Making casters good - at one thing

[Balor01]

Anyone not agreeing with caster nerfs can politely leave. For others, here is the question:

I do not mind casters being good at one thing, I do mind them being good at all things. So I am thinking what would be a good way to nerf casters to be good at one thing, but unable to jump on rogue/healing/dmg dealing wagon.

I am thinking of limiting casters on picking a single School of magic. What do you guys think?

Basically, the goal of this is to make casters be "special snowflakes" but not good at everything.

thanks

[commander panda]

sounds like an interesting idea, but i, personaly, think that might even be too harsh. i'd say let them choose a couple schools they can cast from (no more then half of them. quite probably less.) then let them specialize in one of them. possibly allowing two or three extra spell slots from that category, or increase caster level within that category, to drive home the specialization theme.

[sakuuya]

What about just using the Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, and Warmage? They seem like what you want (though Beguilers get both Enchantment and Illusion spells), and I bet there are good existing homebrews for other schools.

[FullStop]

Anyone not agreeing with caster nerfs can politely leave. For others, here is the question:

I do not mind casters being good at one thing, I do mind them being good at all things. So I am thinking what would be a good way to nerf casters to be good at one thing, but unable to jump on rogue/healing/dmg dealing wagon.

I am thinking of limiting casters on picking a single School of magic. What do you guys think?

Basically, the goal of this is to make casters be "special snowflakes" but not good at everything.

thanks

Too much. There's gonna be schools literally nobody ever picks because they'd find themselves in a situation where they're totally useless.

Though, actually...start with your idea. Add to that, however, that a spellcaster may prepare spells outside of her chosen school in a spell slot one spell level higher than the spell's listed level. Maybe also cap the number you can prepare outside your specialty per day.

[HammeredWharf]

It's been suggested a couple of times, but isn't a great fix, because one school is already good at almost everything (Conjuration) while several others would be underpowered (Enhancement, Illusion, Divination). Besides, one broken spell is often enough to end an encounter.

[pwykersotz]

What about just using the Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, and Warmage? They seem like what you want (though Beguilers get both Enchantment and Illusion spells), and I bet there are good existing homebrews for other schools.

This right here. Don't use entire schools wholecloth, create relevant spell lists for the role you envision, and use restrictive interpretations of Extra Spell and the like to prevent going outside of it.

[Kamin_Majere]

Yeah pretty much just removing Tier 1 and 2 from available options is a quick and easy way to deal with it.

Though with out nerfing its a lot easier to just talk with the players. I've played a wizard and took the best prestige classes though out a game, but I also limited myself by role playing and with meta gaming. I could solve most problems with insane magic tricky but whats the fun in that. Unless the party was getting destroyed I never had to do anything more than the odd evocation, conjuration, or illusion; if we ended up at the point of death or a TPK I could cheese it up a bit, but going nova was never really a risk because most adventures don't require ANYWHERE near that level of power to defeat.

I think TO has ruined casters (and players a lot of times) because people just assume that stuff should be a thing they should strive for. The game is about getting together with your friends and having a good time, and playing a TO wizard doesn't fit that at all because the only one having fun is the one player as everyone else (DM included) are just sitting there waiting to the wizard to rule the world... mine as well just write a book with your friends helping with "stuff the useless side kicks do while the main character does crap"

But yeah as to your question directly I'd say just ban tier 1-2 classes and enjoy, about the only thing you are missing at that point is a solid healer frame, and you could always give out heal sticks and the like regularly enough to cover that

[Fouredged Sword]

Conjuration needs fixing. Remove all the direct damage and put it in evocation.

Then, I would say yes, but port in the pathfinder system of 2 slots/spell for forbidden schools to allow some variety in ability. It makes casting non-favored schools hurt, but you can still prep mage armor if you are an abjurer.

[Saintsqc]

And what about forcing a spell-caster to be a focused specialist ? I know sorcerers aren't suppose to be focused specialist, but this can be changed.

[Eldan]

The problem is that some schools are far too diverse.

My personal approach was to group spells into thematically similar "Lores", you can see a few examples here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?233664-Arcane-Magic-Base-Class-and-System-Overhaul-WIP-PEACH) if you scrolls down a bit (ignore the rest of the changes, they aren't that important for this). Wizards can learn spells from any number of lores, but they have an overall limit on the number of spells they can know (which I think is important) and to learn a spell of a higher level, they need to learn a lower level spell of the same lore first (stolen from the ToB).

I think it works quite well in limiting them.

[John Longarrow]

One of the best ways to reduce Polymorph/Conjuration abuse is to either make some restrictions on what you can get/turn into OR put knowledge checks in place to see if the character knows about what ever they want to turn into.

If the character is ignorant on unicorns, don't let them summon one. If the character doesn't know about dragons, don't let them polymorph into one. This reduces a LOT of cheese. Its also very good even if you don't otherwise remove spells.

[eggynack]

This is a solution that has occasionally been brought up, and the main issue, massive school variance, is a constant factor. An evoker likely falls somewhere around tier 3 or 4, while a conjurer or transmuter likely lands in a pretty solid tier 2 slot. One possible solution to the solution that has been suggested is setting conjuration and transmutation aside aside, doing with them what you were proposing we do with all schools, and instead of isolating each other school, you group them in 2's. That gets you a more balanced breakdown. I don't remember the exact matching that was used, but I think evocation and abjuration were together, and that enchantment and illusion are often paired, so that would leave necromancy and divination, I suppose. It could also be something like enchantment/divination and illusion/necro, or some different arrangement entirely.

[HammeredWharf]

One of the best ways to reduce Polymorph/Conjuration abuse is to either make some restrictions on what you can get/turn into OR put knowledge checks in place to see if the character knows about what ever they want to turn into.

If the character is ignorant on unicorns, don't let them summon one. If the character doesn't know about dragons, don't let them polymorph into one. This reduces a LOT of cheese. Its also very good even if you don't otherwise remove spells.

This'll only annoy Sorcerers. Wizards have all Knowledges as class skills and plenty of Int.

[Baroknik]

I made a home brewed nerd in my campaign that seemed to work well. It's kind of a 2e feel, IMO. I'm on my phone so I can't go into too much detail, but here's a link to the basic idea:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?322323-Campaign-Specific-Wizard-Rework

[Eldan]

This is a solution that has occasionally been brought up, and the main issue, massive school variance, is a constant factor. An evoker likely falls somewhere around tier 3 or 4, while a conjurer or transmuter likely lands in a pretty solid tier 2 slot. One possible solution to the solution that has been suggested is setting conjuration and transmutation aside aside, doing with them what you were proposing we do with all schools, and instead of isolating each other school, you group them in 2's. That gets you a more balanced breakdown. I don't remember the exact matching that was used, but I think evocation and abjuration were together, and that enchantment and illusion are often paired, so that would leave necromancy and divination, I suppose. It could also be something like enchantment/divination and illusion/necro, or some different arrangement entirely.

Necromancy could just be eliminated as a school, splitting it between Evocation (those that use negative energy for damage, negative levels, etc.) and Conjuration (summoning the undead).

[eggynack]

Necromancy could just be eliminated as a school, splitting it between Evocation (those that use negative energy for damage, negative levels, etc.) and Conjuration (summoning the undead).
I don't see why you'd do it like that. Conjuration doesn't need the help, so you'd probably want to just put all of necromancy in evocation, leaving you with a new pairing. And I don't know that this would be the most efficient pairing. It also doesn't help that then you're presumably leaving another school on its lonesome for no good reason. Anyway, ignoring thematic coherence, I suspect that the balanced approach would look something like abjuration/enchantment, divination/evocation, and illusion/necromancy. That reflects my approximation of relative school power, after all. You'd probably want to get the thematic coherence angle in there, however.

[Red Fel]

Besides, one broken spell is often enough to end an encounter.

This. The problem isn't just that primary casters have access to many broken spells. The problem is that they have access to any.

Limit a caster to Transmutation? Shapechange (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shapechange.htm), break the encounter. Conjuration? Gate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm), break the encounter. Evocation? Miracle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/miracle.htm), break the encounter. Universal? Wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm), break the encounter. Divination? So sad, break the caster.

Point is, a master of one thing gets spells that are so powerful they can do anything. By analogy, imagine if I told a Fighter he could master a single weapon, and gain every single feat and ability with it, and he went on to use that weapon not only for combat, but for construction and demolitions, to do perform, diplomacy and intimidate checks, and to use the arcs and sweeps of the weapon to engrave runes across the sky that cause the end of the world. Primary casters who can do only one thing can do that. They can use that one thing to do anything.

Noble effort, but problem not solved.

[OldTrees1]

Use the Beguiler/Dread Necromancer/Warmage method. Have the player describe a narrow thematic focus and limit them to only spells within that focus. This is broader than most schools and avoids the school vs school imbalance.

[Kamin_Majere]

This. The problem isn't just that primary casters have access to many broken spells. The problem is that they have access to any.

Limit a caster to Transmutation? Shapechange (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shapechange.htm), break the encounter. Conjuration? Gate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm), break the encounter. Evocation? Miracle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/miracle.htm), break the encounter. Universal? Wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm), break the encounter. Divination? So sad, break the caster.

Point is, a master of one thing gets spells that are so powerful they can do anything. By analogy, imagine if I told a Fighter he could master a single weapon, and gain every single feat and ability with it, and he went on to use that weapon not only for combat, but for construction and demolitions, to do perform, diplomacy and intimidate checks, and to use the arcs and sweeps of the weapon to engrave runes across the sky that cause the end of the world. Primary casters who can do only one thing can do that. They can use that one thing to do anything.

Noble effort, but problem not solved.

But that goes back to my suggestion of just changing the players... what DM actually lets their players do most of that stuff? A once in a while use of those things is fine, but any player that starts spamming those spells should get shut down pretty hard, and any player that actually trys to break the game even if the first time they cast one of those spells pretty well deserves "big rocks from the sky you are dead" treatment.

Though alternatively you could just pull a Mystra and godly banhammer spells greater than level 7. It worked to balance magic for level 10-12 because mortals arent capable of dealing with power like that responsibility, so have the god/dess of magic realize after the first insane wizard tried to flood the universe with wish granting solars that spells over 7th were just to dangerous for mortals and rewrote the magical workings to keep them only usable by the gods.

Casters can still do some pretty broken things, but "most" of the universe shattering spells are now out of mortal reach. Give casters like an extra 2 spells levels 1-4 and an extra 1 spell level 5-7 and call it a day

[Telonius]

Individual game-breaking spells are definitely a problem, but they're a known problem. A quick search online will let you know what they are. Targeted nerfs are really the only way to fix that (even if there are a lot of them).

The problem that the OP is getting at is a separate (though related) one. Even if we removed Shapechange, Chain-Gate shenanigans, and the like, the Wizard is always going to have something in his bag of tricks to pull out and outshine most of the party, in most situations. Limiting versatility is one way to go about addressing that.

If you are thinking of limiting versatility, I'd echo what several other posters have said: don't go too far. An example of what happens when you do that is the Healer class. Pigeonholing a character into a single role, where they can only possibly do one thing ever, is not what a base class should be about.

One houserule I've heard of is to re-work school specialization. Have two specialized schools, where the Wizard can cast up to the usual level of spells. No prohibited schools. But for the schools you don't specialize in, they can only cast up to half the spell level. (You' probably want to take a hard look at Shadow Evocation and Shadow Conjuration if you did that). It does save the DM a bunch of work, trying to figure out an appropriate spell list out of hundreds (if not thousands) of possible spells available.

For other casters, same thing about gamebreaking spells applies. Target the worst offenders, then see if you still need to nerf anything after that. With Clerics, removing Divine Metamagic, and maybe changing Divine Power so it's only in the War domain (not the regular list), ought to bring it down to a more reasonable level. Druids could just use the PHB2 variant, and maybe look at some of their more versatile spells.

[eggynack]

Limit a caster to Transmutation? Shapechange (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shapechange.htm), break the encounter. Conjuration? Gate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm), break the encounter. Evocation? Miracle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/miracle.htm), break the encounter. Universal? Wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm), break the encounter. Divination? So sad, break the caster.
I don't think that this, this meaning 9th's and other very high level spells, should be the focus of the analysis. For one thing, they're known to be a particularly broken game element, and for another, they have almost no tier-relevance. Honestly, we can probably cordon off 9th's, and look at them at the end if necessary.

With that said, limiting a caster to just transmutation at low levels means something like the character having to break the encounter with nothing but enlarge person, alter self, and haste. They're very good spells, but I don't think they have that same magical confluence impact that something like shapechange does. Shapechange is all spells, after all, and alter self is mostly just alter self. It's the difference between being able to break all encounters, and maybe only being able to break some encounters, which is acceptable.

[Baroknik]

I don't see why you'd do it like that. Conjuration doesn't need the help, so you'd probably want to just put all of necromancy in evocation, leaving you with a new pairing. And I don't know that this would be the most efficient pairing. It also doesn't help that then you're presumably leaving another school on its lonesome for no good reason. Anyway, ignoring thematic coherence, I suspect that the balanced approach would look something like abjuration/enchantment, divination/evocation, and illusion/necromancy. That reflects my approximation of relative school power, after all. You'd probably want to get the thematic coherence angle in there, however.

The thematic/power balance I found that worked for my group was:

Transmutation/necromancy (manipulating the physical)
Enchantment/illusion (manipulate the mind)
Conjuration/evocation (manipulate energy)
Divination/abjuration (manipulate fate)

However, we also did things slightly differently from suggested. You could choose any one or two schools to cast from (plus universal at 1/2 CL). If you chose two of the above "related" schools you progressed both at 3/4 CL (and universal at 1/2). If the two schools were not related they both progressed at 1/2 CL. Universalists also existed that got full CL to learn universal and 1/2 towards one other school.
It wasn't bad to implement and it ended up with some interesting RP effects. Conj/evokers tended to be over-the-top power-thirsty, necro/transmuters were weird anti-social hermits, abj/diviners were fatalistic knights, and enc/illusionists were hedonistic narcissists.

Granted, not everyone of those things were true all the time, but it certainly colored the world pretty readily!

[John Longarrow]

This'll only annoy Sorcerers. Wizards have all Knowledges as class skills and plenty of Int.

True, how ever most wizards don't have max ranks in ALL knowledges. This cuts back on summoning multiple types of creatures for wizards. It also means a wizard needs to choose early if they want to specialize on grabbing different types of monsters.

It also means the DM can control what is summonable a lot easier.

[Fouredged Sword]

See, I make casters set their spell variables when they prepare the spells. At the start of the day you prepare summon bearded devil, not summon monster 5, and Polymorph into hydra, not just polymorph.

It means that wizards have to think ahead and plan what tools they will need. The open ended spells leave too much spontaneity for a prepared caster to pull the tool they need out of a hat.

[HammeredWharf]

But that goes back to my suggestion of just changing the players... what DM actually lets their players do most of that stuff? A once in a while use of those things is fine, but any player that starts spamming those spells should get shut down pretty hard, and any player that actually trys to break the game even if the first time they cast one of those spells pretty well deserves "big rocks from the sky you are dead" treatment.

Though alternatively you could just pull a Mystra and godly banhammer spells greater than level 7. It worked to balance magic for level 10-12 because mortals arent capable of dealing with power like that responsibility, so have the god/dess of magic realize after the first insane wizard tried to flood the universe with wish granting solars that spells over 7th were just to dangerous for mortals and rewrote the magical workings to keep them only usable by the gods.

Casters can still do some pretty broken things, but "most" of the universe shattering spells are now out of mortal reach. Give casters like an extra 2 spells levels 1-4 and an extra 1 spell level 5-7 and call it a day

You don't need broken level 9 spells to end encounters. There's plenty of encounter-ending spells on other levels, like Wall of Stone, Enervation, Orb of X, Black Tentacles, Glitterdust, Entangle, etc. Sure, they're not "I win" buttons, but they are "I'll probably win in a few rounds" buttons. They're what makes the class T1 all the way from lvl 1 to lvl 20.


True, how ever most wizards don't have max ranks in ALL knowledges.

Optimized Wizards tend to. A typical Wizard puts points in Concentration and Spellcraft, so he has his int modifier of skill points to put in other skills. Those skills are knowledges, Decipher Script, Profession and Craft. Of course, he'll choose knowledges and maybe a few ranks in Decipher Script. With a very moderate 18 int he can take Arcana, The Planes, Dungeoneering and Nature, leaving only undead and humanoids as forms he doesn't know much about. Knowledges are int-based and with Collector of Stories the Wizard can identify pretty much anything he wants, as long as he doesn't roll badly. Out of combat, he doesn't roll badly, because he takes 10.

[Kamin_Majere]

You don't need broken level 9 spells to end encounters. There's plenty of encounter-ending spells on other levels, like Wall of Stone, Enervation, Orb of X, Black Tentacles, Glitterdust, Entangle, etc. Sure, they're not "I win" buttons, but they are "I'll probably win in a few rounds" buttons. They're what makes the class T1 all the way from lvl 1 to lvl 20

Of course they can still end encounters with lower level spells, but insanity doesn't typically occur until they break the 8th/9th level spells. Winning encounters (is kinda the point of the fighting part of the game) is one thing, but actually ruining the entire game usually happens later with the highest level spells... assuming of course that the fore mentioned killer rocks from space isnt a known and understood threat.

Nothing is really going to take Wizards/Clerics/Druids/etc out of tier 1 unless you rewrite the entire class to be more in line with tier 3 classes. That's why the easiest thing would be to just ban tier 1 and 2 classes and be done with it. About the only thing you would need would be something besides the Healer as an actual frame to carry a character that could heal decently but still help out the party in other ways. Beguiler, Dread Necro, and Warmage are pretty much exactly what the OP is asking for, about the only thing needed would be classes focused on Conjuration and related spells and Abjuration and related spells, a lesser version of the Favored Soul, and some kinda weird druid like thing. With the right class features they would be a pretty good addition to tier 3 and would leave the tier 1 and 2 classes as the unknowable forces of nature that they are

[NichG]

My suggestion would be to discard _all_ spells in D&D and basically make lists that are highly constrained towards resolving particular types of things from the ground up. The thing is that the current spell lists are designed in mind to allow you to basically play any 'magic-using character' from any fantasy literature out there, all in one package. They're trying to retain certain abilities that are thematically associated with wizards, and since those abilities are themselves so varied and broad, you naturally tend to slip towards Tier 1.

On the other hand, if you rebuild magic from the ground up with a specific gameplay purpose in mind, you can avoid that particular pitfall. You don't necessarily even need to write a thousand new spells - just cherry pick the spells whose mechanics are fine as is towards your goals, and sprinkle in a good 10-20% mix of new ones that make the themes of each of the restricted lists more compelling.

Yes, this is a huge project. It's also one I've completed and run over the course of a year and a half long campaign before, and it does work - the most broken character in that campaign ended up being the Swordsage.

The first thing to do is to identify what precisely you want each flavor of caster to be good at, what non-caster niches you want to protect (e.g. forbid there from being any spells that accomplish those tasks directly), and then what 'being good at that' entails at, say, levels 1-4, 5-8, 9-12, 13-16, and 17-20.

For example, you could have a specific caster class dedicated towards mobility manipulation. Thematically, they represent someone for whom the relative positions and angles between things encode mystic knowledge that can be manipulated - a sort of geometer. They use this mystic ability to alter positioning and mobility of people by causing the flow of space itself to change. Since they are mostly a support caster, lacking very much direct offensive ability, their gimmick is that most of their abilities are automatically Mass versions. Also, since they have almost no offensive magic, they have reasonable hitpoints and 3/4 BAB.

Lv1-4 abilities: Increase the party's movement rates on grid-scale and overland scale. Apply buffs to the party's Jump and Climb skills. Penalize enemy movement rates, possibly forcibly redirecting enemy motion in some cases.

Lv5-8 abilities: Mess with 5ft step action economy, both on behalf of the party and to hinder the enemy. Mess with weapon reaches, attack ranges. Short-duration flight, alter the size of crawl spaces/things like that, spells that mess with ranged attacks. Spells that deny enemies particular mobility modes, possibly limited to certain areas of effect (e.g. no-fly zone). Short-range personal teleportation.

Lv9-12 abilities: Longer range personal/party teleportation. Grant obscure movement modes (incorporeality, burrow, etc). Mass rearrangement of enemy positions on the field, including dropping them from height (within 1d6 damage/CL types of limits). Immediate action 'return to caster' teleport for single allies. Battlefield effects that strongly restrict movement (equivalent of Solid Fog). Buff spells that allow someone to e.g. be in weapons reach of a target regardless of relative position on the battlefield.

Lv13-16 abilities: Mass immediate action teleport shenanigans, or buffs which allow the recipient to swift-action teleport. Battlefield effects that alter space in weird ways, such as creating a region where ranged effects simply do not work or temporary (line-of-sight limited) teleportation fields. Single target unwilling teleport could be their 'save or die' if you want.

Lv17-20 abilities: Permanent teleportation circles/wormholes, permanent zones of altered movement (can create 'highways'), spells that steal chunks of the landscape and put them elsewhere (city-teleport), buff spells that grant the equivalent of teleportation Spring Attack (your movement becomes teleportation and you can freely interleave your movement with other actions), etc.

[Red Fel]

Nothing is really going to take Wizards/Clerics/Druids/etc out of tier 1 unless you rewrite the entire class to be more in line with tier 3 classes. That's why the easiest thing would be to just ban tier 1 and 2 classes and be done with it. About the only thing you would need would be something besides the Healer as an actual frame to carry a character that could heal decently but still help out the party in other ways. Beguiler, Dread Necro, and Warmage are pretty much exactly what the OP is asking for, about the only thing needed would be classes focused on Conjuration and related spells and Abjuration and related spells, a lesser version of the Favored Soul, and some kinda weird druid like thing. With the right class features they would be a pretty good addition to tier 3 and would leave the tier 1 and 2 classes as the unknowable forces of nature that they are

And that's basically how I see it, too. Limiting casters to a single school means they can still (eventually) gain access to game-breaking power, and the ability to do anything better than anyone.

If the goal is to prevent game-breaking power, don't tiptoe around the issue. Take the spells that can completely circumvent the plot, ban them, and leave the rest of the class intact. Alternatively, limit casting to the Tier 3-type caster classes and be done with it.

But what the OP proposes, "limiting casters on picking a single School of magic" and "mak[ing] casters be 'special snowflakes' but not good at everything" isn't going to be achieved unless you ban the game-breakers. If you don't block those spells, casters are still good at everything; if you do, there's no point to single-school casting.

[Xerlith]

Grod_The_Giant made a bunch of fixed-list casters in spirit of the Dread Necro, Beguiler and Warmage. IMO they do a great job at doing what you want to achieve.

[Kamin_Majere]

Grod_The_Giant made a bunch of fixed-list casters in spirit of the Dread Necro, Beguiler and Warmage. IMO they do a great job at doing what you want to achieve.

Not to derail the thread much, but do you have a link by any chance, I would love to see one based around abjuration, as long as it could use Magic Missile I think I would be in love lol

[Kennisiou]

I'd suggest you take a look at Healer, Warmage, Wilder, Bard, Beguiler, and Dread Necro, as those all fit what you're talking about, and try to build classes like that. Generalists should be allowed to be flexible but not have the raw power or flexibilty within their field that non-generalists have, bard and wilder being a great example of that. Mostly I'd accomplish this by looking at magic in terms of schools and putting them together and making fixed list spontaneous casters based on those schools.

Groupings would probably be:

Enchantment, Illusion, Divination (basically the beguiler)
Evocation, Abjuration
Conjuration
Transmutation, Abjuration (yeah, this one's probably the strongest, so don't give it a ton of good abjuration effects, but the idea here is you want someone who changes things and sometimes that means changing things by healing them or protecting them)
Necromancy, Divination (only a few divination effects here as feel thematic -- throwing in some illusion or enchantment effects that cause fear may not be out of line either, nor would giving them phantasmal killer or weird)

If you want a "healer" class then make the Transmuter/abjurer have some class features that emphasize making healing spells better, in particular being able to occasionally swift action cast cure spells to make in-combat healing less of a bad trade in the action economy. That way healing spells aren't just going to be you healing less damage in an action than the enemy deals in the same action.

The conjurer should probably also get a little bit of transmutation, abjuration, or transmutation-like and abjuration-like class features that apply only to summoned creatures. Being able to buff the things you summon is probably a good feature for the class to have. You may want to narrow summoning spells here and maybe even make the conjurer one of the only non-spontaneous casters on the list (although if you do go with the idea of giving them class features to buff their summons those should be spontaneous, like once per day upon summoning a creature you may choose to enhance its stats or something). Summoning spells in general are very flexible and you may want to make it so they have a list of less flexible summoning spells that summon specific cases (ex: summon beast 1, summon aid 1, summon intellect 1 could all be various summon spells that break up the creatures from summon mon 1 and summon natrue's ally 1 into groups that fit specific themes so that they can't just have one spell that covers creating meatshields and various utility creatures). Additionally you'll probably want to mess with the conjurer's familiar and some other stuff like dread necro and healer have done to make their familiar appealing, since that's pretty thematic. Making a conjurer that's good and thematic without being overpowered would probably be the most challenging part of this.

If you find that there's any school that's lacking here, consider changes. Distributing divination spells accross some more casters than I suggested or even giving a number of them to all of the casters is probably not a bad idea, especially if your solution to the enchantment/illusion caster is to just use the beguiler as printed since they get basically no divination spells (maybe even actually none, can't recall off the top of my head). Thematically if you have a dedicated healer class having them use divination spells is not a bad idea at all, since it allows them to cover more utility bases that are often more worthwhile than just healing.

[Xerlith]

Not to derail the thread much, but do you have a link by any chance, I would love to see one based around abjuration, as long as it could use Magic Missile I think I would be in love lol

There you go. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?317861-Fixed-List-Caster-Project-(3-5)&p=16545265#post16545265) Also, someone did Magic Missile Mage in 20 levels not so far ago. As well as Abjurant Champion. The latter quite balanced, about the former I can't say much.

Also, there is Spellshaping (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?board=64.0), which is basically a new, ToB-esque subsystem with quasi-Warlock approach and quite robust and complex Eldan's rehaul. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?233664-Arcane-Magic-Base-Class-and-System-Overhaul-WIP-PEACH)

My favourite might very well be the Spellshaping for its simplicity and consistency, although it lends itself to very specialized, combat-focused approach.

[NoACWarrior]

Adding my 2cp, if I wanted to limit the t1 spellcasters to concentrating on a few core things I'd force all the t1 spellcasters to be more like the spirit shaman, with the ability to only choose 1-2 spells per level from which they can prepare from. It wouldn't solve the issue with the overpowered spells being selected, but at least if the wizard / druid / cleric were limited to 2 spells per spell level, it would become much more manageable to make encounters which aren't outright destroyed by the pure utility of the casters.

For Wizards I would allow only 1 non-specialized spell school spell per level and 1 specialized spell school spell per level to be prepared (multiple castings of each in their respective slots). For a generalist, they only get 1 spell per level.

For Druids, they would get two spells per level, but they can spontaneously convert to SNA.

For Clerics, they would get their domain spell and 1 other spell per level, but they can spontaneously convert to cure/inflict.

For Archivist, they would only get 1 cleric spell and 1 other divine spell per level.

For Artificers, they would emulate 2 arcane spells per level.

But what I'm saying is really harsh on the utility of spell casters, because without it they are just walking crossbow turrets. I won't implement this in my games, I believe that casters should be unfettered, with the players understanding that breaking the game has consequences, and the players themselves not choosing to go nova.

[Eldan]

[QUOTE=Xerlith;17355958 quite robust and complex Eldan's rehaul. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?233664-Arcane-Magic-Base-Class-and-System-Overhaul-WIP-PEACH).[/QUOTE]

I get warm fuzzy feelings whenever someone plugs my brew. Followed by much groaning and gnashing of teeth and desperate cries of "I had so many lore ideas I should add! And why haven't I written any prestige classes yet! And I haven't covered 90% of the SRD in the ritual section, nevermind the spell compendium!"

One day. One day.

[Balor01]

Tier 1 and 2 are out, problem solved.

[morkendi]

Make them be specailist, but not give the bonus spells and such. Let the players choose 2 schools to ban. Enforce the spell components listed on each spell. We didnt actually sepparate the items, we just bought or found enough to cast certain spell X amount of time. Now the caster has to watch supplies and limit things a little. Do away with the pouch that holds the unlimited supply of stuff. Make eschew spell components feat only work on chosen school. Make it encompass the entire school, ei the deviner doesn't need the the 100gp pearl to identify because he is so intune with divination, but others do. Now your casters are still able to do everything core, but brought down a notch.

[ArcaneGlyph]

Make them be focused specialists that prc into the master specialist class. That should ban a pile of schools. Just ban shadow evocation and conjuration to ensure conjuration doesn't overpower too much. Bar learning from opposed schools. Same usual rule: divination cannot be barred.

Other option is make them be Psions? They have a smaller spell selection to begin with.

[KorbeltheReader]

I'd be interested to hear how this works out, Balor. I've considered doing the same thing but often get pushback from my players about losing certain "archetypes."

[Red Fel]

Basically, I hear a lot of suggestions, but here's the thing.

Any suggestion that isn't either:

Ban tiers 1 and 2 Ban spells above level 7 Ban specific spells or create custom spell lists
Isn't actually addressing the problem of spellcasters being able to use an "I win" button on encounters or campaigns. Limiting them to one school will inconvenience, but not thwart them. Forcing them to track their components will be a bookkeeping nuisance, not a preventive measure. Throwing out classic casting and limiting it to Psionics won't stop powers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metamorphosisGreater.htm) that (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/realityRevision.htm) alter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicChirurgery.htm) gameplay (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindSwitchTrue.htm).

Getting rid of Tier 1 and 2 casting, or banning specific spells or creating custom lists, will fix the issue, because it is specific spells that allow casters to "do anything". It's not the fact that a Wizard is a Wizard, or the fact that he has access to many schools, or the fact that he has to have a certain amount of bat guano on his person at all times, that allows him to crack the game open like an overripe cantaloupe; it's the fact that he has access to certain spells which do this for him. Remove those spells - or any class with access to them - and you remove that quantity.

[Kennisiou]

Basically, I hear a lot of suggestions, but here's the thing.

Any suggestion that isn't either:

Ban tiers 1 and 2 Ban spells above level 7 Ban specific spells or create custom spell lists
Isn't actually addressing the problem of spellcasters being able to use an "I win" button on encounters or campaigns. Limiting them to one school will inconvenience, but not thwart them. Forcing them to track their components will be a bookkeeping nuisance, not a preventive measure. Throwing out classic casting and limiting it to Psionics won't stop powers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metamorphosisGreater.htm) that (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/realityRevision.htm) alter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicChirurgery.htm) gameplay (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindSwitchTrue.htm).

Getting rid of Tier 1 and 2 casting, or banning specific spells or creating custom lists, will fix the issue, because it is specific spells that allow casters to "do anything". It's not the fact that a Wizard is a Wizard, or the fact that he has access to many schools, or the fact that he has to have a certain amount of bat guano on his person at all times, that allows him to crack the game open like an overripe cantaloupe; it's the fact that he has access to certain spells which do this for him. Remove those spells - or any class with access to them - and you remove that quantity.

Agreed. I definitely should've been a lot clearer about what needed to be done to the "specialist" casters I suggested as well. A lot of spells definitely shouldn't exist or should be changed. Like...

No Shapechange, Gate, Planar Binding, Summon Monster, Summon Nature's Ally, Shivering Touch, Disjunction, Simulacrum, Ice Assassin, Genesis, Mindrape, Love's Pain to name a few (probably not enough). Get the summon spells divided into several different summoning spells, each holding only a small number of creatures (maybe even only just one) that only do a small number of things (definitely no summoning a genie with wishes -- so dumb). Gating/Planar Binding should be a class feature of conjurer that they get at high levels, not a spell, and it should require gp costs, skill rolls, and probably some roleplay specific elements. I feel like being able to call a powerful demon/angel to your aid is a thematic thing conjurers should be able to do, but it shouldn't work as easily as the spell does and it should cost more. It should also probably have limitations similar to leadership. Make you only able to have one creature gated/plane bound at a time, make it have a HD restriction like leadership, make it limited by more than just CL (a lot more). Make it so that if you want something really powerful you have to magically form a contract that has a huge cost. Sure, maybe you can get that massively powerful demon, but once his task is complete you immediately die and he has your soul. Maybe if you want the powerful angel's help you have to complete a quest for them first (or if it's needed immediately, must complete it afterwards or you die).

A number of lower-level spells should also probably have their level bumped up. Alter Self, Polymorph, Polymorph Any Object, Teleport, maybe even Scry should all be one to two levels higher for most classes. Silent Image maybe shouldn't even exist, bump ghost sound to l1 spell and then let minor image at level 2 be the first spell of the "image" line, so that you don't get access to a hugely powerful illusion effect at level one. It seems spell level 2 is a tad more appropriate for that. Presdidigitation, wish, and miracle should be removed or changed to be more narrow. Anyspell and greater anyspell should not appear on any spell lists (although it may be interesting to give them to a "generalist" caster who only gets access to, say, level 6 spells at the highest, to emphasize their flexibility). Color spray should probably be nerfed to not be as strong at early levels and maybe also boosted to be a bit stronger at later levels (but not much).

I'm probably missing a bunch, too. These are just the off the top of my head problem spells. I feel like there's probably a case for making a few of the stronger battlefield control effects a level or two higher (looking at you, web). A lot of buff spells should specifically target only allies that currently target anyone or the caster only. The idea of a self-buffing magical warrior is a fine concept, but it seems like a good idea to make it a prestige thing outside of duskblade.

[KorbeltheReader]

Basically, I hear a lot of suggestions, but here's the thing.

Any suggestion that isn't either:

Ban tiers 1 and 2 Ban spells above level 7 Ban specific spells or create custom spell lists
Isn't actually addressing the problem of spellcasters being able to use an "I win" button on encounters or campaigns. Limiting them to one school will inconvenience, but not thwart them. Forcing them to track their components will be a bookkeeping nuisance, not a preventive measure. Throwing out classic casting and limiting it to Psionics won't stop powers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metamorphosisGreater.htm) that (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/realityRevision.htm) alter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicChirurgery.htm) gameplay (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindSwitchTrue.htm).

Getting rid of Tier 1 and 2 casting, or banning specific spells or creating custom lists, will fix the issue, because it is specific spells that allow casters to "do anything". It's not the fact that a Wizard is a Wizard, or the fact that he has access to many schools, or the fact that he has to have a certain amount of bat guano on his person at all times, that allows him to crack the game open like an overripe cantaloupe; it's the fact that he has access to certain spells which do this for him. Remove those spells - or any class with access to them - and you remove that quantity.

This has me thinking that really we're talking about two discrete problems with high level spellcasting, basically the "tier 1" problem and the "tier 2" problem.

The tier 2 problem is what you're talking about: single spells that are so powerful that having access to them at all grants reality-altering, game-breaking power. Thus spells like shapechange or gate where a character who has access to them and nothing else can still screw up an entire adventure or even campaign.

The tier 1 problem is the problem of versatility, of casters having a whole array of spells that together perfectly answer any potential situation and do so better than supposed specialists in that situation. Here it's not so much about 1 spell being reality-altering as it is having a quiver full of awesome niche spells at the same time. Any particular spell is just as powerful whether cast by a wizard or a sorcerer; it's the fact that the wizard has so many different ones at once and can change them daily that makes him so much stronger.

The tier 2 problem I think can be dealt with by cherry-picking certain overpowered spells and excising them from spell lists. It would take quite a lot of nitpicking, but by doing so you could possibly end up dropping t2 classes far enough in power to make them t3. This won't significantly hurt the t1 casters though, because their power lies in having access to dozens of spells at once rather than a few choice ones. For them you need a solution that targets versatility, such as dramatically narrowing the list of spells available (or, of course, banning classes or spell levels entirely or something).

The problem here, though, is that in order to drop a wizard from t1 to t3, you probably have to do both things. That is, you have to cull the wizard spell list of OP spells, and then you have to go back and drastically restrict the wizard's versatility by restricting his schools or something. At that point, why not just ban him and use the specialist sorcerers (beguiler, DN, warmage, wilder)?

[Trasilor]

To 'fix' the wizard requires lots of work. I have seen it approached in one four ways:

1 - Ban the class. Choose one of the specialized sorcerer classes (Beguiler, Dread Necro, etc)
2 - Change their spell lists. From banning to hyper-specialization, it all revolves around fixing the spells
3 - Rewrite the class.
4 - Talk to your players about not breaking the game.

The first three require significant effort on the DM's part which option harder than its predecessor (i.e. option 2 is more work than option 1). The forth option is not only the most simple, it may get you want the most - players who don't go for the "I WIN" option every time.

Finally, even though the players have an "I WIN" option it is possible to work around them as a DM. Create encounters where they use the option successfully. But, in subsequent encounters - it becomes less useful, negated even. How? Well...pretend you are 7 and make it up :smallamused:

In a fantasy setting it is not unreasonable for every trick ever concieved by a player to have been conceived by an NPC in the past at some point. As such, these are 'known' tactics that have been countered.

In the real world, technology replaces magic. We invent new technology to bypass old technology. We don't just make a another gun. We make them shoot further, faster, with more accuracy using more deadly ammunition.

The sad thing is, game designers should have thought of this when designing spells. For every "I WIN" spell, their should be an appropriate counter.

[Telonius]

The problem here, though, is that in order to drop a wizard from t1 to t3, you probably have to do both things. That is, you have to cull the wizard spell list of OP spells, and then you have to go back and drastically restrict the wizard's versatility by restricting his schools or something. At that point, why not just ban him and use the specialist sorcerers (beguiler, DN, warmage, wilder)?

The biggest problem there is unintended consequences. Are there any iconic items that you really want to keep in your game, that would disappear because the spell required to create them no longer exists? If you're just using fixed-list casters, you'd have to go through and make sure one of them has the necessary spells on their list, or else your item accidentally goes poof. Even just mitigating the Tier 2 problem by getting rid of Gate, Wish, and Disjunction, you'd need to modify the requirements for Ring of Three Wishes, Luck Blade, Ring of Djinni Calling, Fortification armor, Rod of Cancellation, Candle of Invocation (though I wouldn't be sad to see that one go) ... and that's just items in the SRD, not even getting into the Magic Item Compendium. When magic items go away, mundane classes are generally hurt as much as (or more than) casters.

Doing something like restricting schools (either cutting off most schools altogether or using a much slower progression in non-specialized schools) avoids that problem by ensuring that somebody can make it or cast it, just not everybody.

[Red Fel]

The biggest problem there is unintended consequences. Are there any iconic items that you really want to keep in your game, that would disappear because the spell required to create them no longer exists? If you're just using fixed-list casters, you'd have to go through and make sure one of them has the necessary spells on their list, or else your item accidentally goes poof. Even just mitigating the Tier 2 problem by getting rid of Gate, Wish, and Disjunction, you'd need to modify the requirements for Ring of Three Wishes, Luck Blade, Ring of Djinni Calling, Fortification armor, Rod of Cancellation, Candle of Invocation (though I wouldn't be sad to see that one go) ... and that's just items in the SRD, not even getting into the Magic Item Compendium. When magic items go away, mundane classes are generally hurt as much as (or more than) casters.

Doing something like restricting schools (either cutting off most schools altogether or using a much slower progression in non-specialized schools) avoids that problem by ensuring that somebody can make it or cast it, just not everybody.

I have two issues with this point.

1. You seem to presume that the item cannot exist in the world because the PCs cannot cast the spells required to create it. This is a flawed presumption for two reasons. First, because it assumes that NPCs cannot take a class or learn a spell, and items cannot be made that require that spell, if PCs cannot learn it. Nothing is stopping NPCs, at the DM's decision, from taking various spells or class levels or crafting who-knows-what. Second, because it assumes, even if nobody in the setting has those class levels or spells, that the deities did not create these items, as they might relics, or that some lost civilization was unable to do so, as we find artifacts.

It is entirely possible, and even expected, for NPCs to have things off-limits for PCs, or for items to have been created by lost civilizations or deities. The latter would certainly make these items rare, but to be fair, if we're banning Wish and Gate and the like, it's hardly unreasonable to make items with similar effects difficult to obtain, at the least.

Or, to put it simply: "You guys can't cast those spells. There may or may not, at my discretion, be items in the world made from those spells. There may or may not, at my discretion, be NPCs who can use those spells. Any questions?"

2. Restricting schools to make sure that "somebody, just not everybody" can do it doesn't solve the problem at all. The problem isn't that "somebody, just not everybody" can cast a game-breaking spell, the problem is that a PC can do it. Restricting schools doesn't prevent the PCs from learning game-breaking spells, it simply bars them from learning all of the game-breaking spells. They don't need all of them - one is sufficient.

[Telonius]

1 - Yes, I do make that assumption. If an NPC can (potentially) do something, I think a PC should be able to as well, if it makes the necessary trade-offs. I don't like having one set of rules for the PCs and a different one for the NPCs. That's just my preference; it's certainly not the only style out there.

2 - Agreed, but that's why I said that the requirements for those items needed to be modified (if they're going to exist at all), even if we just get rid of the game-breakers. I haven't cross-referenced the spell lists for Warmage, Beguiler & co. to see if you'd still be able to have Feather Tokens or Bags of Holding or a half-dozen other popular magic items; my point is that it would be a massive pain in the butt to do that for everything.

[NichG]

There's no reason to go through and updates the prerequisites for items, because that information tends to only matter rarely. Update them when and if your players want to make them, or decide they don't exist when the first opportunity comes up in game for them to exist. Its not a big deal.

[KorbeltheReader]

I agree with Telonius that there would be unintended consequences to banning OP spells. The problem is that Red Fel is also right: just one OP spell make a character OP. It doesn't really matter if one class or four can cast it. I'd rather ban the spells and deal with the consequences as they come, as NichG suggests.

If you want to restrict spell access by restricting wizards to certain schools, by the way, you could mitigate the problem of conjuration and transmutation being extra potent by further subdividing them. Conjuration even has rather clean subschools that would help you along (summoning, creation, teleportation).

This is still a lot of work, though. Personally, I still think the cleanest, most effective answer is just banning all of the t1 classes and banning the worst offending spells for the t2 classes. Adding the sorcerer to the banned classes list has the added advantage of making the warmage more appealing by the absence of his obviously superior competitor.

[NichG]

Alternately, just make it so that magic items do not require prerequisite spells to craft, but instead require a sufficiently high Knowledge(Arcana) skill rank or something like that. Generalize it - the Arcana skill rank necessary is equal to the minimum caster level of the item plus the highest spell level of the original component spells.

[OldTrees1]

Telonius is right that there would be unintended consequences to banning OP spells.

However the simple solution is changing the crafting requirements for the items that you want to keep.