Is it worth it to take a level of wizard before going 19 levels of sorcerer?

[13ones]

So I have this idea for a character that I'm trying to make work and I'm wondering if a single level dip into wizard will make it stronger or weaker.

The concept of this character is an evocation based caster who slings spells like no one's business, supporting allies like artillery with dazing metamagics and the like. I'm wondering if it'd be worth taking one level of wizard at 1st level to get the admixture evocation school power to change the elemental type of my spells at will 3+int mod, which on my current build is +2 so I'd be able to use it 5 times per day, which would be more than enough for what I need to know.

It fits with the character back story as well. He exhibited natural magical talents, enough to be noticed by an Arch Mage to be trained. A disagreement with his master had him blowing up part of his wizard's tower and storming off, wizard training unfinished but sorcerer powers starting to manifest.

Is this a good idea? or would taking the elemental spell metamagic just make more sense?

[ScubaGoomba]

Have you considered Wordcasting (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/ultimateMagicWordsOfPower.html)? It's pretty great to have for a spontaneous caster and will allow a lot of flexibility.

Basically, every spell level has a handful of elemental "Effect Words (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/wordsOfPower/effectWords.html)" that deal increasing damage, which you can then modify with "Target Words (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/wordsOfPower/targetWords.html)." Say, for example, you pick Burning Flash as a First Level Effect Word. You can then cast it as any of the Target Word to determine how it interacts. One Effect Word essentially becomes a plethora of different spells in one.

The trade-off, of course, is that you still don't really have the same degree of flexibility that a one-level dip into Wizard would grant you. You're bound by the sorcerer's limited number of known Effect and Meta Words, which may make it a bit difficult to optimize.

[grarrrg]

Assuming you are going to reach level 20 then no. Sorc 20 capstone is VERY likely better than a handful of element damage changing.
Assuming you are only going to reach level 19 at best, then...maybe.

What Bloodline are you taking?
There are a few that let you change Elemental damage types with NO per-day limits.
Elemental (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-paizo/elemental-bloodline) Bloodline lets you choose your element (once chosen cannot be changed). And then there is one bloodline for each specific element (such as Marid (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-paizo/marid-bloodline) > Cold).

If you already have a bloodline picked out, there is always the option of going Crossblooded and getting two bloodlines worth of abilities, although this does come with some downsides. But even with the downsides, you are probably better off than losing your level 20 capstone.

[Akal Saris]

I wouldn't do it, honestly. You would be an extra caster level behind wizards than sorcerers normally are, so you will be getting challenge-appropriate spells quite late sometimes. Depends a bit on how quickly the party typically levels though.

[Kudaku]

Dipping sorcerer for a bloodline is an option for wizards, but the delayed progression is painful.
Dipping wizard for a sorcerer is very painful, since you're now even a level behind normal sorcerer progression.

If your character concept is mixing wizard and sorcerer... Have you considered the Arcanist? You can take exploits to pick up a bloodline or an arcane school. I think it might be a very good fit for your concept.

[13ones]

Is there a link to a full Arcanist page, similar to what you could see on the SRD? I've been looking but unable to find one.

[Kudaku]

Since the Advanced Class Guide hasn't been published yet I don't think the class has been uploaded to the PFSRD, but the playtest PDF can be downloaded here (http://paizo.com/products/btpy92zi?Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game-Advanced-Class-Guide-Playtest), and the class is legal for PFS gameplay, in case your GM cares about that.

I'm playing an arcanist in a S&S campaign at the moment and so far I find the class very enjoyable.

[13ones]

Just reading through the Arcanist now...wow...

Why would anyone play a Wizard or Sorcerer over this? Like it gets both a school and a blood line, spells that can be prepared daily but cast spontaneously... An INT based caster who uses Cha as well (which is always neat). Pretty much Grit point system/abilities.

Yes there are 'less' spells per day than a sorcerer but that is countered by the sheer power of everything else.

If Wizards, Clerics, and Druids are S rank classes, then Arcanist is a Special S Rank.

Jesus.

[OverdrivePrime]

Just reading through the Arcanist now...wow...

Why would anyone play a Wizard or Sorcerer over this? Like it gets both a school and a blood line, spells that can be prepared daily but cast spontaneously... An INT based caster who uses Cha as well (which is always neat). Pretty much Grit point system/abilities.

Yes there are 'less' spells per day than a sorcerer but that is countered by the sheer power of everything else.

If Wizards, Clerics, and Druids are S rank classes, then Arcanist is a Special S Rank.

Jesus.

That's my exact same feeling about the Arcanist. I know the pathfinder design team somehow thought that in 3rd edition, Wizards and Sorcerers didn't get enough good things, but the Arcanist - on its surface, anyway - seems ridiculously over the top.

[13ones]

Like is there actually a downside to that class at all? If there is I fail to see it.

(loss of a familiar is something but not something I'd lament over.)

[Roadie]

Like is there actually a downside to that class at all? If there is I fail to see it.

(loss of a familiar is something but not something I'd lament over.)

Less spells/day than wizard (once you count wizard school bonuses). Spell Tinkerer does mean effectively getting near-free Extend on your buff spells, though.

The single smallish pool of points (and one unadjusted by Int) also means getting much less in the way of special ability uses than a wizard or sorcerer, though I think strategic use of Consume Magic Items and Counterspell + Counter Drain would mostly negate that problem.


Dipping sorcerer for a bloodline is an option for wizards, but the delayed progression is painful.

Note that with good Cha you can get the juiciest bits of a sorcerer bloodline with Eldritch Heritage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/eldritch-heritage), Improved Eldritch Heritage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/improved-eldritch-heritage), and Greater Eldritch Heritage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/greater-eldritch-heritage), and it even scales based on character level instead of class level.

[OverdrivePrime]

Like is there actually a downside to that class at all? If there is I fail to see it.

(loss of a familiar is something but not something I'd lament over.)

I think Pathfinder's designers just figured, "Hey, it doesn't have full BAB, may as well keep stacking on the class abilities until we run out of room."

[Kudaku]

Just reading through the Arcanist now...wow...

Why would anyone play a Wizard or Sorcerer over this? Like it gets both a school and a blood line, spells that can be prepared daily but cast spontaneously... An INT based caster who uses Cha as well (which is always neat). Pretty much Grit point system/abilities.

Yes there are 'less' spells per day than a sorcerer but that is countered by the sheer power of everything else.

If Wizards, Clerics, and Druids are S rank classes, then Arcanist is a Special S Rank.

The Arcanist gets fewer spell per day than a specialist Wizard, learns spells a level later like the sorcerer, and if you want to take full advantage of the class mechanics you have to split your ability scores between charisma and intelligence which makes it more MAD than either of its parent classes.

If you use the extra spell racial FCO for sorcerers I think the sorcerer and the arcanist are more or less equal. If you're not playing a race that gets that favored class option, I think the sorcerer really struggles to stack up with the arcanist - that's more an issue with the sorcerer than with the arcanist though. Personally I'd like to see the sorcerer and the wizard on the same spell level progression (new spell level every odd level) with the arcanist lagging behind a level the way the sorcerer is now.

Also note that School Understanding/Bloodline development only earns you the level 1 school/line power - not the full range of powers. It's still really nice for a quick dip into the Orc bloodline and Admixture School for a blaster, for instance.

I think it's one of those classes that looks really, really powerful on paper but in practice isn't actually all that broken compared to its peers.

All that said, the arcanist play test discussion thread can be found here (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qel8?Arcanist-Discussion-Revised) and here (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qfth?Revised-Arcanist-Discussion). Unfortunately these threads have been closed since the play test has ended, but there's quite a bit of good discussion of the class mechanics and the power level of the class if you're interested in reading it.

[13ones]

So I've got another couple questions while you are all here.

So I've decided to just to a straight 20 levels of the Arcane Bloodline sorcerer.

Human is pretty obviously the best choice but since the Half-Orcs and Half-Elves get access to the Human feats, favoured class bonuses, and anything else related to them due to their type also counting as human is it possible to make something work with one of those two other races?

Like what would I need to sub out from a half-orc or a half-elf and add in from either their Human, Elven, or Orcish counter parts to make them more sorcerer-strong?

Also is the fast learner feat worth it? It lets me take both Favoured class bonuses for whatever class I take.

It effectively adds 3 skill points (levels 1-3 where the Sorcerer FCB would only add extra cantrips), extra spells known of lowest level (4-20) and an extra 20 hit points (levels 1-20)

[Kudaku]

Both Half-Orcs and Half-Elves make good sorcerers - indeed half-elf is probably better than human if you're willing to do the Paragon Surge cheese.

I'm not sure if I'm misunderstanding your sentence or if I've misread Fast Learner, but as far as I know you don't get all the favored class bonuses - you get to pick two instead of one.
So normally on level 1 you'd get either +1 HP, +1 Skill or +x racial favored class bonus. If you have the Fast Learner feat you could instead pick two of the three.

I'm assuming you'll take the extra spells from level 4 onwards so Fast Learner either means +1 HP/level or +1 skill rank/level. For HP it's basically Toughness, but the extra skill rank might come in handy. Depends on your build and if you need the extra skills really.

[13ones]

am I not able to switch my favoured class bonus between levels?

So like from level 1-3 I take both hit points and skill points, and then from level 4 on swap out the skill points for extra spells known and hit points.

Does that work or no?

[Kurald Galain]

(loss of a familiar is something but not something I'd lament over.)

That means it trades power for great flavor!!1!

[Bickerstaff]

am I not able to switch my favoured class bonus between levels?

So like from level 1-3 I take both hit points and skill points, and then from level 4 on swap out the skill points for extra spells known and hit points.

Does that work or no?

Totally works.

Also, if you're doing Arcane Bloodline as a Human, look into the Wildblooded (Sage) archetype. You now cast with Int as a Sorcerer! Hooray! Sage is very nice if you like skill points.

[Kudaku]

am I not able to switch my favoured class bonus between levels?

So like from level 1-3 I take both hit points and skill points, and then from level 4 on swap out the skill points for extra spells known and hit points.

Does that work or no?

That would work.

[13ones]

Totally works.

Also, if you're doing Arcane Bloodline as a Human, look into the Wildblooded (Sage) archetype. You now cast with Int as a Sorcerer! Hooray! Sage is very nice if you like skill points.

I do like skill points, but the Arcana for the Arcane bloodline is really important to my build.

And would the Arcana and level 9 power to one school also get buffed by spell perfection? If so I've got the best wombo-combo.

[andreww]

And would the Arcana and level 9 power to one school also get buffed by spell perfection? If so I've got the best wombo-combo.
No, spell perfection only doubles feat bonuses, school power does not count. It is still an incredibly good bloodline benefit.

[andreww]

So normally on level 1 you'd get either +1 HP, +1 Skill or +x racial favored class bonus. If you have the Fast Learner feat you could instead pick two of the three.

I am fairly sure that fast learner doesn't work like that. I believe you have to take either the +1sp and HP or just a single alternate FCB. I am pretty sure this was clarified in a FAQ recently. Fast Learner just isn't really worth it.

[Kudaku]

I am fairly sure that fast learner doesn't work like that. I believe you have to take either the +1sp and HP or just a single alternate FCB. I am pretty sure this was clarified in a FAQ recently. Fast Learner just isn't really worth it.

You are correct! I had to do a little bit of digging since this doesn't seem to be in the FAQ, but I found a post from Stephen on the topic here (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qdnd?Fast-Learner-What-exactly-are-our-options#49). Which kind of sucks :smallfrown:

[13ones]

So it'd just make more sense to get +20 hp over 20 levels from toughness then?

Darn, I liked the idea behind Fast Learning.

Stupid feat... *grumbles*

And since Spell Perfection doesn't improve school/blood line bonuses is there anything, outside of spell focus, that really helps pump up DCs? I've got a wicked plan for Spell perfected, Dazing, Persistent Ball Lightning.

[andreww]

And since Spell Perfection doesn't improve school/blood line bonuses is there anything, outside of spell focus, that really helps pump up DCs? I've got a wicked plan for Spell perfected, Dazing, Persistent Ball Lightning.
Honestly, what more do you need.

At level 15 when spell perfection comes on line you are looking at a casting stat of:

20base +6enhancement +3levels +2profane from succubus +1inherent from tome for 32. If you want to be cheesy you can add venerable for an extra +3 but lets not do that because it is cheesy.

Your spell DC will be: 10base +11casting stat +4spell level +4doubled spell focus +2school power for a starting point of 31 targetting reflex. You are forcing anything you hit to save twice and throwing out four mobile orbs of death.

Using this table (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/monsterCreation.html) average monster saves at CR15 are between 13 and 18. Reflex tends to be a poor save at higher levels, partly due to the number of dragons at higher CR's. But, even if you are looking at a high save of 18 they need to roll two 13+ to save. That is about an 84% chance of them failing the save, much worse if you direct more than one orb at them. CR18 are between 16 and 20 so our high save monster still needs to roll two 11's so is living with a 75% chance to be affected.

Given they will then have to continue to save each round even this basic level of bonus stacking creates persistent daze lock very easily. I recommend dropping Wall of Fire or your favourite pouncing barbarian on them to finish them off while they are unable to act.

If you do come across something with insane saves, say a succubus anti-paladin, then you can add in a limited wish first to impose a -7 penalty on their first save. You can also take a lot of UMD and give your familiar a wand of ill omen, that will force them to roll any one d20 twice and take the lower roll effectively forcing 4 saves against one orb.