Not many melee options for support characters, but it's an option. It's a valid concern, though: too much optimization in a group that prefers RP might make everyone else feel like they're not contributing to the story/shining in the spotlight enough.

[almightycoma]

The first build that popped into head after reading that back story was cleric of whichever demon lord/ archduke of hell you sold your soul to. Then from there into prestige paladin (tyranny variant). It's mellee-y, but has magic so if you pick the right spells you will always be relevant.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Well, you could always pick a story-nerfed character and build to that concept. Consider Inigo Montoya: he's the world's greatest swordsman (so great that his rank was said to be "wizard", a rank higher than grandmaster). He's still not a caster, but I wouldn't call him brutish by any means.

Obviously, the Duelist is a class meant to emulate people like Inigo Montoya. It's debatable whether or not the Duelist succeeded at that, but it's a class you could take and optimize like crazy without risk of it ever being *too* powerful.

Similar cases could be made for many other fun character ideas.

You could also try for some sort of support character and optimize that element of things. Not many melee options for support characters, but it's an option. It's a valid concern, though: too much optimization in a group that prefers RP might make everyone else feel like they're not contributing to the story/shining in the spotlight enough.

I get the logic in something weak and then optimize.

But my bigger concern is finding a role that actually helps the group.
A support could help, but we got a Bard and a healing Cleric already.
So I'm not sure what could work. Maybe buffer? Maybe item creation?

[Gwazi Magnum]

The first build that popped into head after reading that back story was cleric of whichever demon lord/ archduke of hell you sold your soul to. Then from there into prestige paladin (tyranny variant). It's mellee-y, but has magic so if you pick the right spells you will always be relevant.

That's one thing I considered.

I was specifically looking at an evil Cleric that focused on self-buffing himself and then going into Bone Knight.
BAB bonus would be higher later on from Persistent Spell/Divine Metamagic Divine Power.

[icefractal]

It does seem like some tanking would be good there. But yeah - one lone tank with ten people - pretty dangerous. Ideas:

1) Be a tank (some mix of Cleric and Crusader, perhaps?), focus on defense. You can be pretty optimized on defense without stealing everyone's thunder. And you'll need to be, to do all the tanking by yourself.


2) Some kind of summoner, conjure up some meat shields. This could be a bit odd with the escaped slave thing though, making conjured stuff do your bidding.

If you're evil, you could summon fiendish stuff (that Conjurer ACF that gives you standard-action summoning would be handy) and just say that if devils own your soul anyway you're going to make them work for it.

If you want to be good aligned, you could be a Psion/Wilder, make Astral Constructs that look like yourself, and send them in, saying that you're metaphysically fighting your own battles. And ACs are mindless anyway, so it's not like you're oppressing anyone.


3) Oddball choice - Necromancer (Cleric or Dread Necro). Not necessarily evil. Be really devoted to the idea of an undead labor force as part of normal society. Say that people's squeamishness about such things is what lets evils like slavery happen. Again, going for the "wall of minions as tank" idea. Not sure if the rest of your party would want to hang out with such a person though, you should probably find that out first.

[Gwazi Magnum]

It does seem like some tanking would be good there. But yeah - one lone tank with ten people - pretty dangerous. Options:

1) Be a tank (Cleric with a bit of Crusader, perhaps?), focus on defense. You can be pretty optimized on defense without stealing everyone's thunder. And you'll need to be, to do all the tanking by yourself.


2) Some kind of summoner, conjure up some meat shields. This could be a bit odd with the escaped slave thing though, making conjured stuff do your bidding.

If you're evil, you could summon fiendish stuff (that Conjurer ACF that gives you standard-action summoning would be handy) and just say that if devils own your soul anyway you're going to make them work for it.

If you want to be good aligned, you could be a Psion/Wilder, make Astral Constructs that look like yourself, and send them in, saying that you're metaphysically fighting your own battles. And ACs are mindless anyway, so it's not like you're oppressing anyone.


3) Oddball choice - Necromancer (Cleric or Dread Necro). Not necessarily evil. Be really devoted to the idea of an undead labor force as part of normal society. Say that people's squeamishness about such things is what lets evils like slavery happen. Again, going for the "wall of minions as tank" idea. Not sure if the rest of your party would want to hang out with such a person though, you should probably find that out first.

The group basically placed an unofficial ban on summoners because combat will be slow enough as it is with 10 players.

As for tanks, I'm also worried that it will cause me to be too combat focused.
Combat focused in a group/campaign that's majority RP is basically begging to be bored.
Convenient for the other players, it makes combat easier for them... But it leaves me the tank with relatively little to do when we aren't smashing things.

[icefractal]

In some ways, I think a summoner is less of a slowdown in a large group than a small one. If there are three players, and one of them summons three creatures, that's twice as many actions. If there were ten players, it would only be 30% more. Also, if you keep your summoned actions simple (pick things with just one attack, have them charge straight in or hold position) then it's not bad.

That said, another method of defense without a tank is battlefield control. The Elf Wizard might already be doing this, but if he's more of a blaster, you could step up here, with a Wizard/Sorcerer/whatever.

[Chester]

The group basically placed an unofficial ban on summoners because combat will be slow enough as it is with 10 players.

As for tanks, I'm also worried that it will cause me to be too combat focused.
Combat focused in a group/campaign that's majority RP is basically begging to be bored.
Convenient for the other players, it makes combat easier for them... But it leaves me the tank with relatively little to do when we aren't smashing things.

That's too bad . . . Dread Necromancer is tons of fun to play; of course, nobody says you have to summon undead.

[Blackhawk748]

Well you could do a sort of Warlock Gish, those are pretty fun. And a Martial character can be a ton of fun in a RP heavy game, you are the guy who is constantly in armor at the party. If you think of most party scenes in fantasy movies there is usually at least one

Edit: also i ALWAYS second the Dread Necro, they are a lot of fun.

[Gwazi Magnum]

@Dread Necro: That's still summoning, or close enough.
Anything that adds unneeded turns to combat will be something that the group won't react well to.


In some ways, I think a summoner is less of a slowdown in a large group than a small one. If there are three players, and one of them summons three creatures, that's twice as many actions. If there were ten players, it would only be 30% more. Also, if you keep your summoned actions simple (pick things with just one attack, have them charge straight in or hold position) then it's not bad.

That said, another method of defense without a tank is battlefield control. The Elf Wizard might already be doing this, but if he's more of a blaster, you could step up here, with a Wizard/Sorcerer/whatever.

It's not a percentage issue, it's an overall issue.
We already have 10 PC's + DM's NPC's actions to account for, they don't want anything else on top of it.

The Elf Wizard is brand new to D&D mechanics, has roleplayed for a few years now and is actually pretty good at it. But in terms of mechanics of D&D he's brand new. So I'm not sure how well he'll pull of the spells yet. Not sure how relevant it is but I'll just say this now to make it a bit more clear. The person playing the Wizard is about 8 years old, everyone else in the campaign is 18+ but the person who is playing the Wizard is also very intelligent and mature for his age.


Well you could do a sort of Warlock Gish, those are pretty fun. And a Martial character can be a ton of fun in a RP heavy game, you are the guy who is constantly in armor at the party. If you think of most party scenes in fantasy movies there is usually at least one

Edit: also i ALWAYS second the Dread Necro, they are a lot of fun.

That basically becomes the main shtick though, the guy in armor. That would get tiresome pretty fast.
Especially when everyone else is using their skills, diplomacy, stealth, guile etc to accomplish tasks and I'm just standing there with little to do outside of swinging a sword.

[icefractal]

Had another thought:

Druid! Don't summon much - in fact, you could trade your Spontaneous Summoning out for something if there are any decent ACFs. Use your Animal Companion to tank - they're pretty durable when you put barding on them, and if it dies you get another in a week. Wildshape for defense instead of offense (something flying is handy) just so you can dump your physical stats. Druids have lots of battlefield control type spells, some good buffs as well (Mass Snakes Swiftness is awesome with a big team), and are decent socially (Diplomacy as a class skill, turn into a pigeon/rat for spying, dumping physical stats means leftover points for Charisma).

Also, if you did want to go Dread Necro you could just animate one big thing and ride around inside it, like an undead mech-suit, or just use it like you would an animal companion. No minion spam, great defense, and you can have a second one in a Portable Hole if the first one bites it.

Edit: Moved idea to this post, order was confusing.



That basically becomes the main shtick though, the guy in armor. That would get tiresome pretty fast.
Especially when everyone else is using their skills, diplomacy, stealth, guile etc to accomplish tasks and I'm just standing there with little to do outside of swinging a sword. If it's a Warlock Gish though (using Eldritch Glaive, presumably) then you're Charisma-based, which means you have as good skills as anyone (better, if you take that one invocation). And you have invocations, some of which are pretty socially handy.

However, IDK if a Warlock Gish is very good defensively. They tend to be "glass cannon" melee types.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Had another thought:

Druid! Don't summon much - in fact, you could trade your Spontaneous Summoning out for something if there are any decent ACFs. Use your Animal Companion to tank - they're pretty durable when you put barding on them, and if it dies you get another in a week. Wildshape for defense instead of offense (something flying is handy) just so you can dump your physical stats. Druids have lots of battlefield control type spells, some good buffs as well (Mass Snakes Swiftness is awesome with a big team), and are decent socially (Diplomacy as a class skill, turn into a pigeon/rat for spying, dumping physical stats means leftover points for Charisma).

Also, if you did want to go Dread Necro you could just animate one big thing and ride around inside it, like an undead mech-suit, or just use it like you would an animal companion. No minion spam, great defense, and you can have a second one in a Portable Hole if the first one bites it.

Edit: Moved idea to this post, order was confusing.

I can see the Druid working, but exactly how many buff/control spells do they have like that?

As for Dread Necromancer, maybe if it's just one undead.
But the class seems to be about buffing hordes, just seemed gimped if I just use one undead.

[Gwazi Magnum]

If it's a Warlock Gish though (using Eldritch Glaive, presumably) then you're Charisma-based, which means you have as good skills as anyone (better, if you take that one invocation). And you have invocations, some of which are pretty socially handy.

However, IDK if a Warlock Gish is very good defensively. They tend to be "glass cannon" melee types.

Glass Cannon melee's are even worse.

Because now they won't even do the job of covering the allies much at all. They simply run out and die because of the lack of melee support.

[icefractal]

Druids have quite a good list, actually, especially if you're using the environment books like Frostburn.

There's a handbook at http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1354.0, which has a list of their better spells.

[Blackhawk748]

Well Paladins have pretty solid social skills, iirc Knights do too, so you can still be the armored guy but have skills to back you up. Also both classes are quite durable

[Gwazi Magnum]

Druids have quite a good list, actually, especially if you're using the environment books like Frostburn.

There's a handbook at http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1354.0, which has a list of their better spells.

Thanks, I'll give it a look :)


Well Paladins have pretty solid social skills, iirc Knights do too, so you can still be the armored guy but have skills to back you up. Also both classes are quite durable

Minimal skills though. I'd have to focus on social and nothing else.
Even then the Bard out does me.

[firebrandtoluc]

There's no reason you can't be a tank and still roleplay. Just because you aren't good at diplomacy doesn't mean you can't speak. It just means that if you are trying to avoid a fight you are likely to fail. But then there is a fight! Every action hero is a role that you could play. Madmartigan in Willow is a good example of a fighter roleplaying. He isn't very good at disguise or diplomacy but he would still be awesome to play. Being bad at skills can be fantastic.

[Blackhawk748]

Ooooh, just thought of another. Barbarian. Seriously, look at Conan, look at that guy. He became a king and was insanely charismatic, also see Karsa Orlong.

[Gwazi Magnum]

There's no reason you can't be a tank and still roleplay. Just because you aren't good at diplomacy doesn't mean you can't speak. It just means that if you are trying to avoid a fight you are likely to fail. But then there is a fight! Every action hero is a role that you could play. Madmartigan in Willow is a good example of a fighter roleplaying. He isn't very good at disguise or diplomacy but he would still be awesome to play. Being bad at skills can be fantastic.

I've never watched Willow sadly. :(

If I fail the roll I can see it being funny.
But that could mean the party lacks time to try instead, or I accidentally trigger a trap, piss off a noble or something making things worse.

Also, why would a party let a person try a check instead of someone else if they know he's going to fail it?


Ooooh, just thought of another. Barbarian. Seriously, look at Conan, look at that guy. He became a king and was insanely charismatic, also see Karsa Orlong.

Not familiar with them sadly either. :(

[Blackhawk748]

Honestly, 90% or more of social interaction in DnD is RP interaction, as in no roll is necessary. Just have someone with ranks in Diplo do the introductions and then RP from there, youll be fine

[Thrudd]

In what way does choosing a melee class prevent you from roleplaying? You can put a good score on charisma and/or intelligence if you want, but even low charisma characters can participate in social situations, they just won't be the leader/face of the group.
Has the DM told you that there won't be much combat in this game? If not, I would assume there will be at least average amounts (it is D&D afterall). This party needs a couple strong melee/tank characters. If you are basing your decision on normal D&D teamwork for the typical game, go with a character with strong defense and melee ability.

Conversely, the party is shaping up as a low/light armor group who could potentially work for stealthy infiltration missions. Do what everyone else is doing, and make a character who doesn't wear much armor and has skills or spells good for sneaking around. A guy in heavy armor will ruin that whole plan. You all will just need to avoid head-on fights with strong enemies.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Honestly, 90% or more of social interaction in DnD is RP interaction, as in no roll is necessary. Just have someone with ranks in Diplo do the introductions and then RP from there, youll be fine

I mean skills in general though.
Stealth, Knowledge etc.

The more you focus on combat the less you focus on skills.
The more you focus on skills the less you focus on combat, which can be suicide if you're the only one out there.

[Gwazi Magnum]

In what way does choosing a melee class prevent you from roleplaying? You can put a good score on charisma and/or intelligence if you want, but even low charisma characters can participate in social situations, they just won't be the leader/face of the group.

My last post that this one Ninja'd answers this.


Has the DM told you that there won't be much combat in this game? If not, I would assume there will be at least average amounts (it is D&D afterall). This party needs a couple strong melee/tank characters. If you are basing your decision on normal D&D teamwork for the typical game, go with a character with strong defense and melee ability.

Conversely, the party is shaping up as a low/light armor group who could potentially work for stealthy infiltration missions. Do what everyone else is doing, and make a character who doesn't wear much armor and has skills or spells good for sneaking around. A guy in heavy armor will ruin that whole plan. You all will just need to avoid head-on fights with strong enemies.

The DM hasn't too strongly. But the players are building themselves to be in such situations.
And generally table tops have a way of the Players doing what they want, not following the DM's plans.

Besides, if the DM breaks this and forces too much on them he'll just kill the party (which is especially bad cause for his world cause he banned resurrection spells) and then either the campaign takes a total turn, or he just ended his own campaign.

The stealth part was also largely what I was thinking/trying to get at.
They're built to have a number of plots and plans that a heavy armor slow guy would ruin completely.

Then again the Wizard and Cleric aren't exactly stealthy themselves... :/

[Blackhawk748]

You could be a Thug Fighter? they get more skills but wear lighter armor. Personally my group uses a homebrewed Fighter ACF i made, you drop Heavy Armor Prof and Tower Shield Prof, and get two skills of your choice added to your list and two extra skills per level. You could run that by your DM, see if hes ok with it.

[Gwazi Magnum]

You could be a Thug Fighter? they get more skills but wear lighter armor. Personally my group uses a homebrewed Fighter ACF i made, you drop Heavy Armor Prof and Tower Shield Prof, and get two skills of your choice added to your list and two extra skills per level. You could run that by your DM, see if hes ok with it.

Thug still lacks stealth and the class skills are still limited to just lying and pick pocketing.

The Homebrew, maybe. But Generic Warrior with the University feat is basically the same thing.

[Thrudd]

The DM hasn't too strongly. But the players are building themselves to be in such situations.
And generally table tops have a way of the Players doing what they want, not following the DM's plans.

Besides, if the DM breaks this and forces too much on them he'll just kill the party (which is especially bad cause for his world he banned resurrection spells) and then either the campaign takes a total turn, or he just ended his own campaign.

The stealth part was also largely what I was thinking/trying to get at.
They're built to have a number of plots and plans than a heavy armor slow guy would ruin completely.

Then again the Wizard and Cleric aren't exactly stealthy themselves... :/

So by "heavy RP" you mean depending on skill use more than combat. When I hear "heavy RP", I think that means less dice rolling and more interpersonal drama and talking in-character. Any class of character with any abilities can work for that.

If this is a skill-heavy game where the group plans on stealthy missions, then pick a character appropriate for that.
The cloistered cleric and wizard may not have stealth skills, but they have spells and don't wear heavy armor, and should be able to move relatively quietly or act inconspicuously.

[Gwazi Magnum]

So by "heavy RP" you mean depending on skill use more than combat. When I hear "heavy RP", I think that means less dice rolling and more interpersonal drama and talking in-character. Any class of character with any abilities can work for that.

If this is a skill-heavy game where the group plans on stealthy missions, then pick a character appropriate for that.
The cloistered cleric and wizard may not have stealth skills, but they have spells and don't wear heavy armor, and should be able to move relatively quietly or act inconspicuously.

They tend to come hand in hand.

The more you roleplay the more you'll probably find yourself relying on skills and knowledge rather than how well you can swing an axe.

[Seerow]

What level is your party? How valuable are social skills in your group? In a heavy RP campaign social skills are either going to be your most valuable asset, or worthless to focus on, depending on the group. You mention the most valuable things will be knowledges/stealth; what sort of setting are you going to be in? What knowledge categories will be most useful? Are there any the group doesn't have covered? What level of stealth are you actually looking for? Just high dex/light armor, or a full on stealth specialist?

From the backstory perspective, what do you imagine the character having done as a slave? What sorts of powers can Devils grant in the campaign setting? Do they only grant feats, or do you want the character's class abilities being derived from this pact (ie a Warlock, Cleric of Destruction, Ur-Priest, etc)? You mention the character successfully led a rebellion, do you want this leadership capability represented in mechanics? Are we looking for a high charisma build with leadership? Or does that not need to be represented, and is just fluff (which comes back to how does your party handle social skills)?


Oh, and what kind of stat array do you have available to work with? Point buy? Rolling? A set array? How MAD of a character will you be able to support? Some builds are more MAD than others, but particularly in a heavy roleplay campaign all of your mental stats are much more important.

[Anlashok]

They aren't stealthy, but honestly Crusade and Warblade both sound like exactly what the campaign needs. They're tough in melee and have plenty of noncombat options while still being awesome in a fight anyways.

If you really need the stealth though... Factotum or beguiler honestly.

Spellthief and Ninja step on the Rogue's toes, Scout steps on the Ranger's, so I'd skip those.

Trying to save others from his fate and leading a successful rebellion all sounds very crusader-y though.

[Sith_Happens]

A party always has room for more Bards. Just find out what the Gnome is focusing on doing, and focus on something different.

[Gwazi Magnum]

What level is your party? How valuable are social skills in your group? In a heavy RP campaign social skills are either going to be your most valuable asset, or worthless to focus on, depending on the group. You mention the most valuable things will be knowledges/stealth; what sort of setting are you going to be in? What knowledge categories will be most useful? Are there any the group doesn't have covered? What level of stealth are you actually looking for? Just high dex/light armor, or a full on stealth specialist?

From the backstory perspective, what do you imagine the character having done as a slave? What sorts of powers can Devils grant in the campaign setting? Do they only grant feats, or do you want the character's class abilities being derived from this pact (ie a Warlock, Cleric of Destruction, Ur-Priest, etc)? You mention the character successfully led a rebellion, do you want this leadership capability represented in mechanics? Are we looking for a high charisma build with leadership? Or does that not need to be represented, and is just fluff (which comes back to how does your party handle social skills)?


Oh, and what kind of stat array do you have available to work with? Point buy? Rolling? A set array? How MAD of a character will you be able to support? Some builds are more MAD than others, but particularly in a heavy roleplay campaign all of your mental stats are much more important.

Level 1 atm.

Social skills seem decently valuable, some of these I can't answer so well though.
This DM has a tendency to try to fix what he thinks to be broken in D&D (Even though he admits many times his mechanic understandings are very limited) and not tell us how he's doing it. Partly cause he has no idea how yet, partly cause as the DM he doesn't want player Meta-gaming, and partly cause I think he wants to be able to DM fiat stuff and knows if he tells us his altered mechanics fully we can call him out on it when he does do that.

From what I do know though? I think the frequency is fully up to how often we as players choose to initiate it. But how it works is basically skill dependent. He recognizes that some players may just be bad at wording things but be playing a very well worded character so he won't be cruel cause you're bad at acting/expressing it. And on the flip side if you're very good with words as a player, but your Diplomacy roll is **** he may say something like "You accidentally insulted the King's wife".

With Knowledge and Stealth, that's more what Players are building around. Not anything the DM pushed them towards so I honestly can't say how often to expect to use it for sure. I'm assuming fairly often though since it's what the players seem to be building around and wanting to do. An exception to the Knowledge's though would be Knowledge (Arcana) and Spellcraft. Like mentioned above with the DM houseruling and not being totally open on how, he's trying to fix the Martial vs Magic issue by restricting what spells casters can use (Exception: Clerics or any caster whose spells are from their God's are unrestricted). The idea being that they have yet to be discovered and you either need to simply wait for them to be discovered or actively take part in the research.

I helped steer my party members away from more useless skills so they have most of the main ones covered. Several can stealth, at least one has high social skills and one has the majority of the knowledge skills. It's mainly crafting/profession and the physical skills like climb, jump, tumble etc. they've left alone. And that's largely cause I told them the skills were either:

a) Useless
b) Only useful at low levels cause you can buy better gear soon
c) Only useful at low levels cause spells can replace it

What stealth I'm looking for? I'm open to anything, but I'm leaning to more simply high dex/light armor with ranks in stealth skills so I have room to grow in other areas as well. I don't want to be too stealth dependent for when stealth isn't an option.

For backstory the slave labour is largely physical work I'm thinking. That or simple serving slave.
I felt earlier that more of an 'entertainment' slave would be realistic, but a decent amount of the members seem to dislike mature content being put in D&D (even though they seem to be thinking it's fine to drink in sessions now... mature content still bugs them :/) so I've been half avoiding that one even though I think it could work.

Powers? I'm open to either, I want to keep the bonus feats though cause I find concepts/builds I tend to like get feat heavy fast. So more feats is a huge lifesaver.
A high charisma could work for the back story, but I'm also fine with saying they're not a charismatic leader but they simply led that rebellion out of a necessity and they just happened to be the most competent slave in the bunch.

As for stat array we're doing 32 point buy.


They aren't stealthy, but honestly Crusade and Warblade both sound like exactly what the campaign needs. They're tough in melee and have plenty of noncombat options while still being awesome in a fight anyways.

If you really need the stealth though... Factotum or beguiler honestly.

Spellthief and Ninja step on the Rogue's toes, Scout steps on the Ranger's, so I'd skip those.

Trying to save others from his fate and leading a successful rebellion all sounds very crusader-y though.

Kind of, but they don't have much outside of Diplomacy and two Knowledge skills. And neither of them seem Charisma focused.

[Gwazi Magnum]

A party always has room for more Bards. Just find out what the Gnome is focusing on doing, and focus on something different.

The Bard is one of our new players. So he's going very traditional/basic bardic music.
I'm not really aware of 'different' ways though with the Bard. Just ways to buff like like dragonfire.

And if I did that I'd simply overshadow him, not compliment him.

[Seerow]

Honestly, pending answers to the questions I asked above (which could affect things wildly. After all what he's looking for was pretty loosely defined), I was actually going to recommend a melee focused Urban Ranger, with a dip into Shiba Protector (easier to do with the free feats from his backstory). High Wis/Dex (if have to choose one, Wis high), Moderate Int/Con/Cha, low strength.

Go human for the extra skill points and able learner. Sense Motive, Gather Information, Hide/Move Silently, Knowledge(Local) and Spot are all class skills, and then use able learner to pick up other social skills and knowledges cross class using skill points gained from Int/Human. You're now able to contribute meaningfully to social and stealth encounters, and have one useful high knowledge skill, and potentially several useful lower ones.

For combat utility, you're a melee ranger. Plenty of things you can do there. My main recommendation is the aforementioned Shiba Protector dip, it'll hurt your skill points for a level, but getting Wis to hit and damage as a bonus stacking with any other sources is a great deal. I would however recommend finding an ACF to trade out the animal companion, to avoid as much as possible stepping on the other ranger's toes (Ranger is the choice for being a full BAB frontliner with good skills, not to be the woodsman the other guy is probably going for). I'm also a fan of Mystic Ranger and the Moon-Guarded sub levels.


Edit: And ninja'd by the OP. Reading his post now.

Edit2: Okay it looks like what I suggested above should fit well with the group. It's a bit MAD for a 32 pt buy, but you can squeak by with a lower charisma and make up the difference with skill ranks. Having great perception/sense motive/stealth and some knowledges gives you a solid base to work from. For the above build I'd go with a layout of something like Str: 8, Dex: 16, Con: 14, Int: 14, Wis: 16, Cha: 8. You'll have 4 feats at level 1, I'd recommend Weapon Finesse, Able Learning + knock out 2 shiba protector prereqs (alertness, iron will), so you don't have to worry about it after that, plus they aren't totally out of character to have. You end up starting off at level 1 with 16 AC, 10 HP, saves of +4/+5/+5, and combat expertise; plus having the 6 skills I mentioned above maxed out, and 6 more sitting at max cross class ranks. Tons of out of combat utility, solid defenses, and moving on you can start picking up more offensive punch for in combat.

[Sith_Happens]

The Bard is one of our new players. So he's going very traditional/basic bardic music.
I'm not really aware of 'different' ways though with the Bard. Just ways to buff like like dragonfire.

And if I did that I'd simply overshadow him, not compliment him.

You could be a more castery and/or knowledgey Bard as opposed to a musicy one. Even on the music front, almost every Bard song has at least one ACF you can trade it for.

Also, DFI won't overshadow normal IC as long as you don't boost your bonus.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Honestly, pending answers to the questions I asked above (which could affect things wildly. After all what he's looking for was pretty loosely defined), I was actually going to recommend a melee focused Urban Ranger, with a dip into Shiba Protector (easier to do with the free feats from his backstory). High Wis/Dex (if have to choose one, Wis high), Moderate Int/Con/Cha, low strength.

Go human for the extra skill points and able learner. Sense Motive, Gather Information, Hide/Move Silently, Knowledge(Local) and Spot are all class skills, and then use able learner to pick up other social skills and knowledges cross class using skill points gained from Int/Human. You're now able to contribute meaningfully to social and stealth encounters, and have one useful high knowledge skill, and potentially several useful lower ones.

For combat utility, you're a melee ranger. Plenty of things you can do there. My main recommendation is the aforementioned Shiba Protector dip, it'll hurt your skill points for a level, but getting Wis to hit and damage as a bonus stacking with any other sources is a great deal. I would however recommend finding an ACF to trade out the animal companion, to avoid as much as possible stepping on the other ranger's toes (Ranger is the choice for being a full BAB frontliner with good skills, not to be the woodsman the other guy is probably going for). I'm also a fan of Mystic Ranger and the Moon-Guarded sub levels.


Edit: And ninja'd by the OP. Reading his post now.

Edit2: Okay it looks like what I suggested above should fit well with the group. It's a bit MAD for a 32 pt buy, but you can squeak by with a lower charisma and make up the difference with skill ranks. Having great perception/sense motive/stealth and some knowledges gives you a solid base to work from. For the above build I'd go with a layout of something like Str: 8, Dex: 16, Con: 14, Int: 14, Wis: 16, Cha: 8. You'll have 4 feats at level 1, I'd recommend Weapon Finesse, Able Learning + knock out 2 shiba protector prereqs (alertness, iron will), so you don't have to worry about it after that, plus they aren't totally out of character to have. You end up starting off at level 1 with 16 AC, 10 HP, saves of +4/+5/+5, and combat expertise; plus having the 6 skills I mentioned above maxed out, and 6 more sitting at max cross class ranks. Tons of out of combat utility, solid defenses, and moving on you can start picking up more offensive punch for in combat.

I can see such a build working.
Though what if I used Keen Intellect to reduce the MAD?

It lets me use Intelligence instead of Wisdom for Heal, Sense Motive, Spot, Survival and Will Saves.
Though this would mean it would no longer make sense to go into Shiba Protector. But it's 1 feat vs 3 feats and also reduces MAD.

Also for Ranger and Two Weapon Fighting I just want to confirm this is possible, but would a two handed weapon like a greatsword +spiked gauntlet's work?


You could be a more castery and/or knowledgey Bard as opposed to a musicy one. Even on the music front, almost every Bard song has at least one ACF you can trade it for.

Also, DFI won't overshadow normal IC as long as you don't boost your bonus.

If I'm just replacing music with other features why not just go a spell caster though? Or is this for the skill points?

[Seerow]

It lets me use Intelligence instead of Wisdom for Heal, Sense Motive, Spot, Survival and Will Saves.
Though this would mean it would no longer make sense to go into Shiba Protector. But it's 1 feat vs 3 feats and also reduces MAD.

Yeah you could go that way. In that case it may be worth a dip into swashbuckler for Int to damage (and you could eat the skill point loss for 3 levels since you can afford to spend more points into int, and have more skills overall)


Also for Ranger and Two Weapon Fighting I just want to confirm this is possible, but would a two handed weapon like a greatsword +spiked gauntlet's work?

Yes this works. But remember if you power attack with the greatsword, the spiked gauntlet's to-hit also drops, and gains no damage boost due to being light. Personally, I'd say if you go that route definitely go Mystic Ranger (assuming it's available). Also going with a two-handed weapon brings your MAD back by making you want more strength. You're probably better off sticking with a pair of light weapons if the goal is to reduce MAD.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Yeah you could go that way. In that case it may be worth a dip into swashbuckler for Int to damage (and you could eat the skill point loss for 3 levels since you can afford to spend more points into int, and have more skills overall)

I could see that working.
Though I'd have to pick which skill takes the fall.
Plus if we treat ranger class skills as cross-class during the swashbuckler levels that then makes keeping the skills up pretty challenging.


Yes this works. But remember if you power attack with the greatsword, the spiked gauntlet's to-hit also drops, and gains no damage boost due to being light. Personally, I'd say if you go that route definitely go Mystic Ranger (assuming it's available). Also going with a two-handed weapon brings your MAD back by making you want more strength. You're probably better off sticking with a pair of light weapons if the goal is to reduce MAD.

Good point. I won't go with the Greatsword then.
But I have to ask, why Mystic Ranger?

[Seerow]

I could see that working.
Though I'd have to pick which skill takes the fall.
Plus if we treat ranger class skills as cross-class during the swashbuckler levels that then makes keeping the skills up pretty challenging.

That's what the Able Learner feat is for. Cross Class skills only cost 1 rank to improve, so when you multiclass out you can keep your normal class skills all maxed out. So the cross class skills you were maxing out fall a little further behind, but your main core of skills should remain strong.




Good point. I won't go with the Greatsword then.
But I have to ask, why Mystic Ranger?

I was thinking that replaces your combat style, so would be a good option for a two handed fighter, and dropping the offhand gauntlet attacks. Just double checked and it only delays the combat style, and instead removes animal companion and some other stuff you don't care about. Which makes it something you probably want anyway (seriously the utility of getting those spells at a much earlier level is incredible, especially since you're starting at level 1. Add on Sword of the Arcane Order, and for the first 10 levels you can also contribute wizard levels of utility to the party, or self buff with the best of them).

[Gwazi Magnum]

That's what the Able Learner feat is for. Cross Class skills only cost 1 rank to improve, so when you multiclass out you can keep your normal class skills all maxed out. So the cross class skills you were maxing out fall a little further behind, but your main core of skills should remain strong.

Wouldn't the maximum be lower though still so they can't go as high? Forcing me to spend points elsewhere?


I was thinking that replaces your combat style, so would be a good option for a two handed fighter, and dropping the offhand gauntlet attacks. Just double checked and it only delays the combat style, and instead removes animal companion and some other stuff you don't care about. Which makes it something you probably want anyway (seriously the utility of getting those spells at a much earlier level is incredible, especially since you're starting at level 1. Add on Sword of the Arcane Order, and for the first 10 levels you can also contribute wizard levels of utility to the party, or self buff with the best of them).

Good point... O_O

Could I possibly get Practiced Spellcaster as well and effectively gain 4 wizard levels for spell effectiveness? :P
Also, would I technically know all the Wizard Spells? Because Ranger's don't get a "Spells Known" list normally and are normally assumed to know all their Ranger spells.

[Seerow]

Wouldn't the maximum be lower though still so they can't go as high? Forcing me to spend points elsewhere?


Kind of. Here's an example. You're a Human Ranger with 16 int. You get 10 skill points per level. You can invest 1 point per level into a class skill, or .5 per level into a cross class skill.

I originally suggested for your skill core to be: Sense Motive, Gather Information, Hide/Move Silently, Knowledge(Local) and Spot.

So at level 1, you have each of these 6 skills at 4 ranks, costing you 24 skill points. You still have 16 skill ranks left to spend on cross-class skills, which cap at 2 ranks each. So you pick 8 more cross class skills to max out. So some cross-class skills you are likely interested in:

Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate (rounding out your social skills). Tumble (extra mobility is always nice). Knowledge(pick any 4) to round out your selections.


So you end up with all of those skills at half the ranks of your core 6. You can also choose to trade out any 2 of them for 1 skill that is a class skill at max ranks. When you multiclass into Swashbuckler, you either drop 2 class skills, or 4 of the cross-class skills for those 3 levels, and then just pick them back up when you go back to Ranger.



Good point... O_O

Could I possibly get Practiced Spellcaster as well and effectively gain 4 wizard levels for spell effectiveness? :P
Also, would I technically know all the Wizard Spells? Because Ranger's don't get a "Spells Known" list normally and are normally assumed to know all their Ranger spells.

Practiced Spellcaster boosts caster level, not spells available, so it's not as effective as you are thinking. However, the feat is an excellent choice to take regardless, since you'll lose caster levels going into Swashbuckler.

As for spells known, Sword of the Arcane Order explicitly requires you to keep a spellbook for any Wizard spells you want to cast if I remember correctly.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Kind of. Here's an example. You're a Human Ranger with 16 int. You get 10 skill points per level. You can invest 1 point per level into a class skill, or .5 per level into a cross class skill.

I originally suggested for your skill core to be: Sense Motive, Gather Information, Hide/Move Silently, Knowledge(Local) and Spot.

So at level 1, you have each of these 6 skills at 4 ranks, costing you 24 skill points. You still have 16 skill ranks left to spend on cross-class skills, which cap at 2 ranks each. So you pick 8 more cross class skills to max out. So some cross-class skills you are likely interested in:

Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate (rounding out your social skills). Tumble (extra mobility is always nice). Knowledge(pick any 4) to round out your selections.


So you end up with all of those skills at half the ranks of your core 6. You can also choose to trade out any 2 of them for 1 skill that is a class skill at max ranks. When you multiclass into Swashbuckler, you either drop 2 class skills, or 4 of the cross-class skills for those 3 levels, and then just pick them back up when you go back to Ranger.

That still leave's me iffy though, cause my ranger skills will be maxed. Being cross-class now I can't do much with them from swashbuckler.
Meaning they'd be force invested into otherwise unwanted skills.



Practiced Spellcaster boosts caster level, not spells available, so it's not as effective as you are thinking. However, the feat is an excellent choice to take regardless, since you'll lose caster levels going into Swashbuckler.

As for spells known, Sword of the Arcane Order explicitly requires you to keep a spellbook for any Wizard spells you want to cast if I remember correctly.

I knew it didn't get me new spells available. I was thinking strictly in stuff like stronger fireballs.
But would it still work even with no swashbuckler levels for example?

Cause I get the appeal to Swash Buckler, but now it means less skill points & spells and it's turning into a tough sell. :/

I know about the spellbook, but does that mean I learn them as a wizard?
Or does it simply mean as long as the book is on me I have all the spells?

[Sith_Happens]

If I'm just replacing music with other features why not just go a spell caster though? Or is this for the skill points?

Usually the replacement feature is different music.

[Seerow]

That still leave's me iffy though, cause my ranger skills will be maxed. Being cross-class now I can't do much with them from swashbuckler.
Meaning they'd be force invested into otherwise unwanted skills.


Huh? No.

You would still be maxing out your primary skills while multi classed. Remember if you have a single level in a class that has the skill as a class skill, the maximum rank is your level +3. And Able Learner means the other penalty of cross classing (paying 2 skill ranks for 1 point) doesn't apply. So when you multiclass into Swashbuckler, you just keep maxing out the skills you want the most at no penalty, and leave off the skills that are lowest. It also lets you bring any swashbuckler skills you might want, like Tumble, Diplomacy, and Bluff, which you could then proceed to continue maxing out as though they were a class skill when you go back to Ranger. (with that last skill point per level going to alternating between a couple knowledge skills of your choice)


I knew it didn't get me new spells available. I was thinking strictly in stuff like stronger fireballs.
But would it still work even with no swashbuckler levels for example?

Ah. Yeah that is how it would help.

As for whether it would do you any good without Swashbuckler, that depends on your DM. RAW is Mystic Ranger, like regular ranger, has CL = 1/2 level, so Practiced Spellcaster is helpful in boosting your CL up even if you don't multiclass. General consensus as far as I know is the RAI is for it to get full caster level, and if your DM goes with that, then practiced spellcaster does nothing for you unless you multiclass.

As for Swashbuckler being a tough spell, just remember you need a source of bonus damage from somewhere if you want to melee as a TWFer. Getting Int and Dex to damage is a pretty nice deal, and will keep your damage relevant in a low op group. Spells will help with this, but I think it's worth it to either go for a Swashbuckler dip or Rogue dip (getting 1d6-2d6 of sneak attack and opening up craven as a source of bonus damage). Rogue gets you better skills and potentially damage, but costs you BAB and HP, and has more requirements to use the bonus damage.

Sticking straight Mystic Ranger lets you keep your skills more consistent, but you'll be relying very heavily on your Ranger buffs to make up the damage. Normally for Mystic Ranger I'd go for high strength instead of dex, trade out the combat style for something else if possible, and go the Two-Handed Power Attack route and take full advantage of the Wizard buffs. But I'm not sure how effective the Wizard/Ranger spells are at making Two Weapon Fighting viable without any outside bonus damage.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Huh? No.

You would still be maxing out your primary skills while multi classed. Remember if you have a single level in a class that has the skill as a class skill, the maximum rank is your level +3. And Able Learner means the other penalty of cross classing (paying 2 skill ranks for 1 point) doesn't apply. So when you multiclass into Swashbuckler, you just keep maxing out the skills you want the most at no penalty, and leave off the skills that are lowest. It also lets you bring any swashbuckler skills you might want, like Tumble, Diplomacy, and Bluff, which you could then proceed to continue maxing out as though they were a class skill when you go back to Ranger. (with that last skill point per level going to alternating between a couple knowledge skills of your choice)

Sounds like my DM made a mis-reading then. :)


Ah. Yeah that is how it would help.

As for whether it would do you any good without Swashbuckler, that depends on your DM. RAW is Mystic Ranger, like regular ranger, has CL = 1/2 level, so Practiced Spellcaster is helpful in boosting your CL up even if you don't multiclass. General consensus as far as I know is the RAI is for it to get full caster level, and if your DM goes with that, then practiced spellcaster does nothing for you unless you multiclass.

As for Swashbuckler being a tough spell, just remember you need a source of bonus damage from somewhere if you want to melee as a TWFer. Getting Int and Dex to damage is a pretty nice deal, and will keep your damage relevant in a low op group. Spells will help with this, but I think it's worth it to either go for a Swashbuckler dip or Rogue dip (getting 1d6-2d6 of sneak attack and opening up craven as a source of bonus damage). Rogue gets you better skills and potentially damage, but costs you BAB and HP, and has more requirements to use the bonus damage.

Sticking straight Mystic Ranger lets you keep your skills more consistent, but you'll be relying very heavily on your Ranger buffs to make up the damage. Normally for Mystic Ranger I'd go for high strength instead of dex, trade out the combat style for something else if possible, and go the Two-Handed Power Attack route and take full advantage of the Wizard buffs. But I'm not sure how effective the Wizard/Ranger spells are at making Two Weapon Fighting viable without any outside bonus damage.

Wait, how is DEX going to damage?

But I reread the Arcane feat and yea it seems 1 Ranger level = 1 caster level so practiced spell caster lost some usefulness.

I suppose you're right with swashbucklers extra damage being needed. But it will be a pain knowing that means I need to wait even longer to get Wizard spells on my Ranger. But it is something I'll have to do.

Thanks for the help! :)

Something else that just dawned on me though.

Could I just take 1 level in Factotum?
No skill point loss and all skills are class skills.

This gives me more spellcasting/ranger levels to work with.
Though I'd need to grab Font of Inspiration once or twice (maybe three times) so I keep up the damage boost for an entire fight.

[Seerow]

Wait, how is DEX going to damage?


You can pick up dex to damage via Shadow Blade. Though that is a 3 feat investment (martial study, martial stance, shadow blade), so may be too much to grab, but it'll still be cheaper than Factotum because...


Could I just take 1 level in Factotum?
No skill point loss and all skills are class skills.

This gives me more spellcasting/ranger levels to work with.
Though I'd need to grab Font of Inspiration once or twice (maybe three times) so I keep up the damage boost for an entire fight.


Cunning Insight requires 1 inspiration per roll, not per round. Even at low levels you're looking at 2 attacks a round, by the time you can have a few Font of Inspirations under your belt, you're looking at 3-5 attacks per round easily. You really don't want to rely on inspiration for your bonus damage.


You are right that giving up ranger casting progression is a rough trade for Swashbuckler, but remember Mystic Ranger plateaus at level 10, so unlike a Wizard even if you stray for a few levels you still end up with your top level spells available. Of course this will depend on how long the campaign will go on for/how high level you get to. Since it is RP heavy, you could probably skip the Swashbuckler and just deal with having pretty low damage output in combat, and be satisfied with having amazing out of combat utility.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Cunning Insight requires 1 inspiration per roll, not per round. Even at low levels you're looking at 2 attacks a round, by the time you can have a few Font of Inspirations under your belt, you're looking at 3-5 attacks per round easily. You really don't want to rely on inspiration for your bonus damage.

It is a bit steep :/

I could take a 1 level dip in swordsage though.
That would only make it need 1 feat.
Plus, if I took it to level 2 I could make an argument for the cardemine monk feat and add INT to AC.


You are right that giving up ranger casting progression is a rough trade for Swashbuckler, but remember Mystic Ranger plateaus at level 10, so unlike a Wizard even if you stray for a few levels you still end up with your top level spells available. Of course this will depend on how long the campaign will go on for/how high level you get to. Since it is RP heavy, you could probably skip the Swashbuckler and just deal with having pretty low damage output in combat, and be satisfied with having amazing out of combat utility.

Good point.
Considering that I think I'll just focus on getting to Ranger 10 first, and then grab the Swashbuckler levels and perhaps the swordsage levels.

[Toliudar]

Based on your backstory and your desire for melee with some versatility, I'd consider Binder, if Tome of Magic is an acceptable source. Whenever it seems likely that you'll be having to step to the front with your trusty spear, you bind one of the more melee-focused vestiges. And then in other situations, you've got tons of other options.

Plus, perfect fluff for "I've made deals with dark powers in order to get free and have my vengeance."

[lytokk]

I haven't read everyone else's posts yet, but I just wanted to say, this backstory to me screams paladin, of the LG variety. You sold your soul for a noble cause, to be free. And instead of just freeing yourself, you freed all of those slaves. Now that you know your soul is doomed to the fires of hell for all eternity, all you can do is make sure no one else needs to share that fate. You recieved the call from a sympathetic god, while they can't save your soul, they are going to give you the power to save others. You're adventuring with evil party members, so all you are doing is trying to redeem them, so that they don't share your fate.

[Telonius]

With a group that large, with that many skillmonkeys and bards - have you considered Outcast Champion (from Races of Destiny)? The prereqs are easy, it would fit very neatly into your backstory, double the bonuses for Aid Another, and give your allies bonuses to their physical skills when under half hitpoints. Full BAB, too, with 4+Int skillpoints.

[CommanderCronos]

I know a lot of people don't like them, but I think a Warlock would really suit the characters back story. Could be about him coming to terms with these powers he has been granted by this evil entity because he needed them and now that he is no longer a slave he has to get used to what he has signed up for.

You could use it to explore the kind of person he will become. Will he control these powers and use them for good, or will he allow the power inside him to grow and warp him into a tool for this devil that granted him these gifts?

could be interesting from an RP stand point.

[Shining Wrath]

Some Tome of Battle class, probably not Crusader due to your back story.

I think a Swordsage with appropriate choices of maneuvers can be pretty useful out of combat, you get lots of skill points, and the idea of a Spartacus type slave works - you are introspective, thoughtful, quiet, and freaking lethal if you have to fight. A guy who is coming to terms with the fate of his soul but not raging at the unfairness of it all. The Shadow Sun Ninja PrC, where you are struggling to balance light and dark, could work.

See, you *did* sell your soul, which is bad. But instead of just freeing yourself, you freed everyone. That's good. In a bloody way. Which is, perhaps, neutral or bad, depending on the choices you had available. Your character is conflicted between the devil, the influence of his father, and the tales other slaves told him of his mother, who was of course a wonderful person. Do you live up to your mother, or down to your father, or all the way down to your eventual master?

[Gwazi Magnum]

Based on your backstory and your desire for melee with some versatility, I'd consider Binder, if Tome of Magic is an acceptable source. Whenever it seems likely that you'll be having to step to the front with your trusty spear, you bind one of the more melee-focused vestiges. And then in other situations, you've got tons of other options.

Plus, perfect fluff for "I've made deals with dark powers in order to get free and have my vengeance."

Maybe, but when I looked at the class I found the Binds to be pretty weak. :/


I haven't read everyone else's posts yet, but I just wanted to say, this backstory to me screams paladin, of the LG variety. You sold your soul for a noble cause, to be free. And instead of just freeing yourself, you freed all of those slaves. Now that you know your soul is doomed to the fires of hell for all eternity, all you can do is make sure no one else needs to share that fate. You recieved the call from a sympathetic god, while they can't save your soul, they are going to give you the power to save others. You're adventuring with evil party members, so all you are doing is trying to redeem them, so that they don't share your fate.

I wish. The Devil Pact thing is an actual mechanic though which causes those who do it to become lawful evil.

"A Pact Certain contain language in which the mortal explicitly affirms allegiance to a Lord of Hell and promises to walk the paths of law and evil in exchange for whatever benefits are offered. Mortals signing such pacts immediately switch alignment to lawful evil, even if they have not previously take any actions of either a lawful or an evil nature". (Fiendish Codex II - Tyrants of the nine hell's pg.23)

So essentially my character agreed to be evil, but was more saying anything they could to get what they needed to get freedom. Technically mechanic wise I could still be a Paladin of Tyranny but I doubt that would work the same way.


With a group that large, with that many skillmonkeys and bards - have you considered Outcast Champion (from Races of Destiny)? The prereqs are easy, it would fit very neatly into your backstory, double the bonuses for Aid Another, and give your allies bonuses to their physical skills when under half hitpoints. Full BAB, too, with 4+Int skillpoints.

Something combat adept is probably needed.
Though Outcast Champion looks pretty tame, none of the bonuses reaching out to me in a "I want that" or "I could use this really well" sense.


I know a lot of people don't like them, but I think a Warlock would really suit the characters back story. Could be about him coming to terms with these powers he has been granted by this evil entity because he needed them and now that he is no longer a slave he has to get used to what he has signed up for.

You could use it to explore the kind of person he will become. Will he control these powers and use them for good, or will he allow the power inside him to grow and warp him into a tool for this devil that granted him these gifts?

could be interesting from an RP stand point.

That is extremely spell restricted :/
I see why it's being suggested though, but if I were to go that way I'd rather be a Wizard with fire, evil and devil spells.


Some Tome of Battle class, probably not Crusader due to your back story.

I think a Swordsage with appropriate choices of maneuvers can be pretty useful out of combat, you get lots of skill points, and the idea of a Spartacus type slave works - you are introspective, thoughtful, quiet, and freaking lethal if you have to fight. A guy who is coming to terms with the fate of his soul but not raging at the unfairness of it all. The Shadow Sun Ninja PrC, where you are struggling to balance light and dark, could work.

See, you *did* sell your soul, which is bad. But instead of just freeing yourself, you freed everyone. That's good. In a bloody way. Which is, perhaps, neutral or bad, depending on the choices you had available. Your character is conflicted between the devil, the influence of his father, and the tales other slaves told him of his mother, who was of course a wonderful person. Do you live up to your mother, or down to your father, or all the way down to your eventual master?

Swordsage is a class that I love to dip in it for Shadow Blade and AC. But is not something I ever find myself fully investing in if not making a monk like character.
But that may just be me not being so skilled with maneuvers.