Super Mega Ultra Generalist

[RavynsLand]

Was casually bickering with the DM last session, who was mentioning that Psions seemed to be the most OP class in 3.5. I countered that Wizards were technically superior, which ended up leading to a moment of...

http://bookriotcom.c.presscdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/challenge-accepted.jpg

So, next time I die/retire/make a character/whatever, I have to make a wizard and prove that an optimized mage can do anything anyone else can do, only better.

I wanna start off by taking Arcane Disciple (Healing) and Spontaneous Healing, so that said wizard (likely an Elven Generalist) can bust off cure spells like he was a cleric, and just scoff at all of the non-healing wizards.

But that doesn't cover everything. I also have to be a super badass in combat and a toolbox caster.

So, any suggestions for spells? What would you suggest for Spell Focus? What Metamagic feats should I take (besides the obvious Metamagic School Focus)? Any heritage feats? Chances are good I'll be getting at least one feat every odd level so I have a few to work with, and will probably roll a Grey Elf for the big fat intelligence.

[eggynack]

I'm a bit confused about how you got from the point A of wizards being better than psions to the point B of trying to do everything in existence. Shouldn't you just prove that you can outdo a psion in various ways? With that altered test in mind, what aspect of psions does your DM consider overpowered?

[RavynsLand]

I'm a bit confused about how you got from the point A of wizards being better than psions to the point B of trying to do everything in existence. Shouldn't you just prove that you can outdo a psion in various ways? With that altered test in mind, what aspect of psions does your DM consider overpowered?

Mostly their damage-dealing/insta-killing potential.

But if I can make a damage-pumping, super-useful wizard I can prove that magic is better than dumb psychic stuff. :D But I'll need insta-kills and high DC's and can't miss a single spellcasting level.

[Gwazi Magnum]

I'm currently looking this up myself for a possible concept, so my advice can only be limited.
But since you're going Gray Elf take the Elf Substitution level at Level 1. (http://marksworld.zeemer.com/files/Racial%20Substitution.html#10)

It gives you +1 Level 1 spell at first level and lest you learn one additional spell at each level.
Basically you gain an additional 20 spells by level 20.


I'm a bit confused about how you got from the point A of wizards being better than psions to the point B of trying to do everything in existence. Shouldn't you just prove that you can outdo a psion in various ways? With that altered test in mind, what aspect of psions does your DM consider overpowered?

I'm assuming it went something like

DM: Psions are so OP!
Player: I disagree, the Wizard is better. They can do better than the Psion, this is how. On top of that they can also do _______ & ________
DM: Oh really? Prove it!
Player: *Makes this topic*

[RavynsLand]

Was planning to take the elf substitution level (mentioned it I think) but thanks :D Yeah, an extra spell per level will definitely help me be more flexible.

[eggynack]

Mostly their damage-dealing/insta-killing potential.

But if I can make a damage-pumping, super-useful wizard I can prove that magic is better than dumb psychic stuff. :D But I'll need insta-kills and high DC's and can't miss a single spellcasting level.
Well, that's definitely a lot more specific than before. When building a blasting wizard, you usually want to start with an orb of fire, toss arcane thesis on it, and then pile on metamagic until the universe explodes. You usually want to start with searing spell, on the metamagic front, and add incantatrix to the build if you want to really break things. It's a technique that deals a pretty massive amount of damage, with incredibly high levels of consistency. You don't even have to mess around with save DC's, because the spell works off of a ranged touch attack. Meanwhile, it seems plausible from your description of events, though not definite, that your DM is making the classic error of thinking that you can augment a power such that it costs more than your manifester level. Because you can't.

[RavynsLand]

Well, that's definitely a lot more specific than before. When building a blasting wizard, you usually want to start with an orb of fire, toss arcane thesis on it, and then pile on metamagic until the universe explodes. You usually want to start with searing spell, on the metamagic front, and add incantatrix to the build if you want to really break things. It's a technique that deals a pretty massive amount of damage, with incredibly high levels of consistency. You don't even have to mess around with save DC's, because the spell works off of a ranged touch attack. Meanwhile, it seems plausible from your description of events, though not definite, that your DM is making the classic error of thinking that you can augment a power such that it costs more than your manifester level. Because you can't.

Nah she wasn't over-augmenting. We had an issue because we nearly TPK'd last session against a single 9th level psion who used Psychic Crush repeatedly with a nearly-unmakeably high DC.

I'll check out Arcane Thesis, it doesn't ring a bell so I may be missing something big.

[eggynack]

Nah she wasn't over-augmenting. We had an issue because we nearly TPK'd last session against a single 9th level psion who used Psychic Crush repeatedly with a nearly-unmakeably high DC.
How is the psion running a save DC that high? I mean, if all else fails, the wizard could just run something like baleful polymorph with a similar level of investment, and get a really similar result. The fact that the psion is starting out with a save DC that is 4 lower to start with means that this probably won't be all that hard to pull off.


I'll check out Arcane Thesis, it doesn't ring a bell so I may be missing something big.
It's a feat from the PHB II that lowers the level of a spell by one for each metamagic applied, with the ultimate metamagic adjustment bottoming out at a +0. It's the usual starting point for metamagic trickery, and the main thing that's often done with it is using +0 metamagic to mitigate the cost of other metamagic.

[RavynsLand]

How is the psion running a save DC that high? I mean, if all else fails, the wizard could just run something like baleful polymorph with a similar level of investment, and get a really similar result. The fact that the psion is starting out with a save DC that is 4 lower to start with means that this probably won't be all that hard to pull off.

Something from a Mongoose book I think. But yeah, the DC was like 28 I think.


It's a feat from the PHB II that lowers the level of a spell by one for each metamagic applied, with the ultimate metamagic adjustment bottoming out at a +0. It's the usual starting point for metamagic trickery, and the main thing that's often done with it is using +0 metamagic to mitigate the cost of other metamagic.

Eeeexcellent.

[slaydemons]

From what I gather, I could be wrong this is going off JaronK tier stuff that I know of. Psion and Wizard are both OP, its just Wizard has a bit easier time with doing it as he can eventually learn all the spells in the game while the psion has a number of powers learned.

[eggynack]

Something from a Mongoose book I think. But yeah, the DC was like 28 I think.

Mongoose books are 3rd party. If your DM wants to resolve this particular psion problem, he merely has to stick to official materials, because it's hardly the fault of WotC if someone else publishes imbalanced stuff.

[Necroticplague]

If you count STP erudite as psion (which it technically is, its a variant psions (making STP a variant of a variant)), then he's technically right, because those are even more borked then wizards. As for suggestions, Augment Summoning is good. Why fight when you can have minions do it for you?

Planar bind for a nightmare to astral project you quickly, then laugh when you finally "die". And remember, the astral self copies all your equipment, so using expensive consumable in astral form leaves the original intact. Combine with scrolls of Wish.

Control good chunk of the battlefield by sayering on Black Tendrils and Thick Fog, plus any others you feel like.

Use a lot of blast glyphs to turn any spare slots at end of day into extras for the day afterwards.

Pick up as many 'multitool' spell that can fill in for others or has broad effects (shadow spells, polymorph line, shapeable walls).

Use divinations to try and be as prepared as possible.
Take sword of the arcane order to effectively expand spells known to 'yes', and pay for higher spells with lower ones.Spontaneously.

Fast-track your way into casting classes by abusing Sanctum Spell, Precocious Apprentice, and Versatile Spellcaster.

[icefractal]

Psions can reach pretty high DCs legitimately though, because (for many powers) the DC scales with augmentation. And while augmentation can't go above manifester level, it can certainly go above character level.

For example, a 9th level Psion with Overchannel, Orange Ioun Stone (psionic version), and a Torc of Power Preservation can manifest a power up to 13PP, which gives the save DC of a 7th level spell. Add Greater Psionic Endowment, and you have another +2 DC.

Which means that a (rich) Grey Elf could in fact hit that DC 28 at 9th level, without any third party stuff.

[eggynack]

Psions can reach pretty high DCs legitimately though, because (for many powers) the DC scales with augmentation. And while augmentation can't go above manifester level, it can certainly go above character level.

For example, a 9th level Psion with Overchannel, Orange Ioun Stone (psionic version), and a Torc of Power Preservation can manifest a power up to 13PP, which gives the save DC of a 7th level spell. Add Greater Psionic Endowment, and you have another +2 DC.

Which means that a (rich) Grey Elf could in fact hit that DC 28 at 9th level, without any third party stuff.
Does augmenting modify power level? I'm pretty sure it does not, which means that you can't really alter the save DC by increasing ML. Psychic crush doesn't have the ability to have its saving throw augmented, after all. You probably can achieve these DC's with other powers, however.

[ryu]

How cheesed out is the enemy psion? Is it paying a spell to power Erudite to learn every spell and power in the game? If so your best bet is a wide range of abilities and a buttload of crafted contingencies.

[JeminiZero]

It is important to note that Wizards are tier 1, not because of their raw power (Sorcerers have much the same raw power, and are Tier 2), but because of their flexibility. Prepared Spells are strong because you can adapt to whatever situation is at hand. And this isn't JUST combat situations (although those certainly count), but also stuff like intelligence gathering, social intrigue, stealth/infiltration and the like. As far as Arcane vs Psionics go, Wizards are better at some things (like stealth and BFC), and Psions are better at some things (like Astral Constructs, and Senses). Psions also tend to be better at blasting stuff to bits, UNLESS the Wizard uses some rather extreme Tippy-esque tricks to apply free metamagic to their spells.

But I digress.

See if you can get this particular trick to work: Take Wizard up to level 5 before PrCing out. At level 5, swap your bonus feat for Spontaneous Divination [Complete Champion]. You can now spontanouesly cast any divination spell (edit: which you know). That's huge. For example, you don't have to prep see invisibility anymore. Anytime you suspect something invisible, you can say, convert glitterdust into see invis. (On a related note, Discern Shapechanger is useful anytime you suspect the damsel in distress you found in a dungeon is secretly a Succubus in disguise).

This next step gets [s]slightly very dubious: Look up the Versatile Spellcaster feat [RoTD]. It requires you to be able to spontaneous cast spells. Technically, with Spontaneous Divination, you qualify. Versatile Spellcaster allows you to cast "a spell you know", by sacrificing 2 spell slots one level below. Importantly, RAW does not specify that these must be spontaneous slots. So a a wizard could burn 2 level 1 slots to cast See Invis. But Versatile Spellcaster doesn't limit this to just spells that you can cast spontaneously, but spells you know, and by normal RAW, a wizard knows all his spells in his book.

And with 1 ACF and 1 feat, you've turned your wizard into a Sorcerer. Note that the DM might throw books at you for this.

[Alex12]

*snip*

I'd like to point out that the Complete Champion errata fixed Spontaneous Divination. It now reads "You can spontaneously cast any spell you know from the divination school by sacrificing a prepared spell of equal or greater level."

[icefractal]

Does augmenting modify power level? I'm pretty sure it does not, which means that you can't really alter the save DC by increasing ML. Psychic crush doesn't have the ability to have its saving throw augmented, after all. You probably can achieve these DC's with other powers, however.If you're using DSP material (technically 3rd party, but probably the leading source for Psionics and generally considered a lot more 'legit' than Mongoose stuff), then the Endowed Mind feat makes any power's DC scale that way.

Also, wow. Just read Psychic Crush, I'd forgotten how lousy it was. I guess for certain types of Psion it would be their earliest SoD, but bleh. Mind Thrust is arguably a better choice, and that's a 1st level power.

[eggynack]

Also, wow. Just read Psychic Crush, I'd forgotten how lousy it was. I guess for certain types of Psion it would be their earliest SoD, but bleh.
Yeah, it's pretty bad. You're hitting a bad save, poorly, with the end result of an enemy that's beaten but breathing. Psions can do a lot of really crazy things, but this just isn't one of them.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I'm shamelessly stealing a Biffoniacus_Furiou post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?242928-3-5-Wizard-Incantatrix-Initiate-of-the-Sevenfold-Veil-optimization&p=13219390&viewfull=1#post13219390), because it's a wizard who does mostly everything, including murderfacing enemies. Add in Arcane Disciple if you really want healing... but you could just buy a healing belt or max UMD and get some wands for that effect. The only thing I might change is to go Elven Generalist/Domain Wizard instead of conjurer/master specialist. Conjurer/Abrupt Jaunt lets you survive more easily at low levels, but the generalist is more useful at high levels. Also, this advice was specifically for someone who wanted to do Incantatrix/IotSV. I know this sounds weird, but you don't need IotSV if you don't want it. Incantatrix is the main driver of the tricks below.


Gray Elf or Fire Elf, Martial Wizard (Conjurer) 3/ Master Specialist 2/ Incantatrix 5/ IotSV 2 starting out. Max IotSV and then get more Incantatrix. If the game goes epic you just want to take Epic Incantatrix, Google can track it down for you.

Prohibited schools are Enchantment, Evocation, and Necromancy. I wouldn't use the Focused Specialist variant (CM) as you don't really want a fourth prohibited school. Use the Abrupt Jaunt ACF (PH2) and the Elf Wizard 3 racial substitution level (RotW). Subtract 3,000 gp from your starting funds and include in your backstory that you were trapped in the Otyugh Hole detailed in Complete Scoundrel for long enough to gain Iron Will without spending a feat on it. Take two flaws: Weak-Willed and Noncombatant. Take two traits: Passionate and Slow.

Feats should be Improved Initiative (Wizard 1 bonus), Spell Focus: Conjuration (1), Extend Spell (flaw), Spell Focus: Abjuration (flaw), Item Familiar (3), Skill Focus: Spellcraft (Master Specialist 1 bonus), Persistent Spell (Incantatrix 1 bonus), Obtain Familiar (CA, 6), Fell Drain Spell (LM, Incantatrix 4 bonus), Greater Spell Focus: Abjuration (9), and Extraordinary Spell Aim (CV, 12). Future feats should include Quicken Spell and maybe Chain Spell (CA).

Your familiar via Obtain Familiar is a Hummingbird, it uses the stats fora Thrush in the DMG and it gives a +4 bonus to Initiative, it's detailed in Dragon magazine 323. Your Elf Wizard 3 substitution level doubles that bonus, so it will give you +8 initiative instead.

You should start out Middle Age, put all three of your level up points into Int, and start with Int 18. Str, Wis, and Cha are your dump stats, you want a decent Dex and as high a Con score as possible.

Your Item Familiar should start as a Circlet of Intellect +2, for which you pay the full price of 4,000 gp. You can then upgrade it to be a Circlet of Rapid Casting (MIC) with a +6 Enhancement bonus to Intelligence, for a cost of 23,500 gp and 1,880 XP. Keep in mind that the Item Familiar gives you a 10% bonus to XP, so you can use Permanency on Arcane Sight, Tongues, See Invisibility, and Read Magic and still start with more XP than the rest of your party. You should always invest enough skill points into your Item Familiar for it to grant a bonus to Spellcraft equal to your max ranks, which considering your Int 30, +3 for Skill Focus and a +2 Synergy bonus, you'll be able to use Cooperative Metamagic and Metamagic Effect to add Persistent Spell to your current highest level spells by taking ten on the check at any given level. You should wear a scarf or bandanna on your head over your circlet, so opponents will have neither line of sight nor line of effect and cannot sunder, disarm, or slight of hand it. An item familiar is an intelligent item, which is considered a construct, and constructs remain functional in antimagic and dead magic areas and cannot be dispelled or disjoined like normal magic items, so there should be almost no risk of it getting lost or destroyed.

You can use Cooperative Metamagic and Metamagic Effect to add Persistent Spell to your buffs. Some may say that Cooperative Metamagic can't be used on your own spells due to the types of actions it takes, but action types only exist in combat during initiative so as long as you're not in combat you can take as long as you want doing it and it works fine. I'm sure there's a complete list of persistable buffs online, but a few must-have choices are as follows: Swift Expeditious Retreat, Shield, Swift Fly, Displacement, Magic Circle against Evil, Ray Deflection, Greater Invisibility, and Dragonsight. You should also include Antimagic Field among your persistent spells, and use Extraordinary Spell Aim to exclude yourself and your party members and familiar/companions from its effect. Per Rules Compendium an AMF does not block line of effect for spells or magic effects, so everyone can still be hit by spells from outside the AMF as though it wasn't there. However, any opponents within 10 ft. of you won't be able to cast or use supernatural or spell-like abilities, and they won't have any spell buffs or magic items active, so it should be well worth it. Other all-day buffs should include Heart of Air/Water/Earth/Fire (CM), Greater/Superior Resistance depending on what level spell slot you want to spend, Greater Mage Armor or even Greater Luminous Armor (BoED) if you're good-aligned, Greater Magic Weapon on your party members' weapons, etc. Note that you can use a (Lesser) Metamagic Rod of Extend on most of those, so the hour/level buffs last 24 hours and the 24 hour buffs can be continually active on two characters for one spell slot each day. Later on Mind Blank is absolutely necessary. You can also use Greater Shadow Evocation to mimic Contingency and have something like Ironguard on it.

Do the Shrink Item Tin Foil Hat trick to avoid opponents' AMFs. The Google should help you figure that one out.

Other items should definitely include a Necklace of Adaptation, preferably with an Enhancement bonus to Constitution added on, a Ring of Enduring Arcana (CM), a Ring of Freedom of Movement, a Third Eye: Clarity (MIC), and metamagic rods.

After you've buffed yourself each day, and shared all those buffs with your hummingbird familiar, you should use your remaining uses of Metamagic Effect and Cooperative Metamagic on as many Fell Drain Cloud of Knives (PH2) spells as possible, and share each of those with your familiar as well. Every round, you and your familiar will each be able to fire that many daggers without any effort at all, and each dagger that damages an opponent will deal a negative level. Note that due to your ESA AMF your equipment and spells will be excluded from the area of the AMF. Also keep in mind that opponents standing in the AMF will have their equipment rendered nonmagical, so even when their weapons are striking you they won't be magical weapons at the time and something like Ironguard or Starmantle (BoED) should protect you.

Use Spellcraft every time an opponent casts a spell, it doesn't take any action to do and you can look up what the spell does before you decide what to react with, because that's knowledge your character will have. Your Ray Deflection spell will automatically block any ranged touch attacks, your Greater Invisibility should prevent you from being targeted by most attacks and spells, your Displacement will help you avoid attacks from opponents who can see invis, you can fly all day long, summoned creatures and nongood extraplanar creatures will be kept at bay by your Magic Circle, and your IotSV Veils can be used to stop anything else that gets thrown at you. Against opponents who have obvious magical abilities (Beholders, Dragons, anyone with a spell component pouch or divine focus) you should move in to get them in your AMF as quickly as possible, and probably use a spell like Web or Black Tentacles to trap them in it while your daggers obliterate them. Don't forget you can use the Circlet of Rapid Casting for a swift-action Web or Glitterdust when necessary.

Check out a few Batman Wizard guides, and good luck!

[Coidzor]

As long as they're not a Spell to Power Psion who has used psychic chirugery (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicChirurgery.htm) to learn all spells and all powers from a Spell to Power Erudite (or done it the hard way), you should probably be able to manage. It's rather hard to beat a bigger wizard who has all of one's tricks and more along with infinite power points for infinite spells and powers without even having to make use of a fast-time demiplane.

A Spell to Power Erudite with all spells and all powers known would still give you a run for your money and largely devolve to the abilities of the people building and playing the respective characters, mind.

If this is just a garden variety Psion though... proper divination use is probably all you'd really need on top of good spell selection. :smallconfused:

[Mithril Leaf]

As long as they're not a Spell to Power Psion who has used psychic chirugery (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicChirurgery.htm) to learn all spells and all powers from a Spell to Power Erudite (or done it the hard way), you should probably be able to manage. It's rather hard to beat a bigger wizard who has all of one's tricks and more along with infinite power points for infinite spells and powers without even having to make use of a fast-time demiplane.

A Spell to Power Erudite with all spells and all powers known would still give you a run for your money and largely devolve to the abilities of the people building and playing the respective characters, mind.

If this is just a garden variety Psion though... proper divination use is probably all you'd really need on top of good spell selection. :smallconfused:

Of course the reverse is also true if playing the psion, all you need is a few seer powers and some nice SoDs/Blasts.

[Immabozo]

Mostly their damage-dealing/insta-killing potential.

But if I can make a damage-pumping, super-useful wizard I can prove that magic is better than dumb psychic stuff. :D But I'll need insta-kills and high DC's and can't miss a single spellcasting level.

Psions get time stop (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/temporalAcceleration.htm) as a level 6 power. That is pretty amazing. Granted you need to augment it to really get use out of it. But that is easily doable.


Nah she wasn't over-augmenting. We had an issue because we nearly TPK'd last session against a single 9th level psion who used Psychic Crush repeatedly with a nearly-unmakeably high DC.

I'll check out Arcane Thesis, it doesn't ring a bell so I may be missing something big.

A psion has a huge number of power points per day. If a DM is throwing one against you, it only has the one encounter that day and can thus use ALL of them, while a PC needs to budget for a full adventuring day. My point? Your DM is a ****.


If you count STP erudite as psion (which it technically is, its a variant psions (making STP a variant of a variant)), then he's technically right, because those are even more borked then wizards.

StP erudite is amazing. Far more broken than a wizard could ever hope to be. A level 9 Thrallherd with a StP erudite cohort and 8 other psionic thralls and metaconcert (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metaconcert.htm) is casting every single spell on every single list ever printed anywhere, both arcane and divine, plus psionics, plus any other form of magic, circumventing the StP Erudite's unique powers limitation, at +10 ML and +10 save DCs and easily 150+ PP that can infinitely be replenished. A level 18 ML, overchanneled to 21, can make metaconcert last for 21 minutes. Extended for 42 and extended once more for 84 minutes. and with an infinite recharge trick, doing it all day is no problem. In fact, doing it once more while you are already in metaconcert adds quite a bit onto the duration (and dispell checks) EDIT: OH, also does this all spontaneously

And then you have the metapower feats, the psi focus and such, for 10 characters and their 10 psicrystals to play with.

I laugh at your wizard. A good hearty laugh.

EDIT: And then you can take level 10 of Thrallherd and attract another high level thrall, who starts the same thing with your other thralls.


Does augmenting modify power level? I'm pretty sure it does not, which means that you can't really alter the save DC by increasing ML. Psychic crush doesn't have the ability to have its saving throw augmented, after all. You probably can achieve these DC's with other powers, however.

Augmenting only has the effects listed in the power's augmentation. Some powers get higher DCs for augmenting them, some dont. It all is listed in the power's entry